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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
162
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:53:35 -
[1] - Quote
CCP has come out with some pretty terrible ideas in their history but this one has got to be the worst.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
164
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Posted - 2015.10.15 18:45:34 -
[2] - Quote
Ok, so I will take this suggestion seriously for a second and try and offer some constructive feedback.
First of all you do realise this will flood the market with SP as there are so many people with SP spent on skills that are useless to them.
So basically what this will be is an instant level up to 80mil SP; 80mil of unallocated SP. So your making the same mistake that Blizzard made when it effectively removed a good chunk of the starter experience and progressed everyone straight to level 80.
SP currently has a value which is determined by the amount of time it takes to accumulate, this is valued highly as the method by which it accrues can not be modified by play time or grinding and is relatively unchangeable across all characters, and is only marginally modified by implants. So by allowing SP to be traded on the market you will obviously massively reduce the value of SP.
This has many consequences, there are too many for me to detail here, but to put it simply in one fell swoop will destroy what has been a fundamental part of the game for the last 12 years. You will also ruin all of the hard work and good progress CCP have been putting in over the last couple of years to drive eve to be at the cutting edge of MMORPGs.
Why do you want to ruin the starter experience for new players by allowing them to skip through it anyway? The hard fix is to implement a more enjoyable starting experience which I can see you are struggling with and is a difficult task, but this quick fix solution which you suggest is definitely not the way forward. Unfortunately the only way is to carry on with what you have been doing so excellently in the last few years and put in the hard work to make eve a fundamentally better game.
So in essence this idea is one of the worse I've ever seen grace a devblog. I'd even be more inclined towards allowing people to completely wipe their characters name and history when doing a character transfer (with a good chunk of SP lost in the process). This would more elegantly solve the problems you list in the devblog, and most importantly would not devalue SP.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
164
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Posted - 2015.10.15 19:28:27 -
[3] - Quote
Nuke Chicken wrote:For you to even make this public for discussion has taken away from me any hoPe that this Company can ever return eve to a successful online game. Its over guys. R.I.P
(WTS Eve online to someone who has a ******* clue.) I've got to say this really does bash confidence that the devs in charge at CCP actually know what has made eve such a successful game. I am still waiting for some detail of that big presentation that Rise made at fanfest in which he stated that death was going to have serious consequences. But we get this instead...?
The game is becoming more and more meaningless with nothing else being added to balance this out. First we get SP loss removed (although not saying this couldn't be improved upon), then we get indestructible ship skins, and now we get this proposal that unwanted SP should be able to be transferred between characters.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
165
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Posted - 2015.10.15 19:43:18 -
[4] - Quote
Eternal Bob wrote:Interesting how the most popular reactions to this on /r/eve have been the positive ones. Luckily this forum isn't the only place devs go for feedback. It isn't interesting of surprising, Redit has always been a forum for the propagation of terrible ideas. It is mostly a cesspit. Just look at the recent ship skin bug debacle to get an idea of the type of entitled and short sighted suggestions they come out with. If I were CCP I'd stay well away from taking any suggestions off redit if they want to see eve in a good place for many years to come. If they want a short term cash grab though then redit is the perfect place.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
166
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Posted - 2015.10.15 19:54:30 -
[5] - Quote
Aren Dar wrote:One of the things I've observed in dealing with newer players is the number of people who have dropped out over the years because they joined with the assumption that they could grind game time. Exacerbated when there were a lot of people in a single group who were of the same mentality - eventually lots of them burnt out. And you get plenty of people who come into the game thinking they can grind PLEX to sub their accounts. They usually burn out before their trial has ended. Some losses are inevitable, it doesn't mean you change the fundamental nature of the game so everyone can have free game time and be able to grind SP. These people will likely quit whatever you do anyway.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
167
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Posted - 2015.10.15 21:19:54 -
[6] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:CCP will already sell you ISK. You can already buy SP in the character bazaar. So, while I think it's a dumb idea, I don't think it will have the impact a lot of you think it will. I'll not be running to the closet to get out my army surplus helmet to protect my head from the falling sky on this one, I think. Mr Epeen Whilst SP is not being created from nothing, you are freeing up massive amounts of SP on characters that don't need those particular skills they trained.
Like you say it is a dumb idea anyway so why take that risk, personally i'd much rather see changes to the character bazaar and attempting to integrate that into the game, and perhaps allow a history wipe at the cost of SP (perhaps 25% SP loss).
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
167
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Posted - 2015.10.15 21:27:25 -
[7] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:CCP will already sell you ISK. You can already buy SP in the character bazaar. So, while I think it's a dumb idea, I don't think it will have the impact a lot of you think it will. I'll not be running to the closet to get out my army surplus helmet to protect my head from the falling sky on this one, I think. Mr Epeen Whilst SP is not being created from nothing, you are freeing up massive amounts of SP on characters that don't need those particular skills they trained. Like you say it is a dumb idea anyway so why take that risk, personally i'd much rather see changes to the character bazaar and attempting to integrate that into the game, and perhaps allow a history wipe at the cost of SP (perhaps 25% SP loss). How does that idea actually bring any character bazaar functions into the game? Character sales exist primarily for acquiring training, not erasing history. I don't use the character bazaar myself so I can't give you a conclusive answer to that. But going by CCP Rise's devblog the characters history and being stuck with a name he didn't want was a big drawback to using the bazaar. I can understand that point and so that is why I suggested a compromise could possibly be to erase history at the cost of SP loss.
If someone is willing to lose 25% of their SP to wipe their character then I'd say that is pretty reasonable. And after all it isn't unthinkable that in a high tec sci fi universe that there wouldn't be some way to erase ones identity at a cost.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
167
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Posted - 2015.10.15 22:09:14 -
[8] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Opner Dresden wrote:You want a particular skill on a particular character? Train it. Why should that be the only option? If someone else is willing to sell it, why can't I buy it like anything else? No one tells you if you want a ship to mine for it and build it yourself. Why is this different? Because SP has a value which will be diminished if you can liquidate unwanted skills and trade them with other players in the form of unallocated SP. A better question is why do you feel like you are such a special snowflake that you think you are entitled to buy skills which others have had to wait for for the last 12 years?
I remember Greyscale giving one of the reasons for not wanting to reimburse advanced industry when it was made to be useless was because he thought giving out unallocated SP diminishes the skill system. What has changed CCP?
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
170
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Posted - 2015.10.16 00:12:45 -
[9] - Quote
Seems like this thread has gone downhill.. There were some good points made on the first 30 or so pages.
I like how people keep simply stating character bazaar as an argument for implementing this idea. The character bazaar and this proposal are two completely separate things. Getting unallocated SP is of many magnitudes more desirable than purchasing a character from the bazaar.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
170
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Posted - 2015.10.16 00:20:15 -
[10] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:I have 123 million SP currently. That means if I buy a 500,000 SP packet I get just 50,000 SP to allocate. It is generally a horrible deal unless I become grotesquely rich in game. It is not the high SP characters that anyone with sense is really worried about. It is the day old newbies and alts that can effectively level up instantly to 50mil SP+.
Blizzard allowed characters to instantly level in WOW and we can all see how that turned out.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
177
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Posted - 2015.10.16 09:29:45 -
[11] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:I don't like this. Could be worse, but I don't like it.
A lowish hard cap would make it not as bad. But it still leads to "I just subscribed, but unless I spend more real money, I'll always be behind" For this to be even considered the hard cap would have to be no more than 20m SP. Anymore than 20m unallocated SP is just far too powerful. Even 20m seems like far too much, with 20m unallocated you can do a hell of a lot.
But this even then it is still a bad idea. Why not just improve the character bazaar. It has hardly been touched since it was released. For a start it could be integrated into the game. And I wouldn't be against more options to remodel the character (including name and history) for a cost.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
178
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Posted - 2015.10.16 11:23:35 -
[12] - Quote
The thing that makes the least sense is that the skill system is already designed in such a way that helps new players. Having copious amount of SP doesn't make you any better but simply allows more options in what you want to fly. That is the beauty of the skill system in eve.
Allowing players to buy SP for ISK will actually mainly help older players who want to recycle or sell SP, or train up alts quickly.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
178
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Posted - 2015.10.16 12:02:55 -
[13] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Estevan Andrard wrote:Portmanteau wrote:roberts dragon wrote:with all this passion think a few buckets of cold water is in order With CCP so obviously high, a spell in rehab is in order Imagine when players are high as a kite on bought SP. It is like Cocaine to boost dopamine. LOL And then they get alphapodded and lose it all, right? No because they removed consequences for death remember. And now they want to remove consequences for skill training too. Pick the wrong skill or remap, it won't matter, just liquidate the SP and use it however you want.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
180
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Posted - 2015.10.16 12:16:14 -
[14] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:And then they get alphapodded and lose it all, right? No because they removed consequences for death remember. And now they want to remove consequences for skill training too. Pick the wrong skill or remap, it won't matter, just liquidate the SP and use it however you want. Yeah, as the liquidation has a trivial cost.... what's the cost again, did they tell us yet? Logical deduction will tell you that this will clearly be affordable if this is meant to be designed to help new players. It is inevitable that this will be another feature that removes consequences, much like SP loss upon death, and indestructible ship skins.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
181
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Posted - 2015.10.16 12:53:07 -
[15] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:which is what the character bazzar has been doing for people since whenever it was introduced. GǪexcept that no game mechanics are being bypassed by the bazaar. Again, I know you are smarter than this, so just stop playing stupid. I don't know, perhaps he really is as stupid as he is displaying himself to be in this thread.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
183
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Posted - 2015.10.16 16:10:11 -
[16] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Laodell wrote:The choices you made during skill training are a permanent mark on the character and should be.
And now they won't be. Explain to me why that's bad. If you want a game with no consequences then why are you playing Eve?
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
183
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Posted - 2015.10.16 18:11:33 -
[17] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Laodell wrote:Not trying to belittle you in any way here, but here's a very relevant truth:
You haven't spent the time to grow a character for the years the older players have, to be able to appreciate the audacity of your statement. You cannot be asked to hold a valid opinion on a topic you have no frame of reference to understand. Laodell wrote:Because you can't wish consequences away. Who you are, in game or out, is a reflection of the choices you or the previous owner made. That's part of the consequences, or balance if I may, of buying SP though the purchase of a new toon. Moac Tor wrote:If you want a game with no consequences then why are you playing Eve? This is exactly why the change is good. "Consequences" for skill choices is not interesting gameplay. In fact, training skills isn't gameplay at all. I understand you have emotional and philosophical objections against the change but nowhere in your arguments do I see how this change will negative affect gameplay or subscriptions. It is not just a philosophical objection that the players have, the whole concept of eve has always been based around actions having consequences. That is what makes the gameplay interesting and stand out from other more generic MMORPGs. That is why I was asking why are you playing Eve.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
185
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Posted - 2015.10.16 18:53:20 -
[18] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Moac Tor wrote:It is not just a philosophical objection that the players have, the whole concept of eve has always been based around actions having consequences. That is what makes the gameplay interesting and stand out from other more generic MMORPGs. That is why I was asking why are you playing Eve. Please explain to me why you think consequences for skill choices makes for interesting gameplay. To someone who doesn't understand the concept it would take a long time to explain and you probably would still fail to understand and so it would be a waste of my time. If you really want to know though then have a look at a game like Dark Souls and see why that has been so successful and gathered a huge following.
Sure I would completely accept that a lot of people don't like this type of game though, but then what you need to keep in mind is that eve was always meant to have harsh consequences, and those who started playing 12 years ago and have kept the game running with their subs through all these years had signed up to a game in which every choice has a consequence.
There are plenty more games which will cater for the more casual so I don't understand why people would cling to a game which is clearly not suited for themselves and try and change it instead of finding one of the many games that would fit them perfectly.
Keep in mind though that this idea doesn't just fail due to the fact that it removes consequences though, there are many more reasons which have been detailed already in the thread.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
189
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Posted - 2015.10.16 19:17:10 -
[19] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Moac Tor wrote:To someone who doesn't understand the concept it would take a long time to explain and you probably would still fail to understand and so it would be a waste of my time. If you really want to know though then have a look at a game like Dark Souls and see why that has been so successful and gathered a huge following. So instead of posting an argument, you're flashing your EVE subscription credentials? That's a wonderful response. You prove my point; this is exactly why I didn't bother to waste my time writing out a comprehensive reply to you. If you read the entire reply then perhaps you would have a chance at seeing what people are trying to tell you, but it seems as though you are unable or don't want to hear it.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
192
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Posted - 2015.10.16 21:36:24 -
[20] - Quote
beakerax wrote:Marsha Mallow wrote:People have either genuinely forgotten just how bad the first year of play is, or they're deluded. I haven't. How is giving new players the expectation of making a significant down payment on what is to all appearances a boring, grindy game going to help retention? The first year of play was probably the best. I did give up after a week on the first attempt, but then I did a bit of research first and came back later and it was great fun.
Now after being in the game for quite a few years the game is still great and has a lot of charm, but it can never have the same magic and awe inspiring epic feel that it had in that first year. I can still see that same feeling though in the new players I speak to as they begin their journey.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
193
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Posted - 2015.10.16 22:53:44 -
[21] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:The good thing is it's starting to settle down quicker than usual and we can start to have a civil discussion. Mr Epeen Over a 110 pages and you think it is settling down quicker than usual? *chuckles*
It is going the same way all threads usually go, you get the initial response from the majority of people, and then towards the middle you get more reasoned discussion on the merits and drawbacks of the idea, and then towards the end you get the same old faces endlessly discussing/trolling the same points over and over again with no one agreeing.
We are at the end stage now.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
193
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Posted - 2015.10.17 09:46:31 -
[22] - Quote
I don't mean this as a personal attack on CCP Rise as he is a great Dev and probably the best when it comes to ship balancing and combat related stuff. But... when it comes to things like this I just don't feel like Rise and his team "get it".
After Greyscale left and a lot of the senior devs retired I feel like the core concept of eve is slowly fading out the minds of the people developing it. Thank god for Seagull at the top there and a couple of others who clearly get it, but if seagull were to leave for whatever reason I really don't have that much faith in eve being able to survive.
You may say it is unfair to pick on a single dev when the whole team is responsible, but the truth is these devs are the lead devs, and so the others follow them. This should have been a case where some bright spark came up with this absolute car crash of an idea and Rise shot it down before even wasting any more time on it.
Don't get me wrong CCP Rise is great when it comes to his specialist area, but when he has ventured into stuff like this and also into the new player related stuff I feel things have been taking backward step (also I still can't forgive him for releasing mordus upon us, but all the other good ship balancing work makes up for that).
Personally I think Seagull really need to imprint on the minds of the devs and also the playerbase what it means to play eve and the core concepts. This idea has taken us all by surprise to some degree and a mistake like this should not have even reached the drawing board.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
196
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Posted - 2015.10.17 17:42:07 -
[23] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:"if you haven't arbitrarily waited a few months for sp to accumulate, you have no business being able to fly a carrier"
are you aware how dumb that is? you shouldn't be flying a ship because you didn't wait an arbitrary amount of time? The concept of progression is pretty standard in video games. Some games may give you the illusion that you can access level 80 straight away by grinding for it, but the reality is that they have worked it out so that you arrive at that specific piece of content at a certain time. All video games work in this way.
Your complaint is equivalent to someone wanting to watch the end of the movie to find out what happens without watching the start or the middle, and then you would probably turn around and wonder why the movie sucked. There is a reason why everything can't be accessed on day one.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
197
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Posted - 2015.10.17 17:46:59 -
[24] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Moac Tor wrote:But on a more serious not if CCP takes their game design decisions based upon redit feedback then we would be playing a wow clone before you know it.
i see you've never been to reddit before. I had a look on it during the ship skin bug fiasco and all I saw was petulant children stamping their feet because they couldn't customise their ships however they wanted. Also the post linked above is very similar to the childish posting I observed before.
I don't think redit has ever come out with any proposal or contribution to the game that is sensible or noteworthy apart from the Pizza for CCP which was good, although that was mainly to make up for how bad some of them had behaved towards CC{ Fozzie and had nothing to do with game design.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
197
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Posted - 2015.10.17 17:50:24 -
[25] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Dave Stark wrote:"if you haven't arbitrarily waited a few months for sp to accumulate, you have no business being able to fly a carrier"
are you aware how dumb that is? you shouldn't be flying a ship because you didn't wait an arbitrary amount of time? The concept of progression is pretty standard in video games. Some games may give you the illusion that you can access level 80 straight away by grinding for it, but the reality is that they have worked it out so that you arrive at that specific piece of content at a certain time. All video games work in this way. Your complaint is equivalent to someone wanting to watch the end of the movie to find out what happens without watching the start or the middle, and then you would probably turn around and wonder why the movie sucked. There is a reason why everything can't be accessed on day one. except everything can be accessed on day one in eve. Yes which is dumb and is generally discouraged. Putting SP onto the market will make new players feel like they need to grind to skip content they are not ready for when they should just be able to enjoy the starting experience as it unfolds through the passive training system. This was touted as one of the advantages of Eve over MMORPGs in all but recent years; what has changed?
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
201
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Posted - 2015.10.17 21:06:49 -
[26] - Quote
BrundleMeth wrote:I remember when they introduced the 24 hour skill queue. People went ballistic, calling it the end of EVE. Then, they went to an unlimited skill queue...and no one said anything. My point is...this new idea...whatever... No everyone was pretty much in favour of the unlimited skill que. Perhaps a couple of people didn't like it but comparing it to the backlash to this idea, the difference is like night and day.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
201
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Posted - 2015.10.17 21:11:27 -
[27] - Quote
The truth is Rise doesn't really know what he is doing when it comes to new player retention and is flailing about now with this idea in an attempt to salvage his failed opportunities idea.
I could have told him the opportunity system wouldn't work, but for some reason he has taken that failure as a green light to put in this poor system. There were a lot of good suggestions in the new player retention thread, I'd suggest going back there and getting ideas from that. There was nothing like this idea that was suggested.
This idea will not make any difference to new player retention, in fact it will most likely have a negative effect.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
202
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Posted - 2015.10.17 21:16:24 -
[28] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Moac Tor wrote:BrundleMeth wrote:I remember when they introduced the 24 hour skill queue. People went ballistic, calling it the end of EVE. Then, they went to an unlimited skill queue...and no one said anything. My point is...this new idea...whatever... No everyone was pretty much in favour of the unlimited skill que. Perhaps a couple of people didn't like it but comparing it to the backlash to this idea, the difference is like night and day. Really, were people that freaked out about the 24 hour skill queue? Seriously? Was there a threadnaught? I misread Brundle's quote earlier. There was no argument about the unlimited skill que. Even the vet players were happy with it. So I'd say that indicates change is well received if it is a good idea.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
204
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Posted - 2015.10.17 21:39:41 -
[29] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Moac Tor wrote:BrundleMeth wrote:I remember when they introduced the 24 hour skill queue. People went ballistic, calling it the end of EVE. Then, they went to an unlimited skill queue...and no one said anything. My point is...this new idea...whatever... No everyone was pretty much in favour of the unlimited skill que. Perhaps a couple of people didn't like it but comparing it to the backlash to this idea, the difference is like night and day. Okay, finally found the Dev Blog thread on the initial 24 hour skill queue and the first page is pretty much supportive. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=989819 There are 25 pages of posts. So, I'm going to guess nope. Most people felt the skill queue was a good idea long over due. Ok interesting. Nice find there. That was a bit before my time by a couple of months so I didn't recollect. So it seems the community is receptive to change then if the change is good.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
204
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Posted - 2015.10.17 21:41:39 -
[30] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:yes, the bazaar does. you find a character with the skills you want - and you purchase it. Like i said your full of ****, sure your not on the payroll so if the character bazaar isn't for buying and selling characters... oh wait. it is. No i said a perfect toon with a skillset of my choice, you just refered me back to the bazaar, like i said before your like a broken record who cannot see what is happening here. because that's the place you go to buy the skillset you want. edit: i mean, you could go to ebay instead but don't cry to me when you get banned. His point is that you can't get a perfect character from the bazaar which you will be able to do so with the neural packets.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
204
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Posted - 2015.10.17 21:47:23 -
[31] - Quote
Dror wrote:Moac Tor wrote:The truth is Rise doesn't really know what he is doing when it comes to new player retention and is flailing about now with this idea in an attempt to salvage his failed opportunities idea.
I could have told him the opportunity system wouldn't work, but for some reason he has taken that failure as a green light to put in this poor system. There were a lot of good suggestions in the new player retention thread, I'd suggest going back there and getting ideas from that. There was nothing like this idea that was suggested.
This idea will not make any difference to new player retention, in fact it will most likely have a negative effect.
I do think Rise is doing this with good intention for new player retention, but the marketing guys are pushing him on with $ in their eyes. There's no reason to pretend that you have the metrics of what effects fresh subs. They have every reason to believe, through scientific research and the game's data, that the motivation to experience the game is much more powerful than anything that can come from limited SP. Feel free to read up on intrinsic vs extrinsic motivation. These have objective commonalities that benefit game design, work ethic, and everything else that comes. Their scientific research and game data hasn't helped them so far. Have you followed the failure which is the opportunities system at all? I wouldn't be so dismissive of common sense opinions from eve players, graphs and statistics can only ever be of limited use.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
207
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Posted - 2015.10.18 11:30:44 -
[32] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Dave Stark wrote:no, it isn't debatable. the cost price to produce a packet is 300m + exctractor at current plex prices. that is what it will cost to produce a packet. there is only one way to produce SP. Nope! Since I'd sub my account anyway to play, the incremental cost for me to produce a packet with my own SP is just the extractor. I didn't buy a PLEX, I didn't sub my account to gain SP. Now, the opportunity cost of extracting my SP instead of training is... let's see... Got it! It's exactly the market price of skill packets!!!If skill packets will go for 100m, anyone will be happy to sell them for 100m, since they can buy them at 100m if they need the SP. Makes sense to you now? When we're talking about a commodity that EVERY PLAYED ACCOUNT can AUTOMATICALLY generate 1.8m a month of, the price and value is just an agreement within the parties. The fact that you COULD, in theory, waste a PLEX a month on an account that you don't need just to generate SP that EVERYBODY in EVE already has as a by-product of them playing the game, is irrelevant. no. that's the price it costs to produce those SP. whether you need them or not doesn't matter. the only way to accumulate SP is to have an active subscription, which isn't free. i understand what you're saying. but just like "minerals i mine are free", "sp i don't need are free" is just as, if not more, stupid.
Gully is correct. Once you reach a certain point in your skill training then you are no longer subbing your account for SP. In fact it is the opposite, you do not require them at all. Also you are missing the biggest reason people sub and use plex, it is not to train SP, it is to be able to play the game. So the pure ISK value of plex cannot be directly correlated to SP gained anyway seeing as that is only a small byproduct of activating the plex.
So I agree with Gully, there will be a massive oversupply of SP and the price will not reflect the price of plex as you are expecting.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
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Posted - 2015.10.18 17:33:18 -
[33] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:So I read an article on the internet and it said something along the lines of, anyone who is against this change is really just projecting their emotional insecurities and are letting their irrationalities manifest themselves because they as people have zero self-control.
But it's OK, because we, the deciders, understand you're incapable of logical thought so we know to just ignore the things you say and write your name down on The List.
Great change CCP, way to take the initiative in saving EvE. *chuckles*
Clutching at straws now here I see.
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Moac Tor
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Posted - 2015.10.18 18:17:26 -
[34] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Tristan Agion wrote: Thanks. Indeed, I think it is highly likely that PLEX prices will drop because of this.
LMFAO you cannot possibly predict this, unless you can search your crystal ball and tell us how many people will pay for SPs with cash and how many will pay with isk. Another aspect is that we don't know how much we are going to have to pay to purchase these nueral extractors. Veteren players are going to be purchasing PLEX to convert to aurum to purcahse them, so for any increase in supply there will also be an direct increase in demand.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
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Posted - 2015.10.18 20:31:34 -
[35] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:BirdStrike wrote:Dave Stark wrote:I'm going to make a better argument against this new proposal than has been seen in the first 165 pages of this thread.
you can use this system to "bypass" prerequisites for ships. you can train the prerequisites for say, command ships, then extract all the leadership SP and still fly them.
there needs to be a check to ensure that you cannot extract sp from skills where you have trained something that requires the skill you are trying to extract. Its already there, look up the dependency requirements for any skill. It lists the pre-requisite skill tree you need to unlock to train those skills with ticks for ones you meet. There are lots of examples where you need more than one skill to use a given/ship module so its trivial for CCP to simply invalidate that skill if you remove the underlying dependency. yep, some one just pointed me to it. Were you not spamming the forum telling everyone that they haven't read or understood the devblog and shouldn't post unitl they do?.....
Ever occur to you to take your own advice? You clearly haven't thought about this as thoroughly as you seem to think.
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Moac Tor
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Posted - 2015.10.19 00:39:08 -
[36] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:M must stand for manipulative cuz we all know you care for no one but yourself and image. Thank you thank you. On that note I am outa here and on an airplane to chat with players and devs and other people in Las Vegas. But since I am not running next year . . . why am I still doing all this, eh? m Well thank you from myself for being one of the active CSMs on this case on posting your thoughts on this forum, I appreciate that.
Was there actually any CSMs who were in favour of this idea, they all seem to be laying low at the moment with only yourself and a couple of others bothering to contribute to the discussions on here.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
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Posted - 2015.10.19 09:52:56 -
[37] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:The feature is intended to allow players to trade resources. Whether that's real-world currency, ISK, or time. It is the same philosophy behind PLEX, and why PLEX is both effective and sustainable over long periods. We don't create a way for players to buy their way to victory. We aren't injecting new SP in to the game. We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want. We all buy into the philosophy that eve is a game of trade and competition as it has been from day one, but do you accept that from the overwhelming negative feedback it is clear that players do not want that philosophy transferred to skill points?
Players have never asked for SP to be tradable, and in fact are overwhelmingly opposed to such an idea.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
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Posted - 2015.10.19 10:06:08 -
[38] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Moac Tor wrote:CCP Terminus wrote:The feature is intended to allow players to trade resources. Whether that's real-world currency, ISK, or time. It is the same philosophy behind PLEX, and why PLEX is both effective and sustainable over long periods. We don't create a way for players to buy their way to victory. We aren't injecting new SP in to the game. We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want. We all buy into the philosophy that eve is a game of trade and competition as it has been from day one, but do you accept that from the overwhelming negative feedback it is clear that players do not want that philosophy transferred to skill points? Players have never asked for SP to be tradable, and in fact are overwhelmingly opposed to such an idea. What? This general idea has to be one of the most commonly requested features on the forum! Possibly just below the old 'remove cloaky camping' request, which I fully expect to be implemented with the new structures. You are confusing the occasional misinformed person asking with the overwhelming majority view of the playerbase.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
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Posted - 2015.10.19 10:24:18 -
[39] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Zappity wrote:Moac Tor wrote:CCP Terminus wrote:The feature is intended to allow players to trade resources. Whether that's real-world currency, ISK, or time. It is the same philosophy behind PLEX, and why PLEX is both effective and sustainable over long periods. We don't create a way for players to buy their way to victory. We aren't injecting new SP in to the game. We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want. We all buy into the philosophy that eve is a game of trade and competition as it has been from day one, but do you accept that from the overwhelming negative feedback it is clear that players do not want that philosophy transferred to skill points? Players have never asked for SP to be tradable, and in fact are overwhelmingly opposed to such an idea. What? This general idea has to be one of the most commonly requested features on the forum! Possibly just below the old 'remove cloaky camping' request, which I fully expect to be implemented with the new structures. You are confusing the occasional misinformed person asking with the overwhelming majority view of the playerbase. It would not be called a 'sacred cow' if it were uncontroversial. But this is one that needs to be turned into a steak. Judging from the feedback in this thread it would seem that your stance on the subject is not shared by the majority of people in this thread and would not be too healthy for subscription numbers.
Yes you could just write this all off as idle threats, but if you are in CCPs position would you want to really risk it and be the one who bought a 12 year old game to its knees just so you can implement this?
Everyone realised that jump fatigue and the sov changes needed to be done, and so despite the negative reactions players stuck with CCP as we knew we could not keep the status quo. This on the other hand is much more dangerous as it all to close to Incarna.
I actually think a lot of players have already let micro transactions slip in through the back door in the form of ship SKINs, a feature that nearly everyone had wanted, but somehow CCP cleverly managed to tie it to microtransactions without much of a fuss from the players. It was explained away at the time that it is fine as ship skins are cosmetic items; this idea on the other hand is going to be different as SPs are far from cosmetic.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
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Posted - 2015.10.19 11:02:52 -
[40] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Zappity wrote:It would not be called a 'sacred cow' if it were uncontroversial. But this is one that needs to be turned into a steak. Judging from the feedback in this thread it would seem that your stance on the subject is not shared by the majority of people in this thread and would not be too healthy for subscription numbers. Yes you could just write this all off as idle threats, but if you are in CCPs position would you want to really risk it and be the one who bought a 12 year old game to its knees just so you can implement this? Everyone realised that jump fatigue and the sov changes needed to be done, and so despite the negative reactions players stuck with CCP as we knew we could not keep the status quo. This on the other hand is much more dangerous as it all to close to Incarna. I actually think a lot of players have already let micro transactions slip in through the back door in the form of ship SKINs, a feature that nearly everyone had wanted, but somehow CCP cleverly managed to tie it to microtransactions without much of a fuss from the players. It was explained away at the time that it is fine as ship skins are cosmetic items; this idea on the other hand is going to be different as SPs are far from cosmetic. Rubbish. People won't quit over this. Why would they? Of course some people will definitely quit over this. The only question would is how many.
You seem to be ignorant or in denial of the opinion in this thread, CCP don't have that same luxury though.
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
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Posted - 2015.10.19 11:34:49 -
[41] - Quote
Even Tippia tried and could not stop him. (but made him look like a fool though)
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
219
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Posted - 2015.10.19 11:44:10 -
[42] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Even Tippia tried and could not stop him. (but made him look like a fool though) It doesn't take Tippia to make him look like a fool and a shill, he's perfectly capable of doing that himself. It's just very entertaining to see him try so hard to avoid answering actual questions while at the same time "not understanding" the problem. The more he posts the more hilarious it is and the harder he tries the more people realise that he is in fact a shill. He'd probably do better if he'd go quiet for a bit and start posting on another char using a slightly different angle. This way is more fun though. True. What I am saying though is if Tippia couldn't shut him up then no one can. So basically just ignore him, or use it for entertainment if you wish.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
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Posted - 2015.10.19 12:34:00 -
[43] - Quote
A serious request, Is there any chance the ISDs could clear out all of the posts made by Dave? We all are aware of his viewpoint, perhaps just leave one of his posts here for historical purposes. It is a drastic move but he has made the thread unreadable for anyone wanting to follow this discussion. It is clear he is simply spamming the thread to shut down all reasonable discussion.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
225
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Posted - 2015.10.19 12:36:40 -
[44] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:Moac Tor wrote:A serious request, Is there any chance the ISDs could clear out all of the posts made by Dave? We all are aware of his viewpoint, perhaps just leave one of his posts here for historical purposes. It is a drastic move but he has made the thread unreadable for anyone wanting to follow this discussion. It is clear he is simply spamming the thread to shut down all reasonable discussion. Report him and see :) Ok done, I am sure he must be breaking at least one of the forum rules.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
225
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Posted - 2015.10.19 12:41:13 -
[45] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Moac Tor wrote:A serious request, Is there any chance the ISDs could clear out all of the posts made by Dave? We all are aware of his viewpoint, perhaps just leave one of his posts here for historical purposes. It is a drastic move but he has made the thread unreadable for anyone wanting to follow this discussion. It is clear he is simply spamming the thread to shut down all reasonable discussion. Report him and see :) please do. i'm interested to see if "being dave stark" is now against the forum rules. So am I. But in all seriousness this is the reason places like redit have become the venue for official feedback, because it is all too easy for one or two people to derail a topic on the eve forums.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
225
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Posted - 2015.10.19 12:48:30 -
[46] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Moac Tor wrote:A serious request, Is there any chance the ISDs could clear out all of the posts made by Dave? We all are aware of his viewpoint, perhaps just leave one of his posts here for historical purposes. It is a drastic move but he has made the thread unreadable for anyone wanting to follow this discussion. It is clear he is simply spamming the thread to shut down all reasonable discussion. Report him and see :) please do. i'm interested to see if "being dave stark" is now against the forum rules. So am I. But in all seriousness this is the reason places like redit have become the venue for official feedback, because it is all too easy for one or two people to derail a topic on the eve forums. yeah, i said exactly that in this thread ages ago. the ability to collapse a string of replies between two people is really nice. the first time i saw it i thought the layout was hideous but it's actually great once you get used to it. Yep the structure of redit is great for discussing things. The problem is a lot of the playerbase don't use redit, and a lot that do probably aren't active subscribers and so don't really care about the long term future of eve.
Like a couple of people mentioned, a lot of them could be old players just looking to cash out using this system and then they can basically play for free on the back of their massive SP pools.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
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Posted - 2015.10.19 12:55:31 -
[47] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Yep the structure of redit is great for discussing things. The problem is a lot of the playerbase don't use redit, and a lot that do probably aren't active subscribers and so don't really care about the long term future of eve.
Like a couple of people mentioned, a lot of them could be old players just looking to cash out using this system and then they can basically play for free on the back of their massive SP pools. from what i've seen it looks like most of the people are active subscribers. it's hard to know for sure, though. if people want to cash out, they already can. sell the character, RMT the isk... or just directly RMT the character. it's not like this idea opens up ways to cash out that weren't already there. It is a lot easier to chop off bits from your main that you don't need anymore than to completely sell your character on the bazaar and start a new one.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
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Posted - 2015.10.19 13:01:30 -
[48] - Quote
Koki Ottic wrote:Moac Tor wrote:A serious request, Is there any chance the ISDs could clear out all of the posts made by Dave? We all are aware of his viewpoint, perhaps just leave one of his posts here for historical purposes. It is a drastic move but he has made the thread unreadable for anyone wanting to follow this discussion. It is clear he is simply spamming the thread to shut down all reasonable discussion. If you click on a users name there is an option to hide post. You can't hide all the posts that quote him in it though. It is an obvious tactic to derail the discussion. Goons have been using it for ages.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
231
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Posted - 2015.10.19 17:55:40 -
[49] - Quote
The more I think about this the more I can think of negative examples of possible side effects. AFK bought up a lot of very good points on how this is really going to open up so many possibilities on the training of alts, eve will become alts online even more so, and they will be one day old alts without any traceable history. I can definitley see why the leaders of PL, goons, and others are so fiercely in favour of this.
Dave this is not going to benefit you at all my friend, and it definitely won't help the new player unless they are willing to splash out loads of real money for PLEX; it will only really benefit the big alliances with loads of ISK to throw around on creating these alts.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
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Posted - 2015.10.19 18:43:22 -
[50] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:ColdBeauty wrote:Moac Tor wrote:I can definitley see why the leaders of PL, goons, and others are so fiercely in favour of this. Exactly what I thought as soon as Elise Randolph went on the charm offensive on reddit and various goons started backing this on the forum. ... It will allow them to bring more people in to the game. How is bringing more people in to the game in any way a negative? There is no way they are going to hand out these skill packets to new players, they'll use them primarily for creating alts for various tasks. It is very efficient to use them up to 50mil SP, with 50mil focused in a specific area you can do a hell of a lot.
This will not help new players at all. Like I said the only new players who will benefit are those that can afford to spend loads of real money on purchasing them.
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Moac Tor
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Posted - 2015.10.19 19:07:52 -
[51] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:ColdBeauty wrote:Moac Tor wrote:I can definitley see why the leaders of PL, goons, and others are so fiercely in favour of this. Exactly what I thought as soon as Elise Randolph went on the charm offensive on reddit and various goons started backing this on the forum. ... It will allow them to bring more people in to the game. How is bringing more people in to the game in any way a negative? There is no way they are going to hand out these skill packets to new players, they'll use them primarily for creating alts for various tasks. It is very efficient to use them up to 50mil SP, with 50mil focused in a specific area you can do a hell of a lot. This will not help new players at all. Like I said the only new players who will benefit are those that can afford to spend loads of real money on purchasing them. How I already said I'm newbie that will benefit from it without any RL money involved. You won't be able to afford them unless you plan on a career in corp theft and scamming. You'll be priced out the market. I've seen it many times, new players coming into the game with wild dreams of being able to PLEX their account and play for free but when reality hits they can barely even scrape together enough to afford their ships let alone a PLEX.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
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Posted - 2015.10.19 20:43:27 -
[52] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Moac Tor wrote: You won't be able to afford them unless you plan on a career in corp theft and scamming. You'll be priced out the market. I've seen it many times, new players coming into the game with wild dreams of being able to PLEX their account and play for free but when reality hits they can barely even scrape together enough to afford their ships let alone a PLEX.
I already did it and having cash on top of that. Only reason why I'm writing here so much and don't playing EVE is traning quee which I can't accselerate. I rather earn some isks and dump them into SP than waiting until training is done. So maybe you need to stop speeking for us all. You should be spending that ISK on ships and having fun. Not grinding FW plexes to try and advance your training que, trust me I've done it and it is boring as heck.
What you don't realise is that we experienced players have been in this for years and we've tried all the ISK making methods to death barring some of the huge alliance level stuff so we are speaking from experience. This is not going to be accessible to you unless you are one of the very small percentage of players who become a successful trader or scammer, or you grind like hell to advance your skill que.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
240
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Posted - 2015.10.19 21:45:43 -
[53] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Moac Tor wrote:General Lootit wrote:Moac Tor wrote: You won't be able to afford them unless you plan on a career in corp theft and scamming. You'll be priced out the market. I've seen it many times, new players coming into the game with wild dreams of being able to PLEX their account and play for free but when reality hits they can barely even scrape together enough to afford their ships let alone a PLEX.
I already did it and having cash on top of that. Only reason why I'm writing here so much and don't playing EVE is traning quee which I can't accselerate. I rather earn some isks and dump them into SP than waiting until training is done. So maybe you need to stop speeking for us all. You should be spending that ISK on ships and having fun. Not grinding FW plexes to try and advance your training que, trust me I've done it and it is boring as heck. What you don't realise is that we experienced players have been in this for years and we've tried all the ISK making methods to death barring some of the huge alliance level stuff so we are speaking from experience. This is not going to be accessible to you unless you are one of the very small percentage of players who become a successful trader or scammer, or you grind like hell to advance your skill que. Agree it's boring like hell. I intend to try combat exploration and thats why I waiting for quee. If your looking at combat exploration then why not try some hacking and data sites whilst you wait. And trust me, hold onto that ISK as you can never have enough ISK in Eve.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
240
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Posted - 2015.10.19 21:53:35 -
[54] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Moac Tor wrote: You won't be able to afford them unless you plan on a career in corp theft and scamming.
Keep selling that, bro. Less competition for the people who will be buying them dirt cheap when 100,000 characters worth of SP packs hit the market in the first week this goes live. You are not a new player. You know this to be true. It's how it always happens when a marketable item is introduced for the first time. It is way overproduced a to the point where you can barely give it away. That is when I'll be doing my buying. Not a month later when they are all hoarded by speculators. Mr Epeen Yes initially you are right the price will be steep drop, and then as the big alliances and speculators start buying them up the price will rise. Lets say as a rough estimate it will drop to 200mil and stabilise at 300mil for 500k, would you advice a new player to grind 300mil (considering how long it will take) for another 500mil SP?
That doesn't sound like a very enjoyable way to play the game in my view.
Instead you could open up more possibilities and options that are available to new players with low skill which is what CCP have been doing.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
241
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Posted - 2015.10.19 22:03:27 -
[55] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Moac Tor wrote:If your looking at combat exploration then why not try some hacking and data sites whilst you wait. And trust me, hold onto that ISK as you can never have enough ISK in Eve. I already tried. If you will convince every newbie which you met in that than of course they will poor as you described. *chuckles* You base your opinion on such limited experience and knowledge, that is not wise.
Ok here is a tip, you can make more ISK from non combat exploration than you can from combat exploration. Research it and find the right places to explore.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
241
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Posted - 2015.10.19 22:10:10 -
[56] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Moac Tor wrote: You won't be able to afford them unless you plan on a career in corp theft and scamming.
Keep selling that, bro. Less competition for the people who will be buying them dirt cheap when 100,000 characters worth of SP packs hit the market in the first week this goes live. You are not a new player. You know this to be true. It's how it always happens when a marketable item is introduced for the first time. It is way overproduced a to the point where you can barely give it away. That is when I'll be doing my buying. Not a month later when they are all hoarded by speculators. Mr Epeen Yes initially you are right the price will be steep drop, and then as the big alliances and speculators start buying them up the price will rise. Lets say as a rough estimate it will drop to 200mil and stabilise at 300mil for 500k, would you advice a new player to grind 300mil (considering how long it will take) for another 500mil SP? That doesn't sound like a very enjoyable way to play the game in my view. Instead you could open up more possibilities and options that are available to new players with low skill which is what CCP have been doing. So much altruistic worry for new players in this thread. Where is that when y'all are laughing at them because they can't earn a PLEX in an hour when they start a thread about the 1.2B price of the things these days? Yet here you are. All concerned because of the trauma grinding 300M will cause them. Possibly driving them out of the game. Just stop this ****. It's unbecoming of even the low standards we've come to expect here in the EVE-O forums. Mr Epeen Believe it or not I do actually take an interest in new players having a good experience. For a start I have recruited newer players myself and taught them the basics. Also it is not altruistic at all, if eve is successful by bringing in new players then the game gets more investment and is more enjoyable for everyone who plays. As a shrewd businessman yourself you should also recognise this.
The reason I am opposed to this idea though isn't just on behalf on newer players, it will be detrimental to everyone.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
247
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Posted - 2015.10.20 09:09:56 -
[57] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Sentient Blade wrote: In a game that is already quite difficult for newer players, and a game seriously struggling with retention, I fear that this will seem as an almost certain pay-to-win barrier that new players feel they must pay, just to get a leg up, and that it will send a bad signal to them. Of course, I know that in EVE there is no true "pay to win" but I do worry about perceptions.
My perception is earn more isk to be less bored from waiting for training quee. So it's encoroug me to paticapate in the game and not waiting offline until quee is done. If you have run out of things to do then that is not the games fault but due to your own lack of imagination, sorry but it is just a weak and childish excuse.
I have always had the opposite situation myself. Of course there are moments when you think I wish I had that skill to level V and such, but I've never been short of goals which I have yet to achieve. Broaden your horizons.
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
247
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Posted - 2015.10.20 09:13:52 -
[58] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:More importantly, you can ensure they're produced at a lower price than if you bought them directly off the market. ok it's early... how? the first thing a renter will do is say "ok you want 5m sp, that's 10 packets, that's 3bn isk to buy. my rent is 3bn per month." followed by "my rent has just gone up by 500m per month, i only used to pay 2.5bn". you don't change the cost of anything, you're just hiking the prices of rental fees. in addition to that you no longer control your rental fees - jita's market does. It would depend very much on how much the skill packets cost, and what the extractors cost. If the prices are extremely high, which they likely would be once the initial flood of massive over-supply had dwindled, then even modest amounts of renter-SP demands would lead to people preferring to pull skills out their own heads rather than bankrupting themselves by buying directly from Jita. It is of course unsustainable if not properly managed, but certain groups in EVE are very skilled at managing such things. Surrendering player skills you're not at-that-moment urgently in need of, to avoid catching heat from some other direction, is something that a lot of people in EVE would feel was a necessary trade off where the alternative was paying a colossal sum of ISK. a SP packet will never cost more than 1/4 plex + extractor cost to produce. ever. it doesn't matter what the market price is. just pull it from an alt's head, there's never a situation where you will *have* to pull it out of your own head and thus your skill progression is never hampered. Your making the mistake again of directly correlating skill packets to PLEX, two completely different things. The price of skill packets will be based on supply and demand, the only think you can guarantee is that it won't go below the cost of the extractor.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
249
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Posted - 2015.10.20 09:48:49 -
[59] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:if supply and demand make SP packets cost more than production costs you can bypass the market entirely and create your own with SP farms of which the barrier to entry is pretty much just "create a new account". And setting up a SP farm requires capital investment and time. If a big alliance buys out all the SP packets for instance then price will spike until demand can catch up. It is what happens in the eve markets all the time already.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
249
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Posted - 2015.10.20 09:59:05 -
[60] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Dave Stark wrote:if supply and demand make SP packets cost more than production costs you can bypass the market entirely and create your own with SP farms of which the barrier to entry is pretty much just "create a new account". And setting up a SP farm requires capital investment and time. If a big alliance buys out all the SP packets for instance then price will spike until demand can catch up. It is what happens in the eve markets all the time already. by setting up an SP farm takes, as i said, a little over two months probably three. with power of 2 getting to the point where that farm is functional is essentially "free" if i have my prices/duration on power of 2 correct (been a while since i made a new alt). buying out all the sp packets is irrelevant - you're bypassing the market by setting up your own farm anyway. you're acting like large alliances are intentionally going to try and not get paid and destroy their own rental empires - which in itself is illogical as all hell. I'm not talking about rental empires. I don't think they'll ask for SP in payment anyway, although the inhabitants could feel pressured into converting their own SP to ISK for payment though if they don't have enough liquid ISK to hand. But I couldn't care less about renters anyway.
I'm just pulling you up on the mistake you made when you asserted than skill packets could never go higher in price than the cost of 1/4 PLEX plus an extractor. You would be right if you said that SP packets should never stabilise above 1/4 plex + extractor, but markets spike and decline all the time so they could easily go over that price for a period of time until demand can catch up.
Personally I think there would be oversupply anyway especially during the initial stages.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
250
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Posted - 2015.10.20 11:09:16 -
[61] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Any decision CCP? It's nice talking to Dave but I think it's time to show us what's your opinion about it. Another 200 pages won't make any difference here. Well I am guessing this discussion didn't go as they had expected, so they are probably trying to work out how they can dig themselves out of this hole now. Also I wouldn't expect any confirmation until after vegas.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
250
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Posted - 2015.10.20 15:48:12 -
[62] - Quote
knowsitall wrote:While i agree with the "problems" of the character bazaar.
Better if people could change names, remove employment history, even reset all standing......
There has always been the thing about, you can do what you want in Eve but there is CONSEQUENCES.
This to me goes against this. Consequences don't exist in a world of REDOs. this is not a one player game, this is a PERSISTENT world, there is no save and load, when you do something it is part of the history Eve, no matter how small.
Above being said this is still a game and not real live. No redos in real live, but there are second chances.
Allowing people to change name, restart employment history, and even reset standings can all be lored away as bribery or neural behavior correction (Clockwork Orange style).
So to fix the issues in the Dev Blog said i say No to SP for Aurum regardless of the source, even at a bad exchange rate. To me just benefits ISK rich vets, allowing them to respec to the any new meta for the cost of a X number of isk. This is making the mistake Titans were before the changes that they are so expensive that that is barrier to entry. ISK cost is never a barrier to entry, as a vet myself i basically don't grind isk anymore. Why don't i grind isk, because i have ENOUGH. If i suddenly have a reason to have lots more isk i will just grind that isk, at a much better isk/hr rate than a newer player.
Back to a proposed solution of change names, remove employment history, faction standing i really don't think matter (especially since the scrapping of standing for high sec anchoring 0 which i agreed with). So you could have a Neural correction entry then everything below that is in a folder that opens up if people really want to dig down, but it shows that PLEX/Aurum was paid to change this. Even security status hardly matter now you can buy it for Tags.
This is something I had also suggested instead. I have always thought it would fit in well with a sci fi world full of clones and high tech biological procedures that for the right price you could remove or alter these details. You can change your face and appearance and even transfer conciousness to another body, but that you can't change your name seems a little silly.
Yes it could be exploitable but much less so than this current proposal, and also it should come at a cost which would reduce exploitation. I'd suggest that cost is 25% reduction in total SP for that character.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
250
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Posted - 2015.10.20 15:50:01 -
[63] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Waited a bit before bothering to look, can't see any issues You know as well as I do Drac that this will be exploited to hell by goons and PL and won't be to the benefit of new players.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
250
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Posted - 2015.10.20 16:35:43 -
[64] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Waited a bit before bothering to look, can't see any issues You know as well as I do Drac that this will be exploited to hell by goons and PL and won't be to the benefit of new players. Everything will get exploited by people like Goons and PL, its their nature. It will certainly make assessing threat levels by past killboard history a bit hit and miss which will make it easier for them, but still I see the 6 month to 2 year old players as the most likely to quit, so this may help... I think that is the intention but I can't see it helping them. The big money players will use this to create alts on a whim and prices will be driven above what a new player can realistically grind for.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
259
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Posted - 2015.10.21 10:17:22 -
[65] - Quote
I think if CCP want to implement this then they should be straight.
All SP should be accumulated into a unallocated pool for each subbed account. This SP can then be distributed between characters on that account or sold onto the market.
This is the logical conclusion to the current direction this idea takes us.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
259
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Posted - 2015.10.21 10:54:45 -
[66] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:not really, i still wouldn't use eve-o as much as reddit. Is it possible to use reddit any more than your useing eve-o atm?
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
262
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Posted - 2015.10.21 18:19:44 -
[67] - Quote
Ok. Instead of the car crash of an idea being proposed, I suggest this much better idea.
We use cerebral enhancers which can ideally be found in game (or if CCP really need the revenue stream bought for Aurum).
Proposal
Cerebral enhancers come in the 2 variations below:
Standard Enhancer increases SP gain by 100% for 7 days. Estimated market price - 1/8 Plex (150m)
Advanced Enhancer increases SP gain by 150% for 7 days. Estimated market price - 1/4 Plex (300m)
The effect of the enhancer is modified based upon the SP total of the character it is used upon.
0 GÇô 10 million skillpoints = 100% effect (150% increased training speed - 6750 SP hour max - with advanced enhancer) 10 - 25 million skillpoints = 75% effect (112.5% increased training speed - 5737.5 SP hour max - with advanced enhancer) 25 - 50 million skillpoints = 50% effect (75% increased training speed - 4725 SP hour max - with advanced enhancer) 50 GÇô 80 million skillpoints = 25% effect (37.5% increased training speed - 3712.5 SP hour max - with advanced enhancer) 80 + million skillpoints = 20% effect (30% increased training speed - 3510 SP hour max - with advanced enhancer)
Under the numbers given the standard enhancer (which is the best value for money / ISK) would be equivalent in terms of value to dual character training for a character between 25m - 50m skill points. Over 50m and this benefit is halved, and under 25m and the benefit is up to double to help newer players.
Benefits
- Would allow newer players who wish to grind or pay for these enhancers the possibility to do so, without them being completely overpriced due to the diminishing returns. (5x more effective for a character under 10mil SP)
- Is heavily weighted in favour of the new player, although still pretty useful for a character of any skill level.
- It won't be as powerful a tool as instantly being able to skill up using unallocated SP would have been; this therefore removes a lot of the opportunities for meta gaming and exploits.
- Won't lead to the abomination which would be be SP farms, and won't allow highly skilled characters to profiteer by selling their SP to newbies.
- Doesn't remove consequences for the skill training path you chose (you chose to be a miner, sorry you can't instantly allocate all the SP into combat, actions have consequences)
I can't really see any negative to this apart from the fact it is introducing a grind for SP particularly for new players, but it seems this might be what they want and will keep them subbed.
Suggestion for a rebalance of ECM - Modulated ECM Effects
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
264
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Posted - 2015.10.21 19:57:10 -
[68] - Quote
Havenard wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Ok. Instead of the car crash of an idea being proposed, I suggest this much better idea. We use cerebral enhancers which can ideally be found in game (or if CCP really need the revenue stream bought for Aurum). ProposalCerebral enhancers come in the 2 variations below: Standard Enhancerincreases SP gain by 100% for 7 days. Estimated market price - 1/8 Plex (150m) Advanced Enhancerincreases SP gain by 150% for 7 days. Estimated market price - 1/4 Plex (300m) The effect of the enhancer is modified based upon the SP total of the character it is used upon. 0 GÇô 10 million skillpoints = 100% effect (150% increased training speed - 6750 SP hour max)10 - 25 million skillpoints = 75% effect (112.5% increased training speed - 5737.5 SP hour max)25 - 50 million skillpoints = 50% effect (75% increased training speed - 4725 SP hour max)50 GÇô 80 million skillpoints = 25% effect (37.5% increased training speed - 3712.5 SP hour max)80 + million skillpoints = 20% effect (30% increased training speed - 3510 SP hour max)Under the numbers given the standard enhancer (which is the best value for money / ISK) would be equivalent in terms of value to dual character training for a character between 25m - 50m skill points. Over 50m and this benefit is halved, and under 25m and the benefit is up to double to help newer players. Benefits
- Would allow newer players who wish to grind or pay for these enhancers the possibility to do so, without them being completely overpriced due to the diminishing returns. (5x more effective for a character under 10mil SP)
- Is heavily weighted in favour of the new player, although still pretty useful for a character of any skill level.
- It won't be as powerful a tool as instantly being able to skill up using unallocated SP would have been; this therefore removes a lot of the opportunities for meta gaming and exploits.
- Won't lead to the abomination which would be be SP farms, and won't allow highly skilled characters to profiteer by selling their SP to newbies.
- Doesn't remove consequences for the skill training path you chose (you chose to be a miner, sorry you can't instantly allocate all the SP into combat, actions have consequences)
I can't really see any negative to this apart from the fact it is introducing a grind for SP particularly for new players, but it seems this might be what they want and will keep them subbed. This looks excellent. I always thought there should be a way to increase your training speed if you are willing to spend more, like activating a second PLEX to train faster. Something like this should definitively be implemented. It doesn't target though, the character bazaar problem. There will always be people willing to get rid of characters they don't use anymore. As it was mentioned, CCP don't want a character bazaar to exist, but if they don't provide one, people simply trade using their own ways. In violation of the EULA, but still. I am glad you like the suggestion. I think with the level of enhancement a new player can get from the proposal above, and also due to the fact that with a focused skill plan you can get a very solid character for 10mil - 25mil SP, it would cut down a lot of reason for new players to even use the bazaar. That being said the bazaar will still have a place mainly for capital and highly specialised characters.
I have posted this idea in F&I forums, and so If you like the idea please up vote or put a comment in this thread.
Alternative to Skill Trading
If enough people show an interest then CCP may take some notice and rethink their current plan.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
266
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Posted - 2015.10.22 11:49:40 -
[69] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Dynamus Deckerman wrote:Add Pay2Win, and this enthusiasm will vanish which will probably lead me into unsubbing also.
Today I re-subbed only because I want to support this idea. It will be your choice. We already figured out that it's not a pay2win feature because experience>skill points in PVP. I've been ignoring your drivel for some time now as it is obvious you are a troll and do not speak for new players at all.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
269
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Posted - 2015.10.25 17:35:07 -
[70] - Quote
During the Vegas keynote Seagull mentioned that this is an idea in which she feels will benefit the game, but also understood that this is a fundamental change to the game and so asked the playerbase for feedback / suggestions on how to go forward. With this in mind after some time to fully reflect on the consequences of the change, I offer the following constructive suggestions and criticisms of the proposal below.
A lot of the problems with the proposed system have been listed in detail already, but in summary the most game breaking issues are the three below.
1. There is massive room for exploitation with this proposal, big alliances with lots of disposable ISK will be able to instantly train up an alt (and do this very effectively up to 50million SP). On reflection the main issue I have with this is that it is instant, that will make it completely overpowered and exploitable for many of the reasons already detailed.
2. The proposal creates the concept of SP farms, and allows veteran players with lots of spare SP or ISK to setup these farms to milk as much ISK as they can out of it. Also this is passive income which is something that CCP has been trying to remove from the game, and worst off it is passive income with absolutely no effort required to set it up or defend.
3. The proposal will introduce a grind for SP. I have nothing against a small amount of grinding, but the problem with this is that it introduces the prospect of completely unlimited grinding, you can just continually buy more skill packets. This will not be fun in terms of gameplay as you will miss out on a lot of the more niche aspects of eve, things which you pull off with the tools you have available. So instead of being creative and exploring the possibilities in eve and overcoming odds with knowledge and skill, the main option will be to grind more SP to keep up. There will be no excuse now for not being able to fly the doctrine or perfectly fit ships, if you can't then you will be told to go and grind SP and come back later. This in turn makes the game less fun.
So hopefully that answers a lot of the people who cannot understand why people are against this idea. That is three very clear and objective points.
SOLUTION
I do think we have to accept that there are certain aspects of the game which CCP wants to change, after all the game needs to progress. I can understand that CCP wants the skill system to be less unforgiving, and more easy for new players to get into and advance along. These are reasonable goals, although they do not require the currently proposed method with all of its drawbacks. So instead I propose the two approaches below.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
271
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Posted - 2015.10.25 17:35:53 -
[71] - Quote
Skill Remapping
I have always been against this, but if this will help newer players by making the skill system less unforgiving, then upon reflection if it is implemented in a moderate way then it shouldn't be too bad. So here is my suggestion.
You buy a Neural Modifier from the market (or Aurum store) which comes in the types below; Basic Neural Modifier - allows character to reallocate up to 3m SP - cost 1 PLEX. Enhanced Neural Modifier - allows character to reallocate up to 5m SP - costs 2 PLEX.
To stop the kind of exploitation you get with skill trading the reallocation process would have a cool-down period of one year. You could reallocate during the cool-down period although you will get diminishing returns. So in practice the reallocation would only confers the full benefit if you wait for one year after the previous reallocation. If you reallocate for instance 6 months after the last reallocation (50% of the cool-down period) then you would get 50% of the benefit (1.5m or 2.5m SP).
And to make the skill system even less unforgiving for newer players (and due to the malleability of a new player's brain) they would have the opportunity to reallocate their SP more freely during their initial stages. As a result all new characters would come with 2 free Neural Modifications which would allow them to reallocate 2m SP each time for no cost and with no cool-down (this would be fixed to the character and could not be traded).
I believe this would make the skill system less unforgiving which would achieve some of CCPs goals without introducing the grind and possibility of exploitation that would come with skill trading.
Cerebral Enhancers Another of the issues that CCP mentioned was that newer players were quitting because they didn't feel as though they could speed up their progress. I think this is also a fair point and newer players should be able to speed things up to some degree, although very importantly they should not be able to just completely skip straight to 50m SP if they have the cash. The exception to this is obviously the character bazaar. With another method in place to speed up skill training though I believe newer players would not feel so inclined to take the jump and buy a character from the bazaar, this is good as I don't believe that using the CB is a good gameplay experience for a new player (and usually doesn't end well). I see the CB as more of a tool for advanced players and a lot of new players will be catered for by the proposal below.
Cerebral enhancers would come in the 2 variations below:
Standard Enhancer increases SP gain by 100% for 7 days. Estimated market price - 1/8 Plex (150m)
Advanced Enhancer increases SP gain by 150% for 7 days. Estimated market price - 1/4 Plex (300m)
The effect of the enhancer is modified based upon the SP total of the character it is used upon.
0 GÇô 10 million skillpoints = 100% effect (150% increased training speed - 6750 SP hour max) 10 - 25 million skillpoints = 75% effect (112.5% increased training speed - 5737.5 SP hour max) 25 - 50 million skillpoints = 50% effect (75% increased training speed - 4725 SP hour max) 50 GÇô 80 million skillpoints = 25% effect (37.5% increased training speed - 3712.5 SP hour max) 80 + million skillpoints = 20% effect (30% increased training speed - 3510 SP hour max)
Using cerebral enhancers which heavily benefit newer players over older players would mean that if newer players choose to do so then they could speed up their skill training for a reasonable cost (both in game and through plex). As this is not as exploitable as instant unallocated SP, I don't see this being quite as desirable to veteren players (particularly considering they benefit they would get is only 1/5 of that which a new player would get), and as a result the market would reflect a price that is attainable to a new character.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
271
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Posted - 2015.10.25 18:01:24 -
[72] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Not a fan of the remaps but I could live with the second idea in some form. I'd want a hard cap on enhancers use though and make them player created in game in some form that it is more useful for new players to produce them rather than vets farming them. This would give new players more investment in the game, would allow them to produce them by themselves as an introduction to manufacture and exploration. New players could then sell them for isk if they are patient to wait on the skill queue or just eat them like smarties if not.
ED: I also firmly believe that new players would find importable skill queues invaluable. CCP could create basic combat, explo, indy ones and corps could produce more tailored ones to entice new folks. I've never been a fan of remaps myself, but if CCP are saying they have factual evidence to believe that this is hurting the long term health of the game then I am willing to reconsider. The most important part is that this should be implemented in a limited form, like you say perhaps impose hard caps. With any changes CCP makes they should be slow and gradual, and should not destroy the essence of the game.
Also ideally I'd like everything to be player made (including ship skins), although I understand if CCP needs revenue from these micro-transactions as long as it doesn't get out of control. I wouldn't like to see it go any further than what I proposed above, and ideally if they could revert ship skins to being player made as a trade then that would suit me.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
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