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Old Winter
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Posted - 2003.11.24 11:16:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Old Winter on 24/11/2003 11:28:23
Okay seems the term exploit is floating about a bit, along with griefer etc.
All I now need to know is when and how do I know an exploit is being used against me.
It is rather tricky for a noob like me to make a distinction.
When I jump through a gate and get caught by a welcoming committee to the point I don't get to see my ship load into space before I am waking up a clone turns out not to be an exploit.
Some chap scanning me from another part of the belt and then firing on me is?
Worrying if it is the case, can a PvP chap file a petition against me if I scan a belt see his ship there in another grid and get out of there fast. Does that mean I have used an exploit to escape his mischief. Can I counter petition, do I need a lawyer at this point, to argue my case.
It seems a bit confusing to me, however as I am sure the people at CCP are working very hard to ensure it is not possible to continue using exploits rather than just telling people off for using them I suppose it will be a moot point in the end.
An exploit is something they expect to be able to fix, but it is not an exploit when they cannot fix it.
Possibly a rather poor way of defining what is right and wrong as it will lead to confusion and inconsistency in rule making.
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There are no bugs just locked threads |
Sheriff Jones
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Posted - 2003.11.24 11:29:00 -
[2]
Well i like dying as muhc as the other guy, very little, but when i do i never "grief" about it.
Sure, i'll shout outloud and stomp my foot for a moment, but then i'll just huf, puf and start again. It doesn't matter if somoone is hiding inside a roid, shooting me down in amarr space from a titan in gallente space or if someone just pressed instakill button. I die, i start again.
Just forget there's cheats and it's a bit brighter out there. Rosecolored glasses? Nah, just a healthy dose of "can't do shiet". 
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Old Winter
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Posted - 2003.11.24 11:36:00 -
[3]
I am not complaining about the dying aspect, I am really complaining about the rather random way things are termed exploits.
It seems things are termed exploits if they can be fixed in code and if they cannot then well, they are okay to do.
From a sneaky/skill level the use of a scanner is much more ingenious and amusing than gate camping.
For one thing lying in wait for a person to travel to say one of 20 belts takes a bit more effort than sitting at a gate where you know people are going in and out.
If we had a vote I think it is pretty obvious which of the two game tactics would be frowned upon the most and people wanting it changed.
It is the one that is most difficult to sort out with code, the one that is not an exploit.
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There are no bugs just locked threads |
Omniwar
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Posted - 2003.11.24 11:47:00 -
[4]
If you suspect an exploit being used on you then send in an exploit petition and write in as much info as you can.
If the other pilot/pilots are exploiting for their own gain they will recive a warning or be banned on the spot.
If you see anything abnormal then send in petition as that will result in a better game in the end.
Spawn of the Devil
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Zodiac Laserstorm
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Posted - 2003.11.24 11:50:00 -
[5]
I fear most of the time you can't really tell  Unless you know all the exploits (use them yourself or something). If I die, I guess it's more likely I die to lag, a crash or some game bug that was not triggered by a player.
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darth solo
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Posted - 2003.11.24 12:02:00 -
[6]
a while back i had Tank CEO on a a 1V1 fight.
I locked him down and, KABOOM, CTD.
After a while of constant bugs in ma game play, id like to say sry for saying that he could have cheated .
the game is totally bugged, lets face it. deal with it or move on.
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Gunni
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Posted - 2003.11.24 12:07:00 -
[7]
 Quote:
Some chap scanning me from another part of the belt and then firing on me is?
Worrying if it is the case, can a PvP chap file a petition against me if I scan a belt see his ship there in another grid and get out of there fast. Does that mean I have used an exploit to escape his mischief.
the grid exploit is if u attack some1 that isnt in the same grid as u... u can be in the grid next to him and c him on the scanner, but thats not an exploit... if it was the scanner would allways be considerd an exploit since u can c ppl many grids away from u...
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Gunni
Viziam
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Sheriff Jones
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Posted - 2003.11.24 12:12:00 -
[8]
Quote:
If I die, I guess it's more likely I die to lag, a crash or some game bug that was not triggered by a player.
Heh, noticed you left out "the other player being better then me" from the list 
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Old Winter
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Posted - 2003.11.24 12:32:00 -
[9]
Thanks for all the clarification people, it has been useful.
However the intention of my post is to point out the absurdity of the current system which defines what is or is not an exploit.
Personally I am pretty much for a free-for-all and let CCP close the exploits within the game code itself, not start telling people off for playing the game as they are allowed to because of the code they implemented.
Obviously using 3rd party programmes or hacking code is not on, but allowing CCP just to define things as exploits because the code is stuffed is not on (and they are only defining things as exploits if they think it can be fixed, JIP camping is not an exploit because they can do nothing about it).
Treading a bit of a fine line aren't we now on the scanner/grid exploit.
Scanning and seeing objects is not an exploit, scanning and acting on the results is, if that action is an aggressive act towards another player but not if it is to find other roids within a large belt.
You know the roids where you can mine away peacefully without fear of attack from rats, or be seen by other people within the system.
So there I am happily immune from all effective attack in this 'hidden' roid belt (no exploit there clearly  .
PvP player turns up, out comes the scanner. He is in normal space, I am in the 'hidden' grid.
He spies my activity (clearly I am not exploiting anything here, hidden away from everything within the game, mining without fear of trouble) and decides to put an end to my mining activity and fires on me.
Is he now using an exploit?
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There are no bugs just locked threads |
DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2003.11.24 13:51:00 -
[10]
Quote:
If you suspect an exploit being used on you then send in an exploit petition and write in as much info as you can.
If the other pilot/pilots are exploiting for their own gain they will recive a warning or be banned on the spot.
If you see anything abnormal then send in petition as that will result in a better game in the end.
CCP cannot log most parts of the game, so basicly its: HORAAAAY PLOITERS! DOWWWWWN WHINING CAREBEARS!
CCP only cares if you have logserver running or screenshots.
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
Omniwar
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Posted - 2003.11.24 14:02:00 -
[11]
Quote:
Quote:
If you suspect an exploit being used on you then send in an exploit petition and write in as much info as you can.
If the other pilot/pilots are exploiting for their own gain they will recive a warning or be banned on the spot.
If you see anything abnormal then send in petition as that will result in a better game in the end.
CCP cannot log most parts of the game, so basicly its: HORAAAAY PLOITERS! DOWWWWWN WHINING CAREBEARS!
CCP only cares if you have logserver running or screenshots.
This is not true DREAMWORKS, 5 pilots sent in a petition saying I used an exploit and I was threatend with a ban, but the funny thing is, everyone and you included use the same feature.
So CCP does indeed cave in from pressure to please the mass and doesnt even think about what they are actually doing.
Spawn of the Devil
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Vegeta
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Posted - 2003.11.24 14:13:00 -
[12]
Quote:
How do I know if someone is using an exploit against me?
You dont, thats the fun of it!
2005.04.25 16:40:42 combat Your 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II perfectly strikes LawrenceNewton [WARAG], wrecking for 2706.9 damage.
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Omniwar
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Posted - 2003.11.24 14:14:00 -
[13]
Quote:
Quote:
How do I know if someone is using an exploit against me?
You dont, thats the fun of it!
 But it¦s true
Spawn of the Devil
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semp
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Posted - 2003.11.24 14:33:00 -
[14]
Vegeta.
"Thats the fun of it"?
Lets not forget Mr Moo that because of you fools, CCP were delayed from actually delivering content in the game while they dealt with you guys. You took advantage of every bug/exploit/load out stack exploit you could and using this info to kill as many players as possiable with the 'safe' areas of Empire space and as a result loads of people left the game early.......and this is your idea of fun is it?
Fun is when i find your sorry butt undocked for a change in 0.0 space......then belive me we WILL have some fun.
Semp
Cow Killa
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Omniwar
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Posted - 2003.11.24 15:13:00 -
[15]
Quote:
Vegeta.
"Thats the fun of it"?
Lets not forget Mr Moo that because of you fools, CCP were delayed from actually delivering content in the game while they dealt with you guys. You took advantage of every bug/exploit/load out stack exploit you could and using this info to kill as many players as possiable with the 'safe' areas of Empire space and as a result loads of people left the game early.......and this is your idea of fun is it?
Fun is when i find your sorry butt undocked for a change in 0.0 space......then belive me we WILL have some fun.
Semp
Cow Killa
Sorry to burst your bubble pal, but Vegeta was not in m0o corp when they were supposed to have exploited.
And btw, do you know for a fact they exploited or are you just repeating like a parrot what others have told you?
To accuse peaple of exploiting when they dont is almost as bad.
Spawn of the Devil
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semp
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Posted - 2003.11.24 16:03:00 -
[16]
Edited by: semp on 24/11/2003 16:28:23
What i posted were points of FACT, dispute them if you will, but i for one was there in the early days.....once they couldn't set lag traps with hundreds of cans or couldnt stack mods which gave them insane damage mods....they decided to pick up there ball and go home....because they couldnt be the Uber Cool Dudes they once were.......we the players rejoiced at this news.....and they they post that there back and expect us all to sit up and take notice......well we have, but not for the reasons they might have been hoping for.
As for you Mr Carebear Weed dude, well I guess you only aspire to reach the dizzy cool dude hights of the original m0o corp, I wouldnt advise it. You might make too many friends.
Semp
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Negotiator
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Posted - 2003.11.24 16:07:00 -
[17]
lol..stacking damage mods is an exploit? and surgical strike is an exploit too? ur a tool
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semp
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Posted - 2003.11.24 16:32:00 -
[18]
Stacking damage mods is NOT an exploit now, but back in the bad old days of early release it was possiable to set up you ship so the amount of damage it could kick out was INSANE !!!
Of course if you had been there and actually seen the carnage that these guys caused then you might have actually understood what I had posted. O well.
Semp
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Old Winter
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Posted - 2003.11.24 16:33:00 -
[19]
Exactly, I say nuts to this, "is this an exploit issue" if the game mechanics allow it, get on with it.
If CCP think its an exploit then best they tighten the code up to stop it happening.
Telling people off and threatening to ban them because they found code in the game that allows this sort of thing is not really on.
Lets not blame those that find these things, lets start asking why the exploit code is not sorted out, to stop it happening at all.
Ban people for using 3rd party programmes or hacking code.
Give them free weeks if they find weaknesses in the code which need sorting out. These people are doing CCP a favor.
As it stands there are any number of rules and exceptions to the rules when it comes to exploits which clearly have no logical structure, it looks like it is being made up as it goes along and people do not know what is right and what is wrong.
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There are no bugs just locked threads |
Omniwar
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Posted - 2003.11.24 16:45:00 -
[20]
Quote:
Stacking damage mods is NOT an exploit now, but back in the bad old days of early release it was possiable to set up you ship so the amount of damage it could kick out was INSANE !!!
Of course if you had been there and actually seen the carnage that these guys caused then you might have actually understood what I had posted. O well.
Semp
It was not just stacking modules that made them do huge dmg, it was stacking skills, if you would have trained more than industrial skills and trained more weapon skills you would have done the same dmg.
As for the can "exploit" it could have been cans dropped by NPC at gates ?
You did know that NPC do spawn at gates dont you, we even still get exploit petitions sent to the GM¦s when camping gates and there are more than 10 cans from NPC there.
We shoot the NPC, they drop loot, the loot is in cans, we dont take the loot, so we are exploiters, isnt that what you are saying ?
Although I have no first hand info if they did drop cans then selfs to create lag I am pretty sure you have no idea your self, so everything you say is hearsay from other who knew nothing them selfs.
Peaple who exploit get banned, yet they are still here, so they couldnt have used any exploit couldnt they ?
Spawn of the Devil
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Rohann
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Posted - 2003.11.24 17:09:00 -
[21]
Quote:
What i posted were points of FACT, dispute them if you will, but i for one was there in the early days.....once they couldn't set lag traps with hundreds of cans or couldnt stack mods which gave them insane damage mods....they decided to pick up there ball and go home....because they couldnt be the Uber Cool Dudes they once were.......we the players rejoiced at this news.....and they they post that there back and expect us all to sit up and take notice......well we have, but not for the reasons they might have been hoping for.
As for you Mr Carebear Weed dude, well I guess you only aspire to reach the dizzy cool dude hights of the original m0o corp, I wouldnt advise it. You might make too many friends.
Semp
Dood your a Tool.....
I was there when m0o was going around ganking ppl left and right in cruisers. what they were using were heavy modulated beams with stamped heat sinks and I believe but cannot confirm the surgical strike skill. They tore into my cruiser and left me in an egg in seconds. 3 of them took out a fleet of 12 cruisers. Some blew up others fled.
Was it an exploit? NO!
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Stoop
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Posted - 2003.11.24 20:43:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Stoop on 24/11/2003 20:43:51
The can exploit was not about just having cans there and lagging people. You could drop cans over and over while someone warped in and lag the crap out of them. Thus we can only drop cans every.. what.. 3 minutes? Something like that.
They also did some pretty dirty stuff like spamming local channel and spamming people with convo invites.
Edit: Oh and Omniwar is right about filling out a petition. Its the only way to go. Sadly you can't type very much in those small ass boxes. They need to make them bigger.
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McWatt
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Posted - 2003.11.24 21:09:00 -
[23]
i ve decided some while ago that an exploit ends being one if enough time passes without ccp fixing it. (currently the CTD by damps is one of these)
boy did i get flamed for this idea!
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Vegeta
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Posted - 2003.11.25 12:33:00 -
[24]
I think you all misunderstood what was SUPPOSED TO BE A JOKE
2005.04.25 16:40:42 combat Your 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II perfectly strikes LawrenceNewton [WARAG], wrecking for 2706.9 damage.
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Old Winter
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Posted - 2003.11.25 13:31:00 -
[25]
The whole exploit thing is a mess.
For it to be an exploit, it first has to be defined as one, this is simple enough.
However what constitutes an exploit is rather tricky to pin down (see above, cans around a gate cannot be considered one, because they are rat loot cans etc, but then again they might well be if those cans are not rat loot, who knows)
Sensor clashes causing CTD are not an exploit, CCP banned them from the Amarr championship but does nothing about the issue in game it seems.
The fact threads discussing such things also seem to be against the rules of the forum as is the reporting of bugs (bad publicity on a public forum maybe?)
So once you have got your head around the idea of what is and what is not an exploit you then have to know if one is being used against you.
Having discovered one has been you then have to file a petition.
Without clear rules goodness knows how many petitions are filed and thrown out, must be quite some workload.
Honestly why cannot we do away with all this and really tighten the definition of an exploit down.
An exploit could be anyone using a 3rd party programme, macros, or hacking game code. Ban those people.
Anything that the game code allows should not be defined an exploit but if the issue causes game imbalance then the code should be altered accordingly.
Alternatively lets really go to town on this issue and consider 'exploiters' to be society law breakers and have courts of law to determine what fines etc can be imposed upon them in terms of isk, skill points whatever.
There are no easy answers but there are better answers to this problem than the one we currently have surely.
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There are no bugs just locked threads |
Zodiac Laserstorm
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Posted - 2003.11.25 14:26:00 -
[26]
Quote:
Quote:
If I die, I guess it's more likely I die to lag, a crash or some game bug that was not triggered by a player.
Heh, noticed you left out "the other player being better then me" from the list
Of course, THAT is a given fact anyhow. 
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Darth Vodka
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Posted - 2003.11.28 08:11:00 -
[27]
i dunno how many ppl have been banned from Eve, i know the figures are private and won't get discussed on the forums.
well blizzard are getting very tough on cheaters
nearly 400,000 accounts across Starcraft, Diablo II, Warcraft III have been axed.
14,000 cd keys banned from ladder play for one month.
Another 2,000 Warcraft III accounts banned for life
Source - Pc Gamer - Dec 2003
See, across the board it's always going to be a problem |
Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2003.11.28 09:35:00 -
[28]
Quote:
Sorry to burst your bubble pal, but Vegeta was not in m0o corp when they were supposed to have exploited.
No-one cares, members of M0o, past, present and future will be tainted by the legacy.
Convert Stations
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Tyrrax Thorrk
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Posted - 2003.11.28 11:04:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Tyrrax Thorrk on 28/11/2003 11:11:54
Actually m0o was using 650 mm projectile thingies
Oh and the exploit with cans thing.. one of them did it like once.... And it didn't even really work.. People on the forums just kept blabbing the words "can exploit" until their heads exploded and people started believing in it simply because it was talked about so much...
m0o were simply better Eve players, and they used their power for Evil.  CCP didn't like the fact that they closed Mara/Passari, responded in typical stupid CCP fashion, then a stupid GM made matters worse by teleporting everybody in m0o across the galaxy (in response to petitions) thus escalating further m0o's fame,
Err anyway end rant. |
Tar om
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Posted - 2003.11.28 12:25:00 -
[30]
There are some interesting definitions of exploit being floated here. Here's my take, if anyone is interested.
Exploit = Deliberately using a bug in the game code to gain an ingame advantage.
Deliberately - the player must know that the bug is present and that they are using it. This is very hard to prove, but an adequate system of recorded warnings will ensure that players are not banned unfairly (and that GMs will not be inhibited from banning by claims of ignorance)
Bug - there are many definitions possible. I would include any game behaviour that runs contrary to the run of pay or weakens the feeling of immersion in the game. CCP should work to fix all bug, and even if they say "sorry, we can't fix that" then deliberately using the bug for advantage would remain exploiting.
Tar-Om
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
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