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Jedek Caldari Tides of Silence	Posted - 2006.12.10 05:00:00 - [1] "All objects located inside deadspace (missions, exploration scenarios, etc.) are now more difficult to find with scan probes." Heres my problem CCP. You've still haven't stopped the ability from random jerks from warping in aggroing and warping out. Maybe some intelligent thought on your halfs would have been great before bringing forth this feature. Like: - Only able to pinpoint people / items in missions or deds that are located in lowsec. - Bringing in Concord on people that pull the aggro and release tactic. I respect the way you run this game and the frequent updates / enhancements, but this really seems to be a half baked though. Get rid of it in highsec guys. "What are you gonna do when the pengiun comes for you?!"
ScreamingLord Sutch Hand in Mouth	Posted - 2006.12.10 05:04:00 - [2] 1) You completely failed to think about wartargets. It's great that they aren't invincible in missions anymore. 2) I think if people warp into deadspace pockets of another mission owner without being in gang with him he should be flagged like a can thief. Then if some punk comes into your mission spot you get to blow him up (if you can!)
DiuxDium The Graduates	Posted - 2006.12.10 05:09:00 - [3] That's just silly. If some jerk does such a thing, wardec his corp. Blow the crap out of him for a few weeks. We need less big-brother, and more taking-care-of-your-self. Timeout! Party time.
Jedek Caldari Tides of Silence	Posted - 2006.12.10 05:13:00 - [4] I agree with the wardec statement but my problem lies with the fact most people are probably not at war. Also when drawing aggro on some missions thats it, you will always get auto aggro afterwards. Also I don't want to be worried when i get to pocket 6 of my GE there will be nothing there. Opinion is while this was a thought with good intent, it wasn't thought through. "What are you gonna do when the pengiun comes for you?!"
Ishmael Hansen No Quarter.	Posted - 2006.12.10 05:44:00 - [5] Originally by: DiuxDium That's just silly. If some jerk does such a thing, wardec his corp. Blow the crap out of him for a few weeks. We need less big-brother, and more taking-care-of-your-self. not a chance cos all griefers use alts in noob corps, they don't have the b a l l s to use their main in low sec. They just wannabe pirates.
Rikkard Strofeldt Gallente Sniggerdly	Posted - 2006.12.10 05:53:00 - [6] Originally by: Ishmael Hansen Originally by: DiuxDium That's just silly. If some jerk does such a thing, wardec his corp. Blow the crap out of him for a few weeks. We need less big-brother, and more taking-care-of-your-self. not a chance cos all griefers use alts in noob corps, they don't have the b a l l s to use their main in low sec. They just wannabe pirates. I use my main. I've stolen ore in Luminarie. It was a while ago though, my sec status won't let me in there anymore I think you'll find that the ones doing it with alts actually have carebear mains.... S******dly has the stones to do it with their mains. I was there when we nailed a Tempest. Please wardec us, we like shooting things without the sentry guns firing on us. -- Descending into madness.
Feyd Darkholme Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.10 05:59:00 - [7] Cross-posted from the now locked 42 page thread on the same subject... I've been keeping track of this issue since it was first reported, trying to think of a reasonable compromise for this. The problem with this is that, as with most griefing activities, comes back to the whole inane "Risk vs. Reward" thing. Now, can flagging for ore nickers was a catastrophe, I knew it wasn't going to work before it was even implimented, and so did many others including CCP no doubt. For this specific problem I tried to think of some other solution that would attempt to add risk to the griefers activity while still making it possible to scan out missions and get in. Here's what I'm thinking... Pilot A is in a deadspace mission hthat he accepted from his agent. Pilot B is scanning for mission runners for whatever reason (depending on how much more difficult CCP makes scanning missions on Wednesday this part may not need any tweaking). Pilot B scans out Pilot A's mission. Trying to warp to any body in the mission area puts Pilot B at the first acceleration gate in the deadspace mission area. Each mission is keyed to the pilot who took the mission and any people in his gang. Noone else is authorized to enter and indeed cannot use the gates. However, through the use of the Hacking skill and a Codebreaker module Pilot B has a certain percentage chance to break into the acceleration gate and enter the deadspace mission area. Hacking difficulty could be based on the level of the mission (higher is harder), the security status of the system (lower is easier or something), and maybe even the mission runners skills somehow. Perhaps having more Codebreakers fitted will increase your chance of success, and obviously the higher the Hacking skill the better the chance. I would even suggest that you need a certain skill in Hacking to even attempt it equal to the level of the mission or something. For instance you need Hacking IV to even attempt to hack into a level 4 deadspace mission. Each acceleration gate in the deadspace area must be hacked in this manner to proceed. Upon a sucessful hack Pilot B can proceed however Pilot B is immediately flagged to the mission runner, his gangmates and corpmates if applicable. If unsuccessful Pilot B also takes a small sec hit because he's been criminally flagged by the system (Murder isn't the only thing that is on peoples criminal records, so I don't see why every criminal act in EVE shouldn't have consequences and be logged). Upon a failed hack attempt the mission runner and his gangmates immediately receive a warning of some sort that informs them that someone has attempted to hack the acceleration gate. When successful the hack of the acceleration gate is not reported to CONCORD, but the mission runner gets a slightly delayed message that someone is using the gate. Either way Pilot B is now freely attackable by Pilot A and his gang/orgmates for a predetermined amount of time afterwards. Perhaps also there could be some reporting feature in the bounty system so that even if the hacking attempt is successful the mission runner can still report the crime. I would also say that if the hacking attempt was unsucessful it could be tried again, but would be more difficult on subsequent attempts, and the longer the person tries, the higher a percentage chance that the appropriate authorities will automatically respond to this criminal act (see below). Continued Below... ---------------
Feyd Darkholme Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.10 06:00:00 - [8] Continued from above... There are other issues with this sort of problem that would need to be addressed, but I just wanted to give one possible solution to this particular part of the issue. For instance this doesn't address the issue of stealing mission objectives, which IMO is pure griefing and should be actionable as harassment until some sort of game mechanic can be introduced to stop this. One other issue is whether or not some alternate, NPC-driven protection could/should be implimented for a fee for those who cannot rally help from players or retaliate combat-wise for whatever reason. It wouldn't be Concordokken, but at least something to keep the mission invader busy and at some risk. The responding NPCs would be of the NPC corporation or at least some sort of affiliated security corporation, and their strength could be based on many different things. Perhaps it could be based on an insurance-like scale dependant on what the mission runner pays. Perhaps other factors could be the level of the mission, the sec status of the system, the standing of the player to the NPC corp, etc. You could get as simple or as complicated as you wanted with it... might be fun. Another issue is mission rat aggro when someone invades a mission. I'm thinking that having rats pounding on you while one or more PvP ships are in the area that need to be taken care of puts the mission runner at an unfair disadvantage. Some mechanic should be in place that when someone hacks an acceleration gate and jumps into the mission area, the mission rats stop aggroing for a set amount of time and then aggro whoever gets too close... or something. Whatever, but something needs to be done to not only make the scanning of missions harder for griefers, but to make it actually risky to the person doing it and for there to be tangible and reasonable consequences for their actions. The things that I outlined not only require some character skill and a little ship refitting, but require some player skill, timing, planning and even some consequence and a touch of risk. I would just like to see pirating, especially in higher security systems have more risk, take more thought, and in the end be more fun all around. Heck, I can imagine the rush from trying to hack into someones mission just imagining it and the possibilities of getting caught, and the rush of actually succeeding. it could be made really fun profession instead of a braindead easy act of griefing. ---------------
Jedek Caldari Tides of Silence	Posted - 2006.12.10 07:11:00 - [9] Thanks for the thoughtful response. In whatever way CCP will continue to deal with this issue hopefully a good balance is reached to put out of limits the ability for anyone to jack up anyone else's mission. On a side note I've read alot of ppl talking about being to carebearish, and what makes eve great is you can do almost anything. Anything is great to a degree, but lets say ccp let's the missions scanning thing go, it will make the game enjoyable for certain demograph of players. If were in my 14 day trial and kept getting missioned greifed, i'd just leave, so as with any game there will have to be some balance and order. Honestly there's 0 reason to scan and enter a complex for someones thats mission running. If its a war target make this option avail, or if you mission in 0.0 but if your in empire there really isnt a need or a reason. "What are you gonna do when the pengiun comes for you?!"
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.10 07:23:00 - [10] Originally by: Rikkard Strofeldt Originally by: Ishmael Hansen Originally by: DiuxDium That's just silly. If some jerk does such a thing, wardec his corp. Blow the crap out of him for a few weeks. We need less big-brother, and more taking-care-of-your-self. not a chance cos all griefers use alts in noob corps, they don't have the b a l l s to use their main in low sec. They just wannabe pirates. I use my main. I've stolen ore in Luminarie. It was a while ago though, my sec status won't let me in there anymore I think you'll find that the ones doing it with alts actually have carebear mains.... S****dly has the stones to do it with their mains. I was there when we nailed a Tempest. Please wardec us, we like shooting things without the sentry guns firing on us. While this may be true for you, and I applaud you for you ***, most of the people who do this will be in NPC corps so that they don't have to face the repercussions of their actions. That's why I too favor, and have advocated, making anyone who warps into a mission DS a flagged individual. This allows risk v. reward for both sides. The "griefer" can do what he wants, but actually faces the possibility of retaliation for his actions, while the mission-runner can choose either to fight or ignore the other person, thus either confronting him or ignoring him and suffering the possible consequences. Originally by:** Troy Knight [After training Warp Drive Ops I] Still time I could have used training something else.

Amaron Ghant Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.10 07:52:00 - [11] If someone warps into your deadspace mission, they¦ve not taken a wrong turning at the last planet. They are there with malice aforethought. They should be flagged. Once thats done, appropriate action can be taken by the mission runner....or not.
sonofollo Caldari 5th Front enterprises New Eve Order	Posted - 2006.12.10 08:01:00 - [12] Originally by: Jedek "All objects located inside deadspace (missions, exploration scenarios, etc.) are now more difficult to find with scan probes." Heres my problem CCP. You've still haven't stopped the ability from random jerks from warping in aggroing and warping out. Maybe some intelligent thought on your halfs would have been great before bringing forth this feature. Like: - Only able to pinpoint people / items in missions or deds that are located in lowsec. - Bringing in Concord on people that pull the aggro and release tactic. I respect the way you run this game and the frequent updates / enhancements, but this really seems to be a half baked though. Get rid of it in highsec guys. seperate PVE and PVP shards needed to suit the WOW crowd Im a happy little camper now - CCP 4tw.
Tachy	Posted - 2006.12.10 08:05:00 - [13] Flagging doesn't help, and in most missions I am not in any position to do anything about someone coming in as I am usually scrambled, webbed and under heavy fire by the NPC while the newcomer is free to do nearly whatever he wants without much chance to his ship, pod, standing or wallet. The scanner does not consider war status of the scanned objects. I have yet to see a mission jumper interfering negatively with my mission who's not in an NPC corp. The occasional looter or salvaging specialist doesn't really bother me as most are polite and ask for clearance. If they asked in local or directly they might even get the BM once the pocket is cleared so they do not have to dish out the cash for the probes. chuckles Well, I myself visited a couple of mission runners too. It is exciting for a while and some are interesting to read in local. --==*-- The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait \| 2006.09.20
Pham Sirge VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.10 08:41:00 - [14] Hi all, While I think mission runners have it too easy, I think warping in and agroÆing, stealing objective etc is pure griefÆing. I think It would make better sense that rats split their attacks between the new targets and any rats who are argo'ed then warped out on will go back to their original position. This would also encourage people to run missions in groups and stop this current trend of the "uber tank". , <VTIL> Pham Sirge
Mi Lai Sanguine Legion	Posted - 2006.12.10 08:45:00 - [15] Originally by: F'nog While this may be true for you, and I applaud you for you *****, most of the people who do this will be in NPC corps so that they don't have to face the repercussions of their actions.** That's why I too favor, and have advocated, making anyone who warps into a mission DS a flagged individual. This allows risk v. reward for both sides. The "griefer" can do what he wants, but actually faces the possibility of retaliation for his actions, while the mission-runner can choose either to fight or ignore the other person, thus either confronting him or ignoring him and suffering the possible consequences. (bold added) So where lies the problem then? In finding the missions or in the NPC corp system? As far as I'm concerned, they should just force both the Mission Helpers and the Mission Runners into Player Corporations once above a certain SP limmit. You then have both sides choosing to play by the Concord rules in Empire, fine, and both can be held accountable for their actions by other players by wardeccing each other if needed, even better.
Marcus Starr Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.10 09:09:00 - [16] Asides from criminal flagging and putting item objectives in secure cans, let's add PvE risk elements to this for the mission interlopers. If an intruder enters the mission area and they're not in the mission runner's gang, they take a standings hit with the corporation that the mission runner is working for plus a little bit more from other entities that the corporation has good standings with. It makes no sense for the intruder to get shot at by the npc's until the npc's are shot at by the intruder (the enemy of my enemy is my friend), at which time the npc's divert a portion of themselves to attack the intruder (let's say all npc's within 50km distance from the npc being attacked). Not only will they take a standings hit from the mission runner's corporation, but the mission npc's as well.
Ishmael Hansen No Quarter.	Posted - 2006.12.10 09:50:00 - [17] Originally by: Rikkard Strofeldt Originally by: Ishmael Hansen Originally by: DiuxDium That's just silly. If some jerk does such a thing, wardec his corp. Blow the crap out of him for a few weeks. We need less big-brother, and more taking-care-of-your-self. not a chance cos all griefers use alts in noob corps, they don't have the b a l l s to use their main in low sec. They just wannabe pirates. I use my main. I've stolen ore in Luminarie. It was a while ago though, my sec status won't let me in there anymore I think you'll find that the ones doing it with alts actually have carebear mains.... S******dly has the stones to do it with their mains. I was there when we nailed a Tempest. Please wardec us, we like shooting things without the sentry guns firing on us. I have known Snigg for a long time and have always had much respect for them, I may be wrong but I'm not seing a snigg member griefing another eve player, as far as I remember they roamed low sec and 0.0 pirating but always had honour, even booting members from corp that podded players after they payed the ramson. I have no problems with pirates, but with griefers. If I'm ganked at a gate in low sec, or in a belt ratting, hey that's my problem I should have been smarter, but if someone uses loopholes in the game mechanics to grief other players that should be stopped. And most of them hide behind alts, in noob corps to go grief people in high sec. I haven't done missions in over a year, and I can't stand empire anymore, but I feel for mission runners and general empire carebears.
Miss Overlord Gallente Ferrum Pugnus New Eve Order	Posted - 2006.12.10 09:54:00 - [18] Originally by: Jedek "All objects located inside deadspace (missions, exploration scenarios, etc.) are now more difficult to find with scan probes." Heres my problem CCP. You've still haven't stopped the ability from random jerks from warping in aggroing and warping out. Maybe some intelligent thought on your halfs would have been great before bringing forth this feature. Like: - Only able to pinpoint people / items in missions or deds that are located in lowsec. - Bringing in Concord on people that pull the aggro and release tactic. I respect the way you run this game and the frequent updates / enhancements, but this really seems to be a half baked though. Get rid of it in highsec guys. someone please suicide gank this guy These posts represent my personal views and not those of my corp or alliance. These do not reflect offical alliance or corp views This is a disclaimer
Decadent Diva	Posted - 2006.12.10 09:56:00 - [19] may be a test for common sense at the log in screen if you fail, go play cs
Phyrr Minmatar The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2006.12.10 09:57:00 - [20] Originally by: Miss Overlord Originally by: Jedek "All objects located inside deadspace (missions, exploration scenarios, etc.) are now more difficult to find with scan probes." Heres my problem CCP. You've still haven't stopped the ability from random jerks from warping in aggroing and warping out. Maybe some intelligent thought on your halfs would have been great before bringing forth this feature. Like: - Only able to pinpoint people / items in missions or deds that are located in lowsec. - Bringing in Concord on people that pull the aggro and release tactic. I respect the way you run this game and the frequent updates / enhancements, but this really seems to be a half baked though. Get rid of it in highsec guys. someone please suicide gank this guy /signed

brakespear Minmatar oc3M	Posted - 2006.12.10 10:08:00 - [21] I've always been in favour of the aggro flagging anybody who jumps into a mission DS - however, recently I've wondered, do scan probes differentiate between mission DS and exploration sites? Can you accidentally wander into someones mission believing it to be an exploration DS? -------------------------------------------------- brakespear - the lowest common denominator
Player One Minmatar Die wilde 13	Posted - 2006.12.10 10:09:00 - [22] griefing has always been a part of the game. but, you had to be smart to grief others. succesfully problem is, now every idiot can grief mission runners without much risk
Demangel Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.10 10:53:00 - [23] I agree, while it's nice we can engage war decs running missions, the price we're paying for this feature is too high IMHO. I have NO problem with people being open to PVP while missioning if thier wardec/security status of system would allow it anytime else. But being able to "Train" a spawn on someone in a mission IMHO should be unallowable. There is no other "fair" solution. This is coming from someone who supports non consentual PVP. I say this because this tactic isn't about PVP, it's about bypassing the game mechanics. People don't do this to kill war targets, they do it to GRIEF people they normally couldn't without being concord ganked. IMHO this is inexcuseable, and while I like the idea of war decs and low sec mission runners being fair game while in mid mission, it's also simply to big a hole in the game mechanics. While I am a non consentual PVP fan, I recognize the need for parts of the game to be more consentual with regard to PVP than others, else the game will devolve into chaos. Newbs need protection in thier formative SP's... Players who have been blown back into TI frigs need a way to get back on thier feet. And yes, even Carebears deserve a place (albeit a boring one) to prosper in reletive (though never complete) security. This mechanic needs to be fixed before it's too late. My only hope is that mission runners are so hard to scan, that hoping to get a positive result takes so much time that it is counter productive compared to just making a suicide ship... That way there is always the risk, but it's so minimal so as to be about as worrysome as getting stabbed to death in a pillow fight with 4 year old girls... Galaxion > If you drove a car shaped like a thorax women would call you Demangel > Dude... I would call.. Demangel > wait that sounded g@y I bet. Galaxion > Just a bit.
Exiled One Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.12.10 10:56:00 - [24] Shut the **** up already, the next person who posts a thread with 'griefer' in title will get the spanking. It's great being Amarr, aint it?
NocturnalDeath Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.10 10:57:00 - [25] Originally by: Jedek I agree with the wardec statement but my problem lies with the fact most people are probably not at war. Well if getting blown up in a mission doesn't give carrrie bear incentive to start a war nothing will.
Jack Cromwell Azure Horizon Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2006.12.10 11:02:00 - [26] Why not make it that any one accessing deadspace have to use the warpgate, just like the mission runner after all the mission runner has to due to the fact warp engines are not suppose to work in dead space so it would make the game more realistic. Jack Cromwell Azure Horizon
Aphotic Raven Gallente Spectral Armada Eternal Empire	Posted - 2006.12.10 11:12:00 - [27] Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch 1) You completely failed to think about wartargets. It's great that they aren't invincible in missions anymore. 2) I think if people warp into deadspace pockets of another mission owner without being in gang with him he should be flagged like a can thief. Then if some punk comes into your mission spot you get to blow him up (if you can!) Great idea there, i think if you go into someones deadspace uninvited you should start off red. Other than that. Leave everything alone, screw the carebears... Quote: Melicien Tetro: I tried to fight a shark with a pistol underwater once, and I'll be **ed if he didn't laugh at me and eat me. Sharks need a ***** nerf. True story
Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Momentum.	Posted - 2006.12.10 11:13:00 - [28] Originally by: Jack Cromwell Why not make it that any one accessing deadspace have to use the warpgate, just like the mission runner after all the mission runner has to due to the fact warp engines are not suppose to work in dead space so it would make the game more realistic. err...we do use the warp gate. Thing is..its usually a cloaked recon so you dont see it till it scrambles you
Jessica Lorelei Minmatar Decimus Corp Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.12.10 11:16:00 - [29] how many topics about the same bloody subject do we need???? almost makes mewant to grief mission runners, which would be unfair concidering its a vocal minority crying about it.
NocturnalDeath Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.10 11:18:00 - [30] Originally by: Jessica Lorelei how many topics about the same bloody subject do we need???? almost makes mewant to grief mission runners, which would be unfair concidering its a vocal minority crying about it. /signed I'm a mission runner and all these mission runners whinining have made me want to scan them down and kill them all



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