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Amarr ships good, lasers bad!!! (while beating the caveman drum)

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Jovialmadness	Posted - 2006.12.10 11:55:00 - [91] as a side note, the above geddon setup was not pvp per say, so let me include that. i simply was wanting to test damage output on the raven and i did not want to burn boost charges.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.10 12:02:00 - [92] Thats more of an issue of gist shield mods and crystal implants, though. It's not like any other dps BS would have fared much better there.
Solomunio Kzenig Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.12.10 12:05:00 - [93] Edited by: Solomunio Kzenig on 10/12/2006 12:05:24 Originally by: Jovialmadness Edited by: Jovialmadness on 10/12/2006 11:57:50 1. Not enough mid slots. 2. Lasers drain CAP way too much....Amarr are racial experts on the use of lasers, so either lower their CAP requirement, or up the CAP's (both these could be given as a racial bonus) on Amarr ships. 3. EM damage of lasers is now effectively countered by hardeners and/or racial/ship bonuses, so either further increase the EM damage of lasers or allow the fitting of crystals which do kinetic/explosive damage as a secondary characteristic. Quote: null 100% agree. lets look at these in more detail. 1. amarr is setup to be the mid range engagers. having said that, why is it we are lacking in mid slots to help achieve these ranges. 2. amarr lasers do use alot of cap and even with my main which has 30 mil is sp's and all ship flying and gunnery skills to 5, i still have some cap issues. fit injectors? why must we be forced to fit injectors just to EQUAL what other races can do similarly in damage output and tanking? Injectors are a fix, but not a solution. besides, fitting injectors just henders point one more. 3. this point has been hammered for awhile and poster did fine with explaining it. On paper, amarr dps is brilliant if not perfect. get into an amarr ship with maxed skills and see why there are issues trying to break peeps tanks in the game. on paper is fine, ingame is another story. i thought this was funny: geddon vs. navy raven 7 mega pulse II's (optimum range with conflag crystals) 10 million in gunnery 4 heat sink II's(low) 3 cap relays(low) 1 large tech II repper(low) 3 cap charger II's (mid) large laser damage implant multi laser damage implant Navy raven 1 gist shield tank (fitted for global damage so not fitted to fight against just amarr) with crystal implants. 1 heavy nos after 4 minutes of firing at the raven, i had no cap. raven had shield boosted 4 times and was at 95% cap. oh, and his shields were at 98% and never dropped below 95%. excessive setup you say to fight against? can amarr get any better damage output though? i would thought like to see how gallente do against this raven setup and possibly even min. the most horrid thing was, i had one tank mod fitted and the raven never shot at me Exactly!!!! A setup which on paper is formidable + excellent skills and after 4 minutes (and eternity in EVE battletime) the Raven was sitting pretty and the geddon is outa cap. THIS is why Amarr pilots are 'whining', what's the point of training up to high skills + earning all that ISK for the goddies your golden albatross if the end result is an inability to fight PvP? One Empire, One People, One Emperor, Forever under Heaven. Amarr Aeternus.
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2006.12.11 20:06:00 - [94] while it is true that the setup i mentioned would be excessive to fight against. 1. Gallente would do better damage and still have more cap than me.... 2. Gallente would prolly have a bigger tank fitted too 3. Another caldari boat would be able alter damage types and do "tweaking"....while also being able to tank. 4. god knows what min would do... its all relative, but in the end i am forced to fit nos to compensate for damage output. why you ask? cause if i cannot break a tank through brute force, then i will not allow someone to rep/boost through lack of cap. I suppose ill have to kill them slow...
NeoGeist	Posted - 2006.12.12 03:26:00 - [95] The problem with faction mods is that if you tank w/ it, your tank shoots through the roof, while your dps pretty much remains the same. Faction guns and faction dps mods aren't that much better than the t2 counterparts. Not even a blasterthron would be able to break this tank through sheer dps in a 1v1 (and probably wouldn't have fared much better than you since fitting 7x t2 neutron blasters is really harsh for the mega. If you fit 7x t2 neutrons, you pretty much can't fit anything else; no real tank and no cap injectors). The only way that you can break that tank is nos and cap neutralizers since that's the best way to deal w/ faction tanked ships. Also, the geddon should lose to the CNR to begin with since the geddon only costs you about 60-70M, but the CNR is about 1B. The amount of isk put into the CNR is probably 10x what you spent on your geddon. However, pulse lasers + NOS = pheer.
Deviana Sevidon Gallente easyCredits	Posted - 2006.12.12 09:33:00 - [96] From what I understand the Backstory the Amarr have no flexibility at all. So, the Amarr would use more and bigger Lasers and thicker Armor if they encounter an ememy they cannot defeat with their current weapons and ships. Another argument would be, if Amarr get a kinetic lens than I would want Explosive Ammunition for my Gallente-Ships. Perhaps the simplest solution, while still keeping things balanced, would be to improve the skill "Controlled Bursts". So it makes a -7.5% or -10% per level in capacitor need of weapons. Huitzilopochtli did not like my Sig :(
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.12 10:33:00 - [97] Originally by: Deviana Sevidon From what I understand the Backstory the Amarr have no flexibility at all. So, the Amarr would use more and bigger Lasers and thicker Armor if they encounter an ememy they cannot defeat with their current weapons and ships. Exept they do not really have bigger lasers and thicker armor. The gank & tank flavour of amarr doesnot work balancewise - it gave us wonderful things like the old gankgeddon. You should know how that worked out. So amarr basically now have their background disadvantage while lacking their background advantage.
Deviana Sevidon Gallente easyCredits	Posted - 2006.12.12 11:23:00 - [98] Correct, but I am still against the Idea of Kinetic or even Explosive Crystals. I think the best approach would be to boost the "Controlled Burst Skill" and also to change the ratio between EM and Thermal Damage. Long Range Crystals currently do EM damage and only a little or no Thermal. While Short Range Crystals also do a lot of Thermal + EM. Change the Ratio between these damage types, so Tech 1 Crystals do balanced numbers of EM and Thermal and change the Tech 2 Crystals. Perhaps the way Tech 2 should sacrifice even more flexibility for more damage of a single type. Leave scorch crystals as they are, but change conflagration also to long range but only thermal damage, without EM. Huitzilopochtli did not like my Sig :(
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard	Posted - 2006.12.12 12:03:00 - [99] I think the problem is the overuse of nosses. The races that is most hampered by nosses, are amarr and gallente. Luckely, gallente can dish out enough damage to kill the enemy before running out of cap charges. Perhpas a geddon can also... Autocannons are neither affected by tracking disruptors. Using 2 and getting in close won't prevent them from hitting. 1 TD is enough to kill any laser gun (used t2 gatling lasers last night agenst a taranis at about 600m doing about 600m/s. Not one hit. Neither on light drones)
Brother Tycho Amarr	Posted - 2006.12.12 12:17:00 - [100] Personaly i find nothing wrong with EM and thermal damage i find the problems lay in the ships. If we are intended to use Lasers we need better recharge rates for our capacitors. I also find no problems with our low numbers of mid slots useing the term Tank and Gank is wrong also as no ship can do both. For example my NPC geddon uses half its low and mid slots for cap mods so i can keep my rep running while fireing it usualy takes at least 3 cap relays and 2 cap chargers. Swaping out cap relays for Heat sinks is gimping yourself.

Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.12 12:30:00 - [101] Originally by: Deviana Sevidon Correct, but I am still against the Idea of Kinetic or even Explosive Crystals. The point is that you cannot just pick one part of the background, it's all or nothing. The gank & tank speciality does not work balancewise. Which invalidates the "low flexibility" counterpoint. Also, a controlled burst skil lchange would be of little use for the balance problems of amarr vs the other races ships since it would boost gallente and caldari hybrid ships as well. Meaning the performance of amarr ships vs these would not change at all. I myself are against exp and kin crystals as well, though. It simply does not fit to amarr. Best changes would be IMO a slight modification of armor & EM shield resistances, so the armor-shieldtanker numerical imbalance does not effect lasers as heavily, make the cap recharge of amarr ships higher than that of other races (which they "should" be supposed to be), reduce the overinflated grid requirements of small & med lasers and make the low flexibility disadvantage of amrr ships less pronounced (since the gank & tank advantage got less pronounced, too). Stuff like sarmauls khanid m2 changes would be a good start.
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2006.12.12 16:22:00 - [102] Edited by: Jovialmadness on 12/12/2006 16:26:39 i so desperately wish a solution could be found that would NOT make all races cookie cutters, this is the last thing i want. i do wish that EACH race could excell at one thing while the others are only moderate at the same ability. i think ccp desires this as well, but what they need to figure out is how can each race inflict damage, while not being equal, and still be different.... i have no clue, but what they do not need to do is make amarr the vampires of eve which is what it will end up being if something is not change. Quote: As a side note, i liken capacitor to blood. Without blood, nothing can function in the body. I do NOT like being a race that bleeds quicker than anyone else. yes, i am an alt..Jovial Quote:
Almarez	Posted - 2006.12.12 16:32:00 - [103] Originally by: Jovialmadness Edited by: Jovialmadness on 12/12/2006 16:26:39 i so desperately wish a solution could be found that would NOT make all races cookie cutters, this is the last thing i want. i do wish that EACH race could excell at one thing while the others are only moderate at the same ability. i think ccp desires this as well, but what they need to figure out is how can each race inflict damage, while not being equal, and still be different.... i have no clue, but what they do not need to do is make amarr the vampires of eve which is what it will end up being if something is not change. Vampires of EVE...what do you mean?
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2006.12.12 16:38:00 - [104] ccp has made it clear with the advent of the pilgrim and curse(two ships i admire), that amarr are for all intense and purposes a race designed around nos. no other race has those abilities on ships. the bhal even has it. with the cap issues now even more prevelant because of the abaddon and its role of being a "shock assualt" type vessel, it only makes sense to me that we are beginning to see the beginning of a new role for amarr. a role that has us basically using nos more and more instead of pure damage output. this would allow us to be the tankers we were meant to be and not quite the gankers we want to be. just my thoughts.... Quote: As a side note, i liken capacitor to blood. Without blood, nothing can function in the body. I do NOT like being a race that bleeds quicker than anyone else. yes, i am an alt..Jovial Quote:
Almarez	Posted - 2006.12.12 16:53:00 - [105] Originally by: Jovialmadness ccp has made it clear with the advent of the pilgrim and curse(two ships i admire), that amarr are for all intense and purposes a race designed around nos. no other race has those abilities on ships. the bhal even has it. with the cap issues now even more prevelant because of the abaddon and its role of being a "shock assualt" type vessel, it only makes sense to me that we are beginning to see the beginning of a new role for amarr. a role that has us basically using nos more and more instead of pure damage output. this would allow us to be the tankers we were meant to be and not quite the gankers we want to be. just my thoughts.... Ya I agree I wouldn't want that. This is my issue with the situation, if it played out that that was CCP's intention for Amarrian pilots. If CCP is serious about the storyline aspect of EVE then each race should have a full contingent of ships that can sustain a fleet battle. In other words, damage dealer(s) + support vessels. I guess Amarr have this if you say a Geddon or an Abaddon is a damage dealer but I think that the cap support needed to take out a hostile fleet with a bunch of these ships would be insane, not leaving much in the way of other support roles. You know what would be interesting, if CCP set up NPC fleets of different races and varying sizes and had simulated battles. Sort of get an idea of how good each race fairs against each other. Right now we don't see that cause player fleets have a variety of ships.
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2006.12.12 17:07:00 - [106] you would think that they would want each race to have a full contingent of ships for varying functions, but...why do we have roles for nos, and nos happens to be a hi slot mod? This mod just so HAPPENS to assist us with the one thing our weapons suck the hell out of. If we reduce the number of weapons, we use less cap. the nos replentishes this cap. the only other option for us is to fit injectors which give us the capability to perform well in fleet battles for a limited time. injectors take up precious mid slots though for other uses, but from my feelings on the matter, amarr was never meant to be a "tackler" or "ew mob race" so i suppose injectors it is smaller amarr ships, in my experience have no need for injectors so the above statement really doesnt apply to them. the bigger ships though really cant afford to fit webs and scrams....let the other races mess with that. But wait! they can fit the webs, scrams and ew and still tank and put out damage or steal the nos from us and nos us to death. what a quagmire Quote: As a side note, i liken capacitor to blood. Without blood, nothing can function in the body. I do NOT like being a race that bleeds quicker than anyone else. yes, i am an alt..Jovial Quote:
Almarez	Posted - 2006.12.12 17:26:00 - [107] Originally by: Jovialmadness you would think that they would want each race to have a full contingent of ships for varying functions, but...why do we have roles for nos, and nos happens to be a hi slot mod? This mod just so HAPPENS to assist us with the one thing our weapons suck the hell out of. If we reduce the number of weapons, we use less cap. the nos replentishes this cap. the only other option for us is to fit injectors which give us the capability to perform well in fleet battles for a limited time. injectors take up precious mid slots though for other uses, but from my feelings on the matter, amarr was never meant to be a "tackler" or "ew mob race" so i suppose injectors it is smaller amarr ships, in my experience have no need for injectors so the above statement really doesnt apply to them. the bigger ships though really cant afford to fit webs and scrams....let the other races mess with that. But wait! they can fit the webs, scrams and ew and still tank and put out damage or steal the nos from us and nos us to death. what a quagmire I agree. Yesterday I had a little fight with an alliance mate on test server, I had an Abbadon and he had the new Gallente tier 3 BS. He had a jammer, a webber, and warp scrambler on so I couldn't lock on, couldn't fly away, and couldn't warp away. If you did that on a geddon you would have no more free mid slots and cap issue would be even worse. If you did that on an abaddon or apoc then you have 1 free mid slot, guess that has to go to cap injector. Also, having to use NOS means you have to get in close. Just dumb. What if I want to fit Tachs on but I can't because of cap issues. Actually this is the best test of one of the major issues with Amarr. I have over 6 mil sp in gunnery, most of which is laser oriented and I cannot sustain cap on an Abaddon with a set of tachs alone. Meaning, if I set up 8 tachs, (long range, hence NOS doesnt make sense) and activate just those (i.e.) no tank, my cap will quickly run dry. Please tell me another race that has this issue.
Rastigan Caldari Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.12 17:46:00 - [108] Make NOS have signatures, ie. Heavy NOS would do less to a cruiser or frigate. Make capacitor batteries(their amount) un-Nosable.. (they have crazy CPU req's as it is anyways)
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2006.12.13 17:01:00 - [109] Well dont feel bad Almarez, something has to give soon. Quote: As a side note, i liken capacitor to blood. Without blood, nothing can function in the body. I do NOT like being a race that bleeds quicker than anyone else. yes, i am an alt..Jovial Quote:
Almarez	Posted - 2006.12.13 18:47:00 - [110] I hope you're right Jovial, I'm starting to find it hard to keep an interest in the game as of late. Mining and ratting are only so much fun.



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