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Kira Lamaar	Posted - 2007.01.05 21:16:00 - [1] Edited by: Kira Lamaar on 05/01/2007 21:25:06 I'm still kind of new at this, and have two questions : 1. Is what my friends are telling me about war dec costs being dropped from +-50m ISK / week to 2m ISK / week true? 2. If so : What is the reason for this?/ As far as I can tell (only 2 months old), it's dead easy for a solo player to make 2m ISK in a day. 4 or 5 L2 missions and you're set. How much easier would it be for a corp with 10+ members to collect 2m ISK / week? Since wardec's allow you to attack and kill players in High Sec, I can see a HUGE increase in wardecs as a result of people wanting to be pirates, but not having the balls to have a negative Sec rating and stay in 0.0. As far as I can tell, this simply allows people with a little spare cash to move into an area, identify a starting corp and group-gank any players they come across. This sure as hell isn't noob friendly, and since it's permitted in High Sec, you're potentially going to have LOTS of unhappy starters. So far, my only experience with WarDec is some random corp, for some random (as yet still unexplained) reason has WarDec'd us. They've got no intention of pressing the war, they seldom enter our prime systems (because there's often 8/9 of us there). All they do is hang around in random groups and gank travellers, or use locator agents to gank/station-lock any member who's off doing a few missions. Since it's so cheap, they can keep this up indefinately. I kinda thought the point of a WarDec was so that you could have a war with an enemy corp, not so that you could engage in a little piracy, in HighSec and still keep your Sec Status up. [edit2] And no, before you ask, I haven't been repeatedly ganked by them. I've been popped once when I got sloppy and killed 2 of them. It's just starting to become a minor annoyance now. [/edit2] Any comments or advice (not flames) requested.....
Marcathonas The Splinter Syndicate SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.05 21:19:00 - [2] 2m is for a corp, I think. And yes, 2m is easy. It's one single 0.0 spawn.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.01.05 21:25:00 - [3] I dont think the cost was stopping them before... 50 mill is nothing for a corp. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Adoro Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.01.05 21:29:00 - [4] Originally by: Kira Lamaar Edited by: Kira Lamaar on 05/01/2007 21:25:06 I'm still kind of new at this, and have two questions : 1. Is what my friends are telling me about war dec costs being dropped from +-50m ISK / week to 2m ISK / week true? 2. If so : What is the reason for this?/ As far as I can tell (only 2 months old), it's dead easy for a solo player to make 2m ISK in a day. 4 or 5 L2 missions and you're set. How much easier would it be for a corp with 10+ members to collect 2m ISK / week? Since wardec's allow you to attack and kill players in High Sec, I can see a HUGE increase in wardecs as a result of people wanting to be pirates, but not having the balls to have a negative Sec rating and stay in 0.0. As far as I can tell, this simply allows people with a little spare cash to move into an area, identify a starting corp and group-gank any players they come across. This sure as hell isn't noob friendly, and since it's permitted in High Sec, you're potentially going to have LOTS of unhappy starters. So far, my only experience with WarDec is some random corp, for some random (as yet still unexplained) reason has WarDec'd us. They've got no intention of pressing the war, they seldom enter our prime systems (because there's often 8/9 of us there). All they do is hang around in random groups and gank travellers, or use locator agents to gank/station-lock any member who's off doing a few missions. Since it's so cheap, they can keep this up indefinately. I kinda thought the point of a WarDec was so that you could have a war with an enemy corp, not so that you could engage in a little piracy, in HighSec and still keep your Sec Status up. [edit2] And no, before you ask, I haven't been repeatedly ganked by them. I've been popped once when I got sloppy and killed 2 of them. It's just starting to become a minor annoyance now. [/edit2] Any comments or advice (not flames) requested..... Think you miss the point on how easy it is for a group of people to get isk. A single player can easily make 50mil a day. A corp can make billions a week. Thats 1,000,000,000 x a few Costs of war dec has never been really important. Except if you war dec whole eve -------- Originally by: ChalSto underestimate us one second and u¦ll mine veldspar in empire for the rest of ur eve-life The LV way
dailyhazard Caldari Kemono.	Posted - 2007.01.05 21:30:00 - [5] mostly always been 2m for a corp vs corp, 50m for alliance vs corp/corp vs alliance. Enjoy.
Kira Lamaar	Posted - 2007.01.05 21:39:00 - [6] Thanks for the information, everyone. Since it's starting to appear that it's always been this way (Question 1), Q2 no longer really needs to be answered. Fly safe.....
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Northern Intelligence SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.05 21:53:00 - [7] Corp wardecs should be more expensive. Alliance wardecs even more expensive. Cheap wardecs promote cheap kills and it is not good for newb, young and casual corps. War targets should not be too cheap like they are now. We should be giving new and young players good eVe experience and not chasing them away. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon.
Cmdr Sy Appetite 4 Destruction	Posted - 2007.01.05 22:25:00 - [8] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Corp wardecs should be more expensive. Alliance wardecs even more expensive. Cheap wardecs promote cheap kills and it is not good for newb, young and casual corps. War targets should not be too cheap like they are now. We should be giving new and young players good eVe experience and not chasing them away. What did you do to Jenny?
Kira Lamaar	Posted - 2007.01.07 13:39:00 - [9] I do tend to agree... war dec's should be FAR more expensive. Let's face it, what you're paying for is exemption from the Concord rules. That should be damned expensive. This would have two effects : 1. Reduce the number of completely random wardec's floating around (so being threatened with a wardec becomes more serious matter). And, most importantly : 2. Return a war dec to what it should be... a declaration of war. They'll likely not last longer than 1/2 weeks, but there will be strong incentive for the Declaring corp to actually co-ordinate and proceed with organised attacks on the Declaree. Should make for much more interesting combat than the current ****ing around.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.07 13:46:00 - [10] I think the cost of War Decs should matter. That isn't to say they should price people out of Wars, but it should be a little more than pocket money. Even if it were just 100mill a week for corps, 300 mill for alliances (say) that'd still atleast make you think about who you're deccing. Wouldbn't stop you, but it'd causee some thought. The current levels were set back before inflation, when 50 million was a small fortune. These days there are players who use that kind of money to throw at rogue drones for kicks. -----------------------------------------------

Kira Lamaar	Posted - 2007.01.07 14:08:00 - [11] That's certainly true, Patch.... there really don't seem to be too many ISK-removal-devices in EVE. More ISK is always flowing in (from ratting, missions etc.), but apart from a few kinds of purchases, very little ISK is actually being REMOVED from the game. Sure, there are skill and BPO purchases, but they're once off, and easily recouped. The ISKies are all just changing hands. As such, the volume of ISK is rapidly growing, while the actual economic backing (if such a thing is applicable to Eve) is remaining relatively constant. Thus, we're left with the uber-inflation currently going around. In the real world, EVE would be classed as a hyper-inflationary economy, and almost nobody would actually use it as a currency. We need some ISK sinks in Eve. Tax is always a good one. And, as with most tax systems, it should be applied hardest to those with the most ISK. Potentially, the bounties on rats should decline over time (or possibly, smaller and smaller rats should spawn). After all.... it's completely unreasonable to assume that these rats could field 1m ISK bounty BS after BS after BS for the convenience of those rat-camping in 0.0. Eventually the rats are going to run out of BS's and have to start on BC's. And they'll only be worth 500k ISK. It should probably be based on a "Only so many kills per hour or spawns drop by a level" kind of system to reduce camping. Even the rats aren't stupid... they shouldn't keep coming back for an own-aging time after time after time. Finally, missions. I like 'em. I mission a lot. But it's completely unreasonable that the dude will hand out 1m ISK / hour (only on L2 missions so far) for hours at a time to 50 different people, all missioning in the same 4/5 systems. Repeated missions should net less rewards over time. Increase LP rewards if you have to (after all, the guy should be grateful you're helping him out once he can't pay you any more). Go work with more than 1/2 agents, and see everything EVE has to offer.....
Apocryphai Caldari	Posted - 2007.01.07 15:59:00 - [12] Edited by: Apocryphai on 07/01/2007 15:58:20 Originally by: Kira Lamaar In the real world, EVE would be classed as a hyper-inflationary economy, and almost nobody would actually use it as a currency. People keep saying this but it just isn't true. Prices of commodities in EVE are pretty stable. Look at T1 ships and modules. Prices for them have stayed almost the same for years. There's almost no margin left on BS's for instance since the price is locked (in Empire anyway) at only a few % above manufacture cost. There's small fluctuations as mineral prices change, but they're small. NOT "hyper-inflationary" by any stretch of the imagination. Now look at things that aren't commodities (if you're unsure what I mean by commodity then look it up, it's basic economic theory) - i.e. tech 2. Tech 2 supply is artificially limited and thus it is hard to find real-world economic parallels since EVE's economy is very unrealistic because of this limitation. But even tech2 prices aren't hyper-inflationary. Sure, prices increase, HACs are the best example, prices have roughly doubled over the course of 6-12 months, but that's NOT hyper-inflation. If EVE's economy was hyper-inflationary then HACs would cost 10's of billions by now, BS's would cost billions, shuttles would cost 100 million. But they don't. So nyurr nyurrr nyurrr! edit: Oh I forgot, the original point of this thread, hehe sorry. I don't think single war-decs are too cheap tbh. At this level they're within the reach of pretty much any 1 or 2-man corp of they so desire. However the escalation of war-dec costs should be more dramatic I feel. It should be harder to issue multiple war-decs, but then that's an anti-griefing perspective and we all know that CCP want to encourage as much griefing as they possibly can Originally by: Victor Valka What the skull-chick said.
Kerik Igan Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.01.07 16:29:00 - [13] Maybe have cost brackets, ie different cost between 5 people corp and a 50 man... That would give some balance to large corps bossing around smaller corps. If someone wants to war, let them war, its a way of life, chances are things wont change much --WTB AVITAR--
Makree Ubar Asteroid Hugging Collective	Posted - 2007.01.07 16:58:00 - [14] Originally by: Kira Lamaar We need some ISK sinks in Eve. Train to fly a capital ship and then you will see a few sinks. I haven't been so poor in ages.
Jameroz Independent Frontiers Chorus of Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.07 17:04:00 - [15] Yeah think corp war declares should be atleast 100mil Wars are cool but I don't like the fact that they can go on forever basicly... If some corps really want to fight against each other they can make the war mutual. Independent Frontiers is recruiting
Paladineguru Gallente DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.07 17:55:00 - [16] Edited by: Paladineguru on 07/01/2007 17:53:01 Originally by: Makree Originally by: Kira Lamaar We need some ISK sinks in Eve. Train to fly a capital ship and then you will see a few sinks. I haven't been so poor in ages. QFT I went from billionare to broke just getting into carrier , dread, and some skills. contrary to empire rumor most 0.0 people arent uber uber rich, you lose too much in the course of earning your right to be there regardless if you pvp or 0.0 industry . war decs should be expensive to the instigator. he should be ****ed off enough to want to spend money for the right to kill you. 2 m is a joke any player with a alt could make that and keep it up indefinetly just using it to exploit the wardec system as a means to turn supposed safe (er) space into his own personal 0.0. While i dont think eve should be a soft place. the newb learning area aka empire should be a resonable place for a person to have a chance to learn the basics of the game before being overwhelmed by bored older in game char's.
Dane Hur Caldari Bloody Needles	Posted - 2007.01.07 19:45:00 - [17] The cost is fine, I would hate to waste a lot of isk on wardecd on corps that hides on stations all day long.
Xharky	Posted - 2007.01.07 20:59:00 - [18] Originally by: Apocryphai Edited by: Apocryphai on 07/01/2007 15:58:20 Originally by: Kira Lamaar In the real world, EVE would be classed as a hyper-inflationary economy, and almost nobody would actually use it as a currency. People keep saying this but it just isn't true. Prices of commodities in EVE are pretty stable. Look at T1 ships and modules. Prices for them have stayed almost the same for years. There's almost no margin left on BS's for instance since the price is locked (in Empire anyway) at only a few % above manufacture cost. There's small fluctuations as mineral prices change, but they're small. NOT "hyper-inflationary" by any stretch of the imagination. Now look at things that aren't commodities (if you're unsure what I mean by commodity then look it up, it's basic economic theory) - i.e. tech 2. Tech 2 supply is artificially limited and thus it is hard to find real-world economic parallels since EVE's economy is very unrealistic because of this limitation. But even tech2 prices aren't hyper-inflationary. Sure, prices increase, HACs are the best example, prices have roughly doubled over the course of 6-12 months, but that's NOT hyper-inflation. If EVE's economy was hyper-inflationary then HACs would cost 10's of billions by now, BS's would cost billions, shuttles would cost 100 million. But they don't. So nyurr nyurrr nyurrr! edit: Oh I forgot, the original point of this thread, hehe sorry. I don't think single war-decs are too cheap tbh. At this level they're within the reach of pretty much any 1 or 2-man corp of they so desire. However the escalation of war-dec costs should be more dramatic I feel. It should be harder to issue multiple war-decs, but then that's an anti-griefing perspective and we all know that CCP want to encourage as much griefing as they possibly can The prices of commodities like T1 modules are capped due to mineral price, and mineral prices are capped due to you being able to purchase certain T1 stuff from NPCs and reprocess them for a profit. You can't really use T1 modules as a comparison for inflation :p unless CCP ups the price those stuff are sold at. -------------------- <&Hammerhead> Observator results make pretty good safe spots
Kira Lamaar	Posted - 2007.01.08 00:18:00 - [19] Originally by: Apocryphai Edited by: Apocryphai on 07/01/2007 15:58:20 People keep saying this but it just isn't true. Prices of commodities in EVE are pretty stable. Look at T1 ships and modules. Prices for them have stayed almost the same for years. There's almost no margin left on BS's for instance since the price is locked (in Empire anyway) at only a few % above manufacture cost. There's small fluctuations as mineral prices change, but they're small. NOT "hyper-inflationary" by any stretch of the imagination. Now look at things that aren't commodities (if you're unsure what I mean by commodity then look it up, it's basic economic theory) - i.e. tech 2. Tech 2 supply is artificially limited and thus it is hard to find real-world economic parallels since EVE's economy is very unrealistic because of this limitation. But even tech2 prices aren't hyper-inflationary. Sure, prices increase, HACs are the best example, prices have roughly doubled over the course of 6-12 months, but that's NOT hyper-inflation. If EVE's economy was hyper-inflationary then HACs would cost 10's of billions by now, BS's would cost billions, shuttles would cost 100 million. But they don't. So nyurr nyurrr nyurrr! edit: Oh I forgot, the original point of this thread, hehe sorry. I don't think single war-decs are too cheap tbh. At this level they're within the reach of pretty much any 1 or 2-man corp of they so desire. However the escalation of war-dec costs should be more dramatic I feel. It should be harder to issue multiple war-decs, but then that's an anti-griefing perspective and we all know that CCP want to encourage as much griefing as they possibly can Sorry to tell you this, mate... but it's back to basic training for you. Hyper-inflation is described as any economy in which the value of the currency decreases by 30%+ per year over 3+ years. As a previous posted said... T1 cannot really be considered in this equation. Because of the prevalence of T2 in PvP (I for one have never been popped by anyone without T2, and I sure as hell don't exactly have a lot of kills to my name), anyone who wants in needs T2. Since EVE is about PvP...... T2 is the only real system of measurement, and by your OWN admission, many prices have doubled in a 6-12 month period. If that's not hyper-inflation, tell me what is.... However : Back on topic. I don't believe that wardecs should be within reach of every man and his dog. Come on, seriously.... do you REALLY think that you can buy off Concord with 2m ISK?!? Because that's basically what you're doing with a wardec. It should be horrendously expensive. Then you'll only declare it if there's a real reason (which will immediately remove the random decs so people can do a little "legitimate" piracy) and you'll keep it short and to the point (move into their system, kill or be killed, finish). None of this dragging on for weeks occasionally ganking a careless noob frigate with your uber-pwnage fleet of 2 BC's and a BS, because you lack the balls for a real fight. While I'm not particularly in favour of any more artificial restrictions on my games than necessary, SOMETHING needs to be done to protect reasonably new players. Because if it isn't, eventually the supply will dwindle, and we'll be out of a game. I've seen it on several other games I play, and I'd HATE to see it on EVE too.
Sovy Kurosei Amarr Therianthropic Technologies	Posted - 2007.01.08 00:25:00 - [20] Originally by: Kira Lamaar SOMETHING needs to be done to protect reasonably new players. There is. Stay in the rookie corporation. No fear of getting wardecced there. Originally by: Kira Lamaar Because if it isn't, eventually the supply will dwindle, and we'll be out of a game. I've seen it on several other games I play, and I'd HATE to see it on EVE too. Eve's subscription numbers have gone steadily up man. ___________________

Lunarmist	Posted - 2007.01.08 00:48:00 - [21] With the amount of isk around, I think corp wardec and alliance war dec fee should be increased. For corp to corp war dec, cost should now be 50m. For alliance to alliance war dec, cost should be 150m. This would be a great money sink with the current amount of wars going on. The price we got right now is just too cheap.
Audri Fisher Caldari The Keep THE R0CK	Posted - 2007.01.08 01:51:00 - [22] Originally by: Sovy Kurosei Originally by: Kira Lamaar SOMETHING needs to be done to protect reasonably new players. There is. Stay in the rookie corporation. No fear of getting wardecced there. Originally by: Kira Lamaar Because if it isn't, eventually the supply will dwindle, and we'll be out of a game. I've seen it on several other games I play, and I'd HATE to see it on EVE too. Eve's subscription numbers have gone steadily up man. Players should not stay in noob corps forever. Uping the cost of a war dec is about the best idea I have heard to coax peopleout of noobie corps.
Sovy Kurosei Amarr Therianthropic Technologies	Posted - 2007.01.08 02:12:00 - [23] Originally by: Audri Fisher Players should not stay in noob corps forever. Uping the cost of a war dec is about the best idea I have heard to coax peopleout of noobie corps. New players can stay in rookie corps until they feel confident in going out on their own in the big bad world of New Eden. Or join an already existing corporation if you don't feel ready. ___________________
Kira Lamaar	Posted - 2007.01.10 02:57:00 - [24] Originally by: Sovy Kurosei Originally by: Kira Lamaar SOMETHING needs to be done to protect reasonably new players. There is. Stay in the rookie corporation. No fear of getting wardecced there. Originally by: Kira Lamaar Because if it isn't, eventually the supply will dwindle, and we'll be out of a game. I've seen it on several other games I play, and I'd HATE to see it on EVE too. Eve's subscription numbers have gone steadily up man. You're not very smart, are you? WHY should rookie players be restricted to noob corps, just because YOU don't want to pay more for your cheap ganks? The best way to learn is from other players, and there's only so much you can get from the Help channel. In case you hadn't noticed, Eve is an MMO. By it's very nature, it's a social exercise. People WANT to make friends and join together in groups. The noob corps simply don't support this. There's far too many people to get to know, far too many joining and far too many leaving continually to really form bonds with anyone. Why should we be stuck in a noob corp for 6 months until we're capable of standing on our own (because without good help and advice that's how long it's going to take). And sure.... subscriber numbers have gone up. On average, there's 25000 people logged in to EVE. But it's such a vast world that there are numerous systems completely unpopulated. Don't know whether CCP has released subscriber information, but based on estimates from other games, I'd guess we have around 300,000 unique subscribers. WoW has 8 million. Imagine what CCP could do if they had even 1 million subscribers? Ultimately, however, people leave for lots of reasons (stop gaming, no money, change games etc.). Unless we keep bringing in new blood, eventually we'll lose the game. My point is that the short-sighted attitudes of people like you are costing us player-base. More people = more fun. It also equals a stronger game-base that's likely to last longer. So think about that the next time you decide that newbies should take care of themselves.....
Speed Devil Caldari Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.10 03:52:00 - [25] leave the price to wardec as it is imo there are also new players that are NOT carebears... in the beginning of their career they wont make alot of cash either just like any other starter. if they want to pvp they got to wait untill they got a **load of cash to spend for a wardec... and from what i know, people still earn as much as like a year ago Originally by:** Merkanas To people who can't understand: there are rules and there are morals, don't get them confused. If rules allow it and you have no moral objection, by all means... have fun.
Cleptopatra	Posted - 2007.01.10 04:20:00 - [26] Originally by: Speed Devil leave the price to wardec as it is imo there are also new players that are NOT carebears... in the beginning of their career they wont make alot of cash either just like any other starter. if they want to pvp they got to wait untill they got a ****load of cash to spend for a wardec... and from what i know, people still earn as much as like a year ago Or they could go to low-sec/0.0 like real pirates/pvp'ers. Ever think of that? Oh... PA. I guess not.
SSgt Sniper Gallente Zekarus Ltd.	Posted - 2007.01.10 04:37:00 - [27] Originally by: Sovy Kurosei Originally by: Kira Lamaar SOMETHING needs to be done to protect reasonably new players. There is. Stay in the rookie corporation. No fear of getting wardecced there. Originally by: Kira Lamaar Because if it isn't, eventually the supply will dwindle, and we'll be out of a game. I've seen it on several other games I play, and I'd HATE to see it on EVE too. Eve's ALT subscription numbers have gone steadily up man. Fixed. --------- Representing all the casual gamers happily living in Empire, that want NO PART of your 0.0 annoyances. However, I do not represent my corp. We vote first.
Lowanaera Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2007.01.10 05:50:00 - [28] Alliance war costs are seriously out of line for smaller alliances when there are multiple parties involved. For example, the latest war between Amarr and Matari loyalists has -VV- deccing EM at 150m per week, NMTZ deccing -VV- at 150m per week, CVA deccing EM and NMTZ at 300m per week, plus corporate war costs for EM and NMTZ against PIE.... CAIN has already had to drop the war because they couldn't sustain 200m per week to dec EM. While CVA and NMTZ are larger alliances, EM and -VV- are both quite small and these costs seriously limit how long we can sustain the war. The only people the current alliance costs really seem in line for are larger 0.0 alliances.... who don't need Empire war decs anyway... It would be much more reasonable to have some kind of cost-adjustment based on size factored in, i.e. you're paying 10m for 100 alliance-members and 100m for 1000 alliance-members.
Speed Devil Caldari Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.10 06:26:00 - [29] Originally by: Cleptopatra Originally by: Speed Devil leave the price to wardec as it is imo there are also new players that are NOT carebears... in the beginning of their career they wont make alot of cash either just like any other starter. if they want to pvp they got to wait untill they got a **load of cash to spend for a wardec... and from what i know, people still earn as much as like a year ago Or they could go to low-sec/0.0 like real pirates/pvp'ers. Ever think of that? Oh... PA. I guess not. ever went to lowsec to go pirating? :) lack of targets and warp to 0km made me change to highsec piracy where the real money is at and i like it in empire since theres no interdictors or bubblegatecamps to ruin ur day... Originally by:** Merkanas To people who can't understand: there are rules and there are morals, don't get them confused. If rules allow it and you have no moral objection, by all means... have fun.


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