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ECM Rebalance

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Azazel The Misanthrope Proioxis Assault Force Exodus. 103	Posted - 2015.10.18 03:21:31 - [1] - Quote I suggest to change the application of jams so that ECM loses effectiveness overtime; rather than encouraging players to bring jams onto the field and jam targets permanently the goal should be to encourage players to use their jams wisely, more tactically, waiting for an opportune time to jam the target like attempting to help an ally escape, making that ambush all the more effective. Sensor strength in this scenario would play a less arbitrary or coin flip role of preventing jams. Instead ships would build up resistance to the jamming; which would allow them to overcome its effects entirely after enough time has elapsed. How much time it would take for a ship to resist the effect of the jam would correlate to its sensor strength with higher values breaking ECM faster. After a ship has overcome the jamming it will remain invulnerable to further attempted jams from the same ship for a period of time of an inversely related to the strength of the ECM that was used on the targeted ship. For example, a larger, more powerful ECM would have the target jammed for longer, but leave it invulnerable to jamming longer once the ECM had been successfully resisted; however, a smaller ECM would be easier to break, but have an equally small cooldown before the ECM was of any use again. I am not entirely sure on the mathematics of this, but the goal is to have ECM have a depreciating chance of success for every cycle that the target remains jammed until they eventually can not jam them anymore, for an allotted period of time. Not exactly a solid proposal, but a theory that could encourage more interesting usage of ECM.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2673	Posted - 2015.10.18 04:56:14 - [2] - Quote I don't think it should become invulnerable to jams, jamming ships shouldn't be unfairly penalized in long-term battles. Perhaps a ship's sensor strength could increase by 10% upon being successfully jammed, an effect lasting for a given amount of time, say, 2 minutes. It would stack with diminishing return up to 50% maximum (that really is a lot when it comes to jam chance, unless you're in a Marauder) by way of increasing by 20% of the remaining ceiling with each stack. If the ship remains unjammed for this time, the effect ends and its sensor strength drops back to normal. So for instance, a battleship with 20 sensor strength, its sensor strength would increase each time it gets jammed: 0 - 20 1 - 22 2 - 23.6 3 - 24.88 4 - 25.9 5 - 26.72 What do you think of the idea of having max locked targets as discrete units, and having ECM jammers have a separate chance to jam each one? If the targeting units you are using get jammed, your target lock breaks but if you have other unjammed targeting units, you can immediately re-lock. This way, someone using weak jams against you has some effect other than a lottery card chance of actually jamming you, while a ship using strong jams on you can really hamper you but you may still barely be able to operate. Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
Azazel The Misanthrope Proioxis Assault Force Exodus. 105	Posted - 2015.10.18 07:33:09 - [3] - Quote Reaver Glitterstim wrote: What do you think of the idea of having max locked targets as discrete units, and having ECM jammers have a separate chance to jam each one? If the targeting units you are using get jammed, your target lock breaks but if you have other unjammed targeting units, you can immediately re-lock. This way, someone using weak jams against you has some effect other than a lottery card chance of actually jamming you, while a ship using strong jams on you can really hamper you but you may still barely be able to operate. Deud you honestly have me beat every time you post something. Elaborate further on the max locked targets and separate chances to jam. The wording on those isn't too precisely conveying your meaning to me.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2674	Posted - 2015.10.18 07:44:03 - [4] - Quote Azazel The Misanthrope wrote: Deud you honestly have me beat every time you post something. Elaborate further on the max locked targets and separate chances to jam. The wording on those isn't too precisely conveying your meaning to me. It's a simple concept that I find difficult to explain with words. I wish I had an animation to demonstrate it. Here's my original proposal: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=393483 It has a lot more detail. Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
Azazel The Misanthrope Proioxis Assault Force Exodus. 105	Posted - 2015.10.18 07:59:57 - [5] - Quote Ok, I can understand this, but aren't you essentially (with what you have described) reducing the maximum amount of target locks that the victim can have by 1? Of course with the potential to disrupt a lock that has already been obtained, but generally speaking. The concern that I have with this is that, currently, "rainbow fitting" ECM is a meta necessity to the class of ECM. With this style of fitting wouldn't the number of locks available be sharply decreased form your projections? Seeing as the ECM ship is not always going to have the necessary racial jam for the appropriate ship all of the time at least not enough. Hypothetically speaking, if the ECM ship (griffin) had 1 jammer of every racial variant, and a Svipul showed up, he would have less capability to jam the target than your projections since 3/4 of his jams would have a lower capacity to effect the Svipul?
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2674	Posted - 2015.10.18 08:15:54 - [6] - Quote Azazel The Misanthrope wrote: Ok, I can understand this, but aren't you essentially (with what you have described) reducing the maximum amount of target locks that the victim can have by 1? No, you can jam out several of their locks. The more target locks they have, and the higher your jam chance, the more locks you jam out. For instance, if you have a 50% jam chance against a ship with 2 locks, you'll average one lock jammed. But if you have a 50% jam chance against a ship with 10 locks, you'll average 5 locks jammed. Racial ECM jammers still matter, they have a higher jam chance against the right ships and thus will jam out a larger percentage of the ship's target locks. Ultimately the ECM ship is trying to completely jam the target, but it's difficult to do without focusing multiple jams on them. Often it can be better to just spread the jams out to multiple targets--but you don't want too few jams on a target because it might not really hurt them much. Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
Azazel The Misanthrope Proioxis Assault Force Exodus. 105	Posted - 2015.10.18 12:53:07 - [7] - Quote Reaver Glitterstim wrote: Azazel The Misanthrope wrote: Ok, I can understand this, but aren't you essentially (with what you have described) reducing the maximum amount of target locks that the victim can have by 1? No, you can jam out several of their locks. The more target locks they have, and the higher your jam chance, the more locks you jam out. For instance, if you have a 50% jam chance against a ship with 2 locks, you'll average one lock jammed. But if you have a 50% jam chance against a ship with 10 locks, you'll average 5 locks jammed. Racial ECM jammers still matter, they have a higher jam chance against the right ships and thus will jam out a larger percentage of the ship's target locks. Ultimately the ECM ship is trying to completely jam the target, but it's difficult to do without focusing multiple jams on them. Often it can be better to just spread the jams out to multiple targets--but you don't want too few jams on a target because it might not really hurt them much. Ok, I understand this more, my previous thought was that they would only be able to jam one target per ECM module which would have been horridly underwhelming.
Rawketsled Generic Corp Name 316	Posted - 2015.10.19 00:47:38 - [8] - Quote The mechanics are currently this: Oh, you're jammed, You can't target anything. Jams should become remote target spectrum breakers. Mechanically, they would then be: Oh, I've jammed you from targeting this ship. Go target another ship.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2675	Posted - 2015.10.19 02:29:25 - [9] - Quote Rawketsled wrote: Jams should become remote target spectrum breakers. Mechanically, they would then be: Oh, I've jammed you from targeting this ship. Go target another ship. That would relegate ECM ships almost entirely to solo usage, as they wouldn't provide any benefit to fleet members. Alternatively--and perhaps this is what you meant--the jam could break any current target locks the ship has and prevent it from locking the same ships for 20s, while still allowing it to lock anything else it didn't have locked when it got jammed. Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
Azazel The Misanthrope Proioxis Assault Force Exodus. 109	Posted - 2015.10.19 02:42:55 - [10] - Quote Reaver Glitterstim wrote: Rawketsled wrote: Jams should become remote target spectrum breakers. Mechanically, they would then be: Oh, I've jammed you from targeting this ship. Go target another ship. That would relegate ECM ships almost entirely to solo usage, as they wouldn't provide any benefit to fleet members. Alternatively--and perhaps this is what you meant--the jam could break any current target locks the ship has and prevent it from locking the same ships for 20s, while still allowing it to lock anything else it didn't have locked when it got jammed. I thought what he meant was ECM preventing a ship from locking onto a specific ship for the duration of the jam

Rawketsled Generic Corp Name 316	Posted - 2015.10.19 02:43:28 - [11] - Quote Reaver Glitterstim wrote: Rawketsled wrote: Jams should become remote target spectrum breakers. Mechanically, they would then be: Oh, I've jammed you from targeting this ship. Go target another ship. That would relegate ECM ships almost entirely to solo usage, as they wouldn't provide any benefit to fleet members. Alternatively--and perhaps this is what you meant--the jam could break any current target locks the ship has and prevent it from locking the same ships for 20s, while still allowing it to lock anything else it didn't have locked when it got jammed. Mostly what I meant. It'll only have an effect on ships targeting the ship being ECM'ed. In the solo-situation, it means ECM can't be used as a tank.
Mephiztopheleze Republic University Minmatar Republic 235	Posted - 2015.10.19 04:15:40 - [12] - Quote Just FYI: Jams naturally get weaker as a battle progresses as us ECM pilots build up heat in our midracks. Jams usually have their biggest impact in a fight when they land early, hence most ECM pilots will pre-heat our jams. ECM is 'powerful' in small gang and skirmishing fights when it's flown well by a competent pilot. In massive fleet slugfests, Sensor Damps and Tracking Disruption is a far more potent form of EWAR. It's not uncommon, although certainly undesirable, to finish a long fight with one or more burned out jammers. If you're having trouble with ECM, your fleet's anti-support elements need to get on the ball faster. Nothing ruins a 12.9 point heated jam strength Kitsune's day quite like a well flown arty Thrasher or rail Cormorant. Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2681	Posted - 2015.10.22 18:16:03 - [13] - Quote I can jam pretty successfully without heating most of the time, but on any tough target, overheating does make a huge difference. Another thing that could be done to change the way it works is to increase the margin of error by altering the calculation to produce a more even spread of chances of success. Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 2285	Posted - 2015.10.22 19:50:58 - [14] - Quote Oh, is it time for the quarterly 'nerf the weakest ewar some more' thread already?
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2681	Posted - 2015.10.22 20:14:46 - [15] - Quote afkalt wrote: Oh, is it time for the quarterly 'nerf the weakest ewar some more' thread already? It's the weakest because it causes the most annoyance and the least fun, and it affects everybody equally well. I'm pushing for a way to make it more intuitive and less binary. Then we can talk about making it more powerful. I'm trying to generate fun. Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
mnehila Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 1	Posted - 2015.10.25 01:09:24 - [16] - Quote I'd like the effect of when you are jammed to change from "not being able to lock" to "every targeting attempt have a chance of failing" (still using the full targeting time) + at the start of the ecm module cycle "every targeted ship have a chance of being unlocked". This would change the on/off feel of ecm to x amount targeting attempts failing and x locks lost, the amount depending on how strong the ecm effect is. I would also like if the effect only is applied to ships in the same direction as the ecm ship, ie, the ecm ship would have to be "behind" the fleet to be effective, and you could escape the effect of the jam by moving "sideways" until the ship you are trying to lock is no longer in a line between you and the ecm ship. This would create a fun positioning game I think :)
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2683	Posted - 2015.10.25 06:11:36 - [17] - Quote mnehila wrote: I'd like the effect of when you are jammed to change from "not being able to lock" to "every targeting attempt have a chance of failing" (still using the full targeting time) + at the start of the ecm module cycle "every targeted ship have a chance of being unlocked". This would change the on/off feel of ecm to x amount targeting attempts failing and x locks lost, the amount depending on how strong the ecm effect is. That is a really good idea. You should make a full post about that. The second part sounds interesting but it would be a nightmare to program into the legacy code, so really really not likely something like that will ever be done in EVE. Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
elitatwo Eve Minions The-Company 884	Posted - 2015.10.25 09:49:22 - [18] - Quote Rawketsled wrote: The mechanics are currently this: Oh, you're jammed, You can't target anything. This is false. Please be kind enough to tell the readers what can and cannot do. When you are jammed, you loose your target locks - the end, as in nothing else. Your boat does not stop, your modules do not stop and nobody is preventing you from warping away with your ship as it was prior to being jammed. And now the very difficult to comprehend part for the simple minded, when you are jammed you warp away and come back and have business as ususal. ECM is not the end of the fight it is just a delay. Now let me tell you about the most unfun module in EVE - the neutralizer. This modules does turn of your boat, your modules, your guns and is game over for you and your boat. It is the most unfun mechanic in EVE. Remove neutralizers. Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2683	Posted - 2015.10.25 18:39:47 - [19] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Now let me tell you about the most unfun module in EVE - the neutralizer. This modules does turn of your boat, your modules, your guns and is game over for you and your boat. It is the most unfun mechanic in EVE. Remove neutralizers. You're right about ECM, but let's discuss what you can still do when you're neutralized: Your capacitor doesn't stay at zero and in fact begins to crawl up almost instantly. Sometimes there is a brief (less than a second) pause before it starts. You can attempt to activate modules between neutralizer cycles. Hardeners can be a tough one to get in, especially on a smaller ship, but with enough flux coils it's not even that difficult. But cheaper modules like sensor boosters, tracking computers, stasis webifiers, etc. are much easier to turn on while neuted. Damage Control rarely turns off from neuts and is perhaps the easiest to turn back on. It doesn't prevent you from warping at all, because you always have a smidge of capacitor, and that's always enough to leave grid and give yourself plenty of time to realign and get an actual warp...unless you're flying a capital ship. And hey, like you said about ECM: warp off and come back and your capacitor is ready to go again. There is a lot more you can do to resist neutralizers, which is done in fitting, before combat: You can fit resistance amplifiers or rigs instead of hardeners, or tracking enhancers and signal amplifiers instead of tracking computers and sensor boosters, to cut capacitor costs. You can fit capacitor recharge bonuses (especially flux coils) to improve the capacitor available between neutralizer bursts. You can fit a capacitor booster to give yourself a carefully-timed jolt of capacitor which you can then spend before it gets taken, and you can fit a capacitor battery to both increase max capacitor and provide resistance to neutralization. You can fire missiles or projectile weapons just fine when neuted. Now neuts can be very annoying because there's much less you can do while it's happening, but keep in mind that there are so many ways to resist it that a lot of ship fits will use at least one, and you can take advantage of these when in that situation. Furthermore, if you notice you are getting neuted a lot, you might begin to incorporate many of these into your fittings. Unlike other EWAR resistance options (especially ECCM), these resistance options are great to have even when you aren't getting neuted out. Build a fit that uses them, and you're more difficult to neut out even though you never really get all that much resistance to it. .............................................. MORE TO THE POINT .............................................. While jammed, you cannot target AT ALL. You cannot start targeting. You have to wait, or leave, or do something on your ship. But let's be honest, most of what happens in a fight involves targeting, unless you're firewalling or dropping a bomb. ECM jammers are really annoying to the jammed victim, maybe we can change that. Let's not try to stifle the conversation with accusations that some other module is worse, maybe instead we should fix both. While neuted, you can only activate things you have enough capacitor for. Some of your modules cannot be activated at all, sometimes you can't activate anything that costs capacitor. You can target ships but it won't do you much good if your weapons cost capacitor. Neutralizers are really annoying to the capped out victim, maybe we can change that. Let's not try to stifle the conversation with accusations that some other module is worse, maybe instead we should fix both. Let's make it so that when you're jammed, it's hard to target but there's still something you can do. That's already the case with neutralizers but I'm open to other ideas to make them less annoying without nerfing them unreasonably--for instance, longer cycle times. Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
Rawketsled Generic Corp Name 318	Posted - 2015.10.26 00:28:00 - [20] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Rawketsled wrote: The mechanics are currently this: Oh, you're jammed, You can't target anything. This is false. Please be kind enough to tell the readers what can and cannot do. When you are jammed, you loose your target locks - the end, as in nothing else. Your boat does not stop, your modules do not stop and nobody is preventing you from warping away with your ship as it was prior to being jammed. And now the very difficult to comprehend part for the simple minded, when you are jammed you warp away and come back and have business as ususal. ECM is not the end of the fight it is just a delay. I did not say 'can't do anything.' A jammed ship can move, can tank, can warp off. I made no implication to anything contrary to that.

Generic Explodable Minion Order of the Seraphim 0	Posted - 2015.10.31 15:48:50 - [21] - Quote i invest a midslot on my battleship and put in an t2 eccm i invest a lowslot and put in a t2 back up array i invest a bill plus in higrade spurs i spend the time training sensor compensation to V i overload my eccm module total sensor str. 76,7 and still it only takes two racial jammers to put me permanently out of the fight. is there anything else i can do, except bring my own falcon/rook alt?
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2702	Posted - 2015.10.31 18:27:22 - [22] - Quote Generic Explodable Minion wrote: and still it only takes two racial jammers to put me permanently out of the fight. is there anything else i can do, except bring my own falcon/rook alt? You got pretty unlucky, I think the actual chance for a Rook to jam you is below 5%. Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
elitatwo Eve Minions The-Company 897	Posted - 2015.10.31 21:54:49 - [23] - Quote Oneiros Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!


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