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Kali Ultimately fails to deliver beyond the new T1 ships.

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Ghoest	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:13:00 - [1] I say this as some one with 25 mill sp, 5 lvl4 research agents and good astrometrics skills. -Invention is a hard to use, expensive mess. -Salvage/rigs are so time intensive that Im better off just ratting and putting the isk toward pirate implants if I want something absurdly over priced with a modest benifit. -Astrometrics seems to have only acomplished making high sec mission running more profitable than low sec mission running. -Warp to 0 is cool, but content wise its nothing, that could have been done with any patch. -The new ships are a fun because they are new, balance wise they are a non-issue, so I guess they are a psitive. Wherever you went - here you are.
Mithrantir Ob'lontra Gallente Ixion Defence Systems The Cyrene Initiative	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:23:00 - [2] Although i am a lot younger than you, and that means in a bigger hole than you are concerning invention and rigs, i have to say this. We must wait and see how it will proceed in the future months. To see it only for a week or a couple of weeks and place a judgment is a little hasty i think. The rigs won't cost as much as the rumors say and i think that neither the new ships will cost the prices i am seeing so far. That said i can't use invention at the moment, i can't use salvage at the moment and i am frankly relying on my corp/alliance to help me with these matters, until i have the relative skills trained (i am following a specific training plan that does not included these skills). Still the impression i got from the discussion i had within the afore mentioned corp/alliance, the salvage and rig building is something of a team play and not easily done solo. If you are a solo player i am sorry but this will be hard for you. Sorry but the solution lies on your decisions. ------- Nobody can be exactly like me. Even I have trouble doing it.
Niccolado Starwalker	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:23:00 - [3] Originally by: Ghoest I say this as some one with 25 mill sp, 5 lvl4 research agents and good astrometrics skills. -Invention is a hard to use, expensive mess. -Salvage/rigs are so time intensive that Im better off just ratting and putting the isk toward pirate implants if I want something absurdly over priced with a modest benifit. -Astrometrics seems to have only acomplished making high sec mission running more profitable than low sec mission running. -Warp to 0 is cool, but content wise its nothing, that could have been done with any patch. -The new ships are a fun because they are new, balance wise they are a non-issue, so I guess they are a psitive. - New ships is great - Complete revamp of market is great. Some sorting probs tho. - Exploration, seamless map. Great! - New regions!! 8 of em! Fantastic! - Much More! Also remember, more will come soon! This was part 1 out of 3. All in all, I think they deliver a quite a good publish....
D2O HeavyWater Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:36:00 - [4] Local with standings = awsome Warp core stabs nerf = awsome New scanner = awsome seamless map = poo still got logoffski = poo still huge lag = poo
Makree Ubar Asteroid Hugging Collective	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:37:00 - [5] Edited by: Makree on 04/12/2006 16:37:03 I'm in the middle. Not a fanboi that thinks CCP can do no wrong. Not a desperate trekkie waiting to jump ship. I'm not a manufacturer and only use the market/escrow to buy things. So all the changes there pretty much pass me by. The changes to scanning are good, but I'm the damage dealer not the covert ops pilot. So again the changes pass me by. The new ships may be fine, dunno, I won't pay the stupid prices that they command in the first few weeks of release. So I will have to wait till I pass judgement on them. So that pretty much leaves WTZ and the changes to local showing the standings as the only changes that affect me now. But these are cool cause now I can use my friends and family list for the purpose it was meant for.
Kylania Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:37:00 - [6] Originally by: Ghoest -Invention is a hard to use, expensive mess. It's supposed to be, that's the whole point. It was put in for an alternate method of getting T2 BPCs, not a quick and easy method of getting T2 BPCs. Originally by: Ghoest -Salvage/rigs are so time intensive that Im better off just ratting and putting the isk toward pirate implants if I want something absurdly over priced with a modest benifit. You're probably doing things like you did when we just looted cans. You can't do that. You really need a dedicated salvage ship to get the most out of this, salvaging isn't the "new looting", it's a whole new method of gathering resources. An Exequor with three Salvager Is and a Tractor Beam can effortlessly salvage and loot an entire field of cans in the time it used to take to loot it all. Originally by: Ghoest -Astrometrics seems to have only acomplished making high sec mission running more profitable than low sec mission running. My current astrometrics skills are too low to use probes, but it sounds more like it's being used to ruin rather than run high sec missions. Due to low skills I haven't tried out the exploration part of the patch yet, but I'm happy it's there for when I've trained up to use it. Originally by: Ghoest -Warp to 0 is cool, but content wise its nothing, that could have been done with any patch. You can't simply discount part of the patch you like because it could have been done in any patch, that's just silly. This is obviously part of Kali you felt "delivered", so you should change your title to reflect that. Originally by: Ghoest -The new ships are a fun because they are new, balance wise they are a non-issue, so I guess they are a psitive. Can't afford these new ships due to "z0mg it's new" greed happening these days, but they look cool and from what I've heard perform well for the most part. As for Revelations itself, you're forgetting the 8 new regions, HP increase, ammo changes, the new star map features and options, rigs itself (a higher end feature which will become more important later on), the new enhanced character creation tool, far more gang features, corp management improvements, Contracts system, improved client performance from not having to have instas.. and more. I'm thinking you need to take a closer look at Revelations before dismissing it all. -- Lil Miner Newbie Skills Roadmap \| CCG Card Lookup
Pattern Clarc The Priory	Posted - 2006.12.04 17:22:00 - [7] for the most part, I think the op isn't far off the issuse. Serveral features needed a little more testing on Sisi, in particular, invention and salvaging.... at the moment, the CCP approach of "lets wait and see" breads frustration for all those who where actualy looking forward to certain aspects of the game. At the moment, the new additions to EvE change nothing about game balance, as those who could, still do, and those who couldn't, still can't, isk and skill points wise. Sig removed lacks EVE content, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus
DefJam101 Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.04 17:23:00 - [8] Originally by: Kylania Originally by: Ghoest -Invention is a hard to use, expensive mess. It's supposed to be, that's the whole point. It was put in for an alternate method of getting T2 BPCs, not a quick and easy method of getting T2 BPCs. Originally by: Ghoest -Salvage/rigs are so time intensive that Im better off just ratting and putting the isk toward pirate implants if I want something absurdly over priced with a modest benifit. You're probably doing things like you did when we just looted cans. You can't do that. You really need a dedicated salvage ship to get the most out of this, salvaging isn't the "new looting", it's a whole new method of gathering resources. An Exequor with three Salvager Is and a Tractor Beam can effortlessly salvage and loot an entire field of cans in the time it used to take to loot it all. Originally by: Ghoest -Astrometrics seems to have only acomplished making high sec mission running more profitable than low sec mission running. My current astrometrics skills are too low to use probes, but it sounds more like it's being used to ruin rather than run high sec missions. Due to low skills I haven't tried out the exploration part of the patch yet, but I'm happy it's there for when I've trained up to use it. Originally by: Ghoest -Warp to 0 is cool, but content wise its nothing, that could have been done with any patch. You can't simply discount part of the patch you like because it could have been done in any patch, that's just silly. This is obviously part of Kali you felt "delivered", so you should change your title to reflect that. Originally by: Ghoest -The new ships are a fun because they are new, balance wise they are a non-issue, so I guess they are a psitive. Can't afford these new ships due to "z0mg it's new" greed happening these days, but they look cool and from what I've heard perform well for the most part. As for Revelations itself, you're forgetting the 8 new regions, HP increase, ammo changes, the new star map features and options, rigs itself (a higher end feature which will become more important later on), the new enhanced character creation tool, far more gang features, corp management improvements, Contracts system, improved client performance from not having to have instas.. and more. I'm thinking you need to take a closer look at Revelations before dismissing it all. To be fair to the OP, the HP increase ruined T1 PvP, but other than that, yeah, Kali 1 rulez. ***
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.04 17:26:00 - [9] Originally by: Ghoest -Invention is a hard to use, expensive mess. Wasn't meant to be a way to easily undermine the T2 market anyway. Besides, there's a good chance a lot of the expense is just a prenerf. Wait and see. Originally by: Ghoest -Salvage/rigs are so time intensive that Im better off just ratting and putting the isk toward pirate implants if I want something absurdly over priced with a modest benifit. Get a friend to salvage your rigs for you then. And if there's no reason for you to salvage, then... don't. Originally by: Ghoest -Astrometrics seems to have only acomplished making high sec mission running more profitable than low sec mission running. How so? Originally by: Ghoest -Warp to 0 is cool, but content wise its nothing, that could have been done with any patch. Duh? Originally by: Ghoest -The new ships are a fun because they are new, balance wise they are a non-issue, so I guess they are a psitive. New ships usually are good thing, at least they didn't totally undermine existing ships by adding them in (no small feat). They look great, and have their own roles that people seem to be liking a lot. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.12.04 17:35:00 - [10] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 04/12/2006 17:35:00 No Ghoest, you are the one who fails to deliver. You are obviously tired of the game and lashing out at everything. Go play something else for a while. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Zhaine B e l l u m	Posted - 2006.12.04 18:36:00 - [11] Edited by: Zhaine on 04/12/2006 18:37:58 Originally by: DefJam101 To be fair to the OP, the HP increase ruined T1 PvP Def man, you're awesome and all, no doubt, but I don't half disagree with everything you post on these boards (well apart fromt that Kali rules, I agree) The HP increace has made T1 PvP (whatever that is exactly). I've had some of the best fights of my Eve life since Kali in T1 ships, partly due to them lasting long enough for me to be able to think and assess during them, as a direct result of the HP increase (although I do fly Prophs a lot, which got neatly boosted :D) ;p - - - - - - - - - - "PERGITE DEGUSTATE FORMOSUM BELLUM" Forward to taste the beautiful war. . .
Mephesto Nizal	Posted - 2006.12.04 18:48:00 - [12] don't judge a 3 course meal by just the appetizer
Taedrin Gallente Mercatoris Technologies	Posted - 2006.12.04 18:50:00 - [13] Well... Invention - was never meant to be as good as owning a T2 BPO. It was supposed to be a more expensive, and risky way to allow anyone into the T2 market. It was also introduced to help keep a reign on those HAC prices. Salvage/rigs - not enough time has passed. People are complaining that prices for rigs are so expensive, however, I have yet to see a single rig produced. However, this seems to be from a lack of people who had Survey V trained. I think this will balance out once the salvage skill reqs reduce to the point that any n00b can do some salvaging. Astrometrics - Low sec mission running is still possible if you find the right system, and/or the right friends. Plus local hasn't been nerfed so you can tell if you are in danger by keeping local open like you should be anyways.
Ralkuth	Posted - 2006.12.04 18:54:00 - [14] I agree with the OP. I've played for 3 yrs now and been pretty happy with the upgrades. This one is definitely a disappointment. Wrecks are a useless PITA. Mission deadspace scanning is a bad idea. Half the other new stuff doesn't appear to work. How about we just go back to RMR? Ralkuth
Adam C 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.12.04 18:55:00 - [15] simply putting it - i see so many things wrong with many of the new features + it will only take a few patches to sort them out ++ patch day tomorrow
Templer Relleg FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.04 18:58:00 - [16] Oveur made a dev post about revelations. He pointed out a few important things: Revelations Chapter 1. Its all about improvements, and fixes for things. Its gonna provide ground for new big features. Its not intended as a major feature patch. Revelations Chapter 2 is big, epic features. Factional warfare, and other good stuff. This is the MAJOR patch, that is gonna bring new features. So you, my friend, must wait to talk about if Revelations was any good, before Revelations chapter 3(Which is gonna fix any major things, and add a bit new).
Alz Shado	Posted - 2006.12.04 19:00:00 - [17] I think the problem with Invention, like so many other really cool Eve ideas, is that CCP has a serious interface addiction to spreadsheets. How many of the menus and systems are really nothing more than glorified tables with action buttons? Situations like corp roles management is a complete nightmare. When I'm working in the market, it feels like I'm just moving cells around in Excel. I know that you can do better -- look at the fitting window. Simple and intuitive. Compare with the bland landscape that is the reprocessing screen, if you even bother anymore. The bottom line is, there are some really great ideas in Eve that get unnoticed because the interface is a nightmare. They say that engineers should not be allowed to design the interface. I'm not a designer, I'm an engineer, but these are the kinds of interfaces even I wouldn't make.
Templer Relleg FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.04 19:14:00 - [18] Originally by: Alz Shado I know that you can do better -- look at the fitting window. Simple and intuitive. Compare with the bland landscape that is the reprocessing screen, if you even bother anymore. The bottom line is, there are some really great ideas in Eve that get unnoticed because the interface is a nightmare. They say that engineers should not be allowed to design the interface. I'm not a designer, I'm an engineer, but these are the kinds of interfaces even I wouldn't make. I'd also like to see a new user interface. But i dont think we will see it before 2008, if they even are gonna do it. Maybe a new Ui will come with walking in stations?
Moominer InterGalactic Corp.	Posted - 2006.12.04 19:31:00 - [19] Could not agree more with the sentiments of the OP. Kali deployment has gone well, kudos to that and the ~33k PCU. Some changes are cool, but the major things that got me tingling are so much of a letdown. Exploration is so mind numbingly boring I'd rather mine crok for the rest of my existence. Hi there, 5 hours of hitting the scanner waiting ~4minutes for results everytime. Rigs and invention are prenerfed beyond use currently. The economics of both need a close look. Especially considering some ships (e.g. dedicated ECM ships) are pretty much fudged without rigs. Not to mention the screw up with the recon launcher. Yeh, slower than pre-patch probing. Pretty hostile flag in local, and slower probing. Thanks for that. Loggers were bad enough pre-patch. Hoping Tuesdays patch fixes some of the major downsides. Eve Fitting Manager
Detavi Kade	Posted - 2006.12.04 19:42:00 - [20] First, I agree with your points. However I disagree with the general sentiment. I will take a wait-and-see approach. Unlike the previous game I came from, the test server in EVE isn't a server with a persistent population with folks playing it as their MAIN. As such, I give CCP more "wiggle" room to work out the balance issues on Tranq, especially issues that involve drop rates and economy etc. People seem to jump onto SiSi to test out ship mechanics, not to live there. Secondly this is the first of three parts. Keep it coming CCP!
Merchantigus Minmatar Riot Zone	Posted - 2006.12.04 19:53:00 - [21] ibtl??? :/
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.12.04 19:56:00 - [22] So far I think it's a mix: ECM Nerf: went way too far. Now even dedicated ECM Ships other than the Rook are worse than a standard ship was before it. That's a little too much, imo. It's nigh impossible to jam anything bigger than a cruiser now. ECM needed tweaking... not nuking into oblivion. 50% was way way way too big a cut in power. Rigs: Meh... could be ok but if the prices are as high as we suspect they'll be (which is likely) they won't be worth the money and will be just another thing that only the wealthy players can afford to use in PVP which means the PVP gap just got wider. Invention: Waste of time and money. Hope you like playing roulette. I guess for those who love this sort of thing it's cool though. Salvaging: Jury is out on this. but since it has no use other than rigs or invention.... meh... We'll see HP Boost: Nice but Amar & Gallente (and any Caldari turreters) really got the shaft. Need to cut cap use of turret weapons by 25% to compensate so that they are on par with non-cap weapons due to the much longer fights now. (note: I am a missile pilot saying this) Warp to Zero: I like it. Got rid of those godawful bookmarks! WCS Nerf: Cool, about time. New Ships: Nice eye candy! Fun new toys. New Regions: Sweetness Upcoming changes to POS War: Nice So far I'd say Revelations was a mixed bag... some good... some bad... only one really abyssmal idea went in and it was the right idea just overkill. And Rigs will wind up giving the folks with limitless ISK a big advantage over those for whom Rigs are a luxury item they can't afford to lose.
Sunna World Caldari Incredulous Logistics	Posted - 2006.12.04 19:58:00 - [23] I love exploration.
MysticNZ Solstice Systems Development Concourse	Posted - 2006.12.04 20:00:00 - [24] I just hate the map... the animations need to be turned off. I find a clunky... the other one worked fine. In the middle of battle it's so hard to use. -=====-
Frank Horrigan	Posted - 2006.12.04 20:00:00 - [25] Originally by: Ghoest I say this as some one with 25 mill sp, 5 lvl4 research agents and good astrometrics skills. -Invention is a hard to use, expensive mess. -Salvage/rigs are so time intensive that Im better off just ratting and putting the isk toward pirate implants if I want something absurdly over priced with a modest benifit. -Astrometrics seems to have only acomplished making high sec mission running more profitable than low sec mission running. -Warp to 0 is cool, but content wise its nothing, that could have been done with any patch. -The new ships are a fun because they are new, balance wise they are a non-issue, so I guess they are a psitive. yes, Invention is a hard to use expensive mess. but is it expensive as a hac for 200 mill? But.. it is very messy and hard to use .. I agree with that. astrometrics has left low sec mission running in the dirt.. Though, becuase of that, I've sold my uber raven, and just gone full time pirate with a fleet of t2 ships but.. I wont have any INCOME after I lose all my ships unfortunantly. and I still have 400k LP just sitting with my agent. and I wont even fly the new ships. the bs's only have one use and thats fleet battles, and the bs's, I might as well just keep my command ships. salvage is pointless beucase you basically need an ALT to do it for you. which I dont have, I actuilly only have one character on one account. anyway. I gotta go finish this research paper I was working on so adios.
St Dragon Blood Association of Dragons	Posted - 2006.12.04 20:02:00 - [26] Top tip concerning salvaging get a ship with say for example 6 salvagers like a gilent destroyer and 4 tractor beams get him to get the rig parts for you . ----------------------------------------------- "Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Jean Rostand
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.12.04 20:08:00 - [27] Edited by: Plutoinum on 04/12/2006 20:11:12 Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Ghoest -Invention is a hard to use, expensive mess. Wasn't meant to be a way to easily undermine the T2 market anyway. Besides, there's a good chance a lot of the expense is just a prenerf. Wait and see. Well, it was also meant to increase the supply. CCP meantioned that there are too few tech-2 ships being used, they wanted to see them more. So unless that changes, which more or less also implies that the price goes down, I call invention failed. P.S.: If anyone doubts the statement about that they wanted to see more tech-2 ships, I have to use the mighty eve-search. CTD/con-loss vs. log-out. A proposal for a fix.
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.04 20:19:00 - [28] Originally by: Plutoinum Well, it was also meant to increase the supply. CCP meantioned that there are too few tech-2 ships being used, they wanted to see them more. So unless that changes, which more or less also implies that the price goes down, I call invention failed. edit: ok, to rate the effect yet, because the feature is just too new. P.S.: If anyone doubts the statement about that they wanted to see more tech-2 ships, I have to use the mighty eve-search. I don't doubt you that CCP might say something along those lines. I'm just calling bull**** on the statement that it's a failure after it's been out less than a week. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Crowbiwan Caldari N.A.G.A Corporation	Posted - 2006.12.04 20:49:00 - [29] Originally by: MysticNZ I just hate the map... the animations need to be turned off. I find a clunky... the other one worked fine. In the middle of battle it's so hard to use. the zoom thingy can be turned off.. go to map control panel, star map tab, animation subtab & select "instant" under transition speed, viola there you have it, no more funky zoom feature when you open map enjoy
Aidelon Caldari AWE Corporation Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.04 21:28:00 - [30] I'm pretty sure that CCP will take the feedback on these systems and make adjustments to them based on player feedback and thier own internal metrics.

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