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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 5 post(s)
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.28 23:50:00 - [1] Edited by: Nez Perces on 28/12/2006 23:51:58 This conflict is actually quite interesting... one has to wonder what happens when MCFix/LV/KIA etc ... go home. Or what happens if they never go home?... unlikely... surely ISS cannot afford to keep mercs on contract forever, it would make substantial inroads into their profit margins. Sooner or later, the ISS Navy is gonna have to actually fight IAC mano a mano.. or maybe it won't come to that.... infact a whole lot of things could happen. Perhaps this conflict will escalate into something much bigger than either ISS or IAC. Very difficult to tell. One thing is for sure though... if IAC manage to stick out the initial rough weather, time will not be on ISS' side, because as a business time is money, where as for IAC time is not such a big factor. IAC are not trying to run a business..... whereas ISS are. Thats ISS' achilles heel, trying to run a business in a game.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.29 23:15:00 - [2] Edited by: Nez Perces on 29/12/2006 23:17:31 Originally by: Butter Dog Someone who knows enough about MC to give them a good forum slapping. Lets just say some interesting insight into a few previous 'contracts' and some details on the most recent one they would rather are not public knowledge. Maybe next time they will think more carefully before their members send me downright rude evemails demanding I do what they say. lmao.. you are going to do battle with Seleene on the forums?? GL with that, she will swallow you like a glass of water, and then you will get buried alive. There are very few people in EVE that can mount a direct assault on MC's reputation... and you are not one of them. What an interesting thread this turned into. [edit:typos]
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.29 23:37:00 - [3] Originally by: Butter Dog They don't have an issue with it, you guys though were so very concerned about how YOU were being percieved, and YOUR performance, that you started throwing orders around like you owned me. ... your circle of logic is flawed young padawan... You have to think of it within the correct context. ISS need MC to be availabe for contracts as and when, therefore the relationship between ISS and MC is extremely important. It is more important than the relationship between ISS and Butter Dog. So... if push comes to shove and ISS have a brain cell between them, who should they chose to please?.... purely from a business point of view. Its a no brainer isn't it. So actually in a roundabout way, they do own you...... whilst you wear the ISS tags. Infact the behaviour of members of both MC and ISS are hostage to the business relationship the two entities share. Such a relationship overrides whatever individual liberties you think you may have. Lets be frank..... ISS cannot afford to have a large e-peen in this conflict.... infact they can't afford an e-peen. Period. Not when they are militarily dependent on mercs and other alliances.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.30 01:29:00 - [4] Originally by: Butter Dog You will additionally be acutely aware that you are s***-scared of AAA, and refuse to engage them at any price. You refused point blank. Its not an ISK thing, its a pride thing, you don't want a defeat because your precious ego can't handle it. Uh oh.. BD ups the ante, merc payments refused because MC can't handle AAA? .. there is no going back now... Also very interesting is BD's claim that he has implicit authorisation from Count T to be ISS' loudest forum warrior? and regretting having had to spin MC's refusal to go for all IAC stations. Is BD more than just a loose cannon?..... dun dun dun dun... I kid you not, this ain't half bad stuff.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.30 01:42:00 - [5] Originally by: Crozon Actually, if you re-read the above, you'll find that what BD said was that Count didn't care what BD said as he didn't represent ISS. rubbish.. Count T didn't get to where he is by not knowing a basic fact about forums..... what alliance members say on the forums, reflects on the alliance itself..... every alliance leader has to at some point reel in the forum whoring if it gets out of hand. Either Count T is guilty of gross negligence in respect to BD's forum techniques.. or he tacitly approves of what he has to say. The whole, I speak for myself and not my alliance, when speaking of alliance affairs, is the biggest lie ever told. Everything you say on the forums can and will be used against you, your corporation, your alliance and your unborn children. How else do you explain the proliferation of alts...
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.30 02:22:00 - [6] Originally by: Sergio Ling And Tactics. Because you choose not to fight someone doesn't make the decision BAD. It just means that tactically, you wouldnt be happy to enter into a fight where you don't have a good advantage, and that's ok. Well..... yes and no. Its not that easy. MC are not just some random bunch of fighters, MC bill themsleves as the best isk can buy. Their brand of firepower is calculated, measured but also devastating and has an element of gung-ho to it. I mean look no further than Seleene's signature: (and also all the Alien sigs that were so popular) "God loves the MC 'cause we kill everything we see." It does not say: "God loves the MC 'cause we only pick easy fights" MC are the best of the best of the best, Sir !!!! Thats the MC image. This is important because what MC have always said is that ISK talks.... if you pay them enough ISK and "have a plan", they will do the business and live or die doing it. I mean comeon MC aren't scared of dying...their business is death and destruction. Well BD is trying to break that image......... and it makes compulsive reading.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.30 02:43:00 - [7] Well well well.. thats a pretty big accusation there BD. Knocked my socks off.. for sure. But... while you are at it, and seeing as you 'know' so much, perhaps you can shed some light on the whole McFIX relationship, something that if I am to be honest, gives me indigestion. I mean its oil and water.. what on earth is FIX doing tagging along with MC all the time.. I cannot figure it out.. it makes no sense.. unless they are making up the numbers which MC have been lacking, aka cannon fodder. Throw us a bone butter dog, why is FIX following MC around like a lost puppy and what do they get out of it? ISK, FC knowledge, conversation, TS karaoke.....? I'm lost and it just does not make sense.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.30 03:12:00 - [8] Originally by: Lorth To be more accurate, I think you should mention that your info comes from some guy, who supposedly talked to anouther guy... Do you really expect someone to believe propoganda based on a game of telephone? Yup.. there is one thing lacking ofc from this whole dramafest.. proof. Also... where is the motive? If there was no employer, then where is the motive for Operation Prohibition?... anybody who watches CSI, knows there has to be a motive. If there was no employer then either MC or FIX had to have political motivations for the attack... and that would mean MC is not really a merc corp.. but then FIX isn't a merc alliance either. You know what, I think the key to all this is the MC <> FIX relationship.... what is it? So many questions, too few answers... sigh Oh yes and proof BD.. proof ....!!
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.30 03:23:00 - [9] Originally by: Butter Dog Seleene told someone who is a high ranking person in ISS, who passed the info to me. Added 1+1 together yet? Yes..... but its your reputation or his, you are gonna have to chose. Welcome to forum hell.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.30 03:40:00 - [10] Originally by: Butter Dog Haha, you lose the thread Seleene. Its been fun. Now I'm off to bed. Try not to tell me what to do in the future. PS - don't have nightmares about AAA while I'm gone Sorry BD, but you didn't win anything.... at least not yet.... you made your opening statment, yes it is pretty powerful stuff, what you are saying if true could seriously tarnish MC's reputation, and possibly curtail their asking price for contracts. But you still have to provide evidence, exhibits A and B. A for the fight that could have been won, but MC refused to engage in. B for the source of your information about Operation Prohibition. So far you have provided neither... nothing.. no logs, TS recordings, no witnesses, expert or otherwise.... Tomorrow once you have rested, the onus will be on you to substantiate your claims... or to put it mildly you will never hear the end of it. You don't ruin reputations like MC's without evidence.. it just doesn't happen... all you will achieve is ruining your own, or whatever is left of it.

Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.30 05:14:00 - [11] Originally by: Jas Dor Was Seleene joking when he admitted that he knew Tyrxx in RL and took at a private contract just to raz him for a couple of weeks? I don't know..... but it doesn't matter whether Seleene knows Tyrrax in RL or not or whatever. What matters is two things as far as BD is concerned. 1. Provide evidence, witnesses and other material to substantiate his claim that MC will only fight a sure thing. It seems that Marovinchian above you is willing to testify that MC have in the past passed up challenging contracts for easy ones... so perhaps there is something in that side of the story after all... Originally by: Marovinchian MC have in the past and will again in the future manufacture a reason and a "client" for what they consider to be a "fun" and fairly easy target, they will bring overwhelming forces (80 cap ships...cmon guys ) to these events and will thump thier chests, spin the forums, and find a way to keep the eve's population twisted into what they think they should be percieved as. Myself and many other ex-MC directors and leaders all know this, they may not post it as they either don't give a crap or simply don't like being flamed or spun by mc forum warriors, but it IS the way it is. ... however, this alone doesn't cut the mustard, it can be written off as sour grapes for one reason or another. For witnesses alone to clinch it, there would have to be several ex-MC whistle blowers, all with good solid combat records.. and there are plenty of those, I mean ex-MC with good combat records. Also as far as BD is concerned he needs to prove in some way that MC backed off engaging AAA in order to not suffer any losses. This part of BD's claim would need substantial time investment and an assortment of witnesses and evidence to prove. It could be done if true... and if BD can find enough persons to back him up particularly from ISS. 2. Operation Prohibition: The only thing thats gonna work here is for BD's source, if it exists, to actually back him up or allow his name to be used as proof that Seleene actually told somebody of some consequence that the whole operation was made up and that there was really no employer. Truth is that if BD can provide all of the above.... MC are in a spot of trouble.. at least in terms of what they will be able to claim on the forums in the future. So there is everything to play for.... but it requires some degree of effort from Mr Butter Dog, one evening of forumwhoring without much thought put into it, does not cut it.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.30 08:10:00 - [12] Edited by: Nez Perces on 30/12/2006 08:13:06 Originally by: krissi79 On the subject on FIX being there, does CODA ring a bell. I'm straining to remember now, IAC were part of CODA? And if they were, they were not the main instigators. That crown falls to Huzzah (mainly NoQuarter now) and what has become Roadkill Alliance. Hans Roaming was another very unpopluar figure for FIX at the time as the leader of Huzzah and the perpetrator of the 'Pearl Harbour' incident and yet FIX don't seem to mind a whole lot fighting alongside him. If FIX were still so miffed about CODA, they would be following Roadkill around and certainly wouldn't fly in gang with Hans Roaming. Nope, CODA got very little or nothing to do with why FIX has turned up twice with MC to attack IAC. There must be another reason. FIX are there to make up the bulk that MC lacks.. that much is clear, the thing that has me stumped is what do FIX get out of it? Nothing I can think of makes sense. FC knowhow? .. well, maybe but thats something you have to do for yourself, surely. Friendship? .. MC don't have friends, they have contracts. ISS isk? .. ISS say they aren't paying them. Future outpost protection? ...They live in BoB's space and are a 1000 strong alliance. Surely they can look after 1 outpost, they got nothing else to do. Tbh I have no idea and nothing I can think of makes much sense.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.30 08:23:00 - [13] Originally by: Haargoth Agamar Actually many FIX members were not happy to be working with Hans, some of them even wanted to pod him despite him being on there side. There is still some bitterness in there. -Haar lol.. I'm not surprised... and yet with this knowledge the CODA angle makes even less sense. So parts of FIX are still peeved off about CODA in general, yet they will through gritted teeth agree to fly in gang with Hans Roaming to go attack an entity that had no where near as much influence as Hans did in the CODA affair? ... nobody buys that.... Huzzah turned the CODA war into the gangbang it became..... and the main man was Hans. Infact he was dedidedly the brains behind it. If FIX was stil peeved about CODA, Hans would be perma-kos.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.30 18:45:00 - [14] Edited by: Nez Perces on 30/12/2006 18:50:08 lol this thread is ace. Anyways.... What have we got so far that has any value beyond.. bla bla bla, you suck? The Accusation - We have accusations from Butter Dog stating that MC chickened out from fighting AAA even when there was a good chance of winning, i.e MC have no balls, they only fight a sure thing. - BD accuses MC of making up an employer for Operation Prohibition. MC's Defense - Well fortunately for MC at the time of the accusations their word is worth more than BD's which gives them a starting advantage. So they can afford to simply say you are lying.. the onus of proof then goes to BD. Thats really all that MC have done to defend themselves at this stage.. and its more than sufficient if no proof is provided. Butter Dog's Proof - Butter Dog has provided a quote from a PM from Count T, saying that he was sorely disappointed by MC's performance "I am not afraid to admit that Sel and Ens were being cowards about it....... No money could have made him do it" and a screenshot, which on first inspection looks genuine, but I'm sure there are photoshop experts out there who can find any artifacts on it. - Butter Dog has named his source, Count T as the person who told him about Operation Prohibition having no employer. Count Tasessine Everything comes back to the top man.... what it effectively boils down to is.. who is lying? Is it Count T or Butter Dog?... We shall see.. very very exciting stuff. PS - If BD can assure us that his screenshot of that PM is genuine, then Count T is in a whole lot of trouble... and it will be BD that is right. Its actually all in the screenshot, if it is genuine.. BD wins the case, if it is not... forum hell awaits him.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.30 18:55:00 - [15] Originally by: Lorth Well lets also point out that all the screen shot effectivly does, is prove that we didn't engage AAA, which we have admited (8 pages ago), and stated reasons (though purposly vague) as to why not. So we're left with Count being dissapointed in that desistion, and still nothing about the faked contract. It does much more than that Lorth.... think past the physicality of it.... if the screenshot is genuine, then Count Tessanine lied in his post here on the forums. I.e he lied in public. Thats a big no no. His word willl be worth zero. Now once that happens Butter Dog's claims become true also. If what Butter Dog is saying is true.. then OMG.... MC is srewed. This is big, make no mistake about it. The thing is though ... Butter Dog is not home free by any stretch of the imagination... Count T and ISS are gonna pull out all the stops now.... it is Count T's reputation on the line, and by implication ISS'. Infact the battle has now become ISS vs Butter Dog... MC's reputation is now intrinsically tied to ISS' MC don't have a lot to say in this affair, until ISS have defended themselves.. from the screenshot revelation.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.30 18:59:00 - [16] Originally by: Ikvar Just out of interest, why does it matter about AAA? If Sel didn't think it was a good idea to take them on then what's the problem with that? Very confusing. Yes that would be fine... except if your employer was "immensely disappointed"... and thought you were "being cowards about it" and that.. "no money could have made him do it".. talking about Seleene. Butter Dog has provided a screenshot where your employer said those things. If true, then it would prove that MC heard AAA were turning up, picked up their toys and ran home.. irrelevant of any "plan" or isk the employer had. Thats [b]not[b/] the image MC projects.. now is it?
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.30 19:03:00 - [17] Originally by: Lorth Originally by: Count TaSessine AAA stopped that dead in the water. We asked all our allies to stand down from that moment on because ISS have NO desire to even try to fight a top alliance like AAA. And in the style of this thread, I'll declare myself the winner, since I can't miss out on a trend. No Lorth that doesn't work, in the same post Count T said that he had not been in communication with Butter Dog for 6 months or so.. "I haven't shared sensitive information with Butter Dog for 6 months or so". But the PM Butter Dog has shown us is from Dec 22nd ??? Somebody is telling porkies.... Until ISS defend themselves.. MC would do themselves a big favour by accepting the fact that the proof provided is sufficient for this the show to move forward to the next stage. ISS vs Butter Dog.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.30 19:05:00 - [18] Edited by: Nez Perces on 30/12/2006 19:06:39 Originally by: Butter Dog This certainly ISNT me V ISS and I'm not going to be dragged into that. Count did lie when he said I had been kicked, yes - and we have proof of that from a longstanding ISSN member who kindly posted my ISSN forum post stating I was leaving due to MC. But to be honest, its in his interest to maintain good relations with MC, and its only natural that he might say one thing in private and another publically regarding MC. That should not suprise anyone. Count is a genuinely nice guy, I don't know why he posted in this thread saying the things he did about me, that was an error of judgement perhaps. But my only choice at that point was to respond with what I knew, but what until that point I did not wish to say. But the gloves are by no means off between me and Count, nor do I wish them to be. This is about MC, not him. Wrong.... this has now become all about you and Count T, all your evidence is directly related to Count T. You should have thought about that before coming to the forums. Either you follow through and do what you need to do... or you lose.. your call.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.30 19:10:00 - [19] And btw Butter Dog.. I wouldn't shed any tears for Count T, he has hung you out to dry in the most visible way possible... he effectively called you a liar and a trouble maker on the forums.. if what you are saying is true.. he stabbed you in the back.. and put you up for public lynching. Don't waste your tears on him, I gurantee you his wasting none on you. BD you are alone... ISS have disowned you.. there is no going back now. You started this and you must finish it.. or it will finish you.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.30 19:13:00 - [20] Originally by: Kryztal But isnt the question then, why isnt Count saying that to Sel ? Why is he keeping it between him and Bitter Dog ? Perhaps MC have ISS wrapped wround their little finger? Perhaps ISS is genuinely scared of MC not doing anymore contracts.. perhaps MC owns ISS as far as contracts are concerned. Who is the daddy? Perhaps Count T, can only say the things he really feels in private, to people like butter dog.... perhaps Count T is a liar.. and actually tacitly approved of Butter Dog's antics on the forums. The screenshot stands. ISS are on trial.

Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.30 19:28:00 - [21] Edited by: Nez Perces on 30/12/2006 19:28:43 Originally by: Butter Dog I guess when it comes down to, what I have said would make him a liar in certain respects, but I didnt really think of it in that way. It doesn't matter .. something is very wrong when an alliance leader says one thing on the forums, yet knowing full well that somebody has PM's with him saying quite the opposite. His intent is quite clear.. He wants to discredit you.. the implication of Count T's post is that you photoshopped that screenshot... and that he does not talk to you about sensitive issues. Thats a pretty big lie. What does this mean for MC? well it starts to get a little bit complicated. Even if you are telling the truth.... what you are basing it on could be somebody who is a pathological liar... so your evidence about MC, becomes shaky... I mean who can trust the word of somebody who lies??? Thats the problem with having only one piece of evidence, if the source itself is discredited.. then the evidence itself becomes suspect. So.... in the end, if you win this .. what will happen is that ISS as an entity will be completely discredited.. MC will take a reputation hit, but not as much as could have been with a more varied source of proof. If Count T is lying then he could be lying about the lack of employer for Operation Prohibition. This is what I was trying to tell you about Seleene and MC, they have their bases covered pretty hard. Its a tricky one.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.30 19:56:00 - [22] Originally by: petergriffen Butter Dog, you started this whole storm over ISS, MC and everyone else involved with the intention that you were going to be removed from ISS Navy. You even said so your self. By acknowledging that fact, and announcing your resignation from ISS before you could be removed, you didn't hold anything back in your little 'smear campaign.' Unfortunately, I don't think you considered how much your personal reputation would suffer from this. I don't know you and couldn't care less what you say or do, but you've just lost a very big PR war. Whether or not you were 'kicked' or 'left on your own' is moot at this point, because the general consensus from most anyone who has been through this thread is that you've been kicked for being detrimental to ISS interests, and for just being a jackass in general. Your little screenshot says whatever whoever is reading it wants it to say. Is Count disappointed that Seleene and Co. didn't want to risk their dreads, as well as ISS, FIX, and everyone elses dreads, against a far superior capital force? Even if MC only had 5 or 6 dreads on the op, how many billion ISK does it take to cover those potential losses and still profit on top of that? How much more would it cost for the other Merc outfits there? To be honest, I don't think ISS has that kind of money burning a hole in their pockets. As was stated earlier, clients pay for our guns, not our friendship. No no no no... this is just standard MC spin... no no no no. There is a screenshot with Count T saying things like : "I think Sel and Ens are being cowards" [i]"Sel .. well he just showed us what he is made of. No money would have made him do it"... implying that more isk was on the table should MC have agreed to it.[i] Nothing MC say will change what the screenshot says. Its an employer, MC's primary employer stating that MC are lacking in the testicular department. You can't spin that. Moving on... The issue here is threefold: Is the screenshot real? If the screenshot is real, can what Count T says be trusted at all, since he would have been lying in statement about Butter Dog on these forums? If Count T is not insane... then we have to assume that he told Butter Dog in the PM is what he really thinks.. as it was done in private, and he would have nothing to gain by lying to BD. Either way if the screenshot is not discredited.. then the MC and ISS relationship is dead in the water. MC will have lost a main source of income, and ISS will have lost their main providers of firepower. IAC will be laughing its ass off.. BD will be vindicated and would have "won" the thread.. and have a reputation fully restored. The big losers would be MC and ISS. So please after 19 pages of revelations and logical arguments... no MC brainless spin.. no.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.30 20:01:00 - [23] Originally by: petergriffen Basically what it comes down to is a crying little baby, stomping his feet and screaming because he thinks something is due to him. No actually atm thats what you are doing... The screenshot is there for all to see... k..... you can't like wish it away.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.30 20:03:00 - [24] Originally by: Butter Dog Can't say fairer than that. Maybe Nez could do it? Thats IF someone claims its fake. Yup I'll do it.. in the interests of fair play. Seleene knows my mind and how I wouldn't do anytying untoward.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.30 20:06:00 - [25] Originally by: Avon If ISS had no plan to fight AAA, then no amount of ISK would get MC involved. What would be the point? Without an objective mercs serve no useful purpose, certainly not by just by being a meatshield (no matter how well paid). Even if it is Count's opinion that Sel lacked testicular fortitude, that does not mean it is true. All that post seems to imply is that Count hoped that MC would pew pew for isk, with no goal and no end-point. No self respecting merc outfit would sign up for that gig. Perhaps... what you are typing would make senes.. but for one thing. This was not some first time contract, ISS are MC's primary employer.. afte all this time, suddenly ISS became inept and could not put a plan together with some isk?? Comeon Avon. Something is wrong here. Something is wrong... its there but you cant touch it. If the screenshot is real then ISS and MC have fallen out massively. Is it because ISS have become inept, or is it because MC bailed out when the going got tough?
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.30 20:11:00 - [26] Originally by: petergriffen Now you're calling one of the few people who have been arguing for your cause a 'neutral party?' Actually I don't like Butter Dog much, I think he is obnoxious, has a big mouth... etc.. etc... I have no dog in this race, other than to see it reach a logical fair conclusion, simply because I believe the forums can be a valuable tool, beyond the usual smack, propaganda fests.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.30 20:14:00 - [27] Originally by: Avon A plan, sure. A plan in a day to effectively fight AAA? Tricky. Right.. but its a two-way street Avon.. if ISS really wanted MC to attack AAA and put isk and a plan together... with the long standing relationship they have MC should have been able to meet them half way and elaborate a more suitable plan perhaps at a time of MC's chosing. What seems to have happened is a complete breakdown in the long-standing relationship. The question is why? Did ISS suddenly become retarded? or did MC see AAA arrive.. and said "no way Jose"?
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.30 20:22:00 - [28] Originally by: petergriffen [ The ONLY thing you have brought to light, as I said, is a screenshot of a message from a private forum, which is up for debate as the message itself can be construed in a number of ways, depending on who's reading it. You're not the first person to call MC's reputation into question, nor will you be the last. man.. ISS is your primary employer.. in the PM he says MC are cowards and would not fight AAA for love nor money? This is not some random person.. he is the leader of the alliance that has been hiring MC the most for the last so many years. Its not that complicated to understand.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.30 21:26:00 - [29] Originally by: Grimster To take a dump on your own doorstep, just IMHO is never a wise thing, this has been debated over again more to lose than anyone could pay etc. Topic ended. Not quite... If this screenshot stands... MC could have a serious image problem on their hands and one they can't get out of. Allow me to explain.... The deal with BoB allowing you to put up shop in Delve has always been a little shady... are you neutral are you not? The fact that MC has 4 outposts deployed in Delve means your feet are effectively nailed to the floor. You have so much to lose by crossing swords with BoB or with their interests in general.. read FIX or other tennants like them. Your hooking up with FIX has added more fuel to that fire. I mean its getting all very cosy now isnt it. Two BoB tennants fighting together for no apparent reason... what do FIX get out of it? Count T in his PM to Butter Dog states that you would not fight AAA... and it seems certainly FIX would not fight AAA. AAA is your neighbour on BoB's doorstep and between the two of them they are carving up AXE and ASCN territory. Its all looking a bit odd... and I hate tinfoil hats, I refuse to wear them. FIX <> MC, no fighting AAA, outpost in BoB territory... easy contracts. It looks a bit fishy from where I'm reading.. but perhaps I'm reading too much into it.. who knows? Either way... some dirt is gonna rub off here... MC would have to completely discredit ISS and Count T, to get away scott free.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.30 21:38:00 - [30] Originally by: Wicke When we get a contract, we set specific goals with our client. They say we want you to do 'x'. We do 'x'. Publicly, our client says we did 'x' and say we did a good job. Then the client, on an internal forum says the opposite, how is that bad for us? All we can do is complete the goals asked of us. If we're asked to paint a wall with green paint, but the client secretly wanted it painted purple, how would we know? I dont quite understand how the PM has any relevance to this thread. The Count publicly praised our actions. To me, this is an internal ISS problem now. If youre a leader of an organization, you will never please everyone. For someone to win, there will be a loser. Make a decision and stick with it. If that decision is said in public, then that is your default decision. I think the Count was trying to smooth out the situation by agreeing with everyone involved in private. Well, from your post one can infer that MC will be putting some distance between ISS. It will become an "internal problem". Aka Count T is crazy, he says one thing, does another, doesn't know what he wants etc... its the smart move undoubtedly. I highlighted something in bold for you you say that Count T was possibly trying to smooth things over with everybody involved... does that include coming onto the forums and lying about having spoken to BD about this? We have been led to believe that BD is just a loose cannong... now you are suggesting he was actually somebody important enough to require Count T's personal attention to be calmed down? By what BD claims, he is nothing short of Count T's confidante.. he gets told about the lack of an employer and then gets told about about how MC wouldnt fight AAA for any amount of ISK. Ive been an alliance leader and I can tell you straigt up that thats some pretty big stuff to be talking about in private. Something you only talk about with people you trust. Unless Count T has lost it.

Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.30 21:52:00 - [31] K the screenshot is real.. and henceforth Count T said those things to Butter Dog. What does this mean? Well for starters it means Count T has no problem whatsoever coming onto the EVE-online forums and telling porkies, even though he knows (or has lost his mind) that the person he was trying to bury had a PM with his name on it. We have to now assume that Butter Dog was not lying when it comes to the non-existant employer for operation prohibition. Ofc the problem is that the source was Count T, a known liar.... so was he lying to BD when he told him about Seleene spilling the beans? I guess we will never know. Though it does cast a large shadow on the whole issue. AAA and MC not wanting to fight them: Either MC lack testicular fortitude or Count T is so far gone that he has become unrealistic in his assessment of military situations. Difficult to say which. Either way MC and ISS took a hit today. There is no escaping that. Butter Dog, you actually won the thread now.... congratulations. And you still have a reputation ... of sorts
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.30 21:58:00 - [32] Originally by: Butter Dog \o/ Told you I wasnt lying :p I'll admit that I underestimated you.. Anyways this seems like a happy ending.. I like happy endings.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.30 22:08:00 - [33] Originally by: Lorth Come on, you can't let the guy go because the one thing both sides agreed on actually turned out in a startling revelation to be true? I'd like to hear some more about the MC didn't have client thing for one, since thats by far his biggest claim (to us) thus far in the thread, and he hasn't done a thing to support it other then saying he knows a guy who knows a guy... Well the assumption is that it was Count T that told him about the lack of employer for Operation Prohibition.. (Butter Dog already hinted at it earlier) and that's where the buck stops.. I mean the guy has no problem telling porkies. Did he lie to Butter Dog too? .. I guess we will never know.. only Seleene and a few select MC know the answer to that question.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.30 22:13:00 - [34] Originally by: Butter Dog There is nothing more that I can do, other than that. Now, everyone knows Nez is the best judge of these thread, and MC officially lose the thread :) Well not quite.. you won the thread, yes.. you provided verifiable proof that Count T spoke to you about sensitive issues such as his displeasure with MC's performance against AAA... which could have included the lack of employer for Operation Prohibition. Who lost the thread? Well ISS lost, MC lost some.. but mainly you won the thread.. if you wanted to identify one main loser it would have to be: Count T, he is the only one that actually lied outright and the only one whose lie has been proven... the rest is conjecture... but still this thread did MC no favours.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.30 22:50:00 - [35] Edited by: Nez Perces on 30/12/2006 22:52:56 Originally by: Lorth The stuff he said is not small fry when your a member of the MC. He publically posted the we had no employer for our contract. Yet has done nothing in the slightest to offer any amount of evidence to prove this. He stated that we always took the easy contract, yet ignored my rubutle, and kept on posting it again and again. Later in the thread he continued it insist that we didn't fullfill the contract obligations, despite him self offering two versions of the contract. Not to mention everyone else, who would know, saying that we did. He's stated that we had little to no influance in the battle for F4. Yet even IAC say a differant story, as well as everyone else involved in this conflict save for him. None of that stuff is small fry in the least. And he's been lying and telling two differant stories througout this whole thread. And I for one think its fun to back him into a corner and confront him with the slandreous accusastions that he's made against us, non of which he has bother to back up in the slightest other the repeating them for the last dozen pages. And about the only thing he's been right about, frankly has little to do with our own reputation, and I for one am not willing to give him a walk on all the falsehoods posted based on something that frankly has little bearing on my own alliences reputation. Yeah but if you wanna argue every little thing he said... you will be here well into next year. To get any value out of this thread you have to distill the important points and those are 2 main claims that BD made. 1. Lack of employer for Operation Prohibition. >>>>> Count T is the source. 2. Not engaging AAA no matter what ISK was provided, wether on that night or in the future. >>>>>>> Count T is the source. Thats the important things.. everything else is details that mean a lot to you but in the context of the thread are not the main issues..... you have to be selective.. or else you will be guilty of burying the issue with lots and lots of words. Count T is the source. What happens next?...... I don't know.. maybe Count T will go quiet for several weeks, hoping everybody will forget this whole episode. Or perhaps he will make a statement and start a new show.. where MC do their utmost to brand him as a deranged lunatic? Who knows... but this show is over. Right now they are rolling the credits......
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.30 23:02:00 - [36] Originally by: Goodtime Girl Hell if my misses knew what I said behind her back my nads would be pickled and fed to me over a period of months ...... we all say things "we really don't mean" (apart from wanting to do the finger a bum thing to her) but are just venting steam and frustrations .. K.. but this is EVE and Count T leads an alliance, every word he utters carries significance.... and he should know that what he says can end up used against him publicly. Thats the way it works, its ugly, its not very nice but thats how things work. Besides.. this get out clause.. of "Oh I was angry and frustrated"... etc.. doesnt work anymore.. because Count T closed that door by posting that he had not been in communication with Butter Dog for over 6 months and did not approve of his forum antics. Something which does not tally up with the tone of the PM and the date on which it was sent. The guy tried to bury BD publicly with lies..... thats bad.. no matter which way you look at it. And you simply cannot afford to do that stuff in Count T's position.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.30 23:09:00 - [37] Originally by: Wicke Wicke> Mickey mouse killed JFK. Nez> Someone quick... arrest Mickey Mouse!! He murdered JFK! See how easy it is to be Nez? Yes its hard work... all this typing. Mickey Mouse was the third shooter on the grassy knoll, everybody knows that.. whats your point?
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.31 00:52:00 - [38] Originally by: Ryuto Rey The Mittani > True! It will only embarass the hell out of you and shatter the morale of your rather weak-kneed pvp corps. Count TaSessine > who knows Count TaSessine > perhaps yu're right The Mittani > Anyhoo, the question is what you want to do Count TaSessine > tell me what you think we should do The Mittani > Given the WSJ article? The Mittani > I'd offer IAC F4R, tell them if they ever ever do this again you'll get this many dreads after them, chestbeat a little and then spew some more of your nauseatingly hypocritical neutrality claptrap over eveo. I don't know if this chatlog is true or not... but omg the bit in bold me roflmao. Class.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.31 01:01:00 - [39] Edited by: Nez Perces on 31/12/2006 01:01:37 Originally by: Kyguard Count hasn't lost his rep. It takes more than a comment made out of frustration to destroy that man's reputation. Same as Seleene. I'm afraid you don't quite understand what happened here... Count T's reputation was not destroyed by what he said about MC, thats just a disgruntled employer venting a little. What has destroyed Count T's rep is this : Originally by: Count Tesassine I haven't shared sensitive information with Butter Dog since about 6 months ago when we first kicked him out of ISS. ....... He has now been kicked out again........ Despite a clear agreement not to post on Eve-O, he was unable to control himself. To be honest, I don't know what drives BD to do things this way..... (sounds like porkies to me, considering he PM's BD with sensitive info...) We asked all our allies to stand down from that moment on because ISS have NO desire to even try to fight a top alliance like AAA. another porkie.. thats not what the PM he sent to butter dog says The biggest lie here is pretending he has not shared information with Butter Dog over the last 6 months. The date of the PM is the 22nd of December. And anybody who tries to say that calling Selene and Enslaver "cowards" and contradicting his official stance in respect to MC's performance as mercenaries is not sensitive information for somebody in Count T's position is delusional.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.31 01:21:00 - [40] Originally by: Algey A venting PM to a friend is not sensitive information you muppet. For goodness sakes Count considered Butter Dog a friend, of course he'd talk about how things had gone. What civilian commander wouldn't seeing as how easy MC et al had made taking F4R look? From a military point of view it was a hugely difficult operation, however it looked easy, and like MC were just not interested in taking another contract. Ask yourself, would you have comitted dreads with AAA in system, and no solid intel of where their dread fleet was based? So now Count Tesassine and Butter Dog were good friends? Good enough friends that he might tell Butter Dog about a non-existant employer in relation to Operation Prohibition? Good enough friends, that he might tacitly approve of BD's forum antics on behalf of ISS? So Count T tells his friends one thing but posts quite another publicly with the intention of ruining said friends. Who needs friends like that. The moment Count Tesassine posted that Butter Dog was persona non-grata in ISS, I think the friendship probably ended... at least ingame. If Count T knew that BD had possesion of such a PM, he shot himslef in the foot by publicly trying to discredit his 'friend'. How many 'friends' does Count T have with PM's sitting on their browsers where he complains about MC lacking testicular fortitude and revealing how MC did not have an employer for Operation Prohibition. Count T screwed up, thats the best spin you can put on it. As for AAA and whether it was a good idea to engage them or not? .. depends who you ask I guess. Butter Dog a good 'friend' of Count T's and supposedly an FC in ISS thought it was, gah even Count T himself was disappointed... so who knows.

Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.31 01:41:00 - [41] Originally by: Algey You are determined to manufacture a problem aren't you. I don't have to manufacture anything, the problem exists in of its own right. Count T lied on these public boards to save himself trouble with MC, prepared to burn a 'friend' in order to save the MC <> ISS relationship. I'll tell you what it honestly looks like to me.. ISS are going down. Where is your firepower coming from when IAC start to gain more and more ground? Can ISSN hold out against IAC alone? This whole saga stinks of an alliance with big problems, and it looks like your MC/FIX/LV/Veto/KIA bandwagon was a waste of time and ISK. As a side effect MC's rep isn't as scary as it used to be. Thats what has happened here... its clear to see. My prediction: ISS is a sinking ship.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.31 01:46:00 - [42] Originally by: Algey Blub Blub, help I'm sinking, nooooooo. Don't worry Admirals can swim just fine
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.31 04:11:00 - [43] Edited by: Nez Perces on 31/12/2006 04:17:20 Originally by: Smoking Mirror Nez Perces is a moron. Thats what you really wanted to say isnt it... The rest is smoking mirrors. You can make up as many excuses as you want about Count T's post trying to bury Butter Dog, he had a headache, he had a tooth ache, he was frustrated, angry, PMT etc.. etc... That does not change a basic fact. Butter Dog was causing trouble, Count Tesassine blundered onto the forums trying to discredit him in order to keep MC sweet, but forgot? that he had sent BD a PM containing sensitive information or sensitive opinions. And what that PM contained is sensitive... there is no two ways about it, its not just semantics. You saw Seleene's reaction to that PM. "Oh ho ho!.. very interesting etc.... look forward to Count T's reply" Its sensitive stuff, period. Count Tesassine messed up... in the best case scenario he chose words to make his statment that could be called out on. He could have said any number of things, heck I could have written him a post which would have been air tight. It was a terrible post by Count Tesassine, bearing in mind that he has actually been in contact with Butter Dog throughout this whole ISS <> IAC business and that Butter Dog had PM's with his name on it. I mean what was he thinking?? Calling me a moron does not change things... I'm sorry. [edit:typo]
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.31 04:59:00 - [44] Edited by: Nez Perces on 31/12/2006 05:03:11 Originally by: Xander Magnus You're basing a lot of conclusions on a simple private PM and taking it all out of context to suit your personal agenda it seems... K what is my personal agenda? I'd like to hear it. I'll tell you what... I'll help you, I think there is something wrong with the whole McFIX thing... I don't know what it is, and I can't put my finger on it. K happy? Now thats as far as it goes, in respect to a personal agenda. Beyond that I find the thread interesting... and also I believe that there is a kernel of truth to be found in what Butter Dog is saying.. its just a gut instinct. I like the truth. Originally by: Xander Magnus That PM doesn't make Count's post terrible at all. What if he was venting some steam? You're making your own personal opinion sound like there is no other conclusion and you simply state facts. It was a personal message for a reason. BD had no excuse to post that PM, no matter what. That conversatoin was based on trust, and there are no excuses for posting it afterwards. It's like making pictures of your girlfriend and putting them on the internet after she broke up with you. I think with the thread being so long, you missed some crucial stages of what has happened here. Lets go over them for the upteenth time. 1. Butter Dog is up to his usual tricks on the forums, rubbing people up the wrong way, being slightly obnoxious.. not really doing ISS any favours. The usual. 2.Somebody in MC gets annoyed with his postings, to the point where they send him eve-mails.. with a severity of tone sufficient to make Butter Dog feel threatened and annoyed that MC are trying to shut him up. 3.Butter Dog says he will reveal stuff. He also says that Count T doesn't mind him posting 4. MC say "oh yeah what stuff" 5. Butter Dog makes his two big claims, MC were scared of AAA and would not engage for any amount of ISK and that he has a source whom Seleene told about there not being a contract for Operation Prohibition. 6.Count Tesassine arrives on the forums saying he has not spoken to Butter Dog in over 6 months about anything of any consequence and that he will be glad to see the back of him and that he did not approve of his forum whoring on behalf of ISS 7. Butter Dog reveals his source with a PM as proof. His source is Count Tesassine he has a genuine screenshot of a PM with Count Tesassine saying not very nice things about MC. Count Tesassine is also the source for the information about Operation Prohibition. We got drama!!!! Now you're saying that Butter Dog had no excuse to post that PM.... well maybe.. but if he hadn't he would have been jeered out of town. If you look at the chain of events you will realise that until Count Tesassine tried to discredit Butter Dog, BD had not revealed the source. The truth is Count Tesassine forced him into it, with his post. Which is why its such a bad post, it forced Butter Dog to reveal Count Tesassine as the source. Tbh you couldn't make this up, its a great story... its got everything in it. I mean if you look at the chain of events with a clear head. Count Tesassine's behaviour is odd very odd.... his post in retrospect seems like a poor attempt at damage limitation, where he realises that Butter Dog has posession of damaging information and does a botched up job of trying to bury him, in retrospect it even seems an act of desperation. [edit:typo]

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