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Meykud Khamsi Hedion University Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2015.10.20 20:28:02 - [1] - Quote Wouldn't it be fun to sit in a management meeting at CCP? Do they actually sit and wonder why they can't get more players while running a game wherein scamming people is a legitimate in-game occupation? "Let's take a look at what new users do. They get suicide ganked. Then somebody scams them. Then they get flamed in local chat. But that's all allowable in-game mechanics! Then the few who do hold on can either run missions or mine asteroids for weeks on end until they can afford a better ship at prices that are hyper-inflated by our selling PLEX that gets turned into ISK..., and that ship is promptly destroyed, and isn't covered by the highest insurance available... But that's all allowable in-game mechanics!" "Well, if that's allowable in-game mechanics, why isn't our retention rate higher? Why wouldn't somebody pay us money for this experience?!" Cheers, Meykud Ps: I look forward to this thread being locked, as CCP refuses to acknowledge that talking about the biggest problems with their game is "constructive."
Mr Epeen It's All About Me 9363	Posted - 2015.10.20 20:33:52 - [2] - Quote What you say is a bad mechanic, I and many others feel is what actually attracts many people to the game and has been a solid contributor to it's longevity. Mr Epeen There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
Carrie-Anne Moss The Scope Gallente Federation 485	Posted - 2015.10.20 20:36:59 - [3] - Quote Those readons are LITERALLY the only reasons a lot of us play this video game and have played this game for almost 13 years. Ccp used to do the "BE THE VILLIAN!" Advertisements to attract us in the first place. You dont like it? PICK LIKE LITERALLY ANY AND EVERY SINGLE OTHER VIDEO GAME THERE IS Except this one. The last stalworth bastion of the open sandbox. This aint the game for you. Can i have your SP?
Meykud Khamsi Hedion University Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2015.10.20 20:38:42 - [4] - Quote There's a surprise -- a 7-year-old character who enjoys playing a game wherein "**** people over!!" is the key selling point. Here are some taglines: "EVE: Because Griefing Isn't Allowed in WOW" "EVE: For When Everyone Is Better Than You At Everything Else" "EVE: If The Players Won't Grief You, The Developers Will" Cheers, Meykud
Meykud Khamsi Hedion University Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2015.10.20 20:43:50 - [5] - Quote Carrie-Anne Moss wrote: Those readons are LITERALLY the only reasons a lot of us play this video game and have played this game for almost 13 years. Ccp used to do the "BE THE VILLIAN!" Advertisements to attract us in the first place. You dont like it? PICK LIKE LITERALLY ANY AND EVERY SINGLE OTHER VIDEO GAME THERE IS Except this one. The last stalworth bastion of the open sandbox. This aint the game for you. Can i have your SP? Multiple misspellings and all caps. Again, if you're good at nothing else in your life, there's always EVE. "Well, I have the IQ of rebar, but I have $15 per month and somebody taught me how to suicide gank n00bs in Amarr, so this is the game for me!!" Cheers, Meykud
Marsha Mallow 2651	Posted - 2015.10.20 20:47:42 - [6] - Quote Don't see why it should be locked. I've always been intrigued by the design philoosophy behind a game set up to punish the weak. Are they really weak? People lose stuff then crawl off and rage, then come creeping back. It's like a horrified fixation. Maybe it encourages masochism, I dunno. Some seem to take it as a challenge and then engage in different types of strategies for coping. But it is character building, and it does reflect the harshness of real life in many ways. Which might be why some older players can pick it up faster - because they've experienced RL loss/hardship before. Where for younger or more innocent people it's their first taste. So they either reject the principle (and blame other players/CCP for the design) or they try bypass aspects of it by grinding in a risk-free environment. But losing is actually fun, and it does create a self reinforcing idea of mental resilience. So some of the most hardcore people in EvE are actually losers. But yes btw, overt griefplay purely for spite indicates signs that the playerbase is in decline and locked into a cycle of self-loathing. So that needs correcting, and I think once the balance is tipped in various areas it'll become something players actively promote for the health of the game going forward. I'm hoping CCP meetings consist of identifying these high level issues, then working out how to fix them. And the most effective way within a virtual environment like this is to get players to do it. You should report those problems here, and if it can't be fixed by people willing enough to coach you through them, the thing has to be nerfed. The playerbase can whine all they like, but creating systems to harass new players is poisonous. And change is good, sometimes. New people can be indoctrinated into an evolving game by people willing to evolve with the game. Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: TO THE PITCHFORKMOBILE! Benny Ohu wrote: fire up the argument calibrators set phasers to outraged overheat keyboards reinforce the thread Jenn aSide wrote: does anyone have any assless chaps I could borrow?
BirdStrike State War Academy Caldari State 78	Posted - 2015.10.20 20:48:33 - [7] - Quote It's actually quite tame. In Dayz Epoch i built a set of concrete locking prisons. I would shoot players unconscious then drag them in and keep them locked up, then play loud rock music over local chat. Thanks to the permadeath mechanic they were literally stuck until they died of dehydration or hunger or left the server. Compared to DayZ players EVE is like hello kitty.
Lan Wang V I R I I Ineluctable. 1709	Posted - 2015.10.20 20:50:33 - [8] - Quote you know when i play a game i tend to usually read some stuff on what the game is about and what you can do, isnt that what everyone does? Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic \| Angel Cartel \| Serpentis \|
Boom Boom Longtime EVE Corporation 6908469858 Heroes and Villains. 1228	Posted - 2015.10.20 20:57:03 - [9] - Quote Having just watched this years 2nd episode of the UK apprentice: teams were tasked with trying to brand cactus shampoo, Is now curious what catcus seed oil washed and invigorated hair would smell like. Please CCP make cactus shampoo available for purchase alongside the skins and all other exciting new things that come out with new patches available for purchase with aurum ofc. Thank you in advance, no doubt my hair will feel the benefit of the radient sheen this product will offer even if one has to pay a shamelss premium to obtain. Concord Approved Trader
d0cTeR9 Astro Technologies SpaceMonkey's Alliance 254	Posted - 2015.10.20 20:58:29 - [10] - Quote Other 'we hold your hand' video games over there ---> This IS EVE. Been around since the beginning.
Meykud Khamsi Hedion University Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2015.10.20 20:59:50 - [11] - Quote BirdStrike wrote: It's actually quite tame. In Dayz Epoch i built a set of concrete locking prisons. I would shoot players unconscious then drag them in and keep them locked up, then play loud rock music over local chat. Thanks to the permadeath mechanic they were literally stuck until they died of dehydration or hunger or left the server. Compared to DayZ players EVE is like hello kitty. Now here's an example of a striking success of a game. By all means, make EVE more like... wtfever this is you're describing... Cheers, Meykud
Meykud Khamsi Hedion University Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2015.10.20 21:05:18 - [12] - Quote Of course, I'm exaggerating, right? Because, if somebody ganks you in hi-sec in EVE, then for only 1 billion ISK you can flag them and retaliate!! I mean, that's cool, right? And do you ever notice how all this pricing and letting the economy run red-hot and letting players have no place to be left alone for a moment other than inside a station amounts to one thing: Pay CCP money. I hear their CEO got his start in business running a little street-side stand in Iceland where people could pay him to get punched in the nuts. He has now scaled that philosophy to an entire virtual world. Incidentally, I'm especially down on EVE now because I've realized that years worth of talk about how the uber players are often CCP devs who kind of drive the game along -- is actually true. So you're not just paying for other players to grief you. You're paying CCP to actually come and grief you. That's some customer service... Cheers, Meykud
Arla Sarain 678	Posted - 2015.10.20 21:05:36 - [13] - Quote I was a new player 2 years ago. I didn't get suicide ganked. I only got scammed once (by the margin trading skill scam). I was flamed in local sometimes. I still get flamed in local sometimes... I'm still here and I didn't end up running missions in highsec, even though I did do them (up to level 3). Doubt I'm special. People get ganked because they willingly put themselves at risk without even considering taking up on any precautions. They get scammed because the expect some sort of good sportsmanship from other players and think if something is too good to be true, it oughta be true because this is a game! There is nothing wrong with the things you've listed being part of the game experience. If they are not retaining players, that doesn't imply they are bad mechanics. Just that players have low tolerance towards them. Sucks to be them...
Meykud Khamsi Hedion University Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2015.10.20 21:11:14 - [14] - Quote Arla Sarain wrote: I was a new player 2 years ago. There is nothing wrong with the things you've listed being part of the game experience. If they are not retaining players, that doesn't imply they are bad mechanics. Just that players have low tolerance towards them. Sucks to be them... Right. They're rational people, and they play games, and pay to play games, and CCP's attitude is "Screw that!!" You know, some games have PVP flags... And some games care about scammers... And some games want players to afford things, especially when they're paying a subscription... Cheers, Meykud
Arla Sarain 678	Posted - 2015.10.20 21:16:39 - [15] - Quote Meykud Khamsi wrote: Arla Sarain wrote: I was a new player 2 years ago. There is nothing wrong with the things you've listed being part of the game experience. If they are not retaining players, that doesn't imply they are bad mechanics. Just that players have low tolerance towards them. Sucks to be them... Right. They're rational people, and they play games, and pay to play games, and CCP's attitude is "Screw that!!" You know, some games have PVP flags... And some games care about scammers... And some games want players to afford things, especially when they're paying a subscription... Cheers, Meykud I don't understand. Yes, some games have those. Your point being is that it's bad that this game doesn't have them? EVE has PvP flags. Players can afford things in this game, check the market where millions of items are traded every day. I don't get the deal with scams. If you get scammed, you have to be really dumb, or it had to be a really clever scam. There was a russian post on the these forums, where a player claimed that his perception of the deal was somehow outside of the ingame mechanics and therefore he should be reimbursed and the scammer prosecuted by CCP. Really? EDIT: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=444298&p=1 TL:DR the guy got scammed by one of those ISK doublers who have a "minigame" in their bio; supposedly if you follow the rules you will be given ISK. He argued that it's not a "game moment" and that it would be acceptable if he mixed up a BPC with a ship icon in contract and overpayed. "But for scamming and lying people go to prison in real life". I don't know, why on earth do people believe this trash? Do you click on every advert on the internet that says "Brits found a way to buy iPhones for -ú1"?
Paul Pohl blue media poetry 3	Posted - 2015.10.20 21:20:54 - [16] - Quote I can't say this is my experience of eve and the things you state as problems, aren't - since they all have ways around them
Meykud Khamsi Hedion University Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2015.10.20 21:23:28 - [17] - Quote [/quote] I don't understand. [/quote] Obviously. Cheers, Meykud
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 25456	Posted - 2015.10.20 21:25:18 - [18] - Quote Meykud Khamsi wrote: Wouldn't it be fun to sit in a management meeting at CCP? Do they actually sit and wonder why they can't get more players while running a game wherein scamming people is a legitimate in-game occupation? "Let's take a look at what new users do. They get suicide ganked. Then somebody scams them. Then they get flamed in local chat. But that's all allowable in-game mechanics! Then the few who do hold on can either run missions or mine asteroids for weeks on end until they can afford a better ship at prices that are hyper-inflated by our selling PLEX that gets turned into ISK..., and that ship is promptly destroyed, and isn't covered by the highest insurance available... But that's all allowable in-game mechanics!" "Well, if that's allowable in-game mechanics, why isn't our retention rate higher? Why wouldn't somebody pay us money for this experience?!" Cheers, Meykud Ps: I look forward to this thread being locked, as CCP refuses to acknowledge that talking about the biggest problems with their game is "constructive." I hear that several other games are looking for subscribers. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 40548	Posted - 2015.10.20 21:28:04 - [19] - Quote Meykud Khamsi wrote: You know, some games have PVP flags... And some games care about scammers... And some games want players to afford things, especially when they're paying a subscription... Eve has all of that and so much more. You're clearly emotional right now and lashing out. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. It happens to everyone at different times. I hope after you calm down though that you are able to see that it wasn't the games fault. The responsibility for loss, especially to scams, is individual. Not the games fault. Your responsibility. That for many people is the beauty of Eve. It doesn't hold anyone's hand. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Meykud Khamsi Hedion University Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2015.10.20 21:29:16 - [20] - Quote Paul Pohl wrote: I can't say this is my experience of eve and the things you state as problems, aren't - since they all have ways around them So, imagine this... First off, let's just assume that there are thousands of MMORPG players who aren't morons/scrubs/sheep etc... who don't play EVE. I know it's hard for the typical EVE player to imagine that this is possible but, believe me, it is. There are many, many great, capable gamers in the world who play other MMORPGs (even WOW -- shocking, I know). So, one of these people has $15 per month to spend on a game. They can either spend it on a game that's really challenging, but doable, and enjoy themselves, feel a sense of hard-earned accomplishment, and slowly accomplish interesting things in the company of good people. Or they can pay CCP that $15 to pretty much let people like you rub their faces in **** for two years before they figure out how to have even a cursory fulfillment. Why would that person spend that $15 on EVE? For the pleasure of your company? And this isn't even taking into account that every possible occupation in EVE takes at least five hours of research just to understand and do. We're just assuming that's a given. EVE, by default, literally asks people to pay money and do hours of homework just so you people can screw them over and laugh at them. Again, why would anybody pay for this? Cheers, Meykud
Marsha Mallow 2653	Posted - 2015.10.20 21:29:40 - [21] - Quote Meykud Khamsi wrote: They're rational people Wrong Sorry, but normal gamers are a bit odd. They seem to be channelling their unrealised aggression via an online setting. You can spot them a mile off ingame or on forums, partly because 'gamers' are a curious breed of people. Only reason I know is that I tend to pull these, then go back to their house and have substandard sexual encounters whilst staring at some sort of superhero poster, or at least I did. Now I recognise these are a different breed of nerd to me, and whilst we fascinate each other, they're crap in bed. I'd rather step across that and talk to people with more diverse interests inline with my own, and they are here too. But they're being drowned out by a wider gamer culture that undermines this niche game, which is actually storyline based. It's the diversity that has made this community unique - especially the writers. And writing or leading ingame means being 'fearless' in all sorts of ways. As does soloing. It doesn't fit with the dominant gamer paradigm and there's been a marked shift in the last few years towards a grindy-pimp MMO. The people who are most inline with CCP in terms of attitude and being 'fearless' have been downtrodden by banal gamers and expectations they imported from other games. Well, **** them. You're just going to have to learn to lose digital items with good humour, whether you paid for them with time or cash. And the rest who are fearless better start showing it off, if anything just to annoy everyone else :) Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: TO THE PITCHFORKMOBILE! Benny Ohu wrote: fire up the argument calibrators set phasers to outraged overheat keyboards reinforce the thread Jenn aSide wrote: does anyone have any assless chaps I could borrow?
Arla Sarain 679	Posted - 2015.10.20 21:34:54 - [22] - Quote Meykud Khamsi wrote: Arla Sarain wrote: I don't understand. Obviously. Cheers, Meykud So you basically have nothing to argue with? Just intend to correlate ganking and scamming with player decline and mislead people into believing that the game is dying because some miners got popped because they thought "oh hey look at the green number at the top I oughta be safe now" and didn't actually bother looking at D-scan. Or because someone was gullible (rightfully maybe, lack of life experience and such) and got scammed? How about this - this game in large part requires a proactive approach. You have to plan ahead and think up of as many instances where things can go wrong, organise contingencies and employ redundancies. This in turn requires an extremely ambitious and willful mindset. The evidence to this is ping-logins - people actually sit docked up or don't even log and simply wait either for a scheduled fleet or event. These players don't do much moment to moment. Thing don't really happen around them or because of them. EVEs only potential problem is that it takes effort. Something that a lot of people don't want to put in, understandably, because it's a game. In contrast, if it's a game, why do you have to be such a hardass just because you lost a ship or got scammed? Live and learn and move-on.
Meykud Khamsi Hedion University Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2015.10.20 21:36:23 - [23] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: [quote=Meykud Khamsi] You're clearly emotional right now and lashing out. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. It happens to everyone at different times. I hope after you calm down though that you are able to see that it wasn't the games fault. The responsibility for loss, especially to scams, is individual. Not the games fault. Your responsibility. That for many people is the beauty of Eve. It doesn't hold anyone's hand. A couple of things: 1. As I'm sure you people already know (as any time anyone mentions a problem with EVE the first thing you do is check the killboards and then bash them for losing a ship and call them stupid) I have not lost anything. I'm entirely not emotional right now. I'm just pointing out what's obvious to anybody who doesn't invest a large amount of his or her wellbeing in their ability to grief people in EVE. 2. The lectures on the EVE mindset, etc... are pretty humorous to me. I won't bother telling you what I do in real life, because it'll just spawn more flaming and disbelief. But it's much harder, much more unforgiving, and much more rewarding than anything that happens in EVE, I promise you. So, I get what you're saying -- I really do. But, see, EVE is a game. And somewhere in the definition of a game is some sort of enjoyable experience. And EVE, compared to many other games that are equal parts hard and fulfilling, has a pretty poor fun:difficulty ratio. And it's mostly related to the awful sorts of people who play it the most, like it the most, and lawyer the rules against less experienced players. Cheers, Meykud
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 40549	Posted - 2015.10.20 21:38:22 - [24] - Quote Meykud Khamsi wrote: So, one of these people has $15 per month to spend on a game. They can either spend it on a game that's really challenging, but doable, and enjoy themselves, feel a sense of hard-earned accomplishment, and slowly accomplish interesting things in the company of good people. Or they can pay CCP that $15 to pretty much let people like you rub their faces in **** for two years before they figure out how to have even a cursory fulfillment. Why would that person spend that $15 on EVE? For the pleasure of your company? For me personally, you nailed on the head very clearly why I love this game. Because even though it's just a game, the sense of hard-earned accomplishment and the satisfaction in slowly achieving tasks is so much greater because of the possibility that it can all be lost at any point. Just a game, but such an emotional ride at times. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Arla Sarain 679	Posted - 2015.10.20 21:39:07 - [25] - Quote Meykud Khamsi wrote: Why would that person spend that $15 on EVE? For the pleasure of your company? Again, why would anybody pay for this? Cheers, Meykud So go make a brand new game that's copy pasted with all the qualities of other games that are so popular and see how the money making goes...
Bobb Bobbington The Cult of the Rare Pepes 79	Posted - 2015.10.20 21:45:25 - [26] - Quote You see, there's your problem. You believe a game should be fun. That's your singular and narrow view on all of the gaming community. But we, well we don't play for fun. "We play Eve not because it is easy, but because it is hard"! Personally, I take Eve as a challenge, a problem.. I take delite in in bumping my wallet up and killing people, because I know that I did that, despite the fact that others tried to stop me. That I traded my way to 3 bil, that I beat a player who tried to do kill me back, etc. Us Eve players, we're in for the long haul. We don't seek gratification, we want that deep sense of accomplishment despite that people wanted to stop us. You just have to understand that.
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 40549	Posted - 2015.10.20 21:46:27 - [27] - Quote Meykud Khamsi wrote: ...somewhere in the definition of a game is some sort of enjoyable experience. Can you understand though that there is no single definition of what "enjoyable experience" means? In a kind of twisted way, Eve has the potential to appeal to a wider range of players than most other games, specifically because of it's freedoms and ability for people to choose what they want to do. It provides us all with the ability to find what we individually consider enjoyable experiences. But in doing so, what you consider enjoyable might clash with an activity that someone else feels is enjoyable and at some point you win, while at another time you lose. It happens to everyone. Meykud Khamsi wrote: I'm entirely not emotional right now. Ok. Fair enough. My misunderstanding. Your writing is very aggressive and judgemental. It seems to be quite emotional, rather than the way most people write/talk normally. So sorry for the mistake on my part. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 25457	Posted - 2015.10.20 21:49:17 - [28] - Quote Meykud Khamsi wrote: So, one of these people has $15 per month to spend on a game. They can either spend it on a game that's really challenging, but doable, and enjoy themselves, feel a sense of hard-earned accomplishment, and slowly accomplish interesting things in the company of good people. I, and I assume the majority of people who like Eve, are this person. We pay our $15 to play the sort of game that you describe, it's called Eve and we enjoy the challenge of surviving it. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Hengle Teron Order In Disorder Virtus Crusade Protectorate 58536	Posted - 2015.10.20 21:49:22 - [29] - Quote I know right. Isn't it nicer, in all those games, where you grind for gear, so you can then grind for better gear ?
Marsha Mallow 2654	Posted - 2015.10.20 21:51:04 - [30] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: It doesn't hold anyone's hand. I thought we were supposed to hold each other, or bite each other depending upon preference. Alternating you get the best of both worlds. Meykud wrote: snip 1. I didn't look. But don't class shooting spaceships and looting people as griefing tbh. We put it back in by chatting in rookie chat, helping new players, answering convos after fights. There's massive amounts of altruism and genuine kindness to strangers ingame. 2. Not a lecture. But I worked as a cleaner on an Intensive Care Unit when I was 16, went on to do Special Care, Cancer Wards and A&E. Family are all nurses anyway, it was like growing up in a nursey barracks because I lived in a hospital house as a child. So ye, watching actual people die - rather than digital characters, gives you perspective. And it's not intended as a lecture - I hate being patronised too. If you don't enjoy being challenged like this, don't do it. Either play something else, or find ways ingame to mitigate the risk so you can play quietly. But that's for you to find, not us. We can only point the way. Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: TO THE PITCHFORKMOBILE! Benny Ohu wrote: fire up the argument calibrators set phasers to outraged overheat keyboards reinforce the thread Jenn aSide wrote: does anyone have any assless chaps I could borrow?

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