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Turrets needs a change?

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Imperil Northern Intelligence SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.14 18:51:00 - [1] Is there any use of guns like Artilleries, Railguns and Beams besides for long range combat? You can not hit anything bigger then a Battleship without having to fitt tracking stuff and/or webifier. You will not be able to fitt any decent tank. You will not be able to NPC hunt at all. Due to this there is no real medium range in EVE, you either go fitt weapons like Pulses, Autocannons and Blasters with a tank, or you fitt a long range ship. There is no real inbetween, which I think is sad. I can not find one good reason to use any Railguns, Artilleries and Beams except when I am going to snipe. It seems like these guns was made to only hit stationary targets, and current tracking mechanism does'nt really help much either, especially for turrets. You either hit or you don't, compared to missiles which always hit, but with lower damage. How would it be if the turret tracking was changed into something similar as the missile tracking? What is your opinion towards tracking and guns in general, especially 'long range guns'? Support POS Overhaul - Read it NOW!
NoNah	Posted - 2006.12.14 18:55:00 - [2] To be honest, I think railguns, arts and beams are used way more than their shortrange counterparts. Basicly just 1on1 or small gang pvp that lives on shortrange guns. Fleets instapop at range, missioneers use long range, ratting works with either but I bet that short range weapons are a rarity here aswell. Atleast I prefer rails in front of blasters - unless going pvp solo or blobbish.
Imperil Northern Intelligence SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.14 19:01:00 - [3] Well I tried using railguns for NPC hunting, did'nt really work too well to be honest. I can not sitt at 40km to 50km with my 425mm Railguns as they get in range and under what my tracking can track. So the only way is to use it to snipe, warp in at 100km and shoot everything with max. damage before they get in range. Another thing is that short range guns optimal at most varies from 0km to 15km, while 'long range guns' from 15km to 220km. There is no middle in there. Other difference between the two is 'good' tracking vs. **** poor. But when you're looking from a large weapons perspective, you will need a webifier to hit a smaller targets good anyways. Support POS Overhaul - Read it NOW!
Jeanpierre Duvall Caldari Spectral Armada Eternal Empire	Posted - 2006.12.14 19:07:00 - [4] If you can use 425mm rail I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that you can use drones. 425mm rail Shoots at Battleships and battlecruisers. Drones eat Frigs and cruisers. I run missions with rails and have no problem at all. Just use your drones. :)
Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2006.12.14 19:14:00 - [5] I still think there is a place for a Medium Range/High DPS turret category. ~Thor Xian, Chief Administrator "For all your Material Needs, Vertigo One." Corp/Alliance Services
M00dy Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.12.14 19:52:00 - [6] The game mechanics don't fit will with medium range. Take a Arty Rupture at 60 kms. Warps in to shoot another cruiser. Cruiser warps off with some shield damage. There's no way to kill anything long range unless it's instpopped. If you have a gang with tacklers then it makes more sense to warp in using close range max dmg guns.
Imperil Northern Intelligence SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.14 20:09:00 - [7] What I am really trying to do here is to try and make an iniative to use something else then a Raven for NPC'ing at least. Why have the dilemma of not hitting a orbitting Cruiser with your 425mm, 350mm or Dual 250mm Railguns when you can just use the Raven to hit at least, but not necassarly good damage? :P Support POS Overhaul - Read it NOW!
Christopher Dalran	Posted - 2006.12.14 20:12:00 - [8] Edited by: Christopher Dalran on 14/12/2006 20:13:34 Well if you can go even 1 m/s faster than your target and you start at any range between 11-19 with a 20km scrammer (the ishtar af comes to mind) then you can simply fly circles around your target and in all likelyhood never have to use your tank. That range is too far for even large blasters and is too close for anything but small railguns to track (if your ship can move at a decent speed). Notice i'm using hybrids not lasers/projectiles as i dont have experience with them.
Imperil Northern Intelligence SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.14 20:20:00 - [9] Originally by: Christopher Dalran Edited by: Christopher Dalran on 14/12/2006 20:13:34 Well if you can go even 1 m/s faster than your target and you start at any range between 11-19 with a 20km scrammer (the ishtar af comes to mind) then you can simply fly circles around your target and in all likelyhood never have to use your tank. That range is too far for even large blasters and is too close for anything but small railguns to track (if your ship can move at a decent speed). Notice i'm using hybrids not lasers/projectiles as i dont have experience with them. 425mm nor 350mm will hit a orbitting Ishtar at 18km. Arguebly (sp?) the Dual 250mm _might_ hit a few times. So what do you do? You could use Neutron Blasters with Null, but tracking might become a problem there too due to the Null penalty. Havent really tried. There is no real middle ground, either you go beyond 30km, or stay within 10km. Support POS Overhaul - Read it NOW!
Bardi MecAuldnis Amarr Pirates of Destruction Union	Posted - 2006.12.14 21:43:00 - [10] As far as I know, the differences are kind of covered by the different races with lasers being the middle ground. It kind of goes: Blasters-Autocannons-Pulses-----Beams---Artilleries------Rails I may be wrong as I'm more close range than long. --- Hey hey let's go kenka suru! Taisetsuna mono protect my balls! Boku ga warui so lets fighting! LET'S FIGHTING LOVE!!!
Imperil Northern Intelligence SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.15 06:37:00 - [11] I guess your right, but that does not change how stupid the system is, especially the tracking part. Support POS Overhaul - Read it NOW!
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard	Posted - 2006.12.15 06:46:00 - [12] Originally by: Imperil Why have the dilemma of not hitting a orbitting Cruiser with your 425mm, 350mm or Dual 250mm Railguns when you can just use the Raven to hit at least, but not necassarly good damage? :P If you just sit there and expect your guns to hit the target, then you don't know your guns. The trick is to move in parallel with the cruiser, and thereby reduce transversal. Then they hit just fine. When using beams for NPC'ing, you need to work harder.
Kerik Igan Critical Analysis	Posted - 2006.12.15 07:37:00 - [13] Turrets take alot of work to properly deploy. I love missles because its in range or it isn't, plus you get a nice bonus when you are running from a target as the range is actually increased. A well fitted BS with nothing but rails (assuming he doesnt launch drones, which is plain stuipid) could conceivably be killed by a frigate because there is no way to hit em in close. The game can never be perfectly balanced, but I think the longer ranged is fine, except for the stuipid "optimal range" at which below they plain suck. --WTB AVITAR--
Spanker Genco	Posted - 2006.12.15 08:18:00 - [14] I have a friend with turrets - Shpank
Tiger Tamer	Posted - 2006.12.15 08:51:00 - [15] Originally by: Kerik Igan Turrets take alot of work to properly deploy. I love missles because its in range or it isn't, plus you get a nice bonus when you are running from a target as the range is actually increased. A well fitted BS with nothing but rails (assuming he doesnt launch drones, which is plain stuipid) could conceivably be killed by a frigate because there is no way to hit em in close. The game can never be perfectly balanced, but I think the longer ranged is fine, except for the stuipid "optimal range" at which below they plain suck. If someone is chasing you, shooting them with turrets shouldn't be any less effective unless they are speeding at an angle. As for making turrets "hit all the time" like missiles... hmm, well that would be fine. Don't forget to take away well-aimed hits, excellent hits, and of course wrecking hits while you're at it. But personally I like being rewarded for keeping the target under control and at the proper range, and keeping them there is very good damage, though I see the difficulty doing this with larger weapons. Maybe a tracking bonus for short range ammunition would be helpful. Can't think of anything else that wouldn't be totally unbalancing.
Zingu Gallente Crafty Productions Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.12.15 09:13:00 - [16] Drones go out to a bit over 50km and most ships that have problem with tracking can at least field 5 medium drones, with about a million SP you can in a battleship cause severe problems for just about any smaller ship in medium range. Also many of the battleships have split weapon systems or utility slots, if your not using your largest bore weapons you could slap a Nosferato or a launcher in there.
Flitz Farseeker Gallente Eve guardians	Posted - 2006.12.15 09:55:00 - [17] You could always stick in a blaster or two, or even a couple of small guns to deal with close range setups / frigs. In my limited experience, I find that drones and a webber work fine for most frigs including intys leaving your high slots free for bigger guns.
Fon Revedhort Alaska-McMillens	Posted - 2006.12.15 10:16:00 - [18] Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 15/12/2006 10:17:10 The real stupidity is that pulses outdamage beams in all their optimal range. Heavy Pulse with Scorch have more dps AND more range AND more tracking then Heavy Beams with Multifrequency (no one sane uses Gleam now. And even before Kali they were a suck)
Imperil Northern Intelligence SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.15 12:36:00 - [19] But when you have to fitt a webifier and/or tracking computers/enhancers to hit, what is the point in fitting them over other turrets when you can not even fitt a good/sustainable tank while having them. They are not much better then lower range turrets. Originally by: Fon Revedhort Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 15/12/2006 10:17:10 The real stupidity is that pulses outdamage beams in all their optimal range. Heavy Pulse with Scorch have more dps AND more range AND more tracking then Heavy Beams with Multifrequency (no one sane uses Gleam now. And even before Kali they were a suck) If this is true, it just screams of poor balancing and/or role of the different turrets. Support POS Overhaul - Read it NOW!
Imhotep Khem Total Mayhem. Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.15 13:25:00 - [20] Artilleries are used for pvp very frequently. I use them for gate camps and most operations when I am in cruiser or smaller. If you fit autocannons, you are going to have to close the distance to the target, by which time he will probably already be dead. Then you pick the 2nd target and start MWD toward it?? Nope, thats too much. Long range is much better in this case. Of course the high ROF of short range will likely get you a killmail. There is a gap for BS between short range and long range, but there is really no gap for cruiser and frigates. And cruisers sit nicely in the BS range gap. ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'.
Tiger Tamer	Posted - 2006.12.15 13:56:00 - [21] Originally by: Imperil But when you have to fitt a webifier and/or tracking computers/enhancers to hit, what is the point in fitting them over other turrets when you can not even fitt a good/sustainable tank while having them. They are not much better then lower range turrets. Originally by: Fon Revedhort Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 15/12/2006 10:17:10 The real stupidity is that pulses outdamage beams in all their optimal range. Heavy Pulse with Scorch have more dps AND more range AND more tracking then Heavy Beams with Multifrequency (no one sane uses Gleam now. And even before Kali they were a suck) If this is true, it just screams of poor balancing and/or role of the different turrets. Comparing T2 ammo to T1 isn't totally fair
Imperil Northern Intelligence SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.15 14:47:00 - [22] Originally by: Tiger Tamer Originally by: Imperil But when you have to fitt a webifier and/or tracking computers/enhancers to hit, what is the point in fitting them over other turrets when you can not even fitt a good/sustainable tank while having them. They are not much better then lower range turrets. Originally by: Fon Revedhort Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 15/12/2006 10:17:10 The real stupidity is that pulses outdamage beams in all their optimal range. Heavy Pulse with Scorch have more dps AND more range AND more tracking then Heavy Beams with Multifrequency (no one sane uses Gleam now. And even before Kali they were a suck) If this is true, it just screams of poor balancing and/or role of the different turrets. Comparing T2 ammo to T1 isn't totally fair Considering tracking and such, isnt Heavy Pulse with Scorch better then Heavy Beam with Gleam? Support POS Overhaul - Read it NOW!
Hephaesteus Gallente PILGRIMS Insane Asylum	Posted - 2006.12.15 15:20:00 - [23] I use rails in missions all the time only thing is with turrets you need good backup skills to use then effectively. ----------------------------------------------- Knowing all, when all is unknown.
Tiger Tamer	Posted - 2006.12.15 15:36:00 - [24] Originally by: Imperil Originally by: Tiger Tamer Originally by: Imperil But when you have to fitt a webifier and/or tracking computers/enhancers to hit, what is the point in fitting them over other turrets when you can not even fitt a good/sustainable tank while having them. They are not much better then lower range turrets. Originally by: Fon Revedhort Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 15/12/2006 10:17:10 The real stupidity is that pulses outdamage beams in all their optimal range. Heavy Pulse with Scorch have more dps AND more range AND more tracking then Heavy Beams with Multifrequency (no one sane uses Gleam now. And even before Kali they were a suck) If this is true, it just screams of poor balancing and/or role of the different turrets. Comparing T2 ammo to T1 isn't totally fair Considering tracking and such, isnt Heavy Pulse with Scorch better then Heavy Beam with Gleam? Fair enough. But if you want to go that way... the T2 ammos are designed to be unique in their uses and not necessarily stronger than eachother. It's not like comparing T1 ammo which scales better (raw damage-wise, not damage types of course) from short to long range and has no penalties. If a short range gun can get a better damage within a short range of distance, it's probably justified by the much longer potential range of the long-range weapon. Also T2 ammo isn't meant to be used all of the time, hence the penalties. And some hold the value of some penalties up much higher than others. If there's any problem with the balance between two weapon systems, it shouldn't be changed based on the damage of different T2 ammos. As the way I see it, the ammo itself is the problem if anything.
Imperil Northern Intelligence SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.15 16:47:00 - [25] I would'nt say that T2 ammo is the problem, just tracking in general. The current tracking mechanism has been in since Castor, and I believe that with the advancement of the game, an adjustment to tracking mechanism is necassary. Support POS Overhaul - Read it NOW!
Fon Revedhort Alaska-McMillens	Posted - 2006.12.15 17:18:00 - [26] Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 15/12/2006 17:21:49 Originally by: Tiger Tamer Comparing T2 ammo to T1 isn't totally fair I'm not trying to compare t1 ammo to t2. I'm comparing Beams at their shortest range with Pulses at their longest. Evidently, that is not my fault that pulses got a crystal they needed GREATLY - to boost their range even further - while beams got sucky Gleam for a stupid gank. Do beams really need this kind of ammo? I doubt. On the other hand, a crystal for beams which boosts tracking instead of ruining it is of a high demand. Please, let it be as cool as scorch is - more DPS and more tracking (may be at the expense of some range) than multifrequency.

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