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Merchantigus Minmatar Riot Zone	Posted - 2006.12.04 09:00:00 - [1] Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 09:09:55 low sec. The reason there are so many pirates is because there is so much easy prey. fight back and the noobs will find something else to do if the easy money dries up. 1. dont go out mining alone. 2 noobs in frigs are enough to run off/escape most pirates 2. dont run around ratting with only one type of resist/dmg type. There are so many ways to foil a pirate in low sec yet none of them are done. then you all come on the forums and whine about it. it's amazing. "if you don't wanna to get **ed on move cha out tha way!" simple as that to the people whining about it being empty: yep. you noobed all the fish to death. sure it's their own fault but our food supply has been hunted to non existance. after you get your feet on the ground move to .0 and stop being a ***. The reason jita is so clogged is because it's the only place to get things. you think i and many others enjoy running to jita all the time? you dont think we'd much rather pay more to get it all in one spot and not have to jump halfway across the universe? ffs spread it out youselves. one man in a frieghter could not only make a large fortune but also make a large dint in the jita problem. and that's just one person. at the very least i have to make 8 jumps just to get a ship then i have to make 15 more running around gathering stuff up. if it was all in one place a few jumps away do you not think people would be willing to pay more for it? add that into how cheap things are in jita and you just got yourself a fortune. Eve is all about the players. eve is what YOU not ccp makes of it. whinning and whinning for artificial controls to counter stupidity is not the way to do it. it's your sandbox make a footprint and change it yourself. What makes eve eve is this freedom and the more people whine it out of existance the less of a soul it has. If there is a counter no adjustment is needed. there are plenty of very simple counters. it's not ccps fault you wont do them. Eve is one of the few places left on this earth where the laws of nature apply to humans. if whinners somehow destroy that be... well there aren't words. Eve is a sandbox full of ants. you guys are like "wHAaaa the cookies is all in one place i do likes it!". sooo move the damn cookies yourself? when even ants are outsmarting you it's never a good sign
Tachy	Posted - 2006.12.04 09:06:00 - [2] Why do you open another thread to the same topic without any new insight? Your assumptions are still flawed on all accounts. --==*-- The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait \| 2006.09.20
Ishana Minmatar The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.04 09:09:00 - [3] Have you ever been a victim of a pirate? Because it sounds to me you never even have been out of high sec space tbh. 2 noobs in frigs enough to run off/escape most pirates? lol I'd like to see that. Most of the pirates i know are old veterans with 20+ mil skillpoints that are tired from the broken 0.0 parts of the game, and moved to low sec to have fun again. Even if we "noob" all the fish out of low sec, it will just be our own private little part of space, don't worry about us, really. Moving to 0.0 like you suggest is excactly what most of us don't want, because 0.0 is broken and not fun, believe me I've been there. (lived there for over a year) _________________________________________________________
Merchantigus Minmatar Riot Zone	Posted - 2006.12.04 09:15:00 - [4] Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 09:28:45 "Have you ever been a victim of a pirate? Because it sounds to me you never even have been out of high sec space tbh." Sure hoss "2 noobs in frigs enough to run off/escape most pirates? lol I'd like to see that." Should of been there it was great to watch and if you arent an idiot it's very easy to do "Most of the pirates i know are old veterans with 20+ mil skillpoints that are tired from the broken 0.0 parts of the game," lol once again sure hoss. i see so many of those while i'm out hunting. "and moved to low sec to have fun again. Even if we "noob" all the fish out of low sec, it will just be our own private little part of space, don't worry about us, really. Moving to 0.0 like you suggest is excactly what most of us don't want, because 0.0 is broken and not fun, believe me I've been there. (lived there for over a year)" if you can assume i've never left high sec i can assume you went to .0 once and got podded over and over. thus decided it's broken. If you actually did live out there i'll assume your little corp full of ***** got your asses handed to you over and over and you ran away screaming like little girls. "Why do you open another thread to the same topic without any new insight?" because this is my thread stating my views about the topics that keep popping up in every single post people make? atleast now people can fight about it all in one place and stop hijaking every other post. and as i've not put all this together before i'd have to say it's new insight Your assumptions are still flawed on all accounts" Good to know. personally i think your assumptions are flawed as well. thus the post. another fine reason for this post. the ops ideas in most of the others are so horrid it makes my brain bleed. Atleast if they read this op they wont lose any brain cells in the process
Ishana Minmatar The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.04 09:31:00 - [5] Edited by: Ishana on 04/12/2006 09:31:32 Well I invite you to the Mito constelation then, don't worry about the trip back, you'll be in your cloing station soon enough. _________________________________________________________
Merchantigus Minmatar Riot Zone	Posted - 2006.12.04 09:53:00 - [6] Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 10:05:35 someone anyone? Logical reasons this can't be done? Jita or low sec take your pic.
Fuujin Hadean Drive Yards	Posted - 2006.12.04 10:03:00 - [7] Has the op even been out of high sec? Hadean Drive Yards Tier 2 BC Pricing
Merchantigus Minmatar Riot Zone	Posted - 2006.12.04 10:05:00 - [8] Originally by: Fuujin Has the op even been out of high sec? would you care to post some logical reasons this can't be done? the door is wide open
Fuujin Hadean Drive Yards	Posted - 2006.12.04 10:11:00 - [9] Edited by: Fuujin on 04/12/2006 10:12:22 For one, for a group to put 2 people out of a mining op in low sec on cap duty defeats the whole purpose of mining in low sec. Profit. Putting those 2 people behind mining lasers mining scordite will yield you more money then the alternative, much less risk in the process too. Second there's the issue of them being able to defend such an endeavor WITHOUT taking losses. More often then not lowsec pirates fly around in groups. Even when they're alone they're usually more then well fitted for quickly dispaching an enemy and getting out of there if need be to come back and pick off another. Even for experienced people with low sec this can sometimes be an issue. I've seen a single pilgrim pilot take out several ships in a mining party, even with cap. It's not a rare occurence what so ever. It's not worth the payout, it's as simple as that and it doesn't work nearly as easily as you put it. Hadean Drive Yards Tier 2 BC Pricing
Merchantigus Minmatar Riot Zone	Posted - 2006.12.04 10:16:00 - [10] Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 10:18:46 "For one, for a group to put 2 people out of a mining op in low sec on cap duty defeats the whole purpose of mining in low sec. Profit. Putting those 2 people behind mining lasers mining scordite will yield you more money then the alternative, much less risk in the process too." so bring your two miners and hire 2 noobs in griffons? i'm not sure where you live but last time i checked noobs were cheap. And if you are trying to tell me there is simply more money to be made mining veldspar you are plain wrong. "Second there's the issue of them being able to defend such an endeavor WITHOUT taking losses. More often then not lowsec pirates fly around in groups. Even when they're alone they're usually more then well fitted for quickly dispaching an enemy and getting out of there if need be to come back and pick off another. Even for experienced people with low sec this can sometimes be an issue." 2 frigs with ecm or dampers = sol pirate. if you are aligned correctly you will be out of there before they can fire a shot. If more than one pirate comes up and you just sit there that's what you get for not watching local. 5 pirates show up? dock and log 10 mins should be enough time for them to move on. "It's not worth the payout, it's as simple as that and it doesn't work nearly as easily as you put it." If you do it wrong no it's not...and with half a brain it will work exactly as i put it.
Fuujin Hadean Drive Yards	Posted - 2006.12.04 10:18:00 - [11] Yeah, now i'm convinced you probably haven't even stepped out of Kisogo. Thanks but conversation over. Hadean Drive Yards Tier 2 BC Pricing
Merchantigus Minmatar Riot Zone	Posted - 2006.12.04 10:19:00 - [12] Originally by: Fuujin Yeah, now i'm convinced you probably haven't even stepped out of Kisogo. Thanks but conversation over. gj next?
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2006.12.04 10:20:00 - [13] heck.. i'm trading my butt off already and it's only possible due to some friendly producers - those, that have not (yet) moved to jita in order to stash _all_ the money. warp-to-zero has made the entire business of spreading the modules a lot easier.. if there were enough to distro: 10% for bringing the stuff around, taking all the risks, paying tax, paying the broker, undercutting other ones just like you etc is not the idea of heaven as you describe it. also, having 20bil in items waiting weeks to be sold in order to make 50mil/day, reduces the amount of possible price balancers drastically. now, with all that, we're between a rock and a hard place already. if it weren't for patch days combined with some more or less lucky speculations, there's no reason to even start trying - with and especially without alt.chars for undercutting and logistics. not trying to shift the blame for high prices 'cause there's nothing to actually shift. however, cursing the resellers for inhabiting this rough environment and demanding them to do more is just ridiculous.
Merchantigus Minmatar Riot Zone	Posted - 2006.12.04 10:26:00 - [14] Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 10:30:06 Originally by: Roemy Schneider heck.. i'm trading my butt off already and it's only possible due to some friendly producers - those, that have not (yet) moved to jita in order to stash _all_ the money. warp-to-zero has made the entire business of spreading the modules a lot easier.. if there were enough to distro: 10% for bringing the stuff around, taking all the risks, paying tax, paying the broker, undercutting other ones just like you etc is not the idea of heaven as you describe it. also, having 20bil in items waiting weeks to be sold in order to make 50mil/day, reduces the amount of possible price balancers drastically. now, with all that, we're between a rock and a hard place already. if it weren't for patch days combined with some more or less lucky speculations, there's no reason to even start trying - with and especially without alt.chars for undercutting and logistics. not trying to shift the blame for high prices 'cause there's nothing to actually shift. however, cursing the resellers for inhabiting this rough environment and demanding them to do more is just ridiculous. I'm not suggesting the poor souls that form the backbone of our economy start drudging around the univesrse. the guy growing the "stuff" in the congo isn't the guy on the street pushing it. there is money to be made and while making it a problem and be solved. if i had a frieghter and the isk i'd be in jita filling it at this very moment. i'm not suggesting the trade base move from jita i'm suggesting people move the product from the base to the consumers. The people i see doing this wouldn't be the guys with bpos to high heavens or the hard core traders but less fortunate people that are drawn by the money. eve works alot like rl. this is just another example. supply is high in jita demand is therefore low. supply is low at the rims and therefore demand is high. Bring the supply where the demand is and make some money. do this enough and outer trade hubs start to flourish and take the pessure off jita because there are other places to find stuff. Before this wouldn't work so well because of the freggen gate campers and travel times. with wtz though it's just sitting there waiting.
Miyoko Sanae Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2006.12.04 10:30:00 - [15] You figure demand is low in Jita? Have you taken a look at the mineral market there since the patch?
Ishana Minmatar The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.04 10:30:00 - [16] Originally by: Merchantigus so bring your two miners and hire 2 noobs in griffons? i'm not sure where you live but last time i checked noobs were cheap. And if you are trying to tell me there is simply more money to be made mining veldspar you are plain wrong. If you could mine continuasly then you're right low sec would be better. But you would be docked for hours on end or be shot to bits, eitehr way he's right mining veldspar in high sec is better. Originally by: Merchantigus 2 frigs with ecm or dampers = sol pirate. if you are aligned correctly you will be out of there before they can fire a shot. If more than one pirate comes up and you just sit there that's what you get for not watching local. 5 pirates show up? dock and log 10 mins should be enough time for them to move on. Ok let's forget that you can't mine while you're at speed and have to be sitting still, and forget the fact that the pirates have drones/fofs ecm/damps of their own, let's forget that 2 frigs will never break a pirates tank, and lets also forget about sniper pirates that 1 shot your mining barge from 200km or pirates in recon ships. Do you really think it's better to flee time and time again then to mine continuasly in high sec? Because I can tell you you will be docked most of the time if you manage to avoid the pirates. Originally by: Merchantigus If you do it wrong no it's not...and with half a brain it will work exactly as i put it. The funny thing is that anyone with 10% of a brain can see it's not worth it in this version of eve. Seems you live in fantasy eve, good luck with that. _________________________________________________________
Sinder Ohm	Posted - 2006.12.04 10:31:00 - [17] Originally by: Ishana Most of the pirates i know are old veterans with 20+ mil skillpoints that are tired from the broken 0.0 parts of the game, and moved to low sec to have fun again. Even if we "noob" all the fish out of low sec, it will just be our own private little part of space, don't worry about us, really. Moving to 0.0 like you suggest is excactly what most of us don't want, because 0.0 is broken and not fun, believe me I've been there. (lived there for over a year) I live in 0.0 aswell granted only 3 months sofar but im interested to find out why you say 0.0 is broken ? Since I find it way better than rotting with the other carebears in empire.
Merchantigus Minmatar Riot Zone	Posted - 2006.12.04 10:31:00 - [18] Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 10:41:33 Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 10:36:10 Originally by: Miyoko Sanae You figure demand is low in Jita? Have you taken a look at the mineral market there since the patch? Do people out in the outland buy minerals? no. they buy mods/ships/ammo/drones/anything but ore. the ore goes to jita because that's where the demand is. the demand areas for ore are usually about oposite of the demand areas for ships and mods. ore- outlands -----> jita stuff- outlands<-----jita the second part of this equation is currently broken and the cause of the problems. It became like this because of gatecamps and incredibly long travel times. wtz now opens the path for it to go the other way and i belive it's part of why they implimented it. "but i might get ganked even with wtz!" send a shuttle through first? use the map to look for and avoid hot spots? or even better do both to have complete safety?
Ishana Minmatar The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.04 10:35:00 - [19] Originally by: Sinder Ohm Originally by: Ishana Most of the pirates i know are old veterans with 20+ mil skillpoints that are tired from the broken 0.0 parts of the game, and moved to low sec to have fun again. Even if we "noob" all the fish out of low sec, it will just be our own private little part of space, don't worry about us, really. Moving to 0.0 like you suggest is excactly what most of us don't want, because 0.0 is broken and not fun, believe me I've been there. (lived there for over a year) I live in 0.0 aswell granted only 3 months sofar but im interested to find out why you say 0.0 is broken ? Since I find it way better than rotting with the other carebears in empire. it's not 0.0 that is broken actually it's more the whole pos/sov/capital thing that is no were near balanced atm. It's boring as hell and after months of pos warfare it's anything but fun. When a game starts feeling like a job, you should realy evaluate what you're doing, and that's what allot of us did. _________________________________________________________
Merchantigus Minmatar Riot Zone	Posted - 2006.12.04 10:38:00 - [20] Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 10:38:24 Originally by: Ishana Originally by: Sinder Ohm Originally by: Ishana Most of the pirates i know are old veterans with 20+ mil skillpoints that are tired from the broken 0.0 parts of the game, and moved to low sec to have fun again. Even if we "noob" all the fish out of low sec, it will just be our own private little part of space, don't worry about us, really. Moving to 0.0 like you suggest is excactly what most of us don't want, because 0.0 is broken and not fun, believe me I've been there. (lived there for over a year) I live in 0.0 aswell granted only 3 months sofar but im interested to find out why you say 0.0 is broken ? Since I find it way better than rotting with the other carebears in empire. it's not 0.0 that is broken actually it's more the whole pos/sov/capital thing that is no were near balanced atm. It's boring as hell and after months of pos warfare it's anything but fun. When a game starts feeling like a job, you should realy evaluate what you're doing, and that's what allot of us did. i'll let someone else say it....and wtf does this have to do with either of the topics? go somewhere else to whine?
Miyoko Sanae Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2006.12.04 10:41:00 - [21] WTZ was implemented to reduce server lag due to bookmarks. The centralized market that is jita won't change that easily simply because nobody wants to travel through several regions to find the best prices on an item. There are regionalized markets, jita is just the biggest and most well known one in the game. Even if resources were spread out more we'd still have a huge amount of traffic there unless they suddenly stuck it on the complete opposite end of the map behind 20 jumps through 0.0. You won't make enough catering to small groups of customers with what your suggesting considering the time investement.
Merchantigus Minmatar Riot Zone	Posted - 2006.12.04 10:49:00 - [22] Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 10:59:40 "WTZ was implemented to reduce server lag due to bookmarks." Thats "the" reason but from watching these guys over the years they often see a very big picture and do things for more reasons than they let on. "The centralized market that is jita won't change that easily simply because nobody wants to travel through several regions to find the best prices on an item." This is how it is in low/no sec but the opposite. no one wants to travel through several regions to find the cheapest item and often will spend much more just to save a few jumps. Figure out what the people of the region buy alot of or wish they could find. buy alot of it cheap in jita drop it out near where the people live? Are you not seeing this? "There are regionalized markets, jita is just the biggest and most well known one in the game. Even if resources were spread out more we'd still have a huge amount of traffic there unless they suddenly stuck it on the complete opposite end of the map behind 20 jumps through 0.0." There will always be major hubs but this would atleast take a good bit of pressure off. if people could find things near lowsec/.0 they would spend a pretty penny more just to save wasted time. you can't gouge through the roof but you can turn a hefty profit even if you buy from the hubs and not directly from jita. "You won't make enough catering to small groups of customers with what your suggesting considering the time investement." My entire region is mostly devoid of items. even being right on the edge i still have to make 8 jumps in many directions to gather all the new parts each and every time i lose a ship. and this is after i travel out of .0 and low sec and back into green land because outside of that there is nothing. there are alot of people out there in the outlands and there are alot of lost ships. people would pay a good bit more compared to the "hubs" and in jita things are even cheaper. + there are ALOT more ships blown up out there. pirates/corp wars/i dont like you pop compared to "oops i lost a ship to rats lolz". fighting people is alot harder than fighting rats and therefore they go through stuff alot faster. There may be fewer people than in empire but they go through a hell of alot more ships. and if you could set up a post near a war zone the money would be beyond comprehension.
Merchantigus Minmatar Riot Zone	Posted - 2006.12.04 11:09:00 - [23] Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 11:19:12 "If you could mine continuasly then you're right low sec would be better. But you would be docked for hours on end or be shot to bits, eitehr way he's right mining veldspar in high sec is better." your welcome to the veldspare but you admit the money is there. "Ok let's forget that you can't mine while you're at speed and have to be sitting still, and forget the fact that the pirates have drones/fofs ecm/damps of their own, let's forget that 2 frigs will never break a pirates tank" The idea isn't to kill the pirates the idea is to scamble them untill your barge is away "and lets also forget about sniper pirates that 1 shot your mining barge from 200km or pirates in recon ships." Once again this light setup isn't ment to counter EVERY pirate. there are a few big fish in the pond but most are minnows. if someone shows up in the "deathanator 3k" yes he'll still get you but as you are bringing a low cost setup of two em frigs you are taking more risk for more reward. welcome the the concept behind eve. "Do you really think it's better to flee time and time again then to mine continuasly in high sec? Because I can tell you you will be docked most of the time if you manage to avoid the pirates." Risk V reward. it's up to each person to answere this question for himself. you could make a fortune in hours or you could spend hours camped by pirates. once again welcome to eve. "The funny thing is that anyone with 10% of a brain can see it's not worth it in this version of eve." i think you got the 10% of a brain right... "Seems you live in fantasy eve, good luck with that." No i live in an eve where i decide to take higher risk for the chance of greater rewards. you live in an eve hiding in high sec mining veldspar... The thing about eve is it can be both. my post pleads to those willing to take a risk to come back with a fat sack of gold. Back when i was in a mining corp we did this. somedays we spent docked hiding from pirates. somedays we spent bringing in isk by the truckload. there was risk but there was sooo much yummy reward. After a while replaced the frigs with battleships and moved into .o which is the exact same thing but bigger ships and more people aka more risk and therefore more reward. Low sec is the midpoint between .0 and high sec. i have no respect for the corps/players that stay in high sec. i have no respect for the corps/players that stay in low sec. the people i have respect for start off in high sec move to low sec and then eventually move father out to bring in wealth that would boggle the mind. this is how the game was ment to be played. sadly some just dont get it. Some pvpers hide in low sec and refuse to move on when it's time Some pvers hide in high sec and refuse to move on when it's time this is what the devs mean by "everyone should move to .0" it's their goal to drive you there because there you find the heart of eve. Highsec--->lowsec---->.0 you can come back and argue untill you are blue in the face that this just isn't so but i was there in the begening when they first started their vision. i was there in the begening when the lag was so bad you couldn't leave the station i was there are they tossed the idea of high/low sec around in their heads and decided there needed to be buffer areas for new people. and now i'm here to watch people that just dont get it from all sides try to snuff out the soul of the game.
Kagashi	Posted - 2006.12.04 11:12:00 - [24] Edited by: Kagashi on 04/12/2006 11:18:09 Well im not going to comment on the OP because it was mostly just rubbish he couldnt sell in another thread. He obviouly thought it was so great it was worth another shot.. Ahh well.... However. I have been thinking about the Jita issue for some time and i think i have a solution to solve the problem. Think of a crowd of people at a concert.. the more people the crazyer the crowd gets .. the more uncontrollable. What if for ever 50 people in a system the sec droped by 0.1 just with regard to concord. So you get 250 people in a sysetm thats a 0.5 drop in sec I garentee you would have less people in jita EDIT.. fixed my maths
Disco Flint Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.04 11:18:00 - [25] Originally by: Merchantigus Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 10:18:46 "For one, for a group to put 2 people out of a mining op in low sec on cap duty defeats the whole purpose of mining in low sec. Profit. Putting those 2 people behind mining lasers mining scordite will yield you more money then the alternative, much less risk in the process too." so bring your two miners and hire 2 noobs in griffons? i'm not sure where you live but last time i checked noobs were cheap. And if you are trying to tell me there is simply more money to be made mining veldspar you are plain wrong. "Second there's the issue of them being able to defend such an endeavor WITHOUT taking losses. More often then not lowsec pirates fly around in groups. Even when they're alone they're usually more then well fitted for quickly dispaching an enemy and getting out of there if need be to come back and pick off another. Even for experienced people with low sec this can sometimes be an issue." 2 frigs with ecm or dampers = sol pirate. if you are aligned correctly you will be out of there before they can fire a shot. If more than one pirate comes up and you just sit there that's what you get for not watching local. 5 pirates show up? dock and log 10 mins should be enough time for them to move on. "It's not worth the payout, it's as simple as that and it doesn't work nearly as easily as you put it." If you do it wrong no it's not...and with half a brain it will work exactly as i put it. - There's no way to protect the barges - Even with someone flying escort, you can't kill them fast enough, force them to fire on the escort or anything. ECM, Sensor Damps etc will maybe help your miners get out 50% of the time if you're lucky. Even if it's a suicide run for the pirate in the end, he can have a cheap fitting, fully insured ship and close to zero loss while having quite some fun, while one or two barges down, not even mentioning the hauler, pretty much ruin your day. - Watching local / Safespotting is NOT an option - Even in the most quiet lowsec systems there will be traffic, people looking for juicy belt rats, people feeding their POS'es and ebil people looking for juicy prey. Unless you safespot EVERY time as soon as someone appears in local that you do not know, you're ****. Even if aligned, barges require aeons to accelerate to warp. So, now you safespot every time an unknown person comes into local; that's a massive loss you're taking there. Even when not ice-mining, where stopping the miners before the cycle time ends yields you crap all for 1-9 minutes work, even then you'll most likely spend 5-25 minutes at your safespot and then some more until you're in 'mining position' again. - So you're hiring noobs to have some pawns you can sacrifice? - Well uhm... you know, you can't see if they're alts, belonging to a corp filled with ebil griefers. Do you want to seriously risk your barges, hauler and time spent that evening to a pair of noobs who might just warpscramble you in the moment of emergency? Yes, one has to be paranoid in EVE. - Roll a D20 for initiative - And lastly, THEY (the ebil bloodsucking pirates) have the initiative, they can decide wether they want to fight or not, they decide on the range of the engagement, they can make bookmarks all around your mining op with a cov ops alt (which, given you don't ss every time someone enters local, you wont be seeing unless you do a 360¦ every 30secs) and they can generally hold out long enough to BaF should, against all odds, things go seriously wrong for them. So after all, you either have been EXTREMELY lucky with your time in lowsec, the people and pirates you encountered and the systems you were in... or you see lowsec through pink, sparkly 'High-Sec Issue' glasses. On a totally unrelated side-note: you forum, ** you.
Tachy	Posted - 2006.12.04 11:19:00 - [26] Moving your goods to LowSec and NulSec isn't worth it until you have other business out there too. There aren't enough customers. I did that for a while. Too much hassle for far less profit for my time. I went back to supply HiSec trade hubs even though I can sell my goods for only half the amount of cash. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. Sell 10 ships at 200k profit each in LowSec. Lose 2 ships to pirates in average. Sell 40 ships at 80k profit each in HiSec. Pay 10% more for your minerals. Both can be done in the same time. You'd go path 1. The #pirates in LowSec didn't change. At least not in the areas I visited over the weekend. --==*-- The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait \| 2006.09.20
Sirial Soulfly	Posted - 2006.12.04 11:22:00 - [27] One of the reasons why jita is clogged after the implementation of revelations is because of the removal of escrow, forcing more people to buy and sell their stuff in trade hubs. If ever contracts are made to be usable globally it will take some pressure of the trade hubs.
Tachy	Posted - 2006.12.04 11:24:00 - [28] Originally by: Kagashi Edited by: Kagashi on 04/12/2006 11:18:09 Well im not going to comment on the OP because it was mostly just rubbish he couldnt sell in another thread. He obviouly thought it was so great it was worth another shot.. Ahh well.... However. I have been thinking about the Jita issue for some time and i think i have a solution to solve the problem. Think of a crowd of people at a concert.. the more people the crazyer the crowd gets .. the more uncontrollable. What if for ever 50 people in a system the sec droped by 0.1 just with regard to concord. So you get 250 people in a sysetm thats a 0.5 drop in sec I garentee you would have less people in jita EDIT.. fixed my maths Nice idea, but it wont change anything. Clonejump, WTZ, massive market where you can get all you need in one go. Shop, install, warp out. The more centralized escrow replacement doesn't help either. It could be used to support setup traders, but that wont happen as the pilot can grab their stuff in the same time or even much faster than it takes to search for a setup in contracts you like. --==*-- The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait \| 2006.09.20
Rorix Whitecloud Caldari Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.04 11:27:00 - [29] Originally by: Merchantigus Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 11:11:01 "If you could mine continuasly then you're right low sec would be better. But you would be docked for hours on end or be shot to bits, eitehr way he's right mining veldspar in high sec is better." your welcome to the veldspare but you admit the money is there. "Ok let's forget that you can't mine while you're at speed and have to be sitting still, and forget the fact that the pirates have drones/fofs ecm/damps of their own, let's forget that 2 frigs will never break a pirates tank" The idea isn't to kill the pirates the idea is to scamble them untill your barge is away "and lets also forget about sniper pirates that 1 shot your mining barge from 200km or pirates in recon ships." Once again this light setup isn't ment to counter EVERY pirate. there are a few big fish in the pond but most are minnows. if someone shows up in the "deathanator 3k" yes he'll still get you but as you are bringing a low cost setup of two em frigs you are taking more risk for more reward. welcome the the concept behind eve. "Do you really think it's better to flee time and time again then to mine continuasly in high sec? Because I can tell you you will be docked most of the time if you manage to avoid the pirates." Risk V reward. it's up to each person to answere this question for himself. you could make a fortune in hours or you could spend hours camped by pirates. once again welcome to eve. "The funny thing is that anyone with 10% of a brain can see it's not worth it in this version of eve." i think you got the 10% of a brain right... "Seems you live in fantasy eve, good luck with that." No i live in an eve where i decide to take higher risk for the chance of greater rewards. you live in an eve hiding in high sec mining veldspar... The thing about eve is it can be both. my post pleads to those willing to take a risk to come back with a fat sack of gold. Merch, you really need to learn to type.. or learn english. Now, lets look at what you can mine in high sec, and what you can mine in lowsec. Highsec: Kernite/Jaspet and above @ 4mil an hour Lowsec: Hegberdite/Hemorphite and above @ 8mil an hour So, this means, if you can mine in low sec HALF the time you need to mine in high sec, you've made a profit, and this is assuming no ship-losses. IF you got your newbies in their frigs guarding you, and you get away from pirates and whatnot, you just lost all the ores you've been mining in the can you've dropped. That's all the profit in the last hour gone. Or, you can ninja mine and not use cans, which'll drop your profit to half of that, which would make low sec not worth it at all. Or, if you're unlucky and see one of those experienced pirates, you've just lose 20+ mil worth of strip miners, in addition to the ore you've been mining in the past hour. Either way, its a losing propsition to be mining in low sec right now, and it really doesnt matter how high you think the reward is in low sec. Repopulate Low Security! Goal: To blaster-fit every Caldari ship with a gun slot! :D
Merchantigus Minmatar Riot Zone	Posted - 2006.12.04 11:30:00 - [30] Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 11:35:50 @ disco flint i'm not saying it's totally full proof I'm not saying it works all the time i'm saying it can be done rather cheaply and by the end of the day you could be wealthy. i'm also saying there is risk vs this reward. you COULD end up missing a few ships or be stuck in the station for a bit..or you could leave very well off. Many people have whinned and whinned saying it can't be done. i'm saying it can but there are risk. if you can't handle that enjoy your veldspare. Just like mr veldspare up there it's risk vs reward. i'm not saying any of this is without risk. i'm saying for that risk there is very great reward waiting. it's something each person must weigh but it can be done is all i'm trying to get across and the two of you have admitted as much. Yes there is great risk. Yes there is great reward. and that's the whole point. it can be done and if the risk doesn't show up and pod you the reward is incredible. @wolf Highsec: Kernite/Jaspet and above @ 4mil an hour Lowsec: Hegberdite/Hemorphite and above @ 8mil an hour ....yah twice the reward...if you don't think that's worth some risk enjoy your veldspar thanks for doing that math for me . i knew there was alot more to be made but i didn't know it was double. "Merch, you really need to learn to type.. or learn english." When still up at 6 am you are type this good you will not mmhmhmmhmmm yess
Daos Leghki Paxton Industries	Posted - 2006.12.04 11:34:00 - [31] As a former pirate, I'll point out that the barges are never safe. They are the easiest target, very quick to take down and drop great loot. I've attacked escorted mining ops solo in a crappy T1 fitted Stabber and gotten out alive after popping the barges. If the escort is smaller than a cruiser, they would just be popped too. Of course, ECM, damps, etc can change that, but then you bring some buddies. Also, the reason that people won't "spread out" is because it pays to clump up. Jita is popular because despite the lag and the overcrowding, you can still buy everything you need in one stop. Or, you can sell your goods. I go to Jita if I need to sell something myself. Insulting people isn't going to get them to like you. And, your suggestions on how to guard against pirates suggest you've never pirated or been attacked by a competent force. Sure, the 3 day old characters in T1 frigs can be warded off by a couple of guys in pretty much anything. They're not the problem, they could've been killed by drones from two barges, tbh. It's the guys who show up in HACs or AFs, who know what they're doing, who scout, and who have good skills. Barges are too fragile to mine in, and it's simply not profitable to mine in low-sec because of how vulnerable you are. Finally, I'd like to please ask that you put some visual separation between the lines you quote and your responses. It hurts my eyes to try to read your posts. Repopulate Low-Sec Paxton Industries is Recruiting
Xaildaine	Posted - 2006.12.04 11:36:00 - [32] Originally by: Merchantigus Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 11:31:55 @ disco flint i'm not saying it's totally full proof I'm not saying it works all the time i'm saying it can be done rather cheaply and by the end of the day you could be wealthy. i'm also saying there is risk vs this reward and you could just as easily leave down a few ships or be stuck in the station for a bit.. Many people have whinned and whinned saying it can't be done. i'm saying it can but there are risk. if you can't handle that enjoy your veldspare. Just like mr veldspare up there it's risk vs reward. i'm not saying any of this is without risk. i'm saying for that risk there is very great reward waiting. it's something each person must weigh but it can be done is all i'm trying to get across and the two of you have admitted as much. Yes there is great risk. Yes there is great reward. and that's the whole point. it can be done and if the risk doesn't show up and pod you the reward is incredible. @wolf Highsec: Kernite/Jaspet and above @ 4mil an hour Lowsec: Hegberdite/Hemorphite and above @ 8mil an hour ....yah twice the reward...if you don't think that's worth some risk enjoy your veldspar thanks for doing that math for me . i knew there was alot more to be made but i didn't know it was double. thats raw numbers and has nothing to do with actual money made. What the use of mining somthing that will yeild 8 mill per hr if you can only mine it for 30 mins in that hr then loose you barge in the next? Even you have to realize that the risk taken mining in lowsec is WAY more than x2 that of highsec. have you even flown a covetor?
Rorix Whitecloud Caldari Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.04 11:40:00 - [33] Originally by: Merchantigus Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 11:33:27 Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 11:31:55 @ disco flint i'm not saying it's totally full proof I'm not saying it works all the time i'm saying it can be done rather cheaply and by the end of the day you could be wealthy. i'm also saying there is risk vs this reward and you could just as easily leave down a few ships or be stuck in the station for a bit.. Many people have whinned and whinned saying it can't be done. i'm saying it can but there are risk. if you can't handle that enjoy your veldspare. Just like mr veldspare up there it's risk vs reward. i'm not saying any of this is without risk. i'm saying for that risk there is very great reward waiting. it's something each person must weigh but it can be done is all i'm trying to get across and the two of you have admitted as much. Yes there is great risk. Yes there is great reward. and that's the whole point. it can be done and if the risk doesn't show up and pod you the reward is incredible. @wolf Highsec: Kernite/Jaspet and above @ 4mil an hour Lowsec: Hegberdite/Hemorphite and above @ 8mil an hour ....yah twice the reward...if you don't think that's worth some risk enjoy your veldspar thanks for doing that math for me . i knew there was alot more to be made but i didn't know it was double. "Merch, you really need to learn to type.. or learn english." When still up at 6 am you are type this good you will not mmhmhmmhmmm yess Wolf? who the **** is wolf? reading ftw? I did the calculations for you... you, however, appears to have a disability we like to call "selective reading". Its a condition where when you look at a post, lets say, your post, and quote you as saying: "I'm... stuck... in... the... veldspar." And if you already admit you cant type at 6AM, maybe you shouldnt be trolling the forums... Its also 6AM here, and i dont think i'm having such atrocious typing issues... seriously, go back to school and learn some more english. It'll help in places other than EVE. Repopulate Low Security! Goal: To blaster-fit every Caldari ship with a gun slot! :D
Merchantigus Minmatar Riot Zone	Posted - 2006.12.04 11:42:00 - [34] Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 11:47:51 @pirate dude Yes there is a risk that they run into someone that knows what he's doing. this is to balance out the reward of more money to be made. not every "pirate" knows what he's doing and the ones that do make up a very small number. also When still up at 6 am you are type this good you will not mmhmhmmhmmm yess i think that's going to be my quote from now on. @wolf again(or whatever the **** your name is) "thats raw numbers and has nothing to do with actual money made." except that's the actual money to be made if things go well. "What the use of mining somthing that will yeild 8 mill per hr if you can only mine it for 30 mins in that hr then loose you barge in the next?" Whats the point of only making 4 mill per hour when you could take some risk and make double that? Some people take risk for the money, some people take risk for the excitement, some people mine veldspar for their natural lives "And if you already admit you cant type at 6AM, maybe you shouldnt be trolling the forums..." this isn't a troll this is my opinion if i was trying to troll i would of done a much better job. what i have done is stated my opinion that happens to be the minority and invited the internet to come prove me wrong. "Its also 6AM here, and i dont think i'm having such atrocious typing issues... seriously, go back to school and learn some more english. It'll help in places other than EVE." wow did you think that up all by yourself? Also you aren't "having a discussion" with 4 people at once.
Daos Leghki Paxton Industries	Posted - 2006.12.04 11:46:00 - [35] Originally by: Merchantigus Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 11:43:13 @pirate dude Yes there is a risk that they run into someone that knows what he's doing. this is to balance out the reward of more money to be made. not every "pirate" knows what he's doing and the ones that do make up a very small number. also When still up at 6 am you are type this good you will not mmhmhmmhmmm yess i think that's going to be my quote from now on. Yeah, see, that's the problem... It DOESN'T balance out the risk. At the moment, low-sec is not profitable. Not unles you've got protection. If you want people in low-sec that aren't there to PVP, give them a reason to be there. Just telling them "oh, you can bring some newbs in frigs to guard you" is not a solution to the problem, and anyone who's smart enough to be doing production will quite easily figure out that it's not worth their time. So, lots of people just mine in high sec. Repopulate Low-Sec Paxton Industries is Recruiting
Merchantigus Minmatar Riot Zone	Posted - 2006.12.04 11:51:00 - [36] Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 11:54:58 Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 11:53:00 "Yeah, see, that's the problem... It DOESN'T balance out the risk. At the moment, low-sec is not profitable. Not unles you've got protection. If you want people in low-sec that aren't there to PVP, give them a reason to be there. Just telling them "oh, you can bring some newbs in frigs to guard you" is not a solution to the problem, and anyone who's smart enough to be doing production will quite easily figure out that it's not worth their time. So, lots of people just mine in high sec." Funny from what's been posted it can be twice as profitable. if you are doing production you arent just a miner anymore and therefore fit in with the jita guys i bowed to earlier. it can be done there is alot of money to be made just need light protection there is risk there is a crapload of reward waiting if you are willing to take that risk and it pays off. good day sir. The problem is a. morons who go out there as easy prey and spawn more noob pirates. solo miners mission runners without guns or armor ect ect. dumb people with expensive stuff breed pirates b. people who don't want to take risk. this is fine. if you enjoy veldspar and risk isn't your thing so be it but the money is out there you just have to go and get it. There are some real pirates. they will wtfpnwn you in the face ect ect. they are the minority. Ignorance breeds pirates which make low sec less secure which raises the risk and not the reward but there wouldn't be so many goddamn pirates if people went out better prepared.
Rorix Whitecloud Caldari Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.04 11:54:00 - [37] Originally by: Merchantigus Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 11:43:13 @pirate dude Yes there is a risk that they run into someone that knows what he's doing. this is to balance out the reward of more money to be made. not every "pirate" knows what he's doing and the ones that do make up a very small number. also When still up at 6 am you are type this good you will not mmhmhmmhmmm yess i think that's going to be my quote from now on. @wolf again(or whatever the **** your name is) "thats raw numbers and has nothing to do with actual money made." except that's the actual money to be made if things go well. What the use of mining somthing that will yeild 8 mill per hr if you can only mine it for 30 mins in that hr then loose you barge in the next? Whats the point of only making 4 mill per hour when you could take some risk and make double that? Some people take risk for the money, some people take risk for the excitement, some people mine veldspar for their natural lives Wow! i already pointed out to you that you messed up my name... and you do it again! that's AWSOME! You, truely can read. Aaaand, let me answer the questions you posed for you! Why mine @ 4 mil an hour? because you get to keep 4 mil! Why not mine @ 8 mil and hour and lose your ship in the next 30 minutes? because you've made 4 mil in that 30 minutes, and you just lost 28 mil in ships and fittings! WOAH! A grand total of 24 mil lost! I LOVE THAT! :D Here, how about a real life example for you? Would you: Get paid $40 for... lets say, working for an hour. OR Getting paid $80 for working an hour, BUT with the additional condition that there's a... lets say 50% chance every hour that you'll be charged $280. Sure, if you take the chance, you can come out ahead and make more money, but the probability of that happening is... well... quite low. Repopulate Low Security! Goal: To blaster-fit every Caldari ship with a gun slot! :D
Rorix Whitecloud Caldari Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.04 11:55:00 - [38] Originally by: Merchantigus Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 11:53:00 "Yeah, see, that's the problem... It DOESN'T balance out the risk. At the moment, low-sec is not profitable. Not unles you've got protection. If you want people in low-sec that aren't there to PVP, give them a reason to be there. Just telling them "oh, you can bring some newbs in frigs to guard you" is not a solution to the problem, and anyone who's smart enough to be doing production will quite easily figure out that it's not worth their time. So, lots of people just mine in high sec." Funny from what's been posted it can be twice as profitable. if you are doing production you arent just a miner anymore and therefore fit in with the jita guys i bowed to earlier. it can be done there is alot of money to be made just need light protection there is risk there is a crapload of reward waiting if you are willing to take that risk and it pays off. good day sir. The problem is a. morons who go out there as easy prey and spawn more noob pirates. solo miners mission runners without guns or armor ect ect. dumb people with expensive stuff breed pirates b. people who don't want to take risk. this is fine. if you enjoy veldspar and risk isn't your thing so be it but the money is out there you just have to go and get it. Where has anyone EVER mentioned mining veld? Just because veld is in empire doesnt mean anything. Hell, veld is in 0.0 too... maybe all those 0.0 guys are only mining veld! :D Repopulate Low Security! Goal: To blaster-fit every Caldari ship with a gun slot! :D
Merchantigus Minmatar Riot Zone	Posted - 2006.12.04 12:00:00 - [39] Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 12:02:35 "Aaaand, let me answer the questions you posed for you! Why mine @ 4 mil an hour? because you get to keep 4 mil! Why not mine @ 8 mil and hour and lose your ship in the next 30 minutes? because you've made 4 mil in that 30 minutes, and you just lost 28 mil in ships and fittings! WOAH! A grand total of 24 mil lost! I LOVE THAT! :D Here, how about a real life example for you? Would you: Get paid $40 for... lets say, working for an hour. OR Getting paid $80 for working an hour, BUT with the additional condition that there's a... lets say 50% chance every hour that you'll be charged $280. Sure, if you take the chance, you can come out ahead and make more money, but the probability of that happening is... well... quite low." more like private security forces in iraq. learn to analogy ktnx. the probability of them getting blown to hell is very high. the reward is around twice the money they would make doing something else. they take the risk some of them get blown to hell some of them go home with a fat sack of gold and your analogy in this context they would have a 50% chance to randomly explode every hour. the time between chances to explode aren't as often but it's the exact same thing and people still do it. Risk is not for everyone risk is obviously not for you but the money is out there despite what you may tell yourself :) op = ishana "If you could mine continuasly then you're right low sec would be better. But you would be docked for hours on end or be shot to bits, eitehr way he's right mining veldspar in high sec is better." now who can't read?
Tachy	Posted - 2006.12.04 12:01:00 - [40] Originally by: Merchantigus Loads of useless bits. You have no experience pirating or defending against pirates. You have no experience in LowSec. You have no experience about mining in LowSec. Your knowledge about how hubs develop themselves is none-existant. Your math is weak. Your logic is even weaker. You got a very strong selective-reading and ignoring-pointers skill. You'd probably make a fantastic journalist, lawyer or politician. For avoiding the '@wolf' issue, you could just open the thread in another browser window. Adressing people with a wrong name multiple times doesn't help your credibility. (I don't care for any language skills as long as I can read and understand what is being posted. English isn't my first language. Attacking people for grammer or typos doesn't get a discussion to any end without a lock from a mod.) --==*-- The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait \| 2006.09.20
Rorix Whitecloud Caldari Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.04 12:04:00 - [41] Originally by: Merchantigus "Aaaand, let me answer the questions you posed for you! Why mine @ 4 mil an hour? because you get to keep 4 mil! Why not mine @ 8 mil and hour and lose your ship in the next 30 minutes? because you've made 4 mil in that 30 minutes, and you just lost 28 mil in ships and fittings! WOAH! A grand total of 24 mil lost! I LOVE THAT! :D Here, how about a real life example for you? Would you: Get paid $40 for... lets say, working for an hour. OR Getting paid $80 for working an hour, BUT with the additional condition that there's a... lets say 50% chance every hour that you'll be charged $280. Sure, if you take the chance, you can come out ahead and make more money, but the probability of that happening is... well... quite low." more like private security forces in iraq. learn to analogy ktnx. the probability of them getting blown to hell is very high. the reward is around twice the money they would make doing something else. they take the risk some of them get blown to hell some of them go home with a fat sack of gold and your analogy in this context they would have a 50% chance to randomly explode every hour. the time between chances to explode aren't as often but it's the exact same thing and people still do it. Risk is not for everyone risk is obviously not for you but the money is out there despite what you may tell yourself :) Haha ok, lets use more concrete examples. Iraq private security forces... sure, high rewards. Total US troops in iraq... lets say, 100,000. Total US troop death... lets say 5000. Chance for death: 5% If the chance is only 5%, sure its worth it. Now, tell me that low sec mining is... O hell... go mine in low sec yourself (with an alt maybe?)... organize it however you like... and tell me again that there's only 5% chance of getting jumped by pirates? Repopulate Low Security! Goal: To blaster-fit every Caldari ship with a gun slot! :D
Plib	Posted - 2006.12.04 12:04:00 - [42] Edited by: Plib on 04/12/2006 12:06:12 Edited by: Plib on 04/12/2006 12:05:02 Originally by: Merchantigus The reason there are so many pirates is because there is so much easy prey. fight back and the noobs will find something else to do if the easy money dries up. I've been playing for nearly three years and I've only ever met one pirate. He tried to ransom a can of Kernite and I told him to go suck on it. He blew it up. I waited for him to leave. He never came back. The moral here is to mine where it's quiet instead of next door to Jita. Quote: 1. dont go out mining alone. 2 noobs in frigs are enough to run off/escape most pirates What are you trying to say here? I agree that a competent frig pilot should be able to run from a pirate but a competent frig pilot can't mine enough to make it worthwhile mining. Tell me how a barge can easily escape a pirate. Quote: 2. dont run around ratting with only one type of resist/dmg type. There are so many ways to foil a pirate in low sec yet none of them are done. then you all come on the forums and whine about it. it's amazing. Sort of good advice. Quote: Most of the pirates in low sec were gate camping noobs now most of the pirates in low sec have either given up or starting hunting people in missions but they are still noobs with a jammer. sure there may be a few big fish out there but i spend alot of time in low sec and i've only run into 1 big ship so far. I have no experience of pirating so I can't comment. Quote: The reason jita is so clogged is because it's the only place to get things. Completely untrue. Quote: <pointless rant> ..and the horse you rode in on.
Merchantigus Minmatar Riot Zone	Posted - 2006.12.04 12:08:00 - [43] Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 12:11:42 It's your math "Sell 10 ships at 200k profit each in LowSec. Lose 2 ships to pirates in average. Sell 40 ships at 80k profit each in HiSec. Pay 10% more for your minerals." "You have no experience pirating or defending against pirates." you're a self proclaimed trade runner i'm sure you're an expert "You have no experience in LowSec." Sure hoss "You have no experience about mining in LowSec." Sure hoss "Your knowledge about how hubs develop themselves is none-existant." it would take far to many words to even bother "Your logic is even weaker." you just made fun of your own math i wouldn't be talking "You got a very strong selective-reading and ignoring-pointers skill." I break the post up just like i did this one and reply to it. your words are still the exact same i just cut them into idea sized chunks to reply to them to make it nice and simple for everyone. Haha ok, lets use more concrete examples. Iraq private security forces... sure, high rewards. Total US troops in iraq... lets say, 100,000. Total US troop death... lets say 5000. Chance for death: 5% If the chance is only 5%, sure its worth it. nice invinted numbers ... there are no goddamn us troops in space... from what i've read/seen most of them die..out of a 10 man security corp 2 were left when they were forced to shut down due to lack of mercs. my numbers come from something where did you find yours? If for the the risk is to high for the reward fine. but there is high reward to go with that risk no matter what else you blather on about.
Merchantigus Minmatar Riot Zone	Posted - 2006.12.04 12:17:00 - [44] Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 12:23:45 Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 12:18:06 "I've been playing for nearly three years and I've only ever met one pirate. He tried to ransom a can of Kernite and I told him to go suck on it. He blew it up. I waited for him to leave. He never came back. The moral here is to mine where it's quiet instead of next door to Jita." I never see many at all and i've only seen 1 real pirate with a decent ship. there are quiet places out there indeed but lets take jita for example. out of that high pirate population area a good majority of them aren't the best around. the reason for half of the op is people whinning about there being to many pirates in low sec and therefore the reward isn't high enough to be worth it. i dont personally agree but whatever. Yes there is "stuff" but you have to go to high sec hubs to get it and once there hop around for hours picking it all up. "What are you trying to say here? I agree that a competent frig pilot should be able to run from a pirate but a competent frig pilot can't mine enough to make it worthwhile mining. Tell me how a barge can easily escape a pirate." I'm saying bring the frig pilot with you so he can jam said pirate while the barge warps off? i'm obviously not saying you can find nothing at all outside of jita. i'm saying except for a few hubs many jumps from .0 and low sec there isn't much out there. and people are willing to pay higher prices to save them the trouble. I'm saying 1. there is alot of reward wating for you but you have to take some risk 2. it can and is done 3. if you aren't wise and chose to take this risk where pirates are known to be many bring a bit of protection(more or less depnding on how much risk you are willing to take)
Rorix Whitecloud Caldari Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.04 12:18:00 - [45] Originally by: Merchantigus Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 12:10:54 Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 12:08:59 It's your math "Sell 10 ships at 200k profit each in LowSec. Lose 2 ships to pirates in average. Sell 40 ships at 80k profit each in HiSec. Pay 10% more for your minerals." "You have no experience pirating or defending against pirates." you're a self proclaimed trade runner i'm sure you're an expert "You have no experience in LowSec." Sure hoss "You have no experience about mining in LowSec." Sure hoss "Your knowledge about how hubs develop themselves is none-existant." it would take far to many words to even bother "Your logic is even weaker." you just made fun of your own math i wouldn't be talking "You got a very strong selective-reading and ignoring-pointers skill." I break the post up just like i did this one and reply to it. your words are still the exact same i just cut them into idea sized chunks to reply to them to make it nice and simple for everyone. Haha ok, lets use more concrete examples. Iraq private security forces... sure, high rewards. Total US troops in iraq... lets say, 100,000. Total US troop death... lets say 5000. Chance for death: 5% If the chance is only 5%, sure its worth it. nice invinted numbers ... there are no goddamn us troops in space... from what i've read/seen most of them die..out of a 10 man security corp 2 were left when they were forced to shut down due to lack of mercs. my numbers come from something where did you find yours? http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/iraq_orbat.htm : 150,000 US troops in iraq http://www.icasualties.org/oif/ almost 3000 US troop death in iraq. percent chance: 2% Now where did you get YOUR numbers? and besides, it was you who brought up the troops topic in the first place. I just gave an vague example. Originally by: Merchantigus more like private security forces in iraq. learn to analogy ktnx. the probability of them getting blown to hell is very high. the reward is around twice the money they would make doing something else. they take the risk some of them get blown to hell some of them go home with a fat sack of gold see? And, if we use the numbers you provided (sans source)... 2/10 come home alive... i think 8/10 ppl just got screwed on the deal... and kinda reflects current low sec pretty well.. 8/10 ppl get killed by pirates and never come back, while 2/10 stay in low sec... and you're still wondering why there are not more ppl in low sec? Repopulate Low Security! Goal: To blaster-fit every Caldari ship with a gun slot! :D
Shayla Sh'inlux Gallente The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.04 12:25:00 - [46] In short: 90% of all pirates are nubs with a jammer, lowsec is uber for mining rewards and especially missions are good if you use your Gist Raven. I know a good agent in Otsasai and some very very nice belts in Nalvula. Everyone should come there. Btw, if you're so experienced: where's your portrait? Originally by: "Cy4n1d3" You can't PVP with 4 mids.
Merchantigus Minmatar Riot Zone	Posted - 2006.12.04 12:31:00 - [47] Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 12:32:36 @roxix .....there are no us troops in low sec. not as many people in low sec want to kill you. there are no numbers for this... your bickering over an analogy... If you must continue to bicker subtract the us troops leaving just the mercs subtract from the amount of people that want to kill you. come up with some nice sounding number and try to fight with me over it?
Rorix Whitecloud Caldari Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.04 12:31:00 - [48] Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux In short: 90% of all pirates are nubs with a jammer, lowsec is uber for mining rewards and especially missions are good if you use your Gist Raven. I know a good agent in Otsasai and some very very nice belts in Nalvula. Everyone should come there. Btw, if you're so experienced: where's your portrait? Well summarized! I think i'm done here :) Repopulate Low Security! Goal: To blaster-fit every Caldari ship with a gun slot! :D
Merchantigus Minmatar Riot Zone	Posted - 2006.12.04 12:35:00 - [49] Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 12:35:52 "In short: 90% of all pirates are nubs with a jammer, lowsec is uber for mining rewards and especially missions are good if you use your Gist Raven." sure money+risk sounds about right. I know a good agent in Otsasai and some very very nice belts in Nalvula. Everyone should come there. Not for long :p Btw, if you're so experienced: where's your portrait? I deleted my main because his skills were all over the place and running armor tanks while looking at the shield skills going to waste or using drones and blasters while looking at all the missles kills going to waste was driving me mad. Then i'd notice how far along i could of been had i focused and not split my sp between everything that could be done and couldn't take it anymore. He was spread out to much and since kali i just nuked him and made a more focused alt.
d026 Herrscher der Zeit	Posted - 2006.12.04 12:36:00 - [50] the pirates i encountered usualy use hacs, recons and bss. you wont stand a chance if you only have 2 frigs at hand:) better also bring 1-2 hacs some bss and tII frigates and if applicable some logistic cruisers.
Miri Tirzan Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.04 12:36:00 - [51] No one is going to waste time with low sec. Jita not broken. Keep saying that till you sinks in. Low sec is broken. The risk far out ways the reward and has for years. If you want to get players into low sec then a few things need to be done, and not the crap you like to spew. Add Fog of war back into the map. Number of pilots in space should only show near real time for the systems that are controlled. Basically, if you dont control a system, then you cannot see what is in there. A skill at launching probes though stargates would be nice or some kinda deployable sensor platform to feed information back to the owner who is a jump or two away. But for low-sec, the empire that owns the systems knows who is where but for everyone else, you don't. Add risk to Low sec Low sec is not NO SEC so there should be a random chance that agression is going to get a response by the owning empire. Camping for hours style gate camping should be impossible in low sec. An Empire owns that space and should takes steps to remove the camp after the first few kills. Any kill should have chance of the owning empire sending a police force in, based on the security level, to address the agression. Since there is more agression in low sec then the chance that the police are off dealing with a different issue is high but you could get unlucky. Scanners and Probes Scanners and probes with Kali are too easy. Before it was too hard but now it is just too easy. CCP needs to dial it back to a mid point. This is already driving the mission runners out of low sec. New Item CCP needs to introduce a moble bubble. It should make targeting anything inside of it impossible. It should be mounted on a ship that cannot be inside of the bubble. The idea behind this is to let there actually be a way to defend with a combat force and force the raiders priates to kill the defensive units before they can just pop the easy targets. This would suppost mining in high risk areas but not stop the pirates but does add the ability to defend. As to Jita Jita was made by the players. Anything done to hurt Jita will just cause another one to appear, why, because it is the easies way to sell stuff. You may not like Jita, but your fellow players have and they like it. I would suggest that a bypass system be added to allow though traffic a way with out adding to the crowding. Basically, I see no worth while suggestions in this thred from you or in the last one where you spewwed the same crap. If you want to get people into low sec, then offer a suggestion that makes the risk vs reward acceptible not your standard "You are wimps for not wanting to come out and be a target" svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
Acama	Posted - 2006.12.04 12:37:00 - [52] Originally by: Merchantigus mOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooo I have already made all my points to you, repeatedly, in the other thread. All I have to add is, in an amicable and in-character way, I think you're an idiot.
DarkFenix Caldari Pilots From Honour	Posted - 2006.12.04 12:39:00 - [53] I really don't think Merchantigus has ever left high sec. Low sec pirates Firstly, an escort ship is a waste of money in low sec, there just isn't the profit available. Secondly, aside from the occasional noob in a frigate who fancies himself a bit of pvp action, low sec pirates tend to fly well fitted powerful ships. They have to, due to these things we call sentry guns. This means they will probably be able to toast an escort ship in pretty short order, and even if they can't they can toast the miners before you can so much as blink. I did it recently. I was part of a small gang of cruisers, t1 cruisers, t1 fitted, about 4 of us, . We warped into a small 0.0 mining op. 0.0 so these people will surely be vigilant won't they? In fact there was a 40 man fleet in local chasing us, their alliance chat must have been full of talk about the hostiles coming up towards them. But what happened? We warped to their belt, found a covetor and mackinor there. They were both scrambled and destroyed before anyone could do anything to help them. No, this wasn't low sec, but the point stands. Miners can be easily popped before escorts can respond effectively. As for moving to 0.0, I'll agree with an earlier poster who said 0.0 is effectively broken. Sure, it's nice to shift out to 0.0 for a while to make some money, but living there is rather dull unless you're in a war (in which case you're not going to be making much profit, if any). And to be perfectly honest, I don't mind Jita's lag. The queues are seldom as bad as they were immediately after Kali deployment, and it means I can buy and fit my ship from a single station, for a reasonable price at that. I don't try doing anything else in Jita, I just go there to shop, then I leave.
Merchantigus Minmatar Riot Zone	Posted - 2006.12.04 12:39:00 - [54] Originally by: Acama I have already made all my points to you, repeatedly, in the other thread. All I have to add is, in an amicable and in-character way, I think you're an idiot. same to you buddy.
Merchantigus Minmatar Riot Zone	Posted - 2006.12.04 12:40:00 - [55] Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 12:40:51 "I've been playing for nearly three years and I've only ever met one pirate. He tried to ransom a can of Kernite and I told him to go suck on it. He blew it up. I waited for him to leave. He never came back. The moral here is to mine where it's quiet instead of next door to Jita." See this man? he gets it and he's making alot of money for it. I used to do the same thing as this man and i also made lots of money for it.
Tachy	Posted - 2006.12.04 12:41:00 - [56] Edited by: Tachy on 04/12/2006 12:45:31 Your US troops gain anything pat their pay + combat bonus for being send into Iraq for the Bush family's oil and their friend's trade? They come back home with bags full of gold? So they're looters and thieves and if they're cought, they might end up being executed for conducting war crimes. Great fun. You forgot the couple 10k soldiers who lost their health and most of their future options while being there in your equation. I know people who came back from war service wounded and/or with massive mental problems. In my math I am still 1.2mil, two ships and probably some minor implants and 1-2 clones ahead for producing and selling in the trade hubs. Not to mention that I have to spend less time travelling and that I can run missions while you're still sucking in minerals in LowSec. --==*-- The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait \| 2006.09.20
Merchantigus Minmatar Riot Zone	Posted - 2006.12.04 12:42:00 - [57] Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 12:46:47 Your US troops gain anything pat their pay + combat bonus for being send into Iraq for the Bush family's oil and their friend's trade? They come back home with bags full of gold? So they're looters and thieves and if they're cought, they might end up being executed for conducting war crimes. Great fun. not acual gold and i was talking about the indipendant mercs. learn to read. You forgot the couple 10k soldiers who lost their health and most of their future options while being there in your equation. I know people who came back from war service wounded and/or with massive mental problems. I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE GODDAMN SOLDIERS "In my math I am still 1.2bil, two ships and probably some minor implants and 1-2 clones ahead for producing and selling in the trade hubs. Not to mention that I have to spend less time travelling and that I can run missions while you're still sucking in minerals in LowSec." good for you not everyone is where you are. you are part of the forge that makes up the core of eves economy and have no use for taking risk since you make make insane amounts of money. you don't need to take risk to make great reward but not everyone is like that.
Disco Flint Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.04 12:46:00 - [58] Originally by: Merchantigus Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 11:35:50 @ disco flint i'm not saying it's totally full proof I'm not saying it works all the time i'm saying it can be done rather cheaply and by the end of the day you could be wealthy. i'm also saying there is risk vs this reward. you COULD end up missing a few ships or be stuck in the station for a bit..or you could leave very well off. Many people have whinned and whinned saying it can't be done. i'm saying it can but there are risk. if you can't handle that enjoy your veldspare. Just like mr veldspare up there it's risk vs reward. i'm not saying any of this is without risk. i'm saying for that risk there is very great reward waiting. it's something each person must weigh but it can be done is all i'm trying to get across and the two of you have admitted as much. Yes there is great risk. Yes there is great reward. and that's the whole point. it can be done and if the risk doesn't show up and pod you the reward is incredible. ...snipped... First: I never, ever mined in high-sec and I very rarely mine in lowsec, though I admit to having mined ~100m¦ of whatever in my badger on my second day in EVE and I still feel dirty for it :( Second: Even I know that veldspar isn't the only mineral found in high-sec systems. Generalizations concerning high-sec ores are bad mmkay Third: The main problem for mining in low-sec is: There is no RISK of being attacked. Unless you safespot for everyone not known to you there is the CERTAINITY of being attacked. And as pointed out: you can't protect barges. 2-4 salvos from a cruiser will pop a barge. That's maybe 10 seconds he needs to lock and kill one. And one dead barge can very well be the total DAILY income of your mining op. Not very productive, a lousy risk vs reward ratio if you ask me. And if you say: Well, then fit your barges cheap! Then I say: Well, then there's almost as much profit if you mine in highsec with an expensive fitted barge! As it stands now, you have about 2x the income from lowsec mining over highsec mining (8m vs 4m per hour), but you have infinitely more risk (certainity of being shot on sight vs if someone touches me CONCORD will break his fingers. And then continue to kick him in the nuts.). Low-Sec mining, unless you got a few systems pretty much 'safe' and know the locals, is NOT valuable because barges can NOT be protected. Anyone who claims otherwise is just, plain and simply, wrong.
Merchantigus Minmatar Riot Zone	Posted - 2006.12.04 12:57:00 - [59] Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 13:01:23 Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 12:59:59 Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 12:58:37 "First: I never, ever mined in high-sec and I very rarely mine in lowsec, though I admit to having mined ~100m¦ of whatever in my badger on my second day in EVE and I still feel dirty for it :(" ...in the last post you mention mining in high sec because low sec has to much risk then you say. "And if you say: Well, then fit your barges cheap! Then I say: Well, then there's almost as much profit if you mine in highsec with an expensive fitted barge!" before bothering me again you really need to figure out if you mine in high sec or not.. "Low-Sec mining, unless you got a few systems pretty much 'safe' and know the locals" this is one of the points i keep trying to make. use your head the risk goes way down. thanks "is NOT valuable because barges can NOT be protected. Anyone who claims otherwise is just, plain and simply, wrong." unless you use the first part of that thought and tac on bring an ecm frig... "Third: The main problem for mining in low-sec is: There is no RISK of being attacked. Unless you safespot for everyone not known to you there is the CERTAINITY of being attacked. And as pointed out: you can't protect barges. 2-4 salvos from a cruiser will pop a barge. That's maybe 10 seconds he needs to lock and kill one. And one dead barge can very well be the total DAILY income of your mining op. Not very productive, a lousy risk vs reward ratio if you ask me." And if you say: Well, then fit your barges cheap! Then I say: Well, then there's almost as much profit if you mine in highsec with an expensive fitted barge! As it stands now, you have about 2x the income from lowsec mining over highsec mining (8m vs 4m per hour), but you have infinitely more risk (certainity of being shot on sight vs if someone touches me CONCORD will break his fingers. And then continue to kick him in the nuts.). Low-Sec mining, unless you got a few systems pretty much 'safe' and know the locals, is NOT valuable because barges can NOT be protected. Anyone who claims otherwise is just, plain and simply, wrong. that last bit was so messed up i'm just going to plop down what i get from all of it a.you only mine in high sec but have only once done it and you are ashamed. b. there is no risk but there is alot of risk it's imposible but if you watch local it's not. c. once again you mine in high sec all day d. you could make double but it's lousy risk vs reward i'm not goig any farther this is hurting my mind... before you bother me again. 1. figure out if you mine in high sec or not 2. leave high sec for once. i say this because you mention mining in high sec more often than you deny it 3. eh....ok you know what just don't post again... ...from what i can figure out of all that 1. if you watch local(and perhaps bring a frig or two it can be done(but at the same time it's impossible) 2. there is twice the money to be made(atleast he got that right) 3. you have no idea what so ever about what you are talking about...once you figure out what you are trying to say come back and tell my why what i'm saying is wrong(or right? that made so little sense i'm abit confused)
Terdarius	Posted - 2006.12.04 13:01:00 - [60] Originally by: Merchantigus you have no idea what so ever about what you are talking about... eh....ok you know what just don't post again...4 You should really take you're own advice....
Merchantigus Minmatar Riot Zone	Posted - 2006.12.04 13:03:00 - [61] Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 13:03:45 Originally by: Terdarius Originally by: Merchantigus you have no idea what so ever about what you are talking about... eh....ok you know what just don't post again...4 You should really take you're own advice.... wow that was indeed a convincing bit of argument. i think i'll go kill myself now... you may not think i know what i'm saying but i know what i'm talking about.. that guy knew neither
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.12.04 13:03:00 - [62] Originally by: Fuujin Edited by: Fuujin on 04/12/2006 10:12:22 For one, for a group to put 2 people out of a mining op in low sec on cap duty defeats the whole purpose of mining in low sec. Profit. Putting those 2 people behind mining lasers mining scordite will yield you more money then the alternative, much less risk in the process too. 2 counts of complete and utter nonsense in here: 1) Even in high sec it's a good idea to have pilots flying as a cap in case of Ore Thieves. That said, see below for just how much more lucrative mining in lowsec is. 2) In Lowsec you can make tons more income mining. Find hedbergite (which has zydrine in it) and you will net 4-5 times the value of scordite and you can mine it very easily with just standard strip miners or miner II's. You don't even need specific crystals for it (though they do make it faster). Matter of fact it's more profitable to just find a few belts with hedbergite ore and mine JUST the hedbergite than to strip an entire system in high sec. Quote: Second there's the issue of them being able to defend such an endeavor WITHOUT taking losses. More often then not lowsec pirates fly around in groups. Even when they're alone they're usually more then well fitted for quickly dispaching an enemy and getting out of there if need be to come back and pick off another. Even for experienced people with low sec this can sometimes be an issue. Utter nonsense. Any corp worth a damn can fly plenty of miners and a combat ship group flying cover. You'd only need maybe 10 pilots to pull something like this off with maybe 3 or 4 of them flying cover. Though more of EVERYTHING is better it is NOT necessary. Quote: I've seen a single pilgrim pilot take out several ships in a mining party, even with cap. It's not a rare occurence what so ever. Then both your miners and your cap pilots are morons. Sorry but true. I've been in NUMEROUS 0.0 and Lowsec mining ops and we've NEVER taken a loss during one. As long as everyone stays aligned and folks bolt when a pirate is spotted it's not an issue. Key is to have EWAR pilots in the cap group. Quote: It's not worth the payout, it's as simple as that and it doesn't work nearly as easily as you put it. Yes it is, by far. And yes it does. Easily. As I said. I've been in dozens of these types of ops and never seen a loss yet. Not just in TSA either. Just because you haven't SEEN it done doesn't mean it can't be done. If it couldn't then how do you explain how other corps manage to do it?
DarkFenix Caldari Pilots From Honour	Posted - 2006.12.04 13:05:00 - [63] Merch you really are clueless aren't you. You spout a load of ill-informed c**p about low sec mining. Pretty much everyone else in this thread has pointed out that you're wrong. Does it not occur to you that these people probably know better than you? Low sec mining isn't worth the risk, unless you can find yourself some kind of backwater system in the middle of nowhere, which means you spend ages hauling the damned stuff. In my experience, just mine empire or 0.0, nothing else is worth it.
Merchantigus Minmatar Riot Zone	Posted - 2006.12.04 13:05:00 - [64] Originally by: Taram Caldar Originally by: Fuujin Edited by: Fuujin on 04/12/2006 10:12:22 For one, for a group to put 2 people out of a mining op in low sec on cap duty defeats the whole purpose of mining in low sec. Profit. Putting those 2 people behind mining lasers mining scordite will yield you more money then the alternative, much less risk in the process too. 2 counts of complete and utter nonsense in here: 1) Even in high sec it's a good idea to have pilots flying as a cap in case of Ore Thieves. That said, see below for just how much more lucrative mining in lowsec is. 2) In Lowsec you can make tons more income mining. Find hedbergite (which has zydrine in it) and you will net 4-5 times the value of scordite and you can mine it very easily with just standard strip miners or miner II's. You don't even need specific crystals for it (though they do make it faster). Matter of fact it's more profitable to just find a few belts with hedbergite ore and mine JUST the hedbergite than to strip an entire system in high sec. Quote: Second there's the issue of them being able to defend such an endeavor WITHOUT taking losses. More often then not lowsec pirates fly around in groups. Even when they're alone they're usually more then well fitted for quickly dispaching an enemy and getting out of there if need be to come back and pick off another. Even for experienced people with low sec this can sometimes be an issue. Utter nonsense. Any corp worth a damn can fly plenty of miners and a combat ship group flying cover. You'd only need maybe 10 pilots to pull something like this off with maybe 3 or 4 of them flying cover. Though more of EVERYTHING is better it is NOT necessary. Quote: I've seen a single pilgrim pilot take out several ships in a mining party, even with cap. It's not a rare occurence what so ever. Then both your miners and your cap pilots are morons. Sorry but true. I've been in NUMEROUS 0.0 and Lowsec mining ops and we've NEVER taken a loss during one. As long as everyone stays aligned and folks bolt when a pirate is spotted it's not an issue. Key is to have EWAR pilots in the cap group. Quote: It's not worth the payout, it's as simple as that and it doesn't work nearly as easily as you put it. Yes it is, by far. And yes it does. Easily. As I said. I've been in dozens of these types of ops and never seen a loss yet. Not just in TSA either. Just because you haven't SEEN it done doesn't mean it can't be done. If it couldn't then how do you explain how other corps manage to do it? thank you jesus that's two people so far that aren't clueless. hugs leg
Tachy	Posted - 2006.12.04 13:07:00 - [65] Originally by: Merchantigus [...]you are part of the forge that makes up the core of eves economy and have no use for taking risk since you make make insane amounts of money. you don't need to take risk to make great reward but not everyone is like that. What keeps you from buying a frigate BPO or BPC and doing the same? All you need for that is a handful days of skill training and a couple Isk for high end minerals. You can easily mine the lowend minerals in HiSec. Okay, you have to move out of Minmatar space for a certain type, but the basics are the same. Training and skilling up for an industrial is a no brainer once you get your shipyard running so you can transport the cheaper ores and minerals from a few systems away. Please do not buy justany BP and check the market first. Burst is not a ship many pilots buy repeatedly. --==*-- The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait \| 2006.09.20
Merchantigus Minmatar Riot Zone	Posted - 2006.12.04 13:07:00 - [66] "Merch you really are clueless aren't you. You spout a load of ill-informed cp about low sec mining. Pretty much everyone else in this thread has pointed out that you're wrong. Does it not occur to you that these people probably know better than you?" except for the few people that are bright enough to know and do exactly what i'm talking about.... "Low sec mining isn't worth the risk, unless you can find yourself some kind of backwater system in the middle of nowhere, which means you spend ages hauling the damned stuff. In my experience, just mine empire or 0.0, nothing else is worth it." 1 .0 makes more money no ** 2 low sec can either make more or less than high sec..thus it's in the middle wow imagine that.
Merchantigus Minmatar Riot Zone	Posted - 2006.12.04 13:09:00 - [67] Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 13:17:17 Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 13:15:28 Originally by: Tachy Originally by: Merchantigus [...]you are part of the forge that makes up the core of eves economy and have no use for taking risk since you make make insane amounts of money. you don't need to take risk to make great reward but not everyone is like that. What keeps you from buying a frigate BPO or BPC and doing the same? All you need for that is a handful days of skill training and a couple Isk for high end minerals. You can easily mine the lowend minerals in HiSec. Okay, you have to move out of Minmatar space for a certain type, but the basics are the same. Training and skilling up for an industrial is a no brainer once you get your shipyard running so you can transport the cheaper ores and minerals from a few systems away. Please do not buy justany BP and check the market first. Burst is not a ship many pilots buy repeatedly. yes there is **loads of money to be made in production but that isn't what this post is about. i admit i know nothing about making ships and would never argue with a shipwright about it. you are right. however shiprights aren't miners. once again they are the production people and not who/what this post is about. and what keeps me from doing it is what keeps people from taking risk or pvping. it's just not my thing. i'm not saying becoming part of the forge is a bad thing. i'm not saying NOT taking risk is a bad thing. i'm not saying everyone needs to take these risk. i'm saying there is alot money to be made i'm low sec but there are some risk... btw shipwrights and forge people. you make my ships and guns and i nearly worhsip you :) rules of eve: trust no one dont fly what you cant afford to lose NEVER ** off the forge guilds lol
Tachy	Posted - 2006.12.04 13:22:00 - [68] Well, I did my share of mining. That's how I started. I have a couple of barges and other mining ships sitting all over the place, from HiSec to NulSec. If my production runs low on minerals I still go mine on occasion when I disagree with the local mineral market. But mining in LowSec isn't worth it. It wasn't last week, it isn't this week, and I do not see it being worth the risk next week. The chance to lose the mining ship and the industrial within 2 hours is about 90% in my experience. Unless you dock or log out as soon as anyone enters the system. But then the possible gain drops drastically. Mining in an area without production or market doesn't cut it as you have to transport your goods and that takes your time again. --==*-- The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait \| 2006.09.20
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.12.04 13:25:00 - [69] Edited by: Taram Caldar on 04/12/2006 13:27:00 Edited by: Taram Caldar on 04/12/2006 13:25:30 Originally by: DarkFenix Merch you really are clueless aren't you. You spout a load of ill-informed c**p about low sec mining. Pretty much everyone else in this thread has pointed out that you're wrong. Does it not occur to you that these people probably know better than you? Low sec mining isn't worth the risk, unless you can find yourself some kind of backwater system in the middle of nowhere, which means you spend ages hauling the damned stuff. In my experience, just mine empire or 0.0, nothing else is worth it. While I agree he presents his arguement badly he's not clueless nor wrong. I've been in many corps in my career in EVE. Some big (ASCN) others smaller. In each and every one we have done mining ops in lowsec and/or 0.0. In every situation if you have a competent group of pilots flying cover a mining op is relatively safe and is far more profitable than high sec mining. If it weren't nobody would do it. . Period. You can make a much higher profit mining in lowsec/0.0. It takes a bit of planning, a lot of coordination and good communication (Voice comms FTW). But it can and is done, daily. I understand that you may or may not wish to take the risk but telling him he's wrong when there is oodles of proof that he is not is just ludicrous. I will agree, however, that thinking a couple frigs can fly cover is pretty short-sighted. You need a GOOD cap group, preferably with a couple EWAR pilots.
Disco Flint Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.04 13:27:00 - [70] Originally by: Merchantigus snipped for clarity's sake that last bit was so messed up i'm just going to plop down what i get from all of it a.you only mine in high sec but have only once done it and you are ashamed. My 'I only mined once in high-sec' was just a witty remark concerning the 'Mr. Veldspar is all there is in highsec'. I'm not ashamed of it, it was just stupid to do since pretty much anything is more profitable than mining veld in a badger. Originally by: Merchantigus b. there is no risk but there is alot of risk it's imposible but if you watch local it's not. c. once again you mine in high sec all day d. you could make double but it's lousy risk vs reward ... what? Low-Sec = double reward for infinitely higher risk. Do the math. About c.) I could make all kinds of hilarious, sarcastic, self-ironic jokes. But for the sake of my own sanity I wont. Originally by: Merchantigus i'm not goig any farther this is hurting my mind... before you bother me again. 1. figure out if you mine in high sec or not I don't. Originally by: Merchantigus 2. leave high sec for once. i say this because you mention mining in high sec more often than you deny it I can't even fly a frikkin barge. Originally by: Merchantigus 3. eh....ok you know what just don't post again... Ok, I'll try. Whoops. Originally by: Merchantigus ...from what i can figure out of all that 1. if you watch local(and perhaps bring a frig or two it can be done(but at the same time it's impossible) It can be done if you safespot as soon as someone enters local. And at exactly this point you start losing income, which in turn makes your low-sec mining op not valuable. Originally by: Merchantigus 2. there is twice the money to be made(atleast he got that right) In a theoretical system where you a safe from ebil people, yes. Originally by: Merchantigus 3. you have no idea what so ever about what you are talking about...once you figure out what you are trying to say come back and tell my why what i'm saying is wrong(or right? that made so little sense i'm abit confused) Ok. Here goes again. YOU CAN'T PROTECT BARGES IN LOWSEC. NO ESCORT IN THE WORLD CAN STOP THE BAD GUY FROM WARPING IN ON YOU AND POPPING YOUR MINING OP. There. I typed that with shift by the way, no need to tell me "CAPS zomg!". I hope I'm clearer this time.
Merchantigus Minmatar Riot Zone	Posted - 2006.12.04 13:37:00 - [71] Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 13:39:00 "My 'I only mined once in high-sec' was just a witty remark concerning the 'Mr. Veldspar is all there is in highsec'. I'm not ashamed of it, it was just stupid to do since pretty much anything is more profitable than mining veld in a badger." ...k "... what? Low-Sec = double reward for infinitely higher risk. Do the math. About c.) I could make all kinds of hilarious, sarcastic, self-ironic jokes. But for the sake of my own sanity I wont." Nanu Nanu!(google if you aren't old enough) "I can't even fly a frikkin barge." who the **** said anything about a barge? and if i did mention one somewhere what does it have to do with anything? "It can be done if you safespot as soon as someone enters local. And at exactly this point you start losing income, which in turn makes your low-sec mining op not valuable." tell that to the guy above you and the other guy... "Ok. Here goes again. YOU CAN'T PROTECT BARGES IN LOWSEC. NO ESCORT IN THE WORLD CAN STOP THE BAD GUY FROM WARPING IN ON YOU AND POPPING YOUR MINING OP. There. I typed that with shift by the way, no need to tell me "CAPS zomg!". I hope I'm clearer this time." Yes you finally posted something coherent..btw the other two guys mine and do well in low sec... if we can do it and you can't think you might be missing something?
Ishana Minmatar The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.04 13:43:00 - [72] Edited by: Ishana on 04/12/2006 13:43:22 You know what, you are right. Ignore all these people who say it can't be done. Low sec mining is completely worth it, please everyone come and mine in low sec. I recommend the Mito constelation I hear there is really good ore there. _________________________________________________________
Merchantigus Minmatar Riot Zone	Posted - 2006.12.04 13:45:00 - [73] Originally by: Ishana Edited by: Ishana on 04/12/2006 13:43:22 You know what, you are right. Ignore all these people who say it can't be done. Low sec mining is completely worth it, please everyone come and mine in low sec. I recommend the Mito constelation I hear there is really good ore there. chuckle stop by the regions outlaying syndicate as well
Disco Flint Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.04 13:51:00 - [74] Edited by: Disco Flint on 04/12/2006 13:52:35 Originally by: Merchantigus "It can be done if you safespot as soon as someone enters local. And at exactly this point you start losing income, which in turn makes your low-sec mining op not valuable." tell that to the guy above you and the other guy... "Ok. Here goes again. YOU CAN'T PROTECT BARGES IN LOWSEC. NO ESCORT IN THE WORLD CAN STOP THE BAD GUY FROM WARPING IN ON YOU AND POPPING YOUR MINING OP. There. I typed that with shift by the way, no need to tell me "CAPS zomg!". I hope I'm clearer this time." Yes you finally posted something coherent..btw the other two guys mine and do well in low sec... if we can do it and you can't think you might be missing something? Yessem, the guy above me and perhaps the 'other guy', too were talking about big coordinated mining ops, with a lot of fire support available. Not your previously mentioned 5 miner, 2 escort frig mining op. Originally by: Merchantigus "I can't even fly a frikkin barge." who the **** said anything about a barge? and if i did mention one somewhere what does it have to do with anything? Oh, that's style, huh? Quoting someone out of context without showing why that person actually said that. Anyway... To clarify and correct myself once more: I am talking about the five to ten person mining op, presumably unexperienced players doing it for money (Not building anything, just selling the minerals). I am not talking about high skilled and veteran alliance players doing it for minerals needed for their own mods and ships. Again I'm very sorry for any brain damage caused by my posts. edited for speeling
Merchantigus Minmatar Riot Zone	Posted - 2006.12.04 13:57:00 - [75] Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 14:21:53 "Oh, that's style, huh? Quoting someone out of context without showing why that person actually said that." That wasn't out of context that's all you said. i coppied your words in their entirety. dont make post that make no sense what so ever and perhaps they wont be taken out of context? or maybe if they are it will somehow come off making more sense in the end...i think i just hurt myself..or was it you? who the **** knows anymore. "To clarify and correct myself once more: I am talking about the five to ten person mining op, presumably unexperienced players doing it for money (Not building anything, just selling the minerals). I am not talking about high skilled and veteran alliance players doing it for minerals needed for their own mods and ships." so are the rest of us. mr acsn up there said he had done both. the other guy does it alone. and i did both the first time i played and hauled for both types(told you my skills were all over the place)
DarkFenix Caldari Pilots From Honour	Posted - 2006.12.04 14:40:00 - [76] Originally by: Merchantigus "Merch you really are clueless aren't you. You spout a load of ill-informed cp about low sec mining. Pretty much everyone else in this thread has pointed out that you're wrong. Does it not occur to you that these people probably know better than you?" except for the few people that are bright enough to know and do exactly what i'm talking about.... "Low sec mining isn't worth the risk, unless you can find yourself some kind of backwater system in the middle of nowhere, which means you spend ages hauling the damned stuff. In my experience, just mine empire or 0.0, nothing else is worth it." 1 .0 makes more money no ** 2 low sec can either make more or less than high sec..thus it's in the middle wow imagine that. Ok since your mental capacity is insufficient to think along anything but the rigid lines you've laid, I'll go right back to your original post. You blather on in your original post about how easy it is to scare off low sec pirates. News flash, it isn't. If a bunch of pirates want to destroy your mining op, they're going to do it no matter what measures you put in place to stop them. On pvp ops I happily step into a t1 cruiser with the utter certainty I'm coming back to empire via my clone. I'll gladly warp into a large mining op with a heavy escort and make a suicide run on a couple of barges. That is precisely why low sec mining isn't any good, and the reason you're not going to scare off pirates with a few puny escort ships. If you have enough escort ships to sufficiently protect your op, you're making extremely inefficient use of time and would be better off mining veldspar in a 1.0. The bottom line is mining ops are easy meat for pirates whatever you do. There is no way to stop them without compromising your profitability. The only way to scare them off? Be a pvp corp. Wardec them. Lots of skill points they may have, but they're not the brightest or most skillful bunch, and they don't like it when real pvpers come after them. They probably get soft from all the veldspar fumes from the miners they pop.
Daos Leghki Paxton Industries	Posted - 2006.12.04 15:10:00 - [77] I'll agree that it is totally possible to mine in low-sec safely if you have 5-7 ships flying cover and are well organized. That being said, if you've got that all set up, you might as well have everyone mine in high-sec, or keep the same ratio of escorts to miners and mine in 0.0. That's really the problem, when you're good enough for low-sec, you're good enough for 0.0. Oh, and not all 0.0 is shut off by alliances. Repopulate Low-Sec Paxton Industries is Recruiting
Roshan longshot Gallente Ordos Humanitas	Posted - 2006.12.04 15:10:00 - [78] I got it! No really your love this one! Tommorrow during down time. Every player logged out in Jita is transported 45 jumps from Jita, in a random direction. Then those that survive the return to jita will know how unsafe staying there 24-7 really is!! Would be a hoot!! Too bad its December and not April, heh? Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter *pirate* or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.
Shayla Sh'inlux Gallente The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:09:00 - [79] Where do you guys mine? I'll be happy to bring 2 friends and show you wrong. This is how it goes: * Covert Ops alt scouts out operation. Makes perfect warp-in. * Pirate ships jump in and are in warp to operation before they even have the system loaded (using portrait trick). * Mining operation goes 'omfg help pirates run run". * Pirates enter belt, lock barge, kill it and catch hauler who was in warp when all of this happens as well. Pirates loot strip miners and expanders and run out while being jammed (if that) by escort ships. Otherwise they kill escort ships. * Pirates leave system. Covert Ops stays behind. * 30 minutes later, mining operation resumes in a different belt. Covert Ops scouts out operation. Rinse and repeat. I used to be in a bear corp and I actually did mine (or actually, protect) lowsec mining ops. What we would do is find a system with only two gates and sit on the gates to watch incoming traffic instead of relying on local. In my 8-heavy drone Platerax I felt comfortable enough to engage a Battleship with the sentries on my side. It was craptacular isk/hour cos we ended up having to warp off all the time because some tards in Scorpions would ruin our day. Of course this was all before hedbergite gave Zydrine, but this was also in the most quiet part of Eve-Space when we had 10k PCU on busy sundays. Short version: anyone claiming mining in lowsec is profitable is a liar. Sure, it's fun for the challenge but it's FAR from profitable. I a pirate. Mine in a system less than 5 jumps away from me and you're guaranteed the loss of a few ships and cancellation of your operation. Well, unless you have a carrier run escort duty in which case you'll STILL lose the barge and I'll just lose whatever insurable t1 cruiser I was killing your barge with. Originally by: "Cy4n1d3" You can't PVP with 4 mids.
Dra0cht	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:26:00 - [80] Originally by: Ishana it's not 0.0 that is broken actually it's more the whole pos/sov/capital thing that is no were near balanced atm. It's boring as hell and after months of pos warfare it's anything but fun. When a game starts feeling like a job, you should realy evaluate what you're doing, and that's what allot of us did. Yup, most definately, 100% QFT. For me 1 word sums up 0.0 BORING Same old same old, todo PvP there is all about gang up and numbers, no real skill in it at all any more, just get the numbers, and gank. And then there's the whole holding territory thing, my gawd, all about POS numbers, and eventually it gets to the point where its like a bloomin job, I mean what is that all about? Nope, low sec is where lots of ex-o.o dwellers are living, where you can actually 'play' a game, and not have to obcess about EVE like its a part or even full-time profession.
DefJam101 Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.04 17:11:00 - [81] Originally by: Merchantigus Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 10:02:19 low sec. The reason there are so many pirates is because there is so much easy prey. fight back and the noobs will find something else to do if the easy money dries up. 1. dont go out mining alone. 2 noobs in frigs are enough to run off/escape most pirates 2. dont run around ratting with only one type of resist/dmg type. There are so many ways to foil a pirate in low sec yet none of them are done. then you all come on the forums and whine about it. it's amazing. Most of the pirates in low sec were gate camping noobs now most of the pirates in low sec have either given up or starting hunting people in missions but they are still noobs with a jammer. sure there may be a few big fish out there but i spend alot of time in low sec and i've only run into 1 big ship so far. "if you don't wanna to get **ed on move cha out tha way!" simple as that to the people whining about it being empty: yep. you noobed all the fish to death. sure it's their own fault but our food supply has been hunted to non existance. after you get your feet on the ground move to .0 and stop being a *. The reason jita is so clogged is because it's the only place to get things. you think i and many others enjoy running to jita all the time? you dont think we'd much rather pay more to get it all in one spot and not have to jump halfway across the universe? ffs spread it out youselves. one man in a frieghter could not only make a large fortune but also make a large dint in the jita problem. and that's just one person. at the very least i have to make 8 jumps just to get a ship then i have to make 15 more running around gathering stuff up. if it was all in one place a few jumps away do you not think people would be willing to pay more for it? add that into how cheap things are in jita and you just got yourself a fortune. Eve is all about the players. eve is what YOU not ccp makes of it. whinning and whinning for artificial controls to counter stupidity is not the way to do it. it's your sandbox make a footprint and change it yourself. What makes eve eve is this freedom and the more people whine it out of existance the less of a soul it has. If there is a counter no adjustment is needed. there are plenty of very simple counters. it's not ccps fault you wont do them. Eve is one of the few places left on this earth where the laws of nature apply to humans. if whinners somehow destroy that be... well there aren't words. Eve is a sandbox full of ants. you guys are like "wHAaaa the cookies is all in one place i do likes it!". sooo move the damn cookies yourself? when even ants are outsmarting you it's never a good sign Your an idiot. *
Merchantigus Minmatar Riot Zone	Posted - 2006.12.04 17:49:00 - [82] Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 17:54:39 Life fuel boosters selling for 20k near jita selling for 300k on the fringes Ogre I selling for 39k in jita area selling for 70k on the frignes. just two examples i gabbed while i was passing through. 20k--->300k If you dont see the money in this you just ended up below the sub ant people. there is a huge void out here waiting to be filled and if people started to fill it alot of pressure would come off of jita. I'm just assuming the name calling was on behalf of the jita part. if it was on behalf of the low sec part read the thread and see where it went. Also i just went to forge and back without even seeing a pirate. i could of flown through the entrance with 30 pod kills but i looked at something called "the map" and simply went around it. It's that simple.. since so many of you think i'm a total "idiot" for noticing this so be it. i've sold off all i had to start to profit off of it. the more "wonderfull people" that don't get it the better for me now and judging from the responces buisness should be good for a while. enjoy high sec :)
DarkFenix Caldari Pilots From Honour	Posted - 2006.12.04 17:55:00 - [83] It's simple competition, the merchants all compete in Jita and that drives prices down, similarly Jita is in competition with the fringe worlds for customers, and beats them all hands down. Merchants know dead cert that they can sell their stuff in Jita, and people pay a lot of money for reliability and convenience.
Dolly Parton Amarr 5punkorp Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.04 17:56:00 - [84] Originally by: Merchantigus Edited by: Merchantigus on 04/12/2006 10:02:19 low sec. The reason there are so many pirates is because there is so much easy prey. fight back and the noobs will find something else to do if the easy money dries up. 1. dont go out mining alone. 2 noobs in frigs are enough to run off/escape most pirates 2. dont run around ratting with only one type of resist/dmg type. There are so many ways to foil a pirate in low sec yet none of them are done. then you all come on the forums and whine about it. it's amazing. Most of the pirates in low sec were gate camping noobs now most of the pirates in low sec have either given up or starting hunting people in missions but they are still noobs with a jammer. sure there may be a few big fish out there but i spend alot of time in low sec and i've only run into 1 big ship so far. "if you don't wanna to get **ed on move cha out tha way!" simple as that to the people whining about it being empty: yep. you noobed all the fish to death. sure it's their own fault but our food supply has been hunted to non existance. after you get your feet on the ground move to .0 and stop being a *. The reason jita is so clogged is because it's the only place to get things. you think i and many others enjoy running to jita all the time? you dont think we'd much rather pay more to get it all in one spot and not have to jump halfway across the universe? ffs spread it out youselves. one man in a frieghter could not only make a large fortune but also make a large dint in the jita problem. and that's just one person. at the very least i have to make 8 jumps just to get a ship then i have to make 15 more running around gathering stuff up. if it was all in one place a few jumps away do you not think people would be willing to pay more for it? add that into how cheap things are in jita and you just got yourself a fortune. Eve is all about the players. eve is what YOU not ccp makes of it. whinning and whinning for artificial controls to counter stupidity is not the way to do it. it's your sandbox make a footprint and change it yourself. What makes eve eve is this freedom and the more people whine it out of existance the less of a soul it has. If there is a counter no adjustment is needed. there are plenty of very simple counters. it's not ccps fault you wont do them. Eve is one of the few places left on this earth where the laws of nature apply to humans. if whinners somehow destroy that be... well there aren't words. Eve is a sandbox full of ants. you guys are like "wHAaaa the cookies is all in one place i do likes it!". sooo move the damn cookies yourself? when even ants are outsmarting you it's never a good sign ANYONE STARTING A THREAD, PRO OR CON AND CAN'T SHOW WHO THEIR MAIN CHARACTER IS DOES NOT DESERVE THE TIME TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY. Now go get a life or go play wow cause your ruining my forum thread reading with your senseless whining aka *ing. * Any comments made are mine and mine alone! ***
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.12.04 18:58:00 - [85] Edited by: Taram Caldar on 04/12/2006 18:58:14 Originally by: DarkFenix It's simple competition, the merchants all compete in Jita and that drives prices down, similarly Jita is in competition with the fringe worlds for customers, and beats them all hands down. Merchants know dead cert that they can sell their stuff in Jita, and people pay a lot of money for reliability and convenience. I love people that don't believe you can sell anywhere but Jita. Please keep going to jita to sell things. I'll continue to buy them relatively cheaply and selling them on the fringes at a nearly 100% markup. I don't do it often but it can be done. You have to leave things listed longer than you do in jita but you can make a much higher profit margin off it. I funded my first T2 fitted raven doing that. Buy low, sell high... lovin' it.
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.12.04 19:02:00 - [86] Edited by: Taram Caldar on 04/12/2006 19:05:53 Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux Where do you guys mine? I'll be happy to bring 2 friends and show you wrong. This is how it goes: * Covert Ops alt scouts out operation. Makes perfect warp-in. * Pirate ships jump in and are in warp to operation before they even have the system loaded (using portrait trick). * Mining operation goes 'omfg help pirates run run". * Pirates enter belt, lock barge, kill it and catch hauler who was in warp when all of this happens as well. Pirates loot strip miners and expanders and run out while being jammed (if that) by escort ships. Otherwise they kill escort ships. * Pirates leave system. Covert Ops stays behind. * 30 minutes later, mining operation resumes in a different belt. Covert Ops scouts out operation. Rinse and repeat. I used to be in a bear corp and I actually did mine (or actually, protect) lowsec mining ops. What we would do is find a system with only two gates and sit on the gates to watch incoming traffic instead of relying on local. In my 8-heavy drone Platerax I felt comfortable enough to engage a Battleship with the sentries on my side. It was craptacular isk/hour cos we ended up having to warp off all the time because some tards in Scorpions would ruin our day. Of course this was all before hedbergite gave Zydrine, but this was also in the most quiet part of Eve-Space when we had 10k PCU on busy sundays. Short version: anyone claiming mining in lowsec is profitable is a liar. Sure, it's fun for the challenge but it's FAR from profitable. I a pirate. Mine in a system less than 5 jumps away from me and you're guaranteed the loss of a few ships and cancellation of your operation. Well, unless you have a carrier run escort duty in which case you'll STILL lose the barge and I'll just lose whatever insurable t1 cruiser I was killing your barge with. With the current condition of ECM this might be possible now. Previously any decent EWAR pilot would have those ships jammed the second they came out of warp. You do know that you can be seen warping in approximately 200km before you reach the group? When I flew cap in my blackbird I always watched overview and immediately selected anyone I saw warping in... then started spamming lock (with appropriate racial jammer active). We always had 2-3 blackbirds (or other EWAR ships) flying cover. And no, we didn't lose anything by doing that because they were pilots that wouldn't have been mining anyway. We got our money from the loot we got from popping rats that spawned in the area. Haven't tried it since they kicked ECM in the teeth though. Its probably a lot harder to lock folks down now. I've temporarily given up flying EWAR ships till ECM gets some kind of attention. EWAR specific ships (other than the rook) are barely better than pre-revelations standard ships were, even if you have full ECM mods in the lows and ECM mods in the rigs.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.04 22:24:00 - [87] Originally by: Dolly Parton ANYONE STARTING A THREAD, PRO OR CON AND CAN'T SHOW WHO THEIR MAIN CHARACTER IS DOES NOT DESERVE THE TIME TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY. You do realize that there are entire threads of player who have been here more than a year and their mains still don't show their portraits? Not that the OP's arguements are valid or I don't agree with you.... To the OP: I would like to know where I can find these nice safe systems to mine in where 2 frigates can protect your mining ops. It obviously isn't in our area of space. Every time I go into lowsec I have to run gate camps and station camps, snipers, etc. Its now just second nature to use my "Free once every 4 hour" decline mission skill. We decided to try some lowsec mining. Small corp, mostly newer players. Most have been in game less than 6 months, with some fresh out of academy. Over one weekend and using our more experienced and equiped players we tried mining. Result? We lost no miners. We lost no haulers. We DID lose 2 Ravyns, 3 cruisers and a BC. We were getting attacked by everything up to and including 2 BSs at a time. Not very profitable, we moved back to high sec and are happily providing minerals for those who need them. It doesn't matter if the reward 2x higher in lowsec if the risk is 100x higher. <-----------> MMORPG == Massively Moronic Online Raw Powergaming Grief fests.... http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=426616 LowSec != NoSec
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.12.04 23:11:00 - [88] Edited by: Plutoinum on 04/12/2006 23:15:41 There are two strategies to stay alive: 1) be stronger than your opponent 2) be able to avoid an engagement If you don't know your opponent(s) and are totally unsure, if you might be strong enough to deal with an attack or not, but want to stay alive, then you choose strategy two of course. Most carebears get those two things right. They aren't stupid and mine with a barge in a crowded low sec. system. They rather stay in high sec. Most low sec and 0.0 runners solve it differently. They team-up ( strategy 1 ) or choose quiet systems and proper intel as in ( strategy 2) or a combination of both. It's a no-brainer and explains, why people play, how they play. I'd say those, who don't follow strategy one or two are the ones, who die a lot. /edit ok, missed the alternative 3) being able to escape in an engagement, if the odds are against you. Typical example the rmr-stabbabond. CTD/con-loss vs. log-out. A proposal for a fix.
Bartholomeus Crane Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2006.12.04 23:47:00 - [89] The problem with 0.0 is that the established player corps are embedded and the new player corps aren't strong enough to break in. I'm not even going to mention alliances here. Whole sectors of 0.0 lay bare because no new corps can get (in)to them. Defense is too easy and attack too costly, especially if you had time to build up your defenses (POS spaming anyone?). With the introduction of more 'infrastructure', I believe this will only get worse in the future. So far, the only reason I've seen for an established corps to go belly-up is because they lose faith (got bored?). It's not a risk-reward problem, reward in low sec/0.0 is skewed more than enough as it is. Rewarding 0.0 even more will not attract more people into it, it will just strengthen the base of the people already there. This is especially true with the localised and static availability of highly profitable resources (yeah, I'm talking about farming complexes etc.). It is the problem that, without consent, or at least help from an 'uncle', it is not feasible to fight your way into 0.0. Never mind solo-ing it in 0.0, even dedicated small groups are forced into large corps and alliances. The stagnation and empire hugging are simply a result of this. If CCP makes 0.0 doable/profitable for solo/small gang/small corps-affairs, then the real (re)population of 0.0 will begin. Until that time, 0.0 will remain the sandbox for the few (of whatever description you would like to give them). It should be clear by now that, if it is a question of join it or not go there at all, the majority of players are not interested in joining (hence the overcrowded empire space). For the somewhat dense out there: corps are not attractive enough as they are now (several reasons for this). From the above, a remedie can be derived. I'll leave this as an exercise for the reader. Frankly, based on previous experience, I don't expect any. All the whining and noob-calling (or ant-calling, of all things) of the OP; I couldn't care less about. -- Drone users unite! Support drone whinage

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