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Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage
RAZOR Alliance
608
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Posted - 2015.08.22 10:31:18 -
[1] - Quote
I've seen a lot of dissent and dissatisfaction through the internet, forums here and elsewhere, the chans and so on and it's had me thinking for a long time. When I stumbled across this video about WH40K today: Who is this hobby for? it made me think a little harder.
I was reading that old TMC post from James315 that he made back in 2012 about highsec. I've been reading suggestions to delete highsec, to nerf incursions, to nerf ships and otherwise make the game different to what it is today. I've been reading and thinking a lot. Who is EVE for anymore? Well it's not the same game I signed up to in 2009 (and thank **** for that) I know that much. Is it for me? What does EVE quantifiably offer me that keeps me engaged?
I know that GMs talk to newbies quite frequently about what they're experiencing and if they have any feelings on a particular matter but I don't feel like old players of 5+ years have their opinions polled. Like CCP said back in 2013 or so during a CSM summit - players who play for more than 2 years are unlikely to unsub permanently. This is a philsophy that forms a cornerstone of their interest in player retention - they're not worried about vets and fogies leaving because the statistics suggest they won't. But if that is true why are we seeing so much hate towards the game right now? Why are people feeling so jaded and burnt out?
In one of my community chats a guy resubbed last night and was told he wasted his money. To me that's terrible. Telling someone that could be done for a lot of reasons but it doesn't change the fact that trolling or not to say that to someone is terrible and doubly more so if it is true. A resubbing character being told he just wasted his money despite him not knowing what has changed since he left. Marinate on that, bub.
Who is EVE for? What does it offer you as a player with 2+ years of game time?
I know some people will claim its because there are no good alternatives right now and that may be true. I guess I've never really thought about it before. I think I play EVE still since 2009 because I like the premise? but the execution leaves me unsatisfied.
Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
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Retired Raver
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
5
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Posted - 2015.08.22 10:44:04 -
[2] - Quote
Some people have been playing this game for a long time, and I suspect many of them still play only due to habit and sunk cost fallacy. Those are the people who complain the loudest. I doubt many of them are actually having fun when they log in; they're like self-hating alcoholics who refuse to give up because then all the money they already spent on booze would be wasted.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
39548
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Posted - 2015.08.22 10:50:52 -
[3] - Quote
For me, it's the constant pvp in a sandbox environment; including all the many forms that pvp involves - not just combat, but market pvp, scams, metagame - all of it.
That the environment pits me against potentially everyone else in every aspect of the game is the challenge I enjoy. Interaction through competition.
If it was themepark based or provided themepark elements, I'd ignore it like I ignore all other games (though I have played a bit of Kerbal lately).
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Salvos Rhoska
1266
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Posted - 2015.08.22 10:59:57 -
[4] - Quote
Bolied down, you are asking whether EVE is for vets or noobs.
Is that correct?
Id think the answer is its a hobby for both.
CCPs challenge is retaining new players past a hump, and then retaining those who make it past that, beyond that.
As to what particulars of the game retain players interests, both new and old, those are as varied as opportunities are in EVE as a sandbox, ie:nigh limitless and more than any one player can conceivably exhaust.
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1279
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Posted - 2015.08.22 11:00:43 -
[5] - Quote
Treating EvE like a game is essential IMO to prevent a burnout but this is difficult. There is a certain line of involvement you may never cross or you will be sucked in (responsibility, obligation) ... on the other side, EvE won't exists with all the fleet commanders, corp leaders, industrialist, staff. You can be casual, independent, and have fun, but this also excludes you from a lot of group content and always leaves you with a guilty conscience being on the consuming side most of the time ...
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Salvos Rhoska
1266
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Posted - 2015.08.22 11:05:56 -
[6] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:T always leaves you with a guilty conscience being on the consuming side most of the time ...
Guilty conscience for consuming in EVE?
Oo...
The players involved in populating those larger actions, organised/led by others, are themselves also producing content.
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voetius
Quiet Days in Clichy
366
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Posted - 2015.08.22 11:16:06 -
[7] - Quote
For me, it's the best trading simulation I've played. The X-games, although great in their own way, don't really count for me as they are single-player and I just got to the point of asking myself what is the point of building a massive trade empire that only you have access to.
I've tried dabbling in other games but they all seemed so bland compared to Eve. If there was some other game that I thought was better I would probably go and have a look :) |
Arbitos
GamCorp
Almost Broken
44
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Posted - 2015.08.22 11:27:02 -
[8] - Quote
Retired Raver wrote:Some people have been playing this game for a long time, and I suspect many of them still play only due to habit and sunk cost fallacy. Those are the people who complain the loudest. I doubt many of them are actually having fun when they log in; they're like self-hating alcoholics who refuse to give up because then all the money they already spent on booze would be wasted.
Not everyone gives a **** about money bro, granted could've probably hired a decent pole dancer for a few nights with what I've spent on eve over the years. I've also spent a lot of money on pole dancers too, I wouldn't say due to habit or alcohol... Wait... Okay, but money still isn't an issue, enjoyed them both, money well spent. |
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1279
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Posted - 2015.08.22 11:29:27 -
[9] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:T always leaves you with a guilty conscience being on the consuming side most of the time ... Guilty conscience for consuming in EVE? Oo... The players involved in populating those larger actions, albeit organised/led by others, are themselves also producing content on their own part.
That's true it's a symbiosis, but if nobody takes 'X'es, provides narrative, structure, tools or reliably scouts WH chains, EvE would be a dull place. The scripted parts are not what keeps you around for years ...
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Retired Raver
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
6
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Posted - 2015.08.22 12:04:48 -
[10] - Quote
Arbitos wrote:Retired Raver wrote:Some people have been playing this game for a long time, and I suspect many of them still play only due to habit and sunk cost fallacy. Those are the people who complain the loudest. I doubt many of them are actually having fun when they log in; they're like self-hating alcoholics who refuse to give up because then all the money they already spent on booze would be wasted.
Not everyone gives a **** about money bro, granted could've probably hired a decent pole dancer for a few nights with what I've spent on eve over the years. I've also spent a lot of money on pole dancers too, I wouldn't say due to habit or alcohol... Wait... Okay, but money still isn't an issue, enjoyed them both, money well spent.
Congratulations, you're not one of the people I was describing in my post.
Anyway, sunk cost fallacy also applies to time and effort spent, not just money. |
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Jenshae Chiroptera
2239
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Posted - 2015.08.22 12:36:32 -
[11] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:... I know some people will claim its because there are no good alternatives right now .... Quite a lot of this for me.
EVE and Go are pretty much all I play lately. Other games, I either quickly broke the back of their depth and lost interest or they were dumbed down and eroded until they became too simple and tedious. (Time + grind = success.)
Players should either have the brains to figure it out or the social skills to get help.
I think really good games should leave the option wide open to fail right out of them completely.
... and yes, I can imagine a MMO that I would rather play but that is where it is, in dream land.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
There are other ways to fix Null Sec stagnation and Fozzie SOV is the wrong approach.
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Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
409
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Posted - 2015.08.22 13:28:08 -
[12] - Quote
This Hobby is for 20k - 30k of individuals spreaded out all over the world who are 24/7/365 online.
This guy should really cut his finger and never open the box.
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Azda Ja
Green Skull LLC
4276
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Posted - 2015.08.22 13:36:42 -
[13] - Quote
Masochists.
Because sometimes you die. And sometimes we are why. GSLLC is Recruiting.
Grrr I tell you. Grrr.
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Salvos Rhoska
1266
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Posted - 2015.08.22 13:42:32 -
[14] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
In one of my community chats a guy resubbed last night and was told he wasted his money. To me that's terrible. Telling someone that could be done for a lot of reasons but it doesn't change the fact that trolling or not to say that to someone is terrible and doubly more so if it is true. A resubbing character being told he just wasted his money despite him not knowing what has changed since he left. Marinate on that, bub.
This part bugged me enough that Im prompted to return and comment on it, as I see this elsewhere online as well.
This paragraph carries aspects of social fascism in terms of undue judgement of what someone, anyone, says, as their opinion whether they are "trolling" or not. They have their reasons. You dont have to like it, or agree with it, but its their opinion, and they are as entitled to it as you are your own.
The common denominator here, is you dont like what they are saying, think it is wrong, and want it to stop.
Why? Who are you to say whats right or wrong, good or bad, over and beyond their own views on those?
By all means debate your own position against theirs to your hearts content, but your attitude carries degrees of an assumption of moral superiority, and an attempt to propagate social sanction against their opinions.
Thats something for you to marinate on too, bub.
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Harry Forever
SpaceJunkys
1252
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Posted - 2015.08.22 15:01:07 -
[15] - Quote
man had their toy train in the past now they have their spaceships
SpaceJunkys on YouTube - Harry Forever on the Forums
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
16944
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Posted - 2015.08.22 15:07:49 -
[16] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:I've seen a lot of dissent and dissatisfaction through the internet, forums here and elsewhere, the chans and so on and it's had me thinking for a long time. When I stumbled across this video about WH40K today: Who is this hobby for? it made me think a little harder. I was reading that old TMC post from James315 that he made back in 2012 about highsec. I've been reading suggestions to delete highsec, to nerf incursions, to nerf ships and otherwise make the game different to what it is today. I've been reading and thinking a lot. Who is EVE for anymore? Well it's not the same game I signed up to in 2009 (and thank **** for that) I know that much. Is it for me? What does EVE quantifiably offer me that keeps me engaged? I know that GMs talk to newbies quite frequently about what they're experiencing and if they have any feelings on a particular matter but I don't feel like old players of 5+ years have their opinions polled. Like CCP said back in 2013 or so during a CSM summit - players who play for more than 2 years are unlikely to unsub permanently. This is a philsophy that forms a cornerstone of their interest in player retention - they're not worried about vets and fogies leaving because the statistics suggest they won't. But if that is true why are we seeing so much hate towards the game right now? Why are people feeling so jaded and burnt out? In one of my community chats a guy resubbed last night and was told he wasted his money. To me that's terrible. Telling someone that could be done for a lot of reasons but it doesn't change the fact that trolling or not to say that to someone is terrible and doubly more so if it is true. A resubbing character being told he just wasted his money despite him not knowing what has changed since he left. Marinate on that, bub. Who is EVE for? What does it offer you as a player with 2+ years of game time? I know some people will claim its because there are no good alternatives right now and that may be true. I guess I've never really thought about it before. I think I play EVE still since 2009 because I like the premise? but the execution leaves me unsatisfied.
Are you having fun?
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage
RAZOR Alliance
609
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Posted - 2015.08.22 15:46:28 -
[17] - Quote
Speaking of misunderstanding I was pretty marinated at the time of posting the OP. The point of your quoted paragraph was that telling someone they wasted their money when they've only just returned to the game and not even qualifying it with a reason is a terrible thing to do because it creates a prejudice in the resubbing player against the game. There's no common denomination anywhere in this debate - I'm strictly neutral and my point of view is not the subject of the thread.
Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
406
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Posted - 2015.08.22 16:01:16 -
[18] - Quote
As a multi year player, what does it offer me?
For me it is the social and free play aspect of gaming. The non linear play of it allows me to do what I want, how I want, at what pace I want.
There is the understanding that others are in my sandbox. My playstyle, from mining to pvp is that I think ahead far enough that they cannot affect me. All of eve can come after me, yes, if I did not know, I probably would be ganked, but ships and assets mean that once onto it, would never get me. My hiding would then become my game.
Warhammer was actually a good choice of comparision. I used to be a very solid warhammer player. Warhammer is not just gaming but also modelling hobby. Unfortunately the makers of the game focused on a niche and top tier, and as such have booted out any potentially new players of the game. Much like when CCP ended up losing many subs because they focused so much on their top tier that they had nothing to bring others in to replace those that leave.
Warhammer is cascading bad. I left because the cost of spending outweighed anything. The cost of a leader fig is more than any of my Figmas (I am not ashamed to admit I have some figs). In fact, one full squad costs more than my first motorcycle. So a general basic painted army cost as much as I bought my Honda Nighthawk. If warhammer was smart, find out what new players dont need. Offer just what is needed to get into it, then sell specialized and more expensive stuff to the top players. "kitbash remaining spare parts" That means money is being spent on parts that cannot be used. Smart thing is split them into two kits. Buy the force, then have blister pack for weapon kits. Reduce detail as game kit, and then offer high detail pricer ones for the pros.
Continuing in the video, like collecting knives. A person can collect knives, and get nice ones. Most hobbies like that have affordable entries. But then you can have the the top tier level for others.
Onto eve, we shouldn't complain to all the base level stuff that CCP does. It is vital. People leave, no matter how hardcore, eventually people go inactive or less hardcore for the majority. Start at the base. Keep getting those people that haven't played or jaded from the past NPE. Make a solid foundation.
We have all the tools in game for longterm veteran play. But much of it has imbalances. Most of the people I know who left was because of end game imbalance. CCP changed (fozzysov?) and lost more, but that is short term. CCP has a choice, make changes, and revitalize the market to attract new buyers to the brand, or just keep trying to suck up to a small number of hardcore bittervets. CCP is a business that needs to make money. A small number of bittervets won't keep the servers online.
As General Motors how well focusing on just their aging Cadillac buyers was doing for them during the 80s and 90s?
It is business. CCP HAS to start catering to other player demographics and new players. That is what pays the bills. |
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
12875
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Posted - 2015.08.22 18:37:43 -
[19] - Quote
For what EVE is, not for what I want to climb up onto my soapbox and make it into by screaming really loud.
Sure there are some new systems I'd like to see added to the game, but that fit into the existing game style and not change what EVE already is. And it really doesn't matter if such new systems were added, or anything, as long as EVE remains EVE and not try to mimic some other game because some bored or new players want to turn it into some other favorite game of theirs.
And yeah, you can lose your 2+ year vets, all of them, I've seen it happen in a landslide.
I'm in it for the money
Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
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Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
32
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Posted - 2015.08.22 20:24:32 -
[20] - Quote
EvE is for the mentally unstable, the narcissist or psychopath, the ones who have a superiority complex, the emo and the body builder who shoots 50mg of adrenalin every day, it's for the people who have OCD and ADHD.
EvE is not for the ordinary. |
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