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A question about Minmatar ships and their use.

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Ed Gein Lazy Town	Posted - 2006.12.14 19:59:00 - [1] Being a dedicated Minmatar pilot, and done nothing but pvp for the last 2+ years, I could write a book, but I will keep it brief. Are Minmatar ships shield tankers, or armor tankers? After the character creation rewrite in Revelations, new Minmatar characters start with shield tanking skills, and no armor tanking abilities. Okay that makes sense on paper. Almost all Minmatar ships have more shields than armor (including the Typhoon). This would indicate that the Devs think we should shield tank Minmatar ships, and use the excess lows for damage mods, tracking enchancers, damage control, and nanofibers I guess(?) for speed. Minmatar ships don't have the midslots that Caldari have, but normally have a low sig radius and are quick. This would indicate that Minmatar don't have nearly as a hardcore tank of most ships, but can use their speed to negate some damage. Again, all that looks great in theory. Now, lets take a look at reality. Revelations brought about more cap and HP encouraging much harder tanking. It is now common place to see dedicated nos ships that have multiple heavy nos. Nearly every ship, including BS's have webbers fitted, and lastly, my personal favorite, missile ships can't miss (but still do great damage). What it boils down too, is speed is not a viable option for avoiding damage. It is incredibly easy to counter it with all of the above. This leaves us with a weak tank (if you shield tank the way the Devs seem to want us too). Surely there is some way to counter this correct? Well, lets start with nos. According to Tuxford, fitting cap rechargers and cap relays will work . I guess if you want to feed their nos more cap, go ahead. Injectors aren't bad. If you time them correctly so you make sure your using the cap and not giving it to their nos. The problem is with the midslots on Minmatar ships. There is no way you can get an AB, injector, warp disruptor and only leave two slots for tanking on a Tempest for example. It simply won't tank well at all. This setup also doesn't include a webber which will leave you vulnerable to HACS. Well what about webbers? I guess you can stay out of range, but that isn't going to work for Minmatar cruisers since their AC range is ~10km. Minmatar BS's have good AC range, but blaster boats still aren't going to have any trouble MWD'ing at them to web them, which is pretty much game over. As it stands now, armor tanking is more practical in nearly every situation. I have won countless more fights with my dual repping Tempest than any other ship I have ever flown. This also leaves midslots for things like tracking disruptors (more stuff the Minmatar supposedly never liked to use on their ships). In closing, either CCP needs to change the Minmatar lore about how they shield tank, change new character skills, and adjust Minmatar ships so they have more armor thank shields. My question is whether or not the Devs and other players feel the Minmatar are flown the way they were intended, and is shield tanking them practical since cramming damage mods in does't work as well post Revelations. --------------------------------------------------------------------- What do you call the person that brings a gun to a knife fight? The Winner.
Taizu Lilith Minmatar Counterglow Kancho Unlimited	Posted - 2006.12.14 20:09:00 - [2] I have always thought that most Minmatar Ships were Armor tanks. Obvious exceptions being: Jaguar Vagabond (have not piloted) Cyclone (my main squeeze) Maelstrom Bellicose (possibly) Tempest (occasionally, I have not piloted) Compared to the other good ships: Typhoon Rupture Rifter Wolf etc. And the fact that a lot of people armor tank the 'shield' ships, we see that Minmatar primarily armor tanks. The reasons for this is that PvP modules are all medium slot modules: Scramblers Webbers MWD EW Modules And if you are going fast, and have projectiles, you have to use tracking computers and webs also. So that means more Med slots used.
Taizu Lilith Minmatar Counterglow Kancho Unlimited	Posted - 2006.12.14 20:12:00 - [3] Edited by: Taizu Lilith on 14/12/2006 20:12:23 It's obvious to me that they wish to ballance the two main sides: Minmatar/Gallente: Drones (Gallente) Missiles (Minmatar) Armor (Gallente) Shield (Minmatar) Sniper (Minmatar) Damage (Gallente) .... Caldari/Amarr Drones (Amarr) Missiles (Caldari) Armor (Amarr) Shield (Caldari) Sniper (should be Amarr, but they just introduced the Rohk????) Damage (should be Amarr, but hasn't been for a year) ....
Twin blade Minmatar The Caldari Confederation	Posted - 2006.12.14 20:13:00 - [4] Edited by: Twin blade on 14/12/2006 20:15:08 Its best to stay away form trying to fix minny ships no mattor what you do the other 3 race's will whine like mad. And we armor tank no good minny ship shield tank's. Note vagabond don't shield tank it just boost's HP in case its speed tank don't work. !
Caol The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.14 20:15:00 - [5] As someone else said, Quote: "...some people apparently target Minmatar ships and engage their salavage modules." And, yet another person said Quote: "...some people apparently target Minmatar ships and engage their slavage modules."
Ed Gein Lazy Town	Posted - 2006.12.14 20:46:00 - [6] lol, sad but true, my friends make fun of my minmatar "trash" as they put it, all the time. --------------------------------------------------------------------- What do you call the person that brings a gun to a knife fight? The Winner.
Diana Merris Minmatar	Posted - 2006.12.14 21:13:00 - [7] The original concept for Minmatar was that they were fast damage dealers with light shield tanks. The low slots where there for fitting and damage mods. I say fitting mods because originally no Minmatar ship had the grid to fit artillery without several fitting mods. After several rounds of balance updates some ships can now and that means they have the grid to armor tank now too. So thats what everyone does since you can't put a shield tank on anything but the Tempest and battlecruisers (Bellicose mid slots are for Target painters now, it used to be 5/3/4). Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2006.12.14 21:17:00 - [8] None of the Matar ships make a good active shield tank. Even the ones with the bonus.
mechtech	Posted - 2006.12.14 21:40:00 - [9] Nos and injectors need to be 1/2 as powerful as they are now. If you want to quickly drain cap, fit an energy destabilizer, they aren't getting enough use on typical setups. I agree they should split armor/shield skills on character creation, we use both.
Nicocat Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2006.12.14 21:40:00 - [10] Originally by: Serapis Aote None of the Matar ships make a good active shield tank. Even the ones with the bonus. I've had a lot of success with my Cyclone's active tank. ;) ---------------------------- Originally by: Splagada SEED ME DADDY WTB: Friggin' portrait
Benco97 Gallente Multiverse Corporation	Posted - 2006.12.14 21:59:00 - [11] As I stated in a thread I made which was rapidly eaten into the depths of the forum: Tank style balance: Amarr - Armour Gallente - Armour Caldari - Shield Minmatar - Armour + shield (70/30) This means : Armour - 2.7 Shield - 1.3 Total : Unfair, too many ships that armour tank. I don't care about the POWER of the tank I just think that for Amarr/Caldari and Gallente/minmatar there should be ONE armour race and ONE Shield race. The way it is the entire game is balanced towards making us fit armour tanks. I'm not talking "Which is the best" or any of that rubbish here i'm just saying, according to numbers, we are forced to armour tank. "MY GOD KEEP THIS AWAY FROM BENCO97!!!!!" - Constantine Arcanum
Mikal Drey	Posted - 2006.12.14 22:59:00 - [12] hey hey I generally shield tank all MY matari ships. Not alot of success in PvP if i was honest but matari ships seem to be perfect for PvE. when im out PvP'ng i tend not to use web/scram etc and yes due to the shield/mid slot debate but i find that our role is to be the damage dealer. in a small gang let the tacklers do their job and stand back and spank projectile pain; although overshadowed by rail/blasters (imo) i think that a huginn/Lachesis would be an ebil combination in a small gang :)
Anarkia Evangel Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2006.12.14 23:08:00 - [13] The Devs/CCP want Minmatar ships to shield tankers (and by the looks they are pushing for this), but most Minmatar ships armor tank because of slot lay outs, importance of mid slots. What annoys me is that we have the least hp of all ships, class for class tier for tier. Take the Typhoon, an armor tanking ship with more shield hp than armor and the least armor in its class (equal to scorpion but the scorpion isnÆt an armor tanker). Then thereÆs the Tempest again more shield hp and less armor and vs. other BS of the same tier and has the least hp. (Raven more shields, Mega more armor) But the Temp with its slot lay out can do both pretty well, but not as good as the other 2. Then thereÆs the Maelstrom, the lay out of a shield tanking ship and bonus to suit, and the way the hp works it fits well, but still has the least hp of the other tier 3s, shield/armor/hull, Rokh/Abaddon, Hyperion/Rokh, Abaddon, Hyperion. Is it because we are ment to do more damage? Alpha shrike wise? Hmmm maybe, but that doesnÆt make up for the hp differences. How about dps wise? Ha. IÆm not really sure what the answer to this is, or that the Dev even what to do some thing about it. I think it would help if the shield and amour hp to be equal on all Minmatar ships, not an increase, but to be leveled out. Excluding hull that it.
Ed Gein Lazy Town	Posted - 2006.12.14 23:32:00 - [14] What it really comes down too it seems is "light" tanks just don't cut it now, especially after Revelations. It wouldn't be so bad if there were more ways to avoid getting webbed, or nos'ed out so you could still run an AB. --------------------------------------------------------------------- What do you call the person that brings a gun to a knife fight? The Winner.
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2006.12.15 02:33:00 - [15] true that... all those nifty items for any offensive warfare besides boomsticks just have to go in those med slots. i don't mind the slot layout for minnie ships; it leaves options, rendering the ships unpredictable (in some cases). heck, even dual tanks are possible if one wants to go all-out. i don't mind the stock shields/armour relations either. as soon as someone specializes on one kind, differences in stock values get reaaally tiny anyway. it is indeed the evil webs that remove one minnie characteristic by up to 90% - and it can still be stacked to ridiculous values! leaves us with the other speciality: signature.... yeah right... if guns worked 100% like the guide says they do, it might still be ok, but currently, the plain signature resolution vs ~radius results are borked... =( and missiles have that guided missle precision to ensure maximum damage on the proper targets. for anything lower, stacked painters do the trick all too well... =( the only thing left is the effect of getting locked more slowly... so yes, speed and especially signature could be a little more worthwhile (and less borked in case of the latter) by coding their remedies a lot less powerful. p.s. i don't see the point of a minnie titan either even though in rust we trust
Tobizuru Minmatar Cosmic Odyssey Chorus of Dawn	Posted - 2006.12.15 02:49:00 - [16] The Tempest makes good toast too you know... -------------------- If I only had a Face... :'(
Phelan Lore Sniggerdly	Posted - 2006.12.15 04:42:00 - [17] Originally by: Ed Gein Are Minmatar ships shield tankers, or armor tankers? Who cares? The genious of minmatar is that you can do whatever you want. Shield, armor, HP buffer, speed tank... Sniggwaffe is recruiting
Exiled One Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.12.15 04:46:00 - [18] Edited by: Exiled One on 15/12/2006 04:46:35 Quit yer whinning and train amarr, and be a pure armour tanker. It's great being Amarr, aint it?
T'Renn Vale Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.12.15 05:20:00 - [19] Originally by: Twin blade And we armor tank no good minny ship shield tank's. Hello. I am the Jaguar, and this is my big friend the Cyclone.
Shiraz Merlot Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.15 05:20:00 - [20] You're a jack of all trades. The point of Minmatar is to be the best skirmish race - the guerilla freedom-fighter backstory tells you that. It is supposed to be a "speed tank". All the best skirmish boats are Minmatar - Vagabond, Stiletto, Hurrican, Rifter, Jaguar, Nanophoon, AC 'pest. Boost a gang with a Claymore and it's got a colossal advantage - 'ceptors do >10km/sec and scramble from much longer range, and the sigradius reduction is a better tank than all the resists you can eat. If you see a Claymore opposite you, I suggest you call it primary.
Ed Gein Lazy Town	Posted - 2006.12.15 07:38:00 - [21] Originally by: Shiraz Merlot You're a jack of all trades. The point of Minmatar is to be the best skirmish race - the guerilla freedom-fighter backstory tells you that. It is supposed to be a "speed tank". All the best skirmish boats are Minmatar - Vagabond, Stiletto, Hurrican, Rifter, Jaguar, Nanophoon, AC 'pest. Boost a gang with a Claymore and it's got a colossal advantage - 'ceptors do >10km/sec and scramble from much longer range, and the sigradius reduction is a better tank than all the resists you can eat. If you see a Claymore opposite you, I suggest you call it primary. Yeah, what you said is sort of my point . It is a SPEED tank, except when you get webbed and its worthless. It is a jack of all trades, so I end up with 26 million skillpoints and still have a few months training left before I feel like I am using the Typhoon to the best of its ability. Its a love hate relationship that I have accepted. --------------------------------------------------------------------- What do you call the person that brings a gun to a knife fight? The Winner.
MOS DEF 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.12.15 07:43:00 - [22] I love the speed buffer tank approach. Minnies don't get the best shield tank and sure wont get the best armor tank. Minmatar ships are unique and i love them for it. If cought they die easy but if the pilot is on his toes they are awesome ships.
Ed Gein Lazy Town	Posted - 2006.12.15 08:14:00 - [23] Originally by: MOS DEF I love the speed buffer tank approach. Minnies don't get the best shield tank and sure wont get the best armor tank. Minmatar ships are unique and i love them for it. If cought they die easy but if the pilot is on his toes they are awesome ships. Yeah, I agree with you here, its a great approach, and forces the pilot to stay on their toes. My problem is battleships are too slugish to make split second flight changes to avoid webbing, and the smaller ships don't have enough AC range to avoid webbing. --------------------------------------------------------------------- What do you call the person that brings a gun to a knife fight? The Winner.
Auron Shadowbane	Posted - 2006.12.15 08:36:00 - [24] medium AC can stay out of web range and still hit. not on plain paper but you can get an additional 25% falloff with skills. there are also rigs to increase fallof and last but not least t2 ammo. after all web is still too powerfull. especially on small ships vs big ships. a bs might be able to stay outa web range of another bs but not away from a ceptor. solution: make different classes of webs that work like reverse ab/mwd. the decrease your speed based on a trust variable. base value shold be 50% reduction to the right target. 55-60% for t2. you might still get the 90% (or more) if you catch a frig in a bs web.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2006.12.15 09:47:00 - [25] Yes the main issue with matar right now is.. webs ar wayyy over powered. Make webs increaase target ship weight and the problem will be heavily diminished. Also a single web should not reduce more than 50% speed... they are WAY OVERPOWERED... Make short range high capacity webs(50-75%-7km.. and long range low capacity webs (form 35-50%-15km) If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!!
Kagura Nikon Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2006.12.15 10:01:00 - [26] Forgot to add.. anothr possible solution to the seed tank issue is a module to improve falloff (like the giro, but for falloff). That would solve completely the problem of web being overpowered. If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!!
Kitana Bane	Posted - 2006.12.15 10:20:00 - [27] Originally by: Auron Shadowbane solution: make different classes of webs that work like reverse ab/mwd. the decrease your speed based on a trust variable. base value shold be 50% reduction to the right target. 55-60% for t2. you might still get the 90% (or more) if you catch a frig in a bs web. Nah. Bad idea. If you do that then if you come across a bigger class ship you can just pop your own frig. Frigs dont have damage, dont have armour (or hit points) all they have is speed.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2006.12.15 15:46:00 - [28] Originally by: Kitana Bane Originally by: Auron Shadowbane solution: make different classes of webs that work like reverse ab/mwd. the decrease your speed based on a trust variable. base value shold be 50% reduction to the right target. 55-60% for t2. you might still get the 90% (or more) if you catch a frig in a bs web. Nah. Bad idea. If you do that then if you come across a bigger class ship you can just pop your own frig. Frigs dont have damage, dont have armour (or hit points) all they have is speed. that disapears when you are webbed. So webs are the evil curse of eve... If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!!
Sharupak	Posted - 2006.12.15 16:03:00 - [29] Originally by: Ed Gein Being a dedicated Minmatar pilot, and done nothing but pvp for the last 2+ years, I could write a book, but I will keep it brief. Are Minmatar ships shield tankers, or armor tankers? After the character creation rewrite in Revelations, new Minmatar characters start with shield tanking skills, and no armor tanking abilities. Okay that makes sense on paper. Almost all Minmatar ships have more shields than armor (including the Typhoon). This would indicate that the Devs think we should shield tank Minmatar ships, and use the excess lows for damage mods, tracking enchancers, damage control, and nanofibers I guess(?) for speed. Minmatar ships don't have the midslots that Caldari have, but normally have a low sig radius and are quick. This would indicate that Minmatar don't have nearly as a hardcore tank of most ships, but can use their speed to negate some damage. Again, all that looks great in theory. Now, lets take a look at reality. Revelations brought about more cap and HP encouraging much harder tanking. It is now common place to see dedicated nos ships that have multiple heavy nos. Nearly every ship, including BS's have webbers fitted, and lastly, my personal favorite, missile ships can't miss (but still do great damage). What it boils down too, is speed is not a viable option for avoiding damage. It is incredibly easy to counter it with all of the above. This leaves us with a weak tank (if you shield tank the way the Devs seem to want us too). Surely there is some way to counter this correct? Well, lets start with nos. According to Tuxford, fitting cap rechargers and cap relays will work . I guess if you want to feed their nos more cap, go ahead. Injectors aren't bad. If you time them correctly so you make sure your using the cap and not giving it to their nos. The problem is with the midslots on Minmatar ships. There is no way you can get an AB, injector, warp disruptor and only leave two slots for tanking on a Tempest for example. It simply won't tank well at all. This setup also doesn't include a webber which will leave you vulnerable to HACS. Well what about webbers? I guess you can stay out of range, but that isn't going to work for Minmatar cruisers since their AC range is ~10km. Minmatar BS's have good AC range, but blaster boats still aren't going to have any trouble MWD'ing at them to web them, which is pretty much game over. As it stands now, armor tanking is more practical in nearly every situation. I have won countless more fights with my dual repping Tempest than any other ship I have ever flown. This also leaves midslots for things like tracking disruptors (more stuff the Minmatar supposedly never liked to use on their ships). In closing, either CCP needs to change the Minmatar lore about how they shield tank, change new character skills, and adjust Minmatar ships so they have more armor thank shields. My question is whether or not the Devs and other players feel the Minmatar are flown the way they were intended, and is shield tanking them practical since cramming damage mods in does't work as well post Revelations. With the exception of those Stabber flyboys (and girls) with their insane frigate speed that are basically on top of you before you know it with ACs graffitii tagging thier name in your armor with a hail of gun fire! I actually think several mimitar ships should be rebalanced this way. Stabbers are also usually shield tankers as well.
Twin blade Minmatar The Caldari Confederation	Posted - 2006.12.15 16:21:00 - [30] Edited by: Twin blade on 15/12/2006 16:22:27 Originally by: T'Renn Originally by: Twin blade And we armor tank no good minny ship shield tank's. Hello. I am the Jaguar, and this is my big friend the Cyclone. I said Good ship's Wolf is better than Jag and the cyclone is a massive load of crap. We don't speed tank due to the tiny fact only like 4 of our ships can reach a speed that can be classed as a speed tank. !

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