For people quitting in protest I remind them that Operation Magic School Bus does accept donations to help out the new players. Yes, this is a 'can I haz' post but it is one where the material will be put to good use, not just lining a wallet or hanger. Contract to me if you wish to donate.

m

Because the game seemed to be consistent. So it looked like it was worth putting in effort. By changing that, CCP sends a message to the player base that when it comes to money there is no consistency. It`s all about the benjamins babe. Problem is that they can only see short term yield of money and fail to foresee what will happen in the long run.

Not everyone will quit because of it, it is not going to break a game imediatelly but it will surely make some people quit immediately and others to drop long term plans for the game as they cannot lean on it. So, yes more and more people will quit, causing less and less money for ccp and in the end the servers are going to die...

Proof of your statement can be seen in the drop of activity in the recruitment channels over the years. It used to scroll by faster than you could read it. Now, it barely moves.

What line are they crossing here that hasn't already been crossed?

so, your issue is what exactly? that it's a paid service, or you can have as much sp as you want? what exactly is the grip here?

we know how the system works, there's a whole devblog telling us that.

oh look, a condescending insult rather than a legitimate point.

all you've done is whine that people can use the system - you've yet to point out why using this new system is an issue,

so you think the numbers are way off, and object to it being a paid service because it's all automated.

then what numbers should be used?

If it was a done deal we'd have put the dev blog out when it was going to be shipped. The whole point of the dev blog is to gather feedback and assess.

CCP is a company, not a product and it is the goal of any company to outlive any one product they create. If a company relies on a single product for the entirety of their revenue, this is not possible. At some point the product will be replaced, even one as long lived as EVE Online. If that's the only thing making us money, the company collapses at that point and a lot of people lose their jobs.

While I don't see EVE going anywhere any time soon, it makes perfect sense to branch out in to other projects, to hedge bets against the future. The current projects in the works like Valkyrie have a lot of promise and hype, while at the same time having a much smaller development budget that EVE does right now.

Any losses incurred from past projects are already taken care of. This new feature is not being developed to compensate for them.


Speaking of which, there's been quite a few questions as to why the feature is being developed? What players are the target for this feature? I think it's fairly clearly described in the dev blog here:

"By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone. Whether youGÇÖre an older player who would rather have ISK than those mining skills you donGÇÖt use any more, a clever new player looking to invest your fortune into your character, a Corp leader trying to move everyone into a new doctrine or someone like me who just realized that they would rather fly ArmageddonGÇÖs than Stilettos, this feature has you covered. This all fits nicely to our overall game design philosophy of giving you control over your experience through cooperation and competition with each other."

The feature is intended to allow players to trade resources. Whether that's real-world currency, ISK, or time. It is the same philosophy behind PLEX, and why PLEX is both effective and sustainable over long periods. We don't create a way for players to buy their way to victory. We aren't injecting new SP in to the game. We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want.

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jun/05/world-of-darkness-the-inside-story-mmo-ccp-white-wolf

If even 50% of said is truth, I think we can understand where does the change come from. And I am not referring to the need for money, but to chaotic organisation and no clear vision.

Time to funny thing. EVE forum was blocked in my country because of boosters(drugs) discussion on it.

Then perhaps it has nothing to do with any fundamental flaws of the MMO genre whether its Grind - Skillpoints - repetitiveness but that there is now such a vast amount of free 2 play games - FPS / MMO / MOBA / Early access that the subscription model itself is now an out going trend with such diversity albeit that there is actually no such thing as free2play in reality.

If revenue is the issue, then there are less disruptive solutions. Lets imagine, for example, that you need to buy books with AUR. That is far less ripe for abuse than SP market. It's not a system you can farm for power leveling. It's not a system you can farm for instant alts. It doesn't devalue effort and patience that players put into their characters. It's not an easy passive income. It doesn't decouple in-game choices from consequences. If you were to remove basic books from the system (say core skills and some t1 ships & modules) you could shield (to some extent) new players from such microtransactions. It's not something I would be happy to see implemented. But it is a system I possibly could live with, unlike the all-out proposal from the blog.

You can also grind ISK. If you tie books to AUR then every book is a revenue.

yes, you are wrong!
did it cross your mind even for a second that what is was "hard" for you then, it's 2x3x harder for a new player today?
ofc not, but let's talk about good old times... when a new player could join a main alliance op in what, a month? how many corps had recruiting req like hac/recon/t3 lvl5? the main fleets where t1 bs, and no one was bitching at you for bringing a t1 fitted bs, and you knew ballance passes where like years between...
and, about all that "hard" training, do you also forget to add how t3 ships for ex, where not even in game then, and we trained for them one at a time as they where released...

now? a new player need to train hac/recon/logi/t3 like yesterday; and most of the time when they finish trainig for whatever flavor of the month ship alliances are using, boom! CCP drop the nerfhammer, and huh, you need to start training towards another ship, all over again...
it's easy for someone like you to say "heh they don't need a quick fix" when you can switch from one doctrine to another in the same day, isn't it?
is it that hard for you guys to comprehend that 10-12 years of training skill it's a major advantage for "vets" and at the same time a huge handicap for a new player?
you already have huge advantages in sp/exp/isk/ stuff over a new player, is it that hard for you to accept that they need a bit of "support" till they reach a comfort zone of about 10/15/20 mil sps? and not free support, they will have to buy it from olders players with isk ! how risk adverse can you bee?

As far as im concerned about your personal issues with the skillpoint system take it up with CCP.

Fact: Over a decade, not the full 12 years for the most part there has been very few issues with the skill system in place with EvE The subs based continued to grow steadily, until 18 months or so which indicates that something in game altered people perception, what who knows, Fozziesov - Jump fatigue ?

As already stated numerous times, CCP does have a problem with fixing things that don't really need fixing !!

Nobody finds this lack of flexibility appealing, and CCP knows that. Thats why they constantly propose changes that hopefully make the game more fun to everyone.

Not every consequence have to be lived with, if you buy a car and its not what you expect, sell it. You are not bound to it for eternity. Even vasectomy can be reversed.

Specially talking about a game, where we are supposed to find entertainment, stress releavement, having means to mend your bad choices is essential for the satisfaction of the players.

CCP have removed the need to upgrade clones out of respect for our SP, they have removed the need to have a registered account from many skills out of respect for new players that wanted to have a full EVE experience on trial, they increased trial from 14 to 30 days, lastly they gave us 400k start SP so we start with enough core skills to actually feel the game, and now they want to offer us means to repair bad training choices.

To me, this is all one single line of thought, and everything they did so far on that line has been widely welcomed by everyone despite the concerns of bigots who fear the unknown.

I will admit upfront that I have not read 175 pages of forum posts. I have read the first few and understand the concept.

I agree that there is a wide enough player base to seek a way to skill up quicker than the +5's and this has been further supported by the appetite of the +10s in the current Blood Raiders stuff (hell I know I'm out looking for them!)

People who are new want to skill up quicker to either compete or play with their friends. There is general agreement that skilling up a new guy too quick is detrimental to their retention and possibly putting them into things too soon, before they are 'competent'.

People with alts that they just wanna get to their intended purpose (mining fleet, traders, etc etc etc). Currently the only real means, is via purchasing a character - which I like.

Then finally people with a desire to switch paths, or races without too much hassle.

I think all three groups should be supported in their desire to skill up. I do not like that 'pay' to skill (yes I know we can buy characters atm). I think it moves Eve closer to what other games allow. This may be good, we may be able to draw upon their market? I do not believe that these people are not suited to the game - they may leave...they may not. We do know they will grow/mature and that is where Eve seems to pickup its gamers - the mature guys/gals that have played a few other things.

So my idea, universities! Why not have selected stations, or agents - that once a set standing has been increased you can enroll in a set course. The means in which is implemented is up to the devs, but whilst you are docked in said system, certain skills will train faster. These could be race based (Caldari Universities that help you train their hulls, missiles, shields, etc) or they could be attribute based (a military college boosting endurance or willpower?).

I see people being forced to 'grind' up status, to enroll in certain classes. This ensures new bros aren't just plonking into the station and walking away. There perhaps could be various levels, depending on your status. It would help people on long absences and even just whilst you sleep. There could be an ISK/day cost associated with it and perhaps it could be recorded on the characters info sheet, to help people 'identify' that some one may be more skilled than they are 'old'.

o7

Tupac

I'm not the one failing to bring up a good reason. You try to point many ways this could negatively affect EVE, but all I see is irrational fear, people picturing scenarios that are far from realistic, implying this will only benefict veteran players, implying every rich player in EVE will spend all their money to absorb the collective SP of everyone else as if this was a Agar.io match.

Wake the f*ck up. Nobody is going to trade their hard earned SP for crumbs and go back to flying Ventures, new players want SP too, many will use the system only to redistribute their own SP without giving it to anyone else, and the diminishing returns makes the whole deal a bazilian times more interesting to newbros than veterans, not only because they get up to 10 times more SP, but also because 50k SP to veterans don't help with sh*t.

When I first saw the post I had my concerns too, but I gave thought to the subject and consolidated a rational opinion. You should do that too. Take the benefics in consideration, not only what you think that could go wrong. Try to see the whole picture, and stop entertaining scenarios that are clearly fantasious.

You sound just like those guys saying that letting Carriers use gates would ruin nullsec, making clones free would only benefict gankers, and giving 400k SP for new chars would only benefict bots... you just can't let go of your pessimism.

Now while giving SP on missions would be cool, it doesn't address the problems they are trying to solve with this system.

Why would this "annoy and demoralise" core players? If "instant gratification" players flood into EVE, boost their characters with SP packets, fly around cluelessly in bling ships, and get blown to pieces over and over again until they leave - just what exactly is the problem?

Is it that you cannot handle the entertainment? Is it that you cannot stand CCP making money? Are you opposed to having large numbers of logins showing in your launcher window?

If there are players who cannot deal with EVE in the long run, but who through this feature will spend tons of cash on this game in the ultimately mistaken idea that they can pay to win - then how please is that not great for everybody but them?

As you say, they will be gone sooner or later anyway. But this will make them leave later, and in the meantime they pay CCP's server bills and provide you with endless hours of pew-pew entertainment (and a source for ISK, those skill packets and bling ships have to come from somewhere).

The supposed influx of EVE-incompatible players is at worst irrelevant, at best highly beneficial to everybody else. There is only one thing that is worth discussing here as far as core play goes:

This feature would ultimately increase the number of "up to about 30M SP" players and alts in game, and I mean players and alts that are EVE-compatible enough to be around for quite some time. Furthermore, these players and alts would have their SP "better tuned" to specific aims. So basically, you will get an increase in low to medium, but properly, SP-trained players in EVE.

Now, are you for that or against that, as far as "core play" goes? I have a hard time seeing how this can negatively affect vets, unless perhaps if they have grown accustomed to shooting low SP fish in a space barrel.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6100535#post6100535

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6101499#post6101499

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6107198#post6107198

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6107200#post6107200

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6107202#post6107202


First one was mostly sarcasm, I did not realize how serious CCP is about this. Then I started writing my concerns with more details :)

You do not have to invalidate them. Maybe you will come up with one counter argument which would make me change a part of my opinion. Then someone else comes up with another etc and then you get me to support this. Until someone does it I am strongly against it for the reasons I have mentioned but I am not here with "divine truth" which cannot be changed if proper arguments are brought up. Or maybe you will get another point of view on the subject as well. I have to warn you, it`s a long read :)

Let me.
Some of them want to abuse you
Some of them want to be abused.

Sweet dreams are made of this
Who am I to disagree?

I love this idea! I am a new player who recently resubbed after quitting after only a couple months. This might actually keep me in the game. When I look at how long I will have to train to be viable in pvp it seems hopeless. If I try to pve I get insulted or ganked. The biggest problem this game has is its community. Everyone says they want to help noobs but you call us Care Bears gank us while mining or steal our stuff in missions. It seems like the only reason the older players want newer players is to kill them most older players who act like they are good at this game only take fights with weaker players. The old guard needs to be shaken up in this game. Most of the map is empty because coalitions control 100x more space then they need. Why would any new player stay in this game if they know that no matter how hard they work they will never be able to compete with a 5 year character.

I think this could actually draw new players

I have removed some troll replies and those quoting them.

I hate to say it, but the biggest troll in this thread is by far CCP that posts a dev-blog like this, then doesnt reply to a single one of the concerned replys in here.
(starting to think you might have given them a forumban due to making your workload 10x worse )

I want to use the forum you're using with the 4 years of constructive posts. The one I've been using has had this same level of response to just about anything someone didn't like.

And most of this thread hasn't been dialogue-worthy IMHO. I wouldn't want to engage in conversation with the blatantly accusatory tone here and don't envy those that try.

I hope it does go free to play, the amount of new players that would bring would be amazing.

Yes, clearly the only difference between Dust and EVE, and therefore the only reason for a difference in population, is the payment model.

That's not to say I agree one way or the other on how well EVE would handle a F2P transition, merely that I think that particular argument is silly at best.

Well, if Eve Online ever does become 'free to play' then, going by the number of people who play DUST (I mean no disrespect to either of them) we will have to donate PLEX to CCP so that they can feed themselves and their families.

For your sake, I hope you are trolling.

Sarcasm on the internet is tricky. I interpreted your post to mean you thought f2p would massively slash the population - the exact opposite of what you were replying to - rather than merely have a lesser effect as you apparently meant.