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Soporo	Posted - 2006.12.19 04:00:00 - [91] Anyone who does what the Op is decrying is basically just a candy ass who couldnt dare to engage the ship when piloted. Shrugs There are all kinds of lame behavior in EVE, this is jusr a different flavor.
Ghoest	Posted - 2006.12.19 04:08:00 - [92] Originally by: Soporo Anyone who does what the Op is decrying is basically just a candy ass who couldnt dare to engage the ship when piloted. Shrugs There are all kinds of lame behavior in EVE, this is jusr a different flavor. Your point? Are you saying because the people doing are lame that we should just let it go? My thought is that Kali/Revolutions is a slow motion train wreck. Wherever you went - here you are.
Ket Halpak ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.19 04:21:00 - [93] Originally by: Elendar what if this is how cyvok's titan was caught, should it then be given back because of this? I wold reckon not, as this isnt a bug, it is proper game mechanics, BUT emergency warping should not occur in a pos as you are safe in its sheilds, if you log in a ship, it should remain visible, but if you are in a pod, it should dissapear immediately.
FowlPlayChiken Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.19 04:31:00 - [94] the funny thing is that i even anchored a bubble next to the pos to prevent e-warping, and even that dosent warp; logofski in a bubble and you warp as normal. Just podded this sig, now where is my toy? - Wrangler
Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive	Posted - 2006.12.19 04:48:00 - [95] This issue reminds me of the whole mess around pirates probing out missions in high sec. Both issues are caused by new scanning content and both turn on the same arguments about the actions being exploits or not. Probing seems to be too easy at the moment and the devs have agreed to look at it, so hey, a fix is likely on the way. Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Is there anything other than ISK you might be interested in?
0August0 Gallente The Crucible	Posted - 2006.12.19 06:43:00 - [96] I don't see a valid purpose for a ship warping anywhere when its pilot logs out. It seems a rather clunky game feature designed to protect miners and mission runners from NPC swarms when they are accidentily disconnected from the game. While it does work for that purpose it seems to me there could be a better way to do that. Maybe by just having NPCs stand down when the game senses the player has disconnected. Otherwise I say keep the ship where it was at disconnect until the timer expires and the ship dissapears. . . . Regards, August
Brannor McThife Caldari ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.19 07:22:00 - [97] Originally by: FowlPlayChiken Im asking my buds in MC not to use this tactic unless CCP declares it to be a valid way of killing someone. if it is, I can assure you, the MC have plenty of well trained covops and recon characters ready to busy a logoff spot near you. Until then, I can only assume this is an unintentional game 'feature', and so must refrain from using it. Though I agree that ganking people who have no aggression timer is ethically wrong, how are we as Covert Ops pilots to clearly identify them as having not been involved in combat? Yes, there are times that it is clearly easy to identify non-cambatants, but sometimes it isn't. I guess the best way for us, is to simply not sit and scan POS's and go for the logoff kill, regardless of aggression timer or no, and show that we are better than this (last night was my last time, I won't do it again until we hear from CCP, sorry ). I too want a clear answer by CCP. Their silence does imply that they intended it that way... -G
AKULA UrQuan Caldari STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.19 07:56:00 - [98] I've pulled this trick on a few XS/HORDE pilots over in fountain a week ago even was able to scan out and zap a HORDE pod that CTD before he could log back in. An alert covert pilot is now extremely deadly post kali. It's just too bad they hardly ever get in on killmails w/o takeing retarded risks. Is it an Exploit? I don't think so. The target just needs to put a bit of thought in where he logs out to avoid this happening in many cases. The CYVOK incident in my eyes was a case of a very alert BoB covert getting lucky an observer scan. Those Observer scans could've very easily failed one after the other till the Avatar was removed from the game. Originally by: Wrangler Win ME is more a some sort of virus than a OS..
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.19 08:40:00 - [99] Sounds like a ebil tactics. Gotta remember this myself "It's great being Amarr, ain't it?Ö" "A world without pain"
Zara Torbe	Posted - 2006.12.19 08:42:00 - [100] You should be 'docked' for all intensive purposes when you enter a forcefield POS and log Ridiculous Obvious unintended Fu*ck up by CCP tbh, i can see a fix coming soon
ScreamingLord Sutch Hand in Mouth	Posted - 2006.12.19 08:44:00 - [101] Originally by: Zara Torbe You should be 'docked' for all intensive purposes when you enter a forcefield POS and log No, thats what the ship array thing is for. And it's "for all intents and purposes".
checkmarquet	Posted - 2006.12.19 09:01:00 - [102] Ridiculous. To be able to play in 0.0 must have no life? No emergency logout?wife, kids, phone? have to thrown it all away to be able to play?, or stuck in empire?
DrAtomic Atomic Heroes	Posted - 2006.12.19 09:10:00 - [103] Whilst I'm strongly oppossed to griefing tactics in general I don't see an issue here at all: 1. Logoff in a system with hostiles in it; you are taking a risk whilst you and your pod are entering subspace. 2. Logoff in a system with friendlies in it; you are safe. Bottomline; don't logoff in hostile space (space is regarded hostile if it has one or more neutrals or worse in it) or in space you are sieging or are being besieged in. Sounds like fair game mechanics to me. ----------------------------------------------- The BIG Lottery
Farjung Gallente TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.19 09:32:00 - [104] Originally by: Coasterbrian Edited by: Coasterbrian on 19/12/2006 00:40:53 Originally by: FowlPlayChiken I have killmails from several pilots, including a cyno alt that never left the pos shield or fired a gun in the last several days, who were scanprobed out, destroyed, and podded. It has already been petitioned, and CCP is looking into it. Im sure if they find that every one of these numerous kills had combat timers (they can tell), then I will find out through petition. At the moment, the GM said that he was looking into it, and seemed to take interest. If the GMs rule that people probed and killed after logging at a POS with no aggro timer, I'm going to have a LOT of alliancemates wanting reimbursement..... Again, this is nothing new, and I guess it's a pretty good testament to how often MC engages in system sieges. As one of most active covert ops pilots for the early stages of the war, I'm going to have to disagree there. While I knew it was possible prior to the changes, the 30 seconds spent launching probes + 75 second scan timer pre-patch made it fairly impractical to do regularly, and I've not personally got an ASCN ship like that, or heard of any BoB covert getting one like that since the war started. I have however got plenty of ASCN ships who logged at POS with aggro timer (15 battleships in the space of four or five hours when we first took a trip to AZN with a fleet for a couple of days all those weeks ago, a thanatos in TCAG, etc.), and given your alliance's apparent proclivity for blaming the BoB bogeyman for all that goes wrong, I'd take their claims to have been probed without aggression timer with a pinch of salt. With the new <40 second from start to finish scanning process, it's certainly a lot more realistic to get someone who isn't on aggro timer - but there are procedures you can follow that will minimise the risk and still make it nigh on impossible to be found quickly enough to be killed like this. --- Wave of Mutilation 2
BurnHard	Posted - 2006.12.19 09:36:00 - [105] Originally by: Farjung but there are procedures you can follow that will minimise the risk and still make it nigh on impossible to be found quickly enough to be killed like this. Please enumerate them .
AKULA UrQuan Caldari STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.19 09:48:00 - [106] Originally by: BurnHard Originally by: Farjung but there are procedures you can follow that will minimise the risk and still make it nigh on impossible to be found quickly enough to be killed like this. Please enumerate them . 1: Poke around the system for any active 20+ AU probes. 2: Warp to a SS in a oddball location at over 14.6 AUs from the nearest warpable object. 3: Do another 360 max range scan just to be sure. Now if you want to be really paranoid load up your lows with backup arrays. Really screws with scans. Originally by: Wrangler Win ME is more a some sort of virus than a OS..
Majaraw Awalabas Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.19 09:52:00 - [107] It is an idiotic game mechanic which existed before the 45 second probes. I fought in Amarr against a mercenary corp, I waited out my aggro timer and logged out in space (because undocking from stations with a black screen has become a regular occurence in Amarr and resulted in a loss of a few ships and pods). I logged in the next day and to my shock found myself not in my effective Arbitrator but a pod. I contacted the mercs on my killmail and they informed me they saw me log out and whipped out probes and got lucky. This has been happening for months now, but with 45 second probing now in place, it has just become more common. If I can not log out of a game for fear of losing stuff while offline, why would I bother logging in?
Nardon Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.19 09:55:00 - [108] I think that warping away out of a POS force field is an oversight. Though I'm not sure there is an easy way to detect whether or not the ship is inside the field. Hence the stupid warp away. The obvious solution is to fix the warp routine. Another idea might be to give every ship a way to shut down the sensors. Not completely as you'd be absolutely safe from probes. But reduce the sensor strength so that there is a decent chance that you wouldn't be scanned down in two minutes. The downside had to be a restart timer for the sensor systems of lets say two minutes again. And of course the overview would be rendered useless with sensors shut down.
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.19 10:00:00 - [109] Logging off at a POS isn't very smart to begin with, so you should be looking for alternatives anyway. And alternatives do exist, where your vulnerability is decreased by a large enough margin to not make it worth your enemies' time to probe at all. Old blog Originally by: Vriezuh Naz: John is a realist
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence	Posted - 2006.12.19 10:03:00 - [110] it should stay inside shield during the timer "run" pos shield is a home, supposedly ------ relaxed corp looking for members
Hans Roaming Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.19 10:24:00 - [111] I mean what about for people under attack in their own systems, log at a station and get camped to death for an evening or log at a POS and get splatted by the invaders when they go for you ship logging off. Yeah it gets kills but this is a game and aren't games meant to be fun and having a one sided fight whilst ones logged off isn't really upping the enjoyment factor for either side.
Jon Hawkes ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.19 10:30:00 - [112] Originally by: Arian Snow Edited by: Arian Snow on 19/12/2006 00:59:02 some MC folk did that to my Wolf! I logged inside POS, you probed and killed me... so its ****ty gamemechanics, even if you are my enemy! O and look at your own backyard before you call us exploiters! Arian, I will put my hand up and say that that was me, not MC, who scanned you down. Unfortunately, the pilot doing the scanning has no way of telling if the ship he has found has got an agression timer or not, so I engaged and destroyed the Wolf (which took a long time with only 1 Light Drone!) If you are certain that you had no aggression timer, petition the loss under "reimbursement" and drop me and evemail with the GM response in game. I still have the loot from the ship somewhere in my fantastically untidy hanger, and I'll arrange to drop it off to you if the GMs reimburse the rest of your ship. I've trained as a Covert Ops specialist for over a year now, and even though I love the new scan probe system, I do not think any pilot who has not aggressed should be able to be destroyed after logging out.
slothe Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.12.19 10:31:00 - [113] Edited by: slothe on 19/12/2006 10:31:51 i used to do this pre - kali. the log off range is around 1millkm so it was possible to watch a pos, watch log off, go to a ss short distance away, and if lucky catch someone. the only people you were going to catch were those with aggression still, all fair game imho. you didnt used to be able to find people who just logged off as there (just) wasnt enough time. theres a problem here- we need to be able to scan quickly for loggoffskis (and the same would seem to apply to those logging off at pos). maybe the solution is for people who log off inside pos, stay inside pos area if not aggressed, and log back off inside pos. if you were to make it harder to scan people down then loggoffskis would get away which we dont want. *Before complaining about any ship try flying Minmatar*
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express	Posted - 2006.12.19 10:31:00 - [114] I see this as a problem. Especially out in the new regions, as there are no stations there and no outposts, and probably won't be anytime soon. Now if you were in combat you should be able to be found. I agree though that if you let your agro timer go out then you should be safe. What might be a good solution is a mechanism similar to that employed by NCSoft in the CoH/CoV game. You can log out in those games but there is a timer. In those games it is a 30 second timer. While the timer is going you are still in the game world, NPCs can still attack you, if you are in a PVP zone PCs can still attack you. However there is a catch you can sit there and watch the timer go down. If for any reason, like you are being attacked, you wish to abort leaving the game you can press any key and keep going as necessary. You can also chose not to watch the timer go down and exit immediately, but doing so you can get attacked, and possibly sent to the hospital (there version of cloning really). But it seems EVE would benefit from a similar timer. Give you 2 minutes timer when you leave voluntarily, obviously wouldn't help with CTD issues or other such occurances, but might help to avoid some situations as presented by the OP. Galactic Express Recruitment Post
Jessica Lorelei Minmatar Decimus Corp Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.12.19 10:32:00 - [115] scanning down and killing someone who legitimately logs at a pos when they have to go to bed sounds to me like trying to score a goal after the final whistle has blown. hah and basement dwellers tend to be between 30 and 40...and virgins. -NEVER CONFUSE OPPINION WITH FACT-
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.19 10:38:00 - [116] Originally by: Hans Roaming I mean what about for people under attack in their own systems, log at a station and get camped to death for an evening or log at a POS and get splatted by the invaders when they go for you ship logging off. Yeah it gets kills but this is a game and aren't games meant to be fun and having a one sided fight whilst ones logged off isn't really upping the enjoyment factor for either side. Hans, give the issue some thought. I'm fairly surprised that MC don't already know how to deal with this tbh. Oh and yes, home system or not, the moment an enemy fleet rolls in it's not the best place to be in, and not the best place to log in. Warzones carrying increased risk in certain ways is fine with me. YOu can always get out. Old blog Originally by: Vriezuh Naz: John is a realist
Fubear Vogon Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.12.19 10:49:00 - [117] This thread is a kneejerk reaction to a change in game mechanics people didn't notice until it was too late. This is not a carebear hugs and kisses MMO where everyone holds hands while playing nicely together. It is a hardcore MMO which punishes people for their mistakes in 0.0, and this is nothing more than your pilots making an obvious mistake and paying the price for it. 1) Your pilot knew when you log off you emergency warp. 2) Your pilot knew you hang around in space for 2 minutes after you log. 3) Your pilot knew there were hostiles in system. 4) Your pilot knew (or should know, or at least knows now) that you can be probed out in less than 30 second post kali. 5) Your pilot decided to log off in a predictable location anyway. 6) Pilot died. I like the new system, it makes it a little more dangerous tying to live out of a POS, especially in hostle territory.
Jorak Falconstar Amarr	Posted - 2006.12.19 10:51:00 - [118] I guess then the point Fowl is trying to make here could also be applied to losing connection somehow such as a power failure or other event outside of the players control.
Mag's Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2006.12.19 10:58:00 - [119] While I do see that being able to scan ships so quickly, could be a problem when logging off. The thing I find most amazing, is that people believe it's 'safe' to log at a POS.
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2006.12.19 11:15:00 - [120] Edited by: DarkMatter on 19/12/2006 11:15:00 I think they need to change the mechanic so that if you log off inside a POS bubble, your ship just disappears inside the bubble, no warp out. Safety is supposed to be one of the advantages of your corp/alliance having a POS, this tactic is definitely an exploit of the poor game mechanics and something should be done about it... Newest toy for my 63 acre sandbox Building the homestead

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