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NocturnalDeath
Umbra Congregatio
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.12.05 22:26:00 -
[1]
With drones now randomly switching targets, refusing to fire on targets, and shooting friendly ships, how will this affect the tourney?
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The Hardman
Amarr
Sausage Commandos
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Posted - 2006.12.05 22:42:00 -
[2]
It was obviously made as a response to the dominance of drone/nos setups in the tourney. CCP wants people to use more missiles and ECM.
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Wendat Huron
Lupus Industries
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Posted - 2006.12.05 22:47:00 -
[3]
Sounds more like a fix to me, in what sense did they get nerfed?
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Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2006.12.05 23:01:00 -
[4]
Drones did shoot friendlys before todays patch, you just had to zap them when they did and re-direct them, felt like Santa and his drunken reindeer out there.
Nebula Rasa Holdings |
Andor Traxel
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Nebula Rasa
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Posted - 2006.12.06 18:10:00 -
[5]
IMO Drones and Nos are not dominating the tourney. The Maulus and celestis with thier insane damping capability is dominating the tourney. If anything needs to be nerfed it is dampers and the ridiculous bonus they get with even moderate skills. Drones can be easily destroyed and need to be micromanaged at all times.
The tourney has become the "twitch " players dream with "cycle dampers" "cycle dampers". Add the the nerf to armor a t1 frig with plates has the armor nearly equal to an hac. Add a halo set and they are nigh impossible to destroy.
Thats why all the originality will leave the tourney, and all you will see come friday is some iteration of a maulus or celestis damping fleet.
Go maulus! "cycle dampers" "cycle dampers"!
Well we can do that too
See you on the field :)
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Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.06 18:30:00 -
[6]
You can't nerf something from it's performance in the tournament.
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EVE is sick. |
Wendat Huron
Lupus Industries
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Posted - 2006.12.06 21:42:00 -
[7]
You could however limit its use in the next tournament. Nos and damp makes for some bloody boring matches.
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ookke
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Posted - 2006.12.06 22:58:00 -
[8]
 Originally by: Wendat Huron
You could however limit its use in the next tournament. Nos and damp makes for some bloody boring matches.
Agreed, but also keep in mind that if we keep thinking like this we will soon end up in a tournament with no remote reps, no nos, no EW, no tanks, no tanking implants, no web recons and no drones because they "make for boring matches".
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theRaven
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Posted - 2006.12.07 01:51:00 -
[9]
It depends what the tournament is supposed to be about. If it is supposed to be an example of standard PVP then "boring" tactics will prevail (as EW/NOS etc are effective in standard PVP). If it is supposed to be about "exciting battles" or involve a level playing field, then the participants should be given specially created characters and ships.
Personally I find "press F1-F8" to be much more boring then the tactics of EW. Though the former is much more visually exciting and this is a spectator event (similar to why motor sports are televised much more then chess tournaments).
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Baun
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.12.07 07:01:00 -
[10]
Originally by: theRaven
It depends what the tournament is supposed to be about. If it is supposed to be an example of standard PVP then "boring" tactics will prevail (as EW/NOS etc are effective in standard PVP).
Hate to keep harping on this, but I find this myth annoying.
If normally people knew they were going to be fighting the same "value" of ships with 4-7 or so enemies and with 4-7 of their own ships, then they would always fit like a tournament team.
In real PvP you cannot control how many enemies you fight or what the "point value" of their gang is. You won't find a lot of gangs setup like tournament teams because if they run into gangs with alot more DPS and higher numbers they will die horribly.
The lesson here is that you shouldn't impute effectiveness in normal PvP from effectveness in tournament PvP. Nos/ECM ships are severely nerfed by the ECM nerf. Nos/Damp ships are highly specialized and very vulnerable in real PvP. Its inane to infer that they are overpowered because they work wonders in certain particular circumstances.
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Personally I find "press F1-F8" to be much more boring then the tactics of EW. Though the former is much more visually exciting and this is a spectator event (similar to why motor sports are televised much more then chess tournaments).
Me too, except f1-f8 is fleet battle where coordinated alpha strike wins, its not a nos fight.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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theRaptor
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2006.12.07 07:37:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Baun
If normally people knew they were going to be fighting the same "value" of ships with 4-7 or so enemies and with 4-7 of their own ships, then they would always fit like a tournament team.
In real PvP you cannot control how many enemies you fight or what the "point value" of their gang is. You won't find a lot of gangs setup like tournament teams because if they run into gangs with alot more DPS and higher numbers they will die horribly.
Thats true in general patrol PVP (going out and looking for trouble), but I have many times been involved in defensive PVP where we have changed our ships and fittings to fight a specific opponent. It's the easy way to break camps or kill a larger fleet that is deep in your territory (and thus removed from easy reinforcements or refitting of its own). And if you scout properly you are never fighting someone you don't want to.
Originally by: Baun
The lesson here is that you shouldn't impute effectiveness in normal PvP from effectveness in tournament PvP. Nos/ECM ships are severely nerfed by the ECM nerf. Nos/Damp ships are highly specialized and very vulnerable in real PvP. Its inane to infer that they are overpowered because they work wonders in certain particular circumstances.
I never said overpowered, I said effective. Most of my PVP experience is in small gang combat, and EW was always more effective there then in fleet, due to how much easy it is to coordinate successful lock downs with fewer enemy targets. Nos/ECM ships are the ones that get alpha struck by competent opponents and are generally the most vulnerable, so relying on them heavily tends to mean you either win big or lose big. ECM had been nerfed, and you can no longer run around using ECM ships as solopwnmobiles (Damn you castor scorpion's, damn you), but it is still effective as part of a gang strategy.
I don't think you trust, in, my, self-righteous suicide. |
Baun
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.12.07 08:18:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Baun on 07/12/2006 08:19:14
Originally by: theRaptor
Thats true in general patrol PVP (going out and looking for trouble), but I have many times been involved in defensive PVP where we have changed our ships and fittings to fight a specific opponent. It's the easy way to break camps or kill a larger fleet that is deep in your territory (and thus removed from easy reinforcements or refitting of its own). And if you scout properly you are never fighting someone you don't want to.
Certainly you can, to a large degree, control who you fight and when.
My point is that if you have alot of ships you usually have no need to fit tourny-style because if you encounter a smaller number of ships it won't matter much and if you encounter a similiar group they will have too much damage to overcome. (Maybe there is some reason to believe that a great logistics setup could work even in largish fights, but it seems like you have too little time to get it going before people die to the huge alpha strikes).
Even when you are defending and have the advantage of refitting, that only means you can come out with a specific logistics strategy when the size of the enemy gang is such that a logistics strategy will work.
So I guess the overall point I am making is that because size of opposing gang determines whether logistics setups are useful (i.e effective, completely unneccesary, or complete crap) and you cannot actually control the size of the opposing gang you usually won't go out with this sort of fit.
The exception, as you note, is when you hunt around for a group that specifically matches your setup. Thats rarely fruitful in my experience.
Quote:
I never said overpowered, I said effective. Most of my PVP experience is in small gang combat, and EW was always more effective there then in fleet, due to how much easy it is to coordinate successful lock downs with fewer enemy targets.
Again, you can only really control the size of your gang, not the enemy gang. If you go out in a Nos/Damp setup you will have to be very choosy. This means that you are NOT "generally effective" you are "situationally effective."
Quote:
Nos/ECM ships are the ones that get alpha struck by competent opponents and are generally the most vulnerable, so relying on them heavily tends to mean you either win big or lose big.
Right and I think that result depends too much on factors outside of your control for those setups to be
Quote:
ECM had been nerfed, and you can no longer run around using ECM ships as solopwnmobiles (Damn you castor scorpion's, damn you), but it is still effective as part of a gang strategy.
Haha I used to kill NPCers with a 4 cruise missle scorp either in castor or pre-castor (it was around fall 2003 though). Its amazing how much people have learned about the game and how much modules have changed.
Anyway, ECM is of course effective as part of a gang whether fleet or small. There are, however, feew good true Nos/ECM ships. All ECM ships bassically JUST ECM. Nos are a bit less useful without the ECM because unless you can drain them so they can't shoot (which doesnt work with proj/missles obviously) you need to be able to tank them long enough for your lower DPS to eat through their defense.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Zaethiel
Murder-Death-Kill
Blood Raiders Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.07 10:50:00 -
[13]
Drones have only dominated because of Nos and Damps. I dont understand why CCP has allowed damps in the tourny like they have. Nos is fine for the most part but with sensor damps extremely long lock times plus not even be able to target until u hit 8km is rediculous.
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