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Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
989
   |
Posted - 2015.11.05 03:47:36 -
[1] - Quote
So, was having a discussion with another player on an F&I topic.
First, let me put it into context.
The entire thread was about a proposed change to wardec mechanics.
This discussion went quite a bit off topic, some choice words were thrown around, some ranting was applied here and there, thus the thread was closed after repeated warning.
I may or may not have been a cause in that.. I'm not really sure.
The claim was made that wardecs are broken which is why NPC corps are so popular.
The claims made by the person I disagreed with were that wardecs were fine and that NPC corps were the issue, to which he proposed harsh penalties for being in NPC corps in order to "incentivize" players to join player corps.
Based on his claims (being the issue is NPC corps and not decs)
I posed a question, to which I got no answer.
The question was.
"Provide me with a game mechanic in Eve to which being in a NPC corp is better than being in a player corp, in which wardecs are not a factor."
My claim was that if he could not provide me with a game mechanic that met this criteria, then he was false in his claims of NPC corps being broken and wardecs being fine.
He also claimed that it was a trick question.
I agree that it was a trick question.
However, it was a viable question, non the less, given his claims.
So, does anyone have an answer to the question, or is it true that wardec mechanics are the only mechanic to which being in an NPC corp is a better option?
Sidenote - I'm not asking you to denounce the current wardec mechanics.
I'm simply asking whether you have an answer to the question, or if my claim (or is it true that wardec mechanics are the only mechanic to which being in an NPC corp is a better option) is correct.
If you'd like discussing potential changes to the wardec mechanic and/or disagree with any changes being made, please refer to this thread. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
40723
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 03:58:01 -
[2] - Quote
The focus solely on game mechanics diminishes the importance that people play in the game, even though particularly in relation to joining a player Corp, that may be equally important to the decision someone makes.
So I don't think it's possible to reduce the issue of NPC v player Corp down to just one aspect.
But as to the issue of mechanics, wardec immunity is the only advantage of an NPC Corp in my opinion (which means no more than anyone who has a different view) and that doesn't mean wardec mechanics are broken either.
Additionally, there is no single answer to this question that is right. Balance of opinion within GD might not even be right, so it's a kind of futile question.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
989
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 04:10:25 -
[3] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:The focus solely on game mechanics diminishes the importance that people play in the game, even though particularly in relation to joining a player Corp, that may be equally important to the decision someone makes.
So I don't think it's possible to reduce the issue of NPC v player Corp down to just one aspect.
But as to the issue of mechanics, wardec immunity is the only advantage of an NPC Corp in my opinion (which means no more than anyone who has a different view) and that doesn't mean wardec mechanics are broken either.
Additionally, there is no single answer to this question that is right. Balance of opinion within GD might not even be right, so it's a kind of futile question.
Well you do have to factor personal perspective into any decision.
Also, the only purpose of me bringing up the discussion on broken mechanics was to put the question into context.
So, without considering the balance of any mechanics, or personal perspective.
Are there any mechanics within Eve that are best done in an NPC corp, without wardecs being a factor as to why it's best done in an NPC corp?
I do like youre politically correct answer though. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
40724
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 04:22:17 -
[4] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
I do like youre politically correct answer though.
**** political correctness. It's possible to hold an opinion without considering what's PC or not. It just happens to be what I think.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Squids
25972
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 04:29:23 -
[5] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:"Provide me with a game mechanic in Eve to which being in a NPC corp is better than being in a player corp, in which wardecs are not a factor."
Why would anyone bother answering this question?
If an NPC Corp doesn't have wardec immunity, no one has an issue with them anymore. It's as simple as that.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
989
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 05:32:55 -
[6] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:
Why would anyone bother answering this question?
If an NPC Corp doesn't have wardec immunity, no one has an issue with them anymore. It's as simple as that.
Valid point.
However, if wardecs were removed, no one would have an issue with NPC wardec immunity.
(No, I am not suggesting wardec removal. See the thread I link as an example) Just providing a counter-point to your statement.
I'm not trying to further my point.
I'm just asking a serious question to see if there is anything.
Maybe I should rephrase it.
Is there any reason to choose an NPC corp of an player corp, apart from wardec immunity?
Yeah, that's pretty much the same question, but i'm trying to express that I'm asking the question to see if there is a valid answer.
I'm not fishing, but seriously wondering what merit an NPC corp serves.
This isn't to say that they should be removed, or to say that wardecs need to change / go away so that NPC corps are less viable. That's a discussion to be had on another thread, and comments posted here will NOT be used to feed any other threads (at least by me.... Me referring to the physical person and not the toon), I have more honor than that.
I'm just seriously wondering if there is an answer to that question.
It's kind of a philosophical question(like the chicken or the egg), but an answer, or lack their of, may give CCP an idea on how to address wardecs, NPC, or both, as the two kind of contradict each other as far as I'm concerned. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1069
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 05:48:54 -
[7] - Quote
Quote:"Provide me with a game mechanic in Eve to which being in a NPC corp is better than being in a player corp, in which wardecs are not a factor."
My claim was that if he could not provide me with a game mechanic that met this criteria, then he was false in his claims of NPC corps being broken and wardecs being fine.
He also claimed that it was a trick question.
I agree that it was a trick question.
However, it was a viable question, non the less, given his claims.
It wasn't really a trick question as it was you positing an argument premised on "logic" having a definition that is entirely malleable and subject to whimsy. 
Argumentative Calvin-Ball, pretty much.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
|
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
40727
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 05:52:51 -
[8] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:I'm just seriously wondering if there is an answer to that question.
You can answer that for yourself.
It's not a question asking for facts. Its purely asking for opinion and there is no right or wrong opinion and no opinion anyone else expresses is any more correct than your own.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Squids
25979
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 05:54:35 -
[9] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Is there any reason to choose an NPC corp of an player corp, apart from wardec immunity?
1. Vs. corps run by other people:
-So I don't get kicked off if I'm an inactive player
-Having to interact with undesirables
-Having to commit to things I'm not interested in
2. Vs. 1 person corps:
-None
Why would we have a game mechanic (wardec immunity) to cater to "1"?
"2" is a better solution for antisocials.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
989
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 05:55:19 -
[10] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:It wasn't really a trick question as it was you positing an argument premised on "logic" having a definition that is entirely malleable and subject to whimsy. Argumentative Calvin-Ball, pretty much.
Yeah...... I'm not one to pretend I know what you're saying.
I'll be honest and say I don't understand you.
It may be that I don't know the premise of Calvin-Ball, or it may be that I have astigmatism, dyslexia, and minor comprehension issues as a result.
You'll have to break that down for me Barnie style, because I am apparently not intellectual enough to understand. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
989
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 06:04:43 -
[11] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Is there any reason to choose an NPC corp of an player corp, apart from wardec immunity? 1. Vs. corps run by other people: -So I don't get kicked off if I'm an inactive player -Having to interact with undesirables -Having to commit to things I'm not interested in 2. Vs. 1 person corps: -None Why would we have a game mechanic (wardec immunity) to cater to "1"? "2" is a better solution for antisocials.
Ehh... those aren't really game mechanics though...
I realize there are personal reasons for choosing to stay in an NPC corp, but that's not the question.
For instance, If there were a mechanic to which explorers had a higher drop chance on items as a result of being in an NPC corp, then that would be a game mechanic in which being in an NPC corp is the best option.
Granted, that not an actual mechanic, but an example of what I'm asking.
Remove personal preference as a factor, remove wardecs as a factor.
So, we're not speaking about what suits the individual, and we're not talking about wardec immunity.
Is there a mechanic in which being in an NPC corp has a measurable benefit?
I'm probably beating around the bush with this....
Sorry guys, but it's like one of those things that pesters you until you figure it out.
Kinda like trying to remember the name of a movie, but googling quotes and/or the premise of the movie isn't yielding a result. |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Squids
25983
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 06:06:21 -
[12] - Quote
Answer is "no", even for CAS. Any rando can come participate in CAS activities without being in CAS.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
989
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 06:14:08 -
[13] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:
Answer is "no", even for CAS. Any rando can come participate in CAS activities without being in CAS.
off topic, but I'm not familiar with CAS.. |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Squids
25984
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 06:17:41 -
[14] - Quote
It's the only NPC Corp worth being in from a social and learning the game point of view. CAS has infrastructure for mining fleets, roams, mission coops, null and WH activity. CAS chat is nearly always active, even moreso than Jita Local after you block the scammers.
At present it's totally unlike any other NPC Corp. It has some few similarities to Scope in its heyday.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
|
Otso Bakarti
Filial Pariahs
447
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 10:29:28 -
[15] - Quote
"Provide me with a game mechanic in Eve to which being in a NPC corp is better than being in a player corp, in which wardecs are not a factor." .... Okay .... my activity is "emergent game play, therefore "content". Ergo, when I play I don't want to be forced to be in a corporation you might be in, as then I'd be forced to play with YOU which I do not want to do.
So...what's my prize?
Fear of death follows from fear of life. A man who lives fully is prepared to die at any time. -Mark Twain -
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
990
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 14:41:08 -
[16] - Quote
Otso Bakarti wrote:"Provide me with a game mechanic in Eve to which being in a NPC corp is better than being in a player corp, in which wardecs are not a factor." .... Okay .... my activity is "emergent game play, therefore "content". Ergo, when I play I don't want to be forced to be in a corporation you might be in, as then I'd be forced to play with YOU which I do not want to do.
So...what's my prize?
It was a good attempt, but that is personal preference and not a game mechanic favoring the NPC corp. |
Malbona Pomon
Petulant Luddite GmbH
4
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 16:18:08 -
[17] - Quote
Your question is fundamentally flawed as corps are not a game mechanic in EvE but a way to give form to the desires of the players while supported by game mechanics.
If you desire maximum safety and security, then the NPC run corps provide this, slightly less safety for the FW NPC corps. All your risk is controlled solely by you. Your corp mates are pvprs, gankers, scammer, pirates, trolls, awoxers, corp thieves, botters, war dodgers, newbies, vets, and honest players; but none of that effects you. Your will and choices are all that matters and applies solely to you.
If you desire true adventure, then Player Corps can provide this. You are now affected by the whims and behavior of others outside your control. For this your collected will can be exercised to the fullest extent allowable.
From a net +/- perspective NPC corps are superior to Player Corps, they offer Stability, Relative Safety, and Security. However from the Player Corp perspective they are broken in that mechanically they will never truly be a part of anything built by the desires of others. While an NPC corp is by definition and organization, it has no desires, no will, and thus all interactions with it are solely with individuals. |
Ajunta Pal
Sith Wannabies Annonymous
28
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 17:39:14 -
[18] - Quote
Well, there is corp tax, some player corps have a higher tax than the NPC corps. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
990
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 17:48:18 -
[19] - Quote
Ajunta Pal wrote:Well, there is corp tax, some player corps have a higher tax than the NPC corps.
Well.. That's more of a player related issue. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9549
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 20:41:40 -
[20] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
Is there any reason to choose an NPC corp of an player corp, apart from wardec immunity?
I have a one-man corp. I also have a corp with just a few players in it ( under 10). As well, I have characters in large player corps as well as NPC corps.
Which one do I prefer? NPC in general and CAS in particular.
Lots of active players to chat with. Lots of events to participate in. No CEO telling me what to fly, when to fly it , and how to fit it.
Wardecs don't even enter the equation. It's just a better social game.
Mr Epeen 
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Ajunta Pal
Sith Wannabies Annonymous
28
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 08:33:54 -
[21] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Ajunta Pal wrote:Well, there is corp tax, some player corps have a higher tax than the NPC corps. Well.. That's more of a player related issue.
So is NPC corps to avoid war decs, the reason I mentioned tax is cause you can just go to an NPC corp to avoid tax - same as a war dec |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
990
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 14:53:32 -
[22] - Quote
Ajunta Pal wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Ajunta Pal wrote:Well, there is corp tax, some player corps have a higher tax than the NPC corps. Well.. That's more of a player related issue. So is NPC corps to avoid war decs, the reason I mentioned tax is cause you can just go to an NPC corp to avoid tax - same as a war dec
I agree with that, however, it's not the best option.
If you're trying to avoid high taxes, you can join another player corp with a more typical 5% tax rate.
If you're running from a high corporate tax rate, then you're running from that corp and/or the leadership that dictated that tax rate.
So, it's not the mechanic itself, but the individual use of the mechanic. |
Emotional Constipation
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 23:16:08 -
[23] - Quote
I have seen who you were trying to argue with and tbh you were wasting your time,
and in this thread you are wasting your time, just take the answer you want and roll with it,
congrats, you were right and all of your ideas were fantastic and should be fully endorsed by CCP.
then again, maybe I am taking too many of these tablets and should go to bed.
but but I am right, someone agree with me,
Yes , No, oops I seem to have forgotten anything you said about the question you didn't want answered about the mechanics you wanted interpreted by players with differing opinions about what you wanted to interpret in a manner completely in line with your judgement to the manner of who really cares anyway, shall we put the kettle on and have a cookie ?
Does that answer you ? |
Jenshae Chiroptera
2374
|
Posted - 2015.11.07 00:06:55 -
[24] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:... Are there any mechanics within Eve that are best done in an NPC corp, without wardecs being a factor as to why it's best done in an NPC corp? .... Drama.
NPC corps have no mechanics for other players to kick you out of the group.
They are the ultimate in casual EVE gaming. The only way to improve them in this regard would be for people to be able to chose which one they want to join at any point in the game. There is no requirement on attendance, no demands on people doing operations. You are your own free person and what activity you have with that group is entirely up to you.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
There are other ways to fix Null Sec stagnation and Fozzie SOV is the wrong approach.
|
Angel T Hunter
Repo.
32
|
Posted - 2015.11.07 15:52:39 -
[25] - Quote
problem is not wardecs or NPC corporations..
the problem is CONCORD.
move out of hisec and problem is solved.. |
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