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Scanprobes even less worthwhile than pre-Kali

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SN3263827 The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.13 21:28:00 - [1] I am a pirate. I make no excuses for that - its one of the professions on the promotional literature for the game, and factional warfare encourages us to ally ourselves with the Guristas. I also admit that scanprobing immediately following Kali was too easy. We were finding targets faster than we could warp to them and kill them. I was actually glad when I saw that it was to be "fixed" in today's patch. However, the "fix" I envisaged was to make the probes work as they should - what had made the probes too good was the way that warping to a spot in deadspace at any range takes you directly to the gate at 0km. This meant that the deviation aspect of probes was worthless, as warping to a result in amission landed you on teh gate regardless of deviation. I thought that perhaps they would be fixed so that the deviation would land you at a distance from the gate, requiring you to drop a shorter ranged probe in order to reduce the deviation. Not so. It would appear that the change was the simplest possible - adjusting the probability of getting a result for a ship in deadspace. "That's no too bad", I thought, remembering that overlapping two probes combines their scan strength and therefore increases the chances of getting a positive result. Unfortunately, after 4 hours of probing I've given up. The reason? The same reason probes were changed in the first place - mission spots are off-plane. If I cannot warp to a spot where I can drop a probe such that the intersection of two probes covers the mission spot, I cannot use that mechanic in order to increase my chances. What is even worse than pre-Kali? I can't even use probes to create the required scanspots because probes don't work like that any more. Probes are broken as far as mission scanning are concerned. They still work for finding safespotted fleets, but are completely useless for finding deadspace spots. _____________________________________________
Malachi Nefzen Caldari Insane Decision	Posted - 2006.12.13 21:43:00 - [2] Edited by: Malachi Nefzen on 13/12/2006 21:47:56 although I suppose it should be possible to scan them down using exploration probes, if you can get with in 4au. but as missions usally generate well beyond this range, aswell as off solar planes as stated above, its i nearly impossibble chalk another victory up for the mission w h o r e s
Malachi Nefzen Caldari Insane Decision	Posted - 2006.12.13 22:41:00 - [3] Edited by: Malachi Nefzen on 13/12/2006 22:47:12 I just finished running some test. (roughly 100 scans using recon probes, and about 20 scans using exploration probes, grav and ladar based, at distance of 7milliom km from a mission dead space with several playerships ranging from battleship to cruiser, and combat drones active) Recon probes fathom, ferret, snoop, spook, and deep space will NOT detect anything within a deadspace zone. The exploration probes [sensor type]comb, pursuit, quest, and sift WILL detect objects inside of deadspace, although you do not receive 100% accuracy unless using a sift probe (range of .5au, scanner strenght of 2000). So CCP has effectilvy removed scanning down mission runners, as you can not maneuver a ship close enough to a mission dead space zone. huzzah
Caeruleus Ardea The Black Fleet	Posted - 2006.12.15 04:17:00 - [4] /RANT!!! I must say that this does indeed need fixing. There has to be a resolution to this so that there is at least a chance that you can scan someone out in mission. I spent a few hours trying to figure out if it was possible to even find anyone in a mission and eventually had to resort to asking those in the missions themselves. I ended up with the same result, mission runners were now @#$%@#$^&&^ing unscanable. ARRRGGHH!! I waited and trained for this stuff just for this very purpose and now so soon after pirates got a little love we have the carpet pulled out again. Can we please have the 'fix' to the bug fixed again with a bit more chance and skill involved and the possibility of finding mission runners w/ recon probes. Or at least make the complex show up on the scanner, honestly those things are huge and should be scannable themselves. /RANT!!! END caeruleus ardea
DuPuy	Posted - 2006.12.15 06:40:00 - [5] I don't understand this... I tested the probe fix this morning. I dropped two fathoms bracketing where my scanner indicated a big batch of missioners were... Within 40seconds I hard hard locks on two. I warped to their gates. Perhaps there is a training "threashold" level now that needs to be exceeded in order to succeed... I'll go back and do some more intensive probing tonight. But this morning I though the effect of the changes was to allow me to find two missioners out of the 10+ that were in that area... not all 10 at once!!!
Ishana Minmatar The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.15 12:01:00 - [6] I've said it before and I'll say it again: CCP should go back to the old scanning system with the scanning planes, apply the new skills to this system so it's faster and more accurate. Change the triangulation skill so it increases the scanning plane by about 20% per lvl. (so 2au scanning plane at lvl 5) This will allow people in normal savespots to be found pretty quickly, and mission runners will not be save, but you have to work for it to find them. (not a push of a button) I used to do this before kali and I would find missions in about 10-20 minutes. with the new skills I'd say it could be 5-15 minutes, which in my eyes would be good since you actually have to know what you're doing to even get a result, and if you're unlucky the mission has already ended. _________________________________________________________ Please resize your signature to the limits specified in the forum rules, thanks. -wystler ([email protected])
Ina Imani	Posted - 2006.12.15 13:35:00 - [7] Edited by: Ina Imani on 15/12/2006 13:37:49 Edited by: Ina Imani on 15/12/2006 13:35:13 I don't think CCP wants you to bug anyone doing a mission in deadspace. mission deadspace is meant to be "instance" and it's meant for person/gang running the mission only. imho anyway. you can thank to ppl jumping in and and preventing mission runners from finishing their mission objectives in highsec.
Shadoo North Eastern Swat	Posted - 2006.12.15 14:07:00 - [8] Affects of deadspace signature nerf should decrease based on system security. Problem solved. Risk & Reward.
Caletha	Posted - 2006.12.15 15:24:00 - [9] I wonder if this was due to the change, but it took me more then 2 hours yesterday (and several milions) to find a hidden complex in a 0.0 . Only to find that I couldnt really do much with it.
Ishan Shade	Posted - 2006.12.15 15:37:00 - [10] Originally by: Ina Imani Edited by: Ina Imani on 15/12/2006 13:37:49 Edited by: Ina Imani on 15/12/2006 13:35:13 I don't think CCP wants you to bug anyone doing a mission in deadspace. mission deadspace is meant to be "instance" and it's meant for person/gang running the mission only. imho anyway. you can thank to ppl jumping in and and preventing mission runners from finishing their mission objectives in highsec. Erm wrong: Originally by: Oveur EVE is primarily a PVP game and hence our focus is on making that experience balanced. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=155334&page=2#35
Ina Imani	Posted - 2006.12.15 15:55:00 - [11] Originally by: Ishan Shade Originally by: Ina Imani Edited by: Ina Imani on 15/12/2006 13:37:49 Edited by: Ina Imani on 15/12/2006 13:35:13 I don't think CCP wants you to bug anyone doing a mission in deadspace. mission deadspace is meant to be "instance" and it's meant for person/gang running the mission only. imho anyway. you can thank to ppl jumping in and and preventing mission runners from finishing their mission objectives in highsec. Erm wrong: Originally by: Oveur EVE is primarily a PVP game and hence our focus is on making that experience balanced. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=155334&page=2#35 oh cmon dont take stuff from between lines of totaly different topic... There will always be areas where PvP is encouraged and areas where it is discouraged. just live with that.
Le Pecarosh	Posted - 2006.12.15 16:54:00 - [12] Originally by: Ishan Shade Erm wrong: Originally by: Oveur EVE is primarily a PVP game and hence our focus is on making that experience balanced. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=155334&page=2#35 Rofl. Yeah, he was talking about the same topic, haha... Don't take things out of context, please.
Tasith	Posted - 2006.12.15 17:49:00 - [13] if people where complaining to was too easy and now the accruacy si toon bad I would add a new skill (rank 4) which improves the accuracy by 15% each level That would make everybody happy
Gaogan Gallente Solar Storm Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.12.15 18:55:00 - [14] Originally by: Tasith if people where complaining to was too easy and now the accruacy si toon bad I would add a new skill (rank 4) which improves the accuracy by 15% each level That would make everybody happy Please actually READ the thread before posting. The problem is not that you get an inaccurate scan, it is that you get no scan at all. And there already IS a skill to give more accurate scans.
SN3263827 The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.15 21:14:00 - [15] Edited by: SN3263827 on 15/12/2006 21:14:57 Originally by: DuPuy I don't understand this... I tested the probe fix this morning. I dropped two fathoms bracketing where my scanner indicated a big batch of missioners were... Within 40seconds I hard hard locks on two. I warped to their gates. Perhaps there is a training "threashold" level now that needs to be exceeded in order to succeed... I'll go back and do some more intensive probing tonight. But this morning I though the effect of the changes was to allow me to find two missioners out of the 10+ that were in that area... not all 10 at once!!! Its not always possible to bracket the spots in this way. Not all systems have batches of 10 mission runners ready to be probed out. Today I tried to probe myself out using an alt while I sat in a deadspace spot. My alt sat at the deadspace gate and used 5au probes. 10 scans and I couldn't scan myself down. I then tried bracketing, but not this mision spot, because of its position it was impossible to bracket. I had to accept another mission, and luckily I got one that was in a position to allow me to bracket it. Two 5au probes overlapping over the mission spot. I didn't get any results, again even after 10 scans. Anecdotal evidence of success don't change the fact that scanning is now so close to being impossible (scanning for an hour when I already knew where the target was) that it might as well be. Hell, we got a result on a ferox about half an hour after the server came up on Wednesday, but we haven't had one since. Not one. _____________________________________________
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.15 21:15:00 - [16] As I am not a pirate, and I don't scan mission runners I am certanly biased, but I feel that for missions in deadspace, that, as stated in play,is a area of space impervious to scanning, you should scan the deadspace pocket, not the ships whitin, so it is right to use the exploration probes. Probably the difficult to find the deadspace pocket is put too high, as CCP is still searching for the right balance. And yes, with maybe the exception of the storyline missions, the deadspace pockets should be in the 4 AU range of the exploration probes, so to be scannable with them.
Solant Minmatar C A P S U L E Edge of Sanity	Posted - 2006.12.16 00:29:00 - [17] Originally by: Ina Imani Edited by: Ina Imani on 15/12/2006 13:37:49 Edited by: Ina Imani on 15/12/2006 13:35:13 I don't think CCP wants you to bug anyone doing a mission in deadspace. mission deadspace is meant to be "instance" and it's meant for person/gang running the mission only. imho anyway. you can thank to ppl jumping in and and preventing mission runners from finishing their mission objectives in highsec. You could not be more wrong, sir. CCP is well aware that the moment they turn this game into PVE instanced EQ in space, the game will lose its charm (its getting to that point already, in fact). This is a serious issue and it really needs to be looked at.. I was able to track people down just fine pre-Kali, post-Kali it became quite a lot easier (and faster than reasonable)- now it is simply impossible/not worth the time investment cause by the time you can set up several probes any pilot with half a brain has already recognized the threat and left the mission, or has finished the mission anyway because it takes far too long to scan. It was interesting being able to actually kill people in lowsec again- guess its back to gatecamping for pirates everywhere? This needs to be addressed.
Shayla Sh'inlux Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.17 01:37:00 - [18] Just bumping it up in the vain hope a dev will see this and reply whether or not turning missions into instances was intended. Cos if it is they should be fair and square about this and admit they gave in to instancing and are moving their game to a PvE oriented WoW in space instead of a PvP oriented one. If it is not I'd like to see an ETA on the fix cos there's not much fun or skill involved in camping gates and neither is there much fun to be had when you see the 0,3 system you've been fanatically locking down for the last few weeks is packed with invulnerable mission runners. Originally by: "Cy4n1d3" You can't PVP with 4 mids.
subvert	Posted - 2006.12.17 16:03:00 - [19] They made it too easy, but then they nerfed it too hard in response. It's only a matter of time before people start using deadspace as safespots.
exarienne	Posted - 2006.12.18 14:39:00 - [20] For the first time since revelations i read non-trollish pirate post about mission probing. (lowsec mission runner myself) Early revelation probing system made me cancel my subscription: it made lowsec mission running suicidal, even highsec was subject to griefers, and most important reason - there was no response in this matter from ccp for two weeks (the fix was secondary issue - i just expected that devs would say anything about it - even "it is as we intended would" be better than silence) Now there is a change - i do not know how much safer i would be around my last base of operations, but i still have time to check it - i prefer to get some info on the forums before trying lowsec myself again - i still have to refit my ship lost to a pirate with "i win" button. As i read this topic i feel i might have a good chance of survival now, so i most probably raturn to eve soon. It seems that mission deadspaces are now almost instanced. It is by far better than with early revelations, but i understand that it is far from perfect. Warp to 0 was severe anti-pirate change, and making missions invisible makes pirate life even harder. It is also not well fitted for eve to turn missions into instances. I really hate an idea of pirate attacking me in mission, but it is part of the risk of lowsec. But it should not be easy at all - gatecamps and early revelation mission-runner hunting was kinda lame imho. I have nothing against being killed by pirate if he has to use some skills to get me, but im strongly against sticking big "shoot me" sign to my back as it was lately. In short - it seems that pirates are now too much on the loosing side against mission runners. Lowsec seems to be almost as safe as highsec, and that has no sense at all... Originally by: Leandro Salazar Now I really don't mind being ganked when I am careless, but I DO mind being forced to play the gank or be ganked game every waking moment
Cosmic Flame Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2006.12.18 15:15:00 - [21] Edited by: Cosmic Flame on 18/12/2006 15:18:19 Edited by: Cosmic Flame on 18/12/2006 15:16:33 Scan probes are far from "useless" as the OP says. Your only referring to deadspace probing. What about the rest? Probing a ship/gang of ships in space remains the same. I had made a few posts about how scanning was too easy post-Kali. Apparently CCP just made some "quick fix" and now made it too hard for scanning mission runners. I haven't tried it yet, but would like to know in practice how hard it has become. However, remember that if you could always scan down mission runners and make it so that - no matter how much skill you need - you could always find them, then it makes it viable to just camp out mission running systems. That in turn makes it so that it is unlikely to finish the missions. Missions do take hours to finish at times. What happens in consequence is quite simple, and it was what happened right after Kali - people move on to other things. I remember a few pirates yelling "adapt adapt adapt!!". And people did - they moved on and missions (in low sec anyways) became abandoned. Balancing is difficult no doubt. But CCP has a tendancy to tip the bucket to either one side or the other instead of leveling it. I think the best thing would be to make it like pre-kali, with respect to the deviations and to the need of ships having to be in a spot for the duration of the scan process. In other words, if the ship warps out before scan is finished, it fails. Now with recon launchers, scanning is way faster, and the chances of that happening is fairly reduced, ESPECIALLY with mission runners, as they are doing the mission and can't just warp in and out. And they are also putting more attention on the mission itself. With regards to the deviation, it should be as it was before. Long range probes = big deviation. Short range = short deviation. Being able to get in the same grid of a ship you're scanning for using anything other than a 5au probe sucks - period.
SN3263827 The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.19 07:23:00 - [22] Edited by: SN3263827 on 19/12/2006 07:24:58 Originally by: exarienne As i read this topic i feel i might have a good chance of survival now, so i most probably raturn to eve soon. It seems that mission deadspaces are now almost instanced. Indeed. If anything, there is now no reason that a mission runner with an ounce of sense should die in lowsec except to a largeish gate camp (and you can scout for those easily enough). Originally by: Cosmic Flame Scan probes are far from "useless" as the OP says. Your only referring to deadspace probing. What about the rest? Probing a ship/gang of ships in space remains the same. You are, of course, correct. Probing safespots is just as simple as it was before Rev 1.2 This post deals solely with mission spots and the now near-impossibility of scanning them down. I'm sorry if my use of hyperbole offended. _____________________________________________

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