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Old Winter
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Posted - 2003.11.22 18:25:00 -
[1]
The odds of a mass participation event under current code is zero.
Anyone want to try to get a couple of large corps fighting each other in a system now?
And clearly a large corp with a grudge can bring down Eve anytime they want, just get their members to fly to a system.
Dev's you might want to consider the implications of that.
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There are no bugs just locked threads |
Drethen Nerevitas
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Posted - 2003.11.22 18:28:00 -
[2]
Now that's a threat.
_______________________________________________________________________
IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.
1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. |
FlareZFX
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Posted - 2003.11.22 18:31:00 -
[3]
That's some serious tool for organizing a demonstration to support some cause :)
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Bjorn Nilfheim
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Posted - 2003.11.22 18:33:00 -
[4]
hehe, we have managed to break the venal region this week with the massings of fleets on both sides. its major laggy and half of us get stuck :(.
Admiral of the Forsaken Fleets
Pillar of the Fallen Emperor |
FlareZFX
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Posted - 2003.11.22 18:36:00 -
[5]
Edited by: FlareZFX on 22/11/2003 18:40:13
Edited by: FlareZFX on 22/11/2003 18:37:04
I bet.. What could CCP really do if there was/is a big group of people who aren't happy with the current state of the game and wanted to voice their opinion in a way that CCP couldn't just ignore? They could bring part of the Eve world to its knees the same way as happened with this "event".
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Old Winter
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Posted - 2003.11.22 18:39:00 -
[6]
Oh dear, surely I have not let the cat out of the bag here.
Sharpen up that code chaps.
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There are no bugs just locked threads |
Jessica Logan
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Posted - 2003.11.22 18:42:00 -
[7]
You wouldn't do a damn thing to CCP unless you cancelled your account.
You'd **** off the players who have to put up with the lag, though.
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FlareZFX
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Posted - 2003.11.22 18:44:00 -
[8]
Edited by: FlareZFX on 22/11/2003 18:45:26
Do you think a f*ckup the magnitude of what we saw today doesn't cause account cancellations, or at least trigger it for those who've been consider doing it for some time? Sure it hurts CCP.
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Old Winter
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Posted - 2003.11.22 18:45:00 -
[9]
So you mean to say, if 2 large corps organised a war in a sector and it brought eve to its knees the rest of the player base would be furious the game was being played as it was advertised on the box????
I know where my anger would be directed.
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There are no bugs just locked threads |
StealthNet
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Posted - 2003.11.22 18:52:00 -
[10]
That was really awesome. I trully demonstration of how it SHOULDN'T be.
Now look at the news. Private ceremony heh ?
Good work.
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var'ulfur
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Posted - 2003.11.22 18:52:00 -
[11]
yes you guys please do bring eve down on porpouse i will laugh my butt off at the mass banning that come from it.
if you care so little about others that you would do a thing like that we dont need any of you playing this game. your like a bunch of 10 year olds grow up.
ive played online games since thier were online games. and not one handeled mass players in one spot. and its funnie how people come here and say things on a alt.
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Old Winter
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Posted - 2003.11.22 18:58:00 -
[12]
I am no alt and I am making a serious point.
I've no desire to bring Eve to its knees, CCP run events can do that.
The problem is, it is now clear, not only is it possible, but it is relatively easy and also well within the rules of the game.
Are CCP going to ban people for organising a corp war?
This is a problem and it is not going to go away by hoping nobody has noticed, they have.
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There are no bugs just locked threads |
FlareZFX
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Posted - 2003.11.22 18:59:00 -
[13]
Edited by: FlareZFX on 22/11/2003 19:06:12
Edited by: FlareZFX on 22/11/2003 19:05:59
 Quote:
yes you guys please do bring eve down on porpouse i will laugh my butt off at the mass banning that come from it.
if you care so little about others that you would do a thing like that we dont need any of you playing this game. your like a bunch of 10 year olds grow up.
ive played online games since thier were online games. and not one handeled mass players in one spot. and its funnie how people come here and say things on a alt.
DID I, at ANY point, suggest that an event like this should be organized? No, and there's no reason to start calling each other names, is there? I was merely thinking of the potential and the consequences.
Secondly, massive amounts of people gathering in a single system is in no way forbidden in the rules.
EDIT: Oh, and this isn't an alt. This is the only character that I play.
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StealthNet
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Posted - 2003.11.22 19:00:00 -
[14]
Quote:
I am no alt and I am making a serious point.
I've no desire to bring Eve to its knees, CCP run events can do that.
The problem is, it is now clear, not only is it possible, but it is relatively easy and also well within the rules of the game.
Are CCP going to ban people for organising a corp war?
This is a problem and it is not going to go away by hoping nobody has noticed, they have.
You are completely right. While wars popped out around us in the last 6 months, now we had a trully confirmation of the issue, CCP sponsored style.
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Shani
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Posted - 2003.11.22 19:01:00 -
[15]
just another (big) nail in the coffin
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Gan Howorth
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Posted - 2003.11.22 19:15:00 -
[16]
Its no biggie. They can just introduce a Eve Criminal Justice Bill banning gatherings of more than 7 captains in any one system.
This is an unfortunate problem. I said right at the very start of my forum posting career (i bloody did! honest!) that ultimately this would be the most important sticking point. If massive fleet battles are the pinnacle of play in many ways, and this is not possible...remind me what we doing this for again?
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var'ulfur
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Posted - 2003.11.22 19:19:00 -
[17]
did i say any one person but but anger somtimes shows intent the word threat was said doing things for a cause. now my english may not be so good but the words speak for themselves.
and ive see a few big wars as you say go off very well. and many problums of a game lie in the computer and connection of the people that play.
people always want things right now, man AO was almost unplayble for two months after release.i spent more time making bug reports than playing. this game plays like a dream for me i have had few ctd almost no lag ever and i play on a 3 year old sony pen 3.
they had the games and they went very well. but it is much easier to say somthing is broken insted of trying to help fix it.
if you have a problum make a bug report try to find out what happend to cause the problum in the first place.
be the solution insted of the problum |
StealthNet
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Posted - 2003.11.22 19:26:00 -
[18]
Suuuuuure.
290 players in one system, ALL OF THEM LAGGED TO DEATH, with an average screen loading time of 15 MINUTES.
Be part of the solution you say. You would be glad to know that that means 2 things: we cancel all our accounts so EVE won't have more than 100 players in any given system, or they close the servers.
what about that ?
Wake up my friend. We are not talking here about an exploit or something that the players, with some common sense would start helping out each other. We are talking about a very serious issue here, and it is server side A-L-L T-H-E W-A-Y.
Don't tell me my connection was a problem while I was trying to load the scene and getting an average of less than 1KB/sec from the servers. There were more 25 KB/sec left available just to render your theory useless.
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Old Winter
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Posted - 2003.11.22 19:30:00 -
[19]
var'ulfur until someone states there is a problem and how it might appear (and that is quite simply what I did) sticking your head in the sand is not going to work.
If large corp wars can go in a system without ludicrous lag times and Eve collapsing that will be fantastic.
If a lot of people can gather in one sector to see an event organised by CCP that would be great too.
I think your claims about how stable the system is can be taken with a pinch of salt along with your idea we are posting with alts and people are going to be banned for organising large player participation events.
Who they gonna ban for Ammar collapsing, all the players in the system when it collapsed or just the organisors of the event 
maximum occupancy in a solar system is a nice quick fix, to a big problem.
Perhaps it would not impact on gameplay too much.
So lets just say, fix it so Eve does not crash.
But how about fix it so the lag is not so bad it is possible to play the game.
Now I want it so I do not get lag-killed at the JIP point.
Shall we set the limit at say, 1 ship per system 
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There are no bugs just locked threads |
StealthNet
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Posted - 2003.11.22 19:38:00 -
[20]
BTW, Im still stuck in Amarr.
Maybe if I fill a harassment petition against... against... err, ccp ?
Just IMHO, the fact that ccp does not understand why their playerbase is so mad is the worst sign of all. They still can't see the bs and the smell from it. they still can't see what they are doing wrong.
Another point of view: I think they are saying to each other right now: "what do they want ? there were almost 300 players in one single system, what did the players expect to happen ? No lag, no problems ?"
short answer ? a booming YES. And that is based solely on official statements like some recent inteviews where some at CCP expect to brake a record of 10K players online at the same time (I can't remember that quote without laughing).
Ok, 10k players at the same time ? Sure, but nobody can jump around, no highway, no more than 10 players per system, no fighting, no market, fitting etc etc etc.
I think if they manage to fulfill the above requirements, they will be able to sqeeze at least a 100k players at the same time... to the expense of rendering the game a 3D accelerated, cpu-burning IRC client.
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var'ulfur
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Posted - 2003.11.22 19:38:00 -
[21]
well ponder this have you played any online game that did not have the same lag with 290 players in it?
lol i remember earth and beyond had lag with 60 players in any one place just sitting thier.
and did you forget this is just a game you pay 13 dollars for a month. most of us need the internet connection for our day to day work and life. so i cant see why peope get so angry about somthing you pay pennies for a day to play and if you real hate it just leave.
angry words never get a responce form anyone in the biz world or out. that is why i come here to see peole rant like a 5 year olds with his toy taken away.
tell me when (not one person im talking about here but just a stament) read what i write do the veins pop out on your forehead? if so you need to stop being online and go out and see the world you need a break. |
Old Winter
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Posted - 2003.11.22 19:46:00 -
[22]
Nobody was/is getting angry, we were having an interesting discussion until you came along with the LMAO cannot wait to see you organise such an event and all get banned. I love how you post with alts nonsense.
And even that total waste of keyboard tapping has been treated with rather more respect than it deserved.
So you like playing duff games, fine.
I like to try to improve a game for everyone and if enough people notice this game can fall on its face just about anytime they want it too perhaps CCP will start getting to work on improving the thing, one way or another.
Perhaps you were not on UO on the days of the rebellions when the player base was low enough you could organise the storming of Lord Brits castle, without those pioneers these games woul still be in the dark ages.
Already we have the idea of system limits, there will be others.
So how about you go play on your laggy games while some people here try to thrash out a better solution.
Just coz you can find something worse does not make this great.
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There are no bugs just locked threads |
Gan Howorth
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Posted - 2003.11.22 19:48:00 -
[23]
I don't really understand it. Cant be a bandwidth issue. Can't be an internal network bottleneck around the actual servers...100mbit ethernet minimum right? So its purely hardware compounded by what must be awfully inefficent coding...oh and the oh so not scalable MS platform.
So who would be happy with a one month downtime whilst they rewrite the entire chassis and port it to mainframe whislt they're at it?
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Gan Howorth
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Posted - 2003.11.22 19:50:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Gan Howorth on 22/11/2003 19:50:55
begone foul duplicate post!
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StealthNet
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Posted - 2003.11.22 19:50:00 -
[25]
Quote:
well ponder this have you played any online game that did not have the same lag with 290 players in it?
lol i remember earth and beyond had lag with 60 players in any one place just sitting thier.
and did you forget this is just a game you pay 13 dollars for a month. most of us need the internet connection for our day to day work and life. so i cant see why peope get so angry about somthing you pay pennies for a day to play and if you real hate it just leave.
angry words never get a responce form anyone in the biz world or out. that is why i come here to see peole rant like a 5 year olds with his toy taken away.
tell me when (not one person im talking about here but just a stament) read what i write do the veins pop out on your forehead? if so you need to stop being online and go out and see the world you need a break.
With all due respect, I can't imagine how wrong you are.
I'm here to complain, to say what I think, because I pay for it ? NO. I'm here because I LIKE EVE. When you don't care about one thing, you don't complain a bit, you WALK AWAY.
I used to play Ultima Online a LOT in free shards. I already saw 500+ players online in one SINGLE shard, with shoddy hardware - compared to EVE infra-structure (ONE server ONLY). I already participated in quests in this same shard with more than 100 players in the same region. Im talking about a server side software developed by the community, without ANY payment at all (Sphere).
Now, let's stop comparing eve to other MMORPGs out there. you don't have any right to do that, simply because there is no comparison. You have to compare EVE with the own statements from the DEVs, and from what was advertised.
Their main idea is to have a single universe to handle everybody. No sharding. 10K players at a given time online. These are official statements, not mine. Now please, explain to me how they will accomplish that with today's demonstration.
What is even MORE important: if you found that it is so simple to conclude that the event was going to be a lag madness, why in the hell did they boosted it for almost a week ? why didn't they announced it was gonna be a private ceremony in the first place ?
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KrapYl
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Posted - 2003.11.22 20:00:00 -
[26]
I havent seen or heard about a MMORPG withh 300 people looking at eachother, and have reasonable response time from the server...
AO ( www.anarchy-online.com ) has a absolutly max of 60 players in same "grid"... if there is 60, u simply can not move in that direction... u have to wait for people to die/logoff/go away.... i often experience it when we have tower wars (AO tower = Player stations / entity), when too popular guilds is under attack, crowd control steps in, and blocks off players with invisible walls....
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Old Winter
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Posted - 2003.11.22 20:05:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Old Winter on 22/11/2003 20:07:24
Why-o why didn't all you clever types with so much experience of these games tell CCP before they organised the event.
It would have saved so much grief.
I cannot imagine CCP are very pleased to hear yo lot suggest the game just cannot be created as they expected it too and that a decent player gathering will bring this place to its knees everytime.
10,000 players on a shard anyone taking bets?
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There are no bugs just locked threads |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.22 20:09:00 -
[28]
Quote:
I havent seen or heard about a MMORPG withh 300 people looking at eachother, and have reasonable response time from the server...
AO ( www.anarchy-online.com ) has a absolutly max of 60 players in same "grid"... if there is 60, u simply can not move in that direction... u have to wait for people to die/logoff/go away.... i often experience it when we have tower wars (AO tower = Player stations / entity), when too popular guilds is under attack, crowd control steps in, and blocks off players with invisible walls....
Yeap. Performance wise, Eve is pretty much on par with other games currently on the market. They do still have an issue with groups in a single solar system affecting performance across many solar systems. 300 people in Omni-1 might crash Omni-1 but it won't take down all of Rubi-Ka.
This was poor event management combined with some lurking load balancing issues. NOBODY sane and responsible for running a MMOG would attempt to bring together a large mass of players all at the same location. SOE/Verant, Funcom, MS/Turbine all of them know what would happen:
server failure.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Old Winter
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Posted - 2003.11.22 20:25:00 -
[29]
I expect to see maximum limits set on the number of players within a system very soon, to stop player revolts, at least I darn well hope so.
Anyone that thought I was suggesting player led revolts does not know me, I'm suggesting CCP buck their ideas up before it gets to that.
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There are no bugs just locked threads |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.11.22 20:29:00 -
[30]
"I expect to see maximum limits set on the number of players within a system very soon, to stop player revolts, at least I darn well hope so."
... 'Tis would only make such revolts easier, i figure.
(bring enough people in Yulai to meet the limit, watch everyone else get the "no can jump, system full" error, watch the Help channel blow up)
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Old Winter
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Posted - 2003.11.22 20:34:00 -
[31]
Aye, it would either be blocked gates or Eve brought down by too many loading into one system.
Neither is brilliant, but one is better than the other.
With the code in its present state they have got a big problem on their hands and we have all seen it in action.
It really is only a matter of time before player led revolts do occur and all within the current game rules.
Now they have to find a way of heading this off and when they do that the game will be better for us all.
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There are no bugs just locked threads |
StealthNet
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Posted - 2003.11.22 20:40:00 -
[32]
I'd rather cope with a limit of, say, 100 players per system than with what happened today.
It's easy to conclude that if they thought the servers would halt, they wouldn't advertise the ceremony, maybe not even make it public.
Now, a side effect: imagine a choke point. Imagine that I want to trap everyone that is beyond that system in some region. I get my corp mates to the choke point system and voila.
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Gan Howorth
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Posted - 2003.11.22 20:43:00 -
[33]
I would expect the gate blocking with a cancellable queueing system would be the only way...
However, even this is more ropey than Captain Salty Sea Dog's used fishing net emporium.
Nice way to camp and indeed seal off whole regions of space.
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MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2003.11.22 20:46:00 -
[34]
It¦s so funny. A good chunk of you guys was in beta. Was it any different back then? Did you actually expect it to work today? I didn¦t even think about going to Amarr because it was clear that the system would go boom... and so it happened.
CCP needs to fix key issues before doing any kind of large scale event, or run limited events like the tournament.
Trying to run large scale events now is pretty much like trying to drive without tires... it¦s pointless 
Well... all we can do is wait for the patch, and hope that CCP have their priorities sorted right.
Mai's Idealog |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.22 20:54:00 -
[35]
Quote:
It¦s so funny. A good chunk of you guys was in beta. Was it any different back then? Did you actually expect it to work today? I didn¦t even think about going to Amarr because it was clear that the system would go boom... and so it happened.
Was safely picking up minerals in my Mammoth for some ship construction 
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Drutort
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Posted - 2003.11.22 21:14:00 -
[36]
Quote:
"I expect to see maximum limits set on the number of players within a system very soon, to stop player revolts, at least I darn well hope so."
... 'Tis would only make such revolts easier, i figure.
(bring enough people in Yulai to meet the limit, watch everyone else get the "no can jump, system full" error, watch the Help channel blow up)
ya just watch the pirates take over a system with the max p layer... so tell me what will happen when a popular system that YOU MUST pass through is MAXED? oh wait... approaching star gate... jumping... access denied!! AHAHA now you get blow up because you CANT JUMP INTO A SYSTEM...
Really all this means is that there are some major problemsą
What I would like is them to fix the jump in pointsą and make them be excluded from the solar system maxą so that you can pass through systemsą or else if they donĘt do so, the above will happeną
If you think it cant happen it will happen just like so many other things people didnĘt think could happen or be taken advantage of, it WILL BE
DO you think CCP can think of every system and change the max sizesą before the pirates or other griefers find out a nice place to do thisą and wait until X amount of days/weeks until ccp finds a hot fix for the hot fix.. LOL
Game engine limitations is the worst kind, in my mindą it probably would take a lot of work to redo stuffą esp if you based everything on oneą and then find out that there is a some major limitation that players could take advantage of, and no im not talking about lag, were talking about a lot worse hereą either really super long lag/disconnections or over all denial of system/server
maybe ccp should have some kind of a tweak, that they can set up a system they will have events in to give extra boost so that they can hold more players then your avg system...
now that would be a smart fix and wouldnt be that bad... they could make a dynamic system that puts the resources were there is high demand in... etc...
im sure it can be done  
support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo
my MoBlog |
Old Winter
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Posted - 2003.11.22 21:34:00 -
[37]
It is true, nobody said it would be easy to solve a problem which is quite obviously at the root of this issue.
It is however pretty simple to bring the game to its knees.
Right now not only can access be denied to a particular system by bringing enough people into a system it can also ensure players get stuck there for hours and eve gets a reboot, 3 hours later some people are still staring at black screens.
So lets see if that problem can be fixed pronto while work on a better fix is introduced.
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There are no bugs just locked threads |
Qandor
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Posted - 2003.11.22 21:38:00 -
[38]
Quote:
well ponder this have you played any online game that did not have the same lag with 290 players in it?
lol i remember earth and beyond had lag with 60 players in any one place just sitting thier.
Well yes I have pondered. EQ with over 500 people in the bazaar. Now that is not 500 static ship graphics. That is over 500 players dressed in thousands of different gear items, moving around, breathing animations, some spell casting, emotes (visual emotes), hundreds of transactions taking place, untold amount of conversations, and ad spam like you see in the eve trade channel if not worse.
Was it laggy? You bet it was laggy.
Did anyone get stuck? Not a soul.
Were you able to conduct your business? Yes.
Did they have to seal off the zone? No - this zone was like this everday at prime time.
Also, the bazaar zone in EQ was also tiny thus packing everyone together. The entire zone is no bigger than the size of a football field.
So please stop making excuses for crappy eve servers. This game was advertised to handle ten of thousands of players. It chokes on 5,000 players, even with them well dispersed in the some 20,000 eve zones. Yes, every system is a zone and every station is a zone.
Played EQ for close to 3 years. In 3 years had reason to petition twice. How many petitions has the average EVE player had to file? How many times have you had to relog or clear the damn cache?
Big deal everyone is in one universe. Sounds great on the surface but what good is it if the servers can't handle it?
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.22 21:56:00 -
[39]
Quote:
Well yes I have pondered. EQ with over 500 people in the bazaar. Now that is not 500 static ship graphics. That is over 500 players dressed in thousands of different gear items, moving around, breathing animations, some spell casting, emotes (visual emotes), hundreds of transactions taking place, untold amount of conversations, and ad spam like you see in the eve trade channel if not worse.
Was it laggy? You bet it was laggy.
Did anyone get stuck? Not a soul.
Were you able to conduct your business? Yes.
Did they have to seal off the zone? No - this zone was like this everday at prime time.
Also, the bazaar zone in EQ was also tiny thus packing everyone together. The entire zone is no bigger than the size of a football field.
So please stop making excuses for crappy eve servers. This game was advertised to handle ten of thousands of players. It chokes on 5,000 players, even with them well dispersed in the some 20,000 eve zones. Yes, every system is a zone and every station is a zone.
Played EQ for close to 3 years. In 3 years had reason to petition twice. How many petitions has the average EVE player had to file? How many times have you had to relog or clear the damn cache?
Big deal everyone is in one universe. Sounds great on the surface but what good is it if the servers can't handle it?
Not exactly a fair comparison, Qandor. EQ has had years to address congestion problems and optimize code. For all we know, the bazaar zones in EQ could be running on a Cray supercomputer because it's a known congestion point.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2003.11.22 22:14:00 -
[40]
Quote:
Not exactly a fair comparison, Qandor. EQ has had years to address congestion problems and optimize code. For all we know, the bazaar zones in EQ could be running on a Cray supercomputer because it's a known congestion point.
Besides that, you can compare as much as you like... it certainly won¦t change anything here, now.
Mai's Idealog |
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