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Dante Chusuk
Golden Aardvark Society
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Posted - 2006.12.18 16:30:00 -
[1]
I'm not upgrading to Vista any time soon but I am yet to see the question asked. Microsoft are apparently removing DirectSound 3D Hardware support from Direct X with the launch of Windows Vista. I am guessing this will affect all users of Vista whether they are using DirectX 10 or 9L (though I am guessing this difference is only graphics card related from other posts on the subject).
Will the DX10 client be using OpenAL for support of hardware "accelerated" sound? Falling back to Generic Software should someone be using a non-OpenAL soundcard (generally onboard).
Just curious being primarily a mechanical engineer and liking my games with OpenAL support (and my XFi soundcard of course).
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Sevarus James
Minmatar
Meridian Dynamics
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.12.19 09:58:00 -
[2]
A good source of information on this can be found here:
OpenAL page
Updated Linux Desktop+EVE+EVE-TV |
Dante Chusuk
Golden Aardvark Society
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Posted - 2006.12.20 18:19:00 -
[3]
Thanks Sevarus, that's where I got a lot of my background information from actually. All it does is leave me wondering (at this stage for other players) whether the Vista client (and maybe even the new Eve Classic client) will use OpenAL
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Sevarus James
Minmatar
Meridian Dynamics
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.12.21 04:31:00 -
[4]
Knowing microsoft, my bet is that you'll have to add openAL on your own. With the recent Novell deal that MS did, even to the extent of acknowledging Linux as a viable alternative, I could be wrong, but I've never known them to include open source (other than openGL extensions) with their products without hiding or downplaying them considerably.
As they are touting Vista's "new hotness" my guess is that if you want openAL, you'll have to get it yourself.
I could be wrong, but history is my guide on this one.
MS has been very tightlipped on the sound side of things, so who knows?
Updated Linux Desktop+EVE+EVE-TV |
Dante Chusuk
Golden Aardvark Society
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Posted - 2006.12.21 18:04:00 -
[5]
It's more application related as I use the OpenAL selection for Prey and the like on my XFi with WinXP/DX9c and also (obviously) if the soundcard/drives support OpenAL.
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Sevarus James
Minmatar
Meridian Dynamics
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.12.26 09:10:00 -
[6]
Well after doing a bit of research, and becoming more and more horrified with each article, I finally found one that will probably choke even ardent Vista supporters. This reads almost like a horror story, even though it is purely a research paper on content protection.
A Cost Analysis of Windows Vista Content Protection
After reading this, and believe me it was more surreal the further in I delved, I'm convinced that ANYONE jumping on the Vista bandwagon has either no clue what sort of draconian setup this is, or unaware of the depths microsoft is going to lock people in to what they want irregardless of technical merit or actual need.
Hardware AND software vendors are going to pass these costs on, and this is going to hurt the consumer in a way that makes the MAC seem cheap by comparison.
And as Linux user, I too will be affected if this process continues down the primrose path, as it affects the costs of the hardware I use and will be using in the future.
To CCP, if any developers are reading this, do you have ANY clue what supporting this platform means, philosophically or technically? All for some dx10 bling?
Updated Linux Desktop+EVE+EVE-TV |
Draec Sjet
Dark Knights of Deneb
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.12.28 00:23:00 -
[7]
i had Vista RC1 and noticed instaltly when i installed it a degraded performance of my entire system, and isues playing back video, especially DVDs.
i figured this was down to the state of the version i had, which of course was unfinished and a little unstable, i never at any point considered any of this a feature?!
good god, if this is what microsoft will do i think i'll keep my laptop and xp for life.
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Dante Chusuk
Golden Aardvark Society
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Posted - 2007.01.31 17:31:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Dante Chusuk on 31/01/2007 17:31:01
Edited by: Dante Chusuk on 31/01/2007 17:28:26
Up to the top with this one as without OpenAL in the DX10 client according to the OpenAL facts page (link in a previous page) Directsound will not support (apparently) support hardware acceleration (i.e. it is another drain on the CPU).
Will Trinity DX10 Edition (or even both new versions of Trinity) be using OpenAL rather than Directsound?!
Having done some digging about and found that you can create a dual boot WinXP/Vista system (mainly as I have concerns about the DRM "quality management" features I keep hearing about, yes I have an HD enabled gfx card and monitor but I have heard reports that some license owners are specifying HDMI connection ONLY  ) and would be looking to upgrade to Vista to:
a) get the maximum out of my gfx card
b) play Eve Vista Edition
c) I heard rumours of Halo 2 PC being DX10 only ... saves me hauling my X-Brick to Lanfests
Edit: Maybe this should be in Game Development but can't see any topic about testing of the new Trinty client in there  
Edit 2: I hear some of the performance "issues" were mainly caused by logging processes in RCs to allow "reporting" while users were testing ... sure really something I wanted on my PC ... hence no RC testing for me during evaluation/pre-issue 
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dknzubzero
Minmatar
13th MEU
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Posted - 2007.01.31 18:25:00 -
[9]
I'm running Vista ultimate 64bit, and have no problems with the game (this includes sound).
Haven't installed anything other than drivers, that could affect this.
btw, Vista is born with DX10, no DX9 support :)
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Dante Chusuk
Golden Aardvark Society
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Posted - 2007.02.02 16:49:00 -
[10]
I appreciate that Vista is DX10 base and the 9L was from when RCs were still about before finalised release and that was when most of my reading was based around.
I'm not saying your sound won't work in Vista, however it will not benefit fully (if at all) from hardware acceleration compared to a Win2k/XP and DX9 environment due to the changes in DirectSound.
Also please bear in mind I don't often run Eve with sound enabled and the query about OpenAL was placed for those people that do and appreciate the current level of 3D sound within Eve.
Personally I am intending to run a dualboot system and use Vista for DX10/OpenAL stuff and XP for everything where it is non-OpenAL.
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Regat Kozovv
Caldari
GETCO
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Posted - 2007.02.02 17:48:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Regat Kozovv on 02/02/2007 17:49:10
 Originally by: Sevarus James
A Cost Analysis of Windows Vista Content Protection
I've seen this link fly around, but honestly, it sounds like alot of FUD. I lost count of how many time the word "probably" and "most likely" were used to base alot of his points.
While I am as disgusted as much as the next guy about DRM, I do not see how Vista is involved here. Microsoft included DRM support so that it would be capable of playing the formats that media studios think we'll want to buy. Sure, the amount of hoops one must jump through are ridiclous. But it's built-in support, not "will force me to watch DRM movies".
Bill Gates himself I think proposed the best advice on this issue: Hate DRM files? Buy a CD, rip it. Buy movies in only open formats. I for one a very much pleased with the new operating system, but as far as DRM goes, reject the formats, not the devices that are mearly compatable with them. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.
As for OpenAL though, I suspect it will take a dev to anwser this question. However, I will point you to the following article on the OpenAL site:
OpenAL and Windows Vista
I also recall a Creative Labs project to create an abstraction layer that would translate EAX calls into OpenGL in response to the new Vista changes. You can read about it here:
ALchemy
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Dante Chusuk
Golden Aardvark Society
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Posted - 2007.02.02 20:25:00 -
[12]
Ok ... one thing ... I have read the OpenAL article on Vista before starting the topic (it started out from playing Prey and thinking WTF is this OpenAL?!) and that's where I found the info that DirectSound is changing (for the worse in my opinion) ... so yes this is an ongoing request for a quick answer from a Dev ... I mean we seen some nice information on the graphics side of the Trinity update (be they new DX9 or for DX10 as well) and it would be nice if we could find out if they are sticking with DirectSound (and no hardware acceleration) or going OpenAL ...
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Armored
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.02.04 08:49:00 -
[13]
Vista Ultimate, no problems after grabbing new SoundBlaster Live! 24-Bit drivers.
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Max Hardcase
Art of War
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.02.04 11:48:00 -
[14]
^^
Thats NOT the problem.
The problem is that Windows will have to fallback on the CPU even if you have dedicated hardware for 3d sound since vista ONLY USES SOFTWARE FOR SOUND MIXING.
Repeat there will be NO hardware support.
Our only hope is that games are going to be written for openAL.
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Dante Chusuk
Golden Aardvark Society
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Posted - 2007.02.17 00:03:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Dante Chusuk on 17/02/2007 00:01:53
Seeing as we have a Dev Blog from Oveur which mentions the sound department being reformed can we have some form of answer on this? I'm glad someone other than me is concerned about the fact that the Hardware Acceleration Layer has basically been removed from DX10.
Heck I have to admit I play Eve with sound still simply because with hardware acceleration of my card I don't really have much of a framerate difference AND I can work out targets positions without constantly swinging the camera drone about. It's like that wierd headset pointer thing they had support for at one point (TrackIR?) but a LOT more useful.
The following statement from Oveur's blog leads me to believe they are looking at OpenAL (hopefully as an option in DX9 client and for proper HAL in DX10 client) but confirmation would be good.
Quote:
Our sound division was reformed just 3 days ago, when it got it's first staff member. Finally, we will be overhauling all sound, hopefully leading not only to you playing with sound again, but also have it perform better and possibly further utilize what's been happening in the sound arena in the last 3 years.
To repeat ... YES Vista 32-bit and 64-bit have relevant drivers for the majority of sound cards (especially Creative ones) but you will have NO hardware features enabled in non-OpenAL (i.e. DirectSound only) games, this means NO EAX and potentially NO surround sound.
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Amida Ta
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Posted - 2007.02.21 15:08:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Max Hardcase
^^
Thats NOT the problem.
The problem is that Windows will have to fallback on the CPU even if you have dedicated hardware for 3d sound since vista ONLY USES SOFTWARE FOR SOUND MIXING.
Repeat there will be NO hardware support.
Our only hope is that games are going to be written for openAL.
The point is that just about nobody cares about that. Are you aware about what we are talking about here.
Software-mixing is more flexible and only costs about 2-3% CPU on a mid-range System. On a high-end system it usually costs MUCH less than 1% CPU from a single core. Just about nobody cares about that amount of used CPU.
The only thing left is the missing EAX effects. However afaik Eve did never use any EAX anyways - so this doesn't change anything.
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Dante Chusuk
Golden Aardvark Society
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Posted - 2007.02.23 20:04:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Dante Chusuk on 23/02/2007 20:02:28
Actually on a high end CPU you do get a rather significant FPS drop in Eve with sound on without hardware support. But I guess it's what you consider "significant". With hardware support and sound on I have recorded a maximum drop of 1-2 fps and that's when there is a LOT of incoming fire/missiles etc ... without hardware support (i.e. onboard sound/CPU) drops were in excess of 10 fps in a "busy" environment ...
And as they are reopening the sound team to improve the sound I can only assume this is a higher bit rate and more simultaneous voices ... the sort of stuff that will eat away at your CPU overheads without CPU support.
All tests were carried out on a friend's Intel Core 2 Duo X6800 (2 Gig RAM, one client only, core affinty set) with and without my Creative XFi card (the one with onboard memory). Similar FPS differences were recorded on my own PC with an AMD X2 4400+ (slightly up from stock clock) and 1 Gig of RAM.
Edit: Ok, part of this may be due to the current eve client being CPU limited to an extent but that still doesn't mean we should abandon hardware support because it's not available. That's akin to saying "well most of the world doesn't have DX10 gfx cards yet so why bother making a DX10/Vista client" 
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Amida Ta
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Posted - 2007.02.25 22:15:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Dante Chusuk
Edited by: Dante Chusuk on 23/02/2007 20:02:28
Actually on a high end CPU you do get a rather significant FPS drop in Eve with sound on without hardware support. But I guess it's what you consider "significant". With hardware support and sound on I have recorded a maximum drop of 1-2 fps and that's when there is a LOT of incoming fire/missiles etc ... without hardware support (i.e. onboard sound/CPU) drops were in excess of 10 fps in a "busy" environment ...
Does your XFI have a native driver for Vista? Or how did you test that?
Don't forget that under Vista the Audio runs in the same ring as the applications. In XP they ran in different rings (which should be much slower), so there is not much sense in comparing on a XP platform, if you did that.
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Lokius Ahgamemnon
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Posted - 2007.02.26 08:33:00 -
[19]
I'm running Vista Ultimate X64, the sound I get through my Logitec 500watt 5.1 system is leaps and bounds over that what I heard from xp...and I'm only running beta drivers for my X-Fi Extreme Music, I can notice the sound quality has sky rocketed with vista..and I don't have any sound problems in EVE, I actually get a lot more fps in game than I did with xp, so idk what all your complaining is about, Vista is leaps and bounds over xp in every aspect
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Dante Chusuk
Golden Aardvark Society
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Posted - 2007.02.26 17:24:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Dante Chusuk on 26/02/2007 17:21:15
Amida, yes. XFi does have a Vista driver but it's DirectSound that is the issue.
Originally by: Lokius Ahgamemnon
I'm running Vista Ultimate X64, the sound I get through my Logitec 500watt 5.1 system is leaps and bounds over that what I heard from xp...and I'm only running beta drivers for my X-Fi Extreme Music, I can notice the sound quality has sky rocketed with vista..and I don't have any sound problems in EVE, I actually get a lot more fps in game than I did with xp, so idk what all your complaining is about, Vista is leaps and bounds over xp in every aspect
The fact I get worse quality sound in Eve with the same edition of Vista (ok not my PC) as you are using? You have read the OpenAL page information on how DirectSound has been changed in DirectX10 I take it?
I take it you are referring to just Eve sound as that's really all we are looking at here. Most of the other stuff I play now has OpenAL support so that's going to be a moot point for when I upgrade my own PC to Vista Ultimate.
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Lokius Ahgamemnon
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Posted - 2007.02.26 20:14:00 -
[21]
no I'm not just talking about EVE sound, I'm talking about my music files, my dvds, everything, just sounds richer fuller...everything
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