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Caladan Panzureborn
Aliastra Gallente Federation
14
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Posted - 2015.09.28 20:14:23 -
[1] - Quote
I don't know if I've ever seen a PvP fit with a warp stab anywhere. I was just thinking, maybe instead of a DC II, I should run a single warp stab instead. Giving me the chance at least of an escape instead of a few extra seconds delaying the inevitable explosion a DC provides? I seem to have no luck at just flying out of point range. This idea is strictly for 1v1 low-sec frigate or destroyer pvp in FW plexes or roams. Armor tanked. Anyone try this? Thoughts? |
Persephone Alleile
Nocx Initiative Eternal Pretorian Alliance
29
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Posted - 2015.09.28 20:19:10 -
[2] - Quote
Warp stabs kill your targeting range and scan resolution so fitting them on PVP ships is usually a bad idea. |
Caladan Panzureborn
Aliastra Gallente Federation
14
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Posted - 2015.09.28 20:27:27 -
[3] - Quote
Persephone Alleile wrote:Warp stabs kill your targeting range and scan resolution so fitting them on PVP ships is usually a bad idea.
Ah...right. Targeting range. They should change that. There should be a counter to warp scram that does not include a penalty besides taking up a slot. Or there should be a penalty for using a scram or point other than cap usage.
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1488
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Posted - 2015.09.28 20:36:50 -
[4] - Quote
Caladan Panzureborn wrote:Persephone Alleile wrote:Warp stabs kill your targeting range and scan resolution so fitting them on PVP ships is usually a bad idea. Ah...right. Targeting range. They should change that. There should be a counter to warp scram that does not include a penalty besides taking up a slot. Or there should be a penalty for using a scram or point other than cap usage. Nope. Balance, choose wheather you are able to run or stay and fight, not both. There are counters to scram/point: don't get scrammed by situational awareness / range control, win the fight, neut the opponent empty, etc.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Persephone Alleile
Nocx Initiative Eternal Pretorian Alliance
29
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Posted - 2015.09.28 20:42:37 -
[5] - Quote
Yeah there are ways to deal with warp disruption. PVP is really all about range control, you can slow your opponent with webs and burn out of point range, if your target is kiting you at the edge of point range you can approach them and then do a 180 and burn back the other way to try to slingshot out of range, etc. You can also use ECM to break their lock, neut them out as Tipa said, and so on. |
Caladan Panzureborn
Aliastra Gallente Federation
14
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Posted - 2015.09.28 21:05:31 -
[6] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:Caladan Panzureborn wrote:Persephone Alleile wrote:Warp stabs kill your targeting range and scan resolution so fitting them on PVP ships is usually a bad idea. Ah...right. Targeting range. They should change that. There should be a counter to warp scram that does not include a penalty besides taking up a slot. Or there should be a penalty for using a scram or point other than cap usage. Nope. Balance, choose wheather you are able to run or stay and fight, not both. There are counters to scram/point: don't get scrammed by situational awareness / range control, win the fight, neut the opponent empty, ECM, etc.
I can't imagine changing your opinion on that but I don't agree that's balanced. The hard counter to scram/point has a harsh penalty. Using a scram/point has no penalty. Not getting hit in the first place is not really a counter(avoidance?), neuting may or may not work at all and also has a heavy cost to it. ECM is RNG based so again, not a fair counter. The penalty for a stab is 50% reduced targeting range so in this type of fight it may look to still be a viable strategy on a ship with a 40-50km range. I guess I'm answering my own question now. Maybe I'll try it. Silly for me to consider Forum goers to think outside of the box. But meh, I'm bored here at work so whatever. Also, I see that before "Revelations" there was no penalty at all for running stabs but was later added to balance against people abusing them. Seems stupid to me. It would make much more sense to implement diminishing returns on them than do what they did. Meh, my last day in this game is Thursday when my sub expires. Remind me not to care or post again. =)
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1489
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Posted - 2015.09.28 21:30:03 -
[7] - Quote
Damn, fell for the troll, forgot that your are "that guy".
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
8668
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Posted - 2015.09.28 21:31:06 -
[8] - Quote
Caladan Panzureborn wrote: Silly for me to consider Forum goers to think outside of the box. But meh, I'm bored here at work so whatever.
That's a fairly arrogant thing to say, from one so clueless about this game. Approach with humility, and be rewarded.
Quote:Meh, my last day in this game is Thursday when my sub expires. Remind me not to care or post again. =)
Duly noted. "...and nothing of value was lost".
[b]----
CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off.[/b]
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
121
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Posted - 2015.09.28 21:33:43 -
[9] - Quote
Caladan Panzureborn wrote:Meh, my last day in this game is Thursday when my sub expires. Been there, done that. You'll be back.
After 5-10 years, and only for a free re-sub trial just to remember why you left in the first place.
But you'll be back.
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
809
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Posted - 2015.09.28 21:51:35 -
[10] - Quote
Caladan Panzureborn wrote:Meh, my last day in this game is Thursday when my sub expires. Remind me not to care or post again.
I can haz your stuff?
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25187
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Posted - 2015.09.28 21:58:10 -
[11] - Quote
Caladan Panzureborn wrote:Ah...right. Targeting range. They should change that. This is why you failed at Eve, you keep trying to change the game to suit your playstyle instead of changing your playstyle to suit the game
Quote:There should be a counter to warp scram that does not include a penalty besides taking up a slot. Or there should be a penalty for using a scram or point other than cap usage. There is a counter that doesn't involve taking up a slot or any other penalties, it's called situational awareness.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1538
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Posted - 2015.09.28 23:29:36 -
[12] - Quote
If nothing else fitting a PvP ship with stabs sort of means you are already thinking you will lose and will need to escape. Not the best mindset for entering PvP.
The only thing that I fit stabs are with T1 industrial like Epithals trying to sneak through low. The reason is they are vulnerable to roaming solo low SP new players in T1 frigates who like to take potshots at things and tend to only fit the one scram. Even then its debatable as more nanos/i-stabs to align faster is probably more sensible. |
Mephiztopheleze
Republic University Minmatar Republic
187
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Posted - 2015.09.29 00:11:18 -
[13] - Quote
Caladan Panzureborn wrote:I don't know if I've ever seen a PvP fit with a warp stab anywhere. I was just thinking, maybe instead of a DC II, I should run a single warp stab instead. Giving me the chance at least of an escape instead of a few extra seconds delaying the inevitable explosion a DC provides? I seem to have no luck at just flying out of point range. This idea is strictly for 1v1 low-sec frigate or destroyer pvp in FW plexes or roams. Armor tanked. Anyone try this? Thoughts?
Bad idea for 1v1.
There is/was an Interceptor Fleet Doctrine run by, iirc Black Legion (RIP), that used warp stabs, sebos and no prop mod, kind of like mini Slippery Petes. Said doctrine relied heavily on bookmarks, top notch probing skills and a dang good FC.
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1808
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Posted - 2015.09.29 01:31:18 -
[14] - Quote
Caladan Panzureborn wrote:Persephone Alleile wrote:Warp stabs kill your targeting range and scan resolution so fitting them on PVP ships is usually a bad idea. Ah...right. Targeting range. They should change that. There should be a counter to warp scram that does not include a penalty besides taking up a slot. Or there should be a penalty for using a scram or point other than cap usage. that is how stabs used to work. it was decided it was a bad idea and the penalties got added.
and anyways in FW so many people use scrams having only 1 warp stab probably wouldn't be worth it.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Suchblue Akiga
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2015.09.29 03:26:25 -
[15] - Quote
Caladan Panzureborn wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:Caladan Panzureborn wrote:Persephone Alleile wrote:Warp stabs kill your targeting range and scan resolution so fitting them on PVP ships is usually a bad idea. Ah...right. Targeting range. They should change that. There should be a counter to warp scram that does not include a penalty besides taking up a slot. Or there should be a penalty for using a scram or point other than cap usage. Nope. Balance, choose wheather you are able to run or stay and fight, not both. There are counters to scram/point: don't get scrammed by situational awareness / range control, win the fight, neut the opponent empty, ECM, etc. I can't imagine changing your opinion on that but I don't agree that's balanced. The hard counter to scram/point has a harsh penalty. Using a scram/point has no penalty. Not getting hit in the first place is not really a counter(avoidance?), neuting may or may not work at all and also has a heavy cost to it. ECM is RNG based so again, not a fair counter. The penalty for a stab is 50% reduced targeting range so in this type of fight it may look to still be a viable strategy on a ship with a 40-50km range. I guess I'm answering my own question now. Maybe I'll try it. Silly for me to consider Forum goers to think outside of the box. But meh, I'm bored here at work so whatever. Also, I see that before "Revelations" there was no penalty at all for running stabs but was later added to balance against people abusing them. Seems stupid to me. It would make much more sense to implement diminishing returns on them than do what they did. Meh, my last day in this game is Thursday when my sub expires. Remind me not to care or post again. =)
Let me guess -- you come from WoW. |
Syeed Ameer Ali
Evil Murder Society
18
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Posted - 2015.09.29 03:57:29 -
[16] - Quote
Caladan Panzureborn wrote:Persephone Alleile wrote:Warp stabs kill your targeting range and scan resolution so fitting them on PVP ships is usually a bad idea. Ah...right. Targeting range. They should change that. There should be a counter to warp scram that does not include a penalty besides taking up a slot. Or there should be a penalty for using a scram or point other than cap usage.
Don't be such a ridiculous *******.
everevolutionaryfront.blogspot.com
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
8727
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Posted - 2015.09.29 04:41:19 -
[17] - Quote
Caladan Panzureborn wrote:Persephone Alleile wrote:Warp stabs kill your targeting range and scan resolution so fitting them on PVP ships is usually a bad idea. Ah...right. Targeting range. They should change that. There should be a counter to warp scram that does not include a penalty besides taking up a slot. Or there should be a penalty for using a scram or point other than cap usage. A long, long time ago...
When Warp Core Stabilizers were first introduced they had no penalties besides the CPU you needed to fit them. People took full advantage of this by fitting them to long-range sniper ships (usually battleships). Snipers would warp in at extreme range, pound away, and then warp off as soon as something (usually a Frigate that was fast enough to cover the distance) pointed them. Then they would warp off. Rinse and repeat.
This became so popular / bad that the DEVs decided that this was not "good gameplay" and offered nerfed the module (because the mantra here is; if you want to achieve something, be smarter than everyone else or commit more).
My advice, as a veteran? If you want to PvP then ignore Warp Core Stabs. By fitting them you create a self-fulfilling prophecy where you HAVE to run because they... - nerf your targeting range and speed. - take up a slot that would otherwise make you more combat effective.
Warp Core Stabs are really only good for travelling unmolested (which is the entire idea of the module).
Also... FYI: one Warp Core Stab isn't going to help you if you get into a brawl. Warp Scramblers (which are typically used in brawls) have a strength of 2... meaning you have to fit 2 Warp Core Stabs to counter it.
How did you Veterans start?
The Skillpoint System and You
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Cara Forelli
Green Skull LLC Bad Intention
1254
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Posted - 2015.09.29 05:17:44 -
[18] - Quote
Dropping damage control on an armor frigate is gonna cut your tank nearly in half. That alone would be a good reason to never fit one to a brawling ship.
Scrams and disruptors form the backbone which makes EVE PvP complex. It is precisely because of their strong effects that other things, like optimal range, tracking, etc. have meaning. They create the need for tough fitting decisions to balance range control with tank and damage. Otherwise every fight would go strictly by the numbers and piloting would play no role. Whatever combination provided the most DPS per EHP would win every time. Instead we have a system where clever use of range control can help you win a fight that would otherwise be impossible.
You were given a whole bunch of direct counters to scrams (webs/scrams/AB/overdrive for range control, neuts, ECM, etc.) and ignored them. I would say it is you that refuses to think outside the box since there are so many tools at your disposal but you refuse to take advantage of them.
I had hoped your previous experiences (ninja looting and what have you) would have opened your eyes a little to the vast potential of EVE, but alas, you seem pretty set on assuming the worst of us. Good luck with whatever game you play next. Hopefully it will match your desired play-style a bit better.
Adventures
New player with questions? Join my public channel in game: House Forelli
Titan's Lament
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
121
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Posted - 2015.09.29 05:38:37 -
[19] - Quote
Cara Forelli wrote:Scrams and disruptors form the backbone which makes EVE PvP complex. It is precisely because of their strong effects that other things, like optimal range, tracking, etc. have meaning. Lets be fair though, the only impact stabs have on the fight is letting you leave. They don't let you win, they just deny the killmail. Which was undoubtedly one of the largest reasons for nerfing them. Just looking at the number of people who complained about the Fozziesov not granting KMs should show that.
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Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1497
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Posted - 2015.09.29 08:07:43 -
[20] - Quote
OP is obviously this guy
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Sabriz Adoudel
Black Hydra Consortium.
5377
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Posted - 2015.09.29 08:38:04 -
[21] - Quote
Stabs without penalties would be extremely overpowered on sniper boats.
That's why there are ships with inherent warp core strength and they are ships that cannot be used for sniping at all (the Venture for one).
I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
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Azda Ja
Green Skull LLC Bad Intention
4430
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Posted - 2015.09.29 08:43:27 -
[22] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:Lets be fair though, the only impact stabs have on the fight is letting you leave. They don't let you win, they just deny the killmail. Apart from lock range, lock speed, and you know, being able to fit better modules on the ship in those valuable low slots. That's a pretty hefty impact on a ship. It's not only that they don't directly help you win, it's that they straight up hamstring your ship.
Because sometimes you die. And sometimes we are why. GSLLC is Recruiting.
Grrr I tell you. Grrr.
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1567
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Posted - 2015.09.29 08:44:03 -
[23] - Quote
battle ventures
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
122
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Posted - 2015.09.29 15:04:39 -
[24] - Quote
Azda Ja wrote:Apart from lock range, lock speed, and you know, being able to fit better modules on the ship in those valuable low slots. That's a pretty hefty impact on a ship. It's not only that they don't directly help you win, it's that they straight up hamstring your ship. They do now, but in discussing why they were powerful enough to be nerfed in the first place that wouldn't be relevant. |
Azda Ja
Green Skull LLC Bad Intention
4432
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Posted - 2015.09.29 15:13:23 -
[25] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:Azda Ja wrote:Aerasia wrote:Lets be fair though, the only impact stabs have on the fight is letting you leave. They don't let you win, they just deny the killmail. Apart from lock range, lock speed, and you know, being able to fit better modules on the ship in those valuable low slots. That's a pretty hefty impact on a ship. It's not only that they don't directly help you win, it's that they straight up hamstring your ship. They do now, but in discussing why they were powerful enough to be nerfed in the first place that wouldn't be relevant.
Because sometimes you die. And sometimes we are why. GSLLC is Recruiting.
Grrr I tell you. Grrr.
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Cara Forelli
Green Skull LLC Bad Intention
1257
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Posted - 2015.09.29 16:49:59 -
[26] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:Caladan Panzureborn wrote:Meh, my last day in this game is Thursday when my sub expires. Been there, done that. You'll be back. After 5-10 years, and only for a free re-sub trial just to remember why you left in the first place. But you'll be back. And apparently spewing the same inane nonsense of how to fix the game to meet your standards without actually playing it.
Adventures
New player with questions? Join my public channel in game: House Forelli
Titan's Lament
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Trevor Dalech
We pooped on your lawn Resonance.
171
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Posted - 2015.09.29 21:50:56 -
[27] - Quote
Caladan Panzureborn wrote:There should be a counter to warp scram
The counter to warp scram is killing your enemy.
if you decide to engage someone (and yes, once you know what you are doing every fight can be a conscious decision) you have to commit yourself to the fact that either you, or your opponent is going to blow up. There are no easy outs.
I'm sure plenty of people are willing to correct me now, stating things like neuts, jams, damps or pulling range, but I stand by this statement. If you commit you commit, and must run the risk of blowing up. If you're in a losing fight and manage to pull a hat trick and escape alive you're lucky. Don't count on luck saving you every time. |
Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
675
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 04:23:28 -
[28] - Quote
Caladan Panzureborn wrote:I don't know if I've ever seen a PvP fit with a warp stab anywhere. I was just thinking, maybe instead of a DC II, I should run a single warp stab instead. Giving me the chance at least of an escape instead of a few extra seconds delaying the inevitable explosion a DC provides? I seem to have no luck at just flying out of point range. This idea is strictly for 1v1 low-sec frigate or destroyer pvp in FW plexes or roams. Armor tanked. Anyone try this? Thoughts?
Why are you trying to fly out of point range? If you are trying to kite you need a ship fast enough to burn off before they tackle you (6k m/s or higher) or just don't warp into an occupied plex. Discover the mysteries of Dscan. Or fly a brawler and don't be a coward.
Methinks you're doing it wrong. There is absolutely no reason to fit a warp stab on a combat ship.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
675
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Posted - 2015.09.30 04:24:58 -
[29] - Quote
Trevor Dalech wrote:Caladan Panzureborn wrote:There should be a counter to warp scram
The counter to warp scram is killing your enemy. if you decide to engage someone (and yes, once you know what you are doing every fight can be a conscious decision) you have to commit yourself to the fact that either you, or your opponent is going to blow up. There are no easy outs. I'm sure plenty of people are willing to correct me now, stating things like neuts, jams, damps or pulling range, but I stand by this statement. If you commit you commit, and must run the risk of blowing up. If you're in a losing fight and manage to pull a hat trick and escape alive you're lucky. Don't count on luck saving you every time.
The counter for warp scram is being in something designed to fight while scrammed (I.e. AB brawler) or not putting yourself in a position to get scrammed.
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Bienator II
madmen of the skies
3399
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Posted - 2015.09.30 05:46:53 -
[30] - Quote
your best bet would be the venture. it can be fit for pvp and it has two built in stabs without having its penalties or wasting slots
how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
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