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Ogdru Jahad
Amarr
Dark Entropy
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Posted - 2007.01.05 22:10:00 -
[1]
ok bottom line is...
I am looking at flying one of there. I know the mach you can get way less cheaper than the Vindi. ( key reason i am considering )
what i wanna know is. apart from weapons used. what are the key differences?
can the mach armour tank? or is it a better shield tanker?
ultimatly i would be flying both. and have weapons for each. but I have only flowen mostly amarr ships. and the odd caldari with my old chr ( dont really wanna go caldari again )
what i am seeking is. what is better? and why! please keep this civil.
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During the extended downtime |
Rehmes
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Posted - 2007.01.05 22:34:00 -
[2]
Hmm though choice tbh, though i prefer the Mach, btw if your trying to use it in pvp then armor tank it since it leaves plenty of mids for EW to give the enemy a nightmare.
When it comes down to it its almost like comparing a mega and a tempest, yes the mega can outdmg the tempest but the tempest has the agility to move around mroe freely and like stated before the mids for more EW. It all comes down to preference.If its for pve then drop these and get a CNR or Rattlesnake (though i know u said no caldari these r best for that task)
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Berrik Radhok
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.01.05 23:39:00 -
[3]
I would say the Machariel as well. Easier to fit and much cheaper.
 Originally by: Khavi Vetali
Oh don't worry, the goons are just as suicidal with their battleships as they are with their frigates.
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Lucian Alucard
Caldari
Forsaken Empire
The Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.06 00:00:00 -
[4]
each has its merits at range the mach is the best sniper in the game so for fleet actions hands down the mach wins, up close its a great armor tanker and decent sheild tanker, tho its armor is strong enough to hold up to the vindis onslaught it won't dish out the damage to kill the Vindi, sheild wise you opt for damage over defense you sheilds are weaker due to having less mid slots then say a temp even tho you have more hp in your sheilds. Up close the Mach is good but generally outclassed b a well kitted and skilled Vindi pilot.
But as you said expense is a factor and to be honest tho the vindi is better is it THAT much better? No, its all in your kit and what you want to do with it as well as your skills but if your going to fly the Mach and use it as a close range ship then your going to need both Minmatar and Gallente BS 5 to be truely effective in PVE and PVP.
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HankMurphy
Pelennor Swarm
Eternal Rangers of Terror
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Posted - 2007.01.06 00:24:00 -
[5]
they are sister ships. its six to one half dozen to the other.
the only reason for the price difference is there are more ppl carebearing 0.0 for machs than there are for vindi's.
go w/ your gun skills. if your higher in L proj, go w/ mach, if your better w/ hybrids stick w/ the vindi
also... i believe the machariel is the fastest battleship in the game... if that counts for anyting in your book (i know it does in mine)
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Ogdru Jahad
Amarr
Dark Entropy
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Posted - 2007.01.06 01:38:00 -
[6]
thanks for the replies guys...
This is for my 23.5m sp alt.
at the mo he is purely amarr specced altho he has all gunnery skills maxed out relating to any guns IE controlled bursts, sharp shooting etc.
What i may just do is. train up both ship skills to lvl 4. then decide, hybrids or projectile?
could a mach do a good passive shield tank if needed, ( altho the idea of training up shield tanking does not appeal to me ) My alt has good armour tanking.
what ever the case maybe I see ALOT of training ahead of me.
for the mach with gal and min bs lvl 4 and using large arties spec lvl4 and large AC spec lvl 4 would be
late april b4 it reached the stage I would fit onto it..
I guess same date for vindi now i look at it. just different wpns.
I see alot of thinkign once i hit lvl4 bs in each race. 
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During the extended downtime |
goodby4u
Logistic Technologies Incorporated
Free Trade Coalition
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Posted - 2007.01.06 02:13:00 -
[7]
Vindi is longlasting highspeed high damage mach is wtfpwnage speed and range,think of it like tempest vs mega...Cept the mega actually has a bonus to the mwd.
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Yes it is great being amarr. |
Grez
Minmatar
The Raven Warriors
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Posted - 2007.01.06 02:54:00 -
[8]
Vindi does far more damage, and lasts longer.
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Cache Clearer |
BananaREP
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Posted - 2007.01.16 11:53:00 -
[9]
more more more
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
MASS HOMICIDE
FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.16 12:09:00 -
[10]
Take vondicator, help keep machariel demand low son in next 2 weeks i can buy one.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!! |
Pan Crastus
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Posted - 2007.01.16 12:20:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Lucian Alucard
each has its merits at range the mach is the best sniper in the game so for fleet actions hands down the mach wins
lol? Even the crappy Maelstrom is a better sniper and so are Megathron, Rokh, Abaddon ...
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Red Harvest
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Posted - 2007.01.16 12:53:00 -
[12]
-Vindicator:
Special Ability: 25% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret damage
Gallente BS Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed per level
Minmatar BS Bonus: 10% Bonus to MicroWarpdrive capacitor penalty per level
-Machariel:
Special Ability: 25% bonus to Large Projectile Turret rate of fire
Minmatar BS Bonus: 5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage per level
Gallente BS Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret tracking speed
-Fitting exactly the same slot layout and PG/CPU only that the Vindicator can fit 1 more turret.
-Skill requirement also the same.
Now to the attributes (all pre-skill):
Vindicator
-armor 9298
-shield 8695
-hull 10500
-dronebay 125m3
-speed 125m/s
signature 400
Machariel
-armor 8695
-shield 9735
-hull 9298
-dronebay 75m3
-speed 196m/s
-signature 340
Vindicator does more dmg (blasters and extra drones) while the Machariel is a good bit faster (fastest BS ingame as far as i know) and has the advantage of non-cap weapons.
In the end both are very close and it really comes down to your skills.
Personal opinion is i like the machariel better (im flying one but never owned a vindicator so i cant really compare) because of its speed and its lovely looks.
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Doc Brown
Gallente
Tyrell Corp
INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2007.01.16 13:27:00 -
[13]
Given that your cap is the weakest part of the ship, go with the Mach. I wish the Vin would be better, but due to how the game is now (NOS) the Mach is by far the better choice. Having guns that don't use cap is a HUGH bonus.
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Proud member of Tyrell Corp. |
Vasiliyan
PAX Interstellar Services
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.16 13:37:00 -
[14]
Where do the Vindicators come from?
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
MASS HOMICIDE
FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.16 13:51:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Pan Crastus
Originally by: Lucian Alucard
each has its merits at range the mach is the best sniper in the game so for fleet actions hands down the mach wins
lol? Even the crappy Maelstrom is a better sniper and so are Megathron, Rokh, Abaddon ...
tell that to all the fleets of Tempestas around. Machariel has more DPS than all of those above exception of the Abbadon. its Damage*1.25*1.5 that is insane DPS for long range while with an uber AS. And as a gift a good tracking bonus.
Tell me how a mega can beat that!
If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!! |
Hotice
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Posted - 2007.01.16 13:55:00 -
[16]
I would shield tank Mach since it got low kinetic/exp resistance on armor. Weapon would be 6x800mm AC, 2 torp launchers and have 3 gyro stabs in low. This give it real high damage output. Mach is fast enough to catch up to pretty much any thing in missions or belts. You can even fit a thurster rig to make it go even faster.
Vindi is slower, but have higher dps due to extra gun. However, it is limited to 2 damage type and armor tanking.
In general, I would say go for Mach. It is a lot more fun and can adapt to situation better than vindi.
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Ogdru Jahad
Amarr
Shadows of the Dead
Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.16 13:57:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Vasiliyan
Where do the Vindicators come from?
they come from serpentis agents and Shadow serpentis officer spawns in serpentis space, and I understand they come from the serpentis 10/10 plex with can be done with two ships :)
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WTB 40 units of celadon Cystoserocin msg or convo me ingame pls |
Pan Crastus
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Posted - 2007.01.16 14:17:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
[quo
tell that to all the fleets of Tempestas around. Machariel has more DPS than all of those above exception of the Abbadon. its Damage*1.25*1.5 that is insane DPS for long range while with an uber AS. And as a gift a good tracking bonus.
Tell me how a mega can beat that!
Machariel DPS = Tempest DPS with Minmatar BS V.
Tempest: Special Ability: 5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret firing speed and Large Projectile Turret damage per level.
Machariel: Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage. Special Ability: 25% bonus to Large Projectile Turret rate of fire.
Last time I checked, 5 x 5 was still 25 and not 50 and the DPS formula for both Machariel and Tempest with BS V was still (base x 1.25)/0.75 (per turret and same number of turrets).
I don't know how you guys come up with such broken numbers and how you can be so opinionated on top of it ...
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Natasha Kerensky
The Company
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.01.16 14:28:00 -
[19]
Quote:
Machariel DPS = Tempest DPS with Minmatar BS V.
Dosent the tracking bonus on the Mach increase the potential dps over the Tempest?
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Pan Crastus
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Posted - 2007.01.16 14:35:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Natasha Kerensky
Quote:
Machariel DPS = Tempest DPS with Minmatar BS V.
Dosent the tracking bonus on the Mach increase the potential dps over the Tempest?
Might be, but we are talking about theoretical maximum DPS on the hull of an unmoving target in optimal range. ;-)
If we could calculate the effect of tracking, we'd put some Tracking Computer II's on our setups and factor that in...
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Karasu Kaizoku
Caldari
Shikei Army
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Posted - 2007.01.16 15:00:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Pan Crastus
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
[quo
tell that to all the fleets of Tempestas around. Machariel has more DPS than all of those above exception of the Abbadon. its Damage*1.25*1.5 that is insane DPS for long range while with an uber AS. And as a gift a good tracking bonus.
Tell me how a mega can beat that!
Machariel DPS = Tempest DPS with Minmatar BS V.
Tempest: Special Ability: 5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret firing speed and Large Projectile Turret damage per level.
Machariel: Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage. Special Ability: 25% bonus to Large Projectile Turret rate of fire.
Last time I checked, 5 x 5 was still 25 and not 50 and the DPS formula for both Machariel and Tempest with BS V was still (base x 1.25)/0.75 (per turret and same number of turrets).
I don't know how you guys come up with such broken numbers and how you can be so opinionated on top of it ...
It's still as fast as a cruiser give or take. Nano-Mac Sandwich!
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BananaREP
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Posted - 2007.01.20 10:19:00 -
[22]
Does sexiness of the ship affect dmg output?
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ElCoCo
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.20 10:24:00 -
[23]
I have them both and I'd say the machariel is overall much much better. Easier to fit and most of all.... sexier 
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Helen
STK Scientific
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Posted - 2007.01.20 11:09:00 -
[24]
Also the Machariel gives Caldari carrier pilots a complex about their ship size.
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LUKEC
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.01.20 11:44:00 -
[25]
Edited by: LUKEC on 20/01/2007 11:40:28
Vindicator is ok ship but there are better pimp wagons out there. Machariel isn't one of them, though.
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Sigs 4tl. |
BananaREP
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Posted - 2007.01.21 11:20:00 -
[26]
Originally by: LUKEC
Edited by: LUKEC on 20/01/2007 11:40:28
Vindicator is ok ship but there are better pimp wagons out there. Machariel isn't one of them, though.
Whats more fly than a mach?
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Nade'em
Solstice Systems Development Concourse
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Posted - 2007.01.21 12:40:00 -
[27]
I haven't had the chance to fit out a Vindi but doesn't the Mach run into PG issues with 625's and a pimped out Centus tank?
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Proxay
Gallente
Fallen Angel's
Xelas Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.21 12:56:00 -
[28]
Really comes down to the pilot; how the ships are fitted etcetc.
Electron Vindicator w/ dual Centus/Core X-type LAR's will probably end up tanking a mach untill the cap boosters run out, at which point the mach would be almost out of cap/dead....so my vote goes to the vinidcator due to its awesome tanking abilites, and easier to fit.
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Deathbarrage
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Posted - 2007.01.21 16:02:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Proxay
Really comes down to the pilot; how the ships are fitted etcetc.
Electron Vindicator w/ dual Centus/Core X-type LAR's will probably end up tanking a mach untill the cap boosters run out, at which point the mach would be almost out of cap/dead....so my vote goes to the vinidcator due to its awesome tanking abilites, and easier to fit.
machariel would fit the same tank yet not use cap for guns so if it's about ''who runs out of cap first'' it would prolly be the vindi since the mach also has 2 heavy nos on the vindi heh
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Deathbarrage
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Posted - 2007.01.21 16:28:00 -
[30]
Originally by: LUKEC
Originally by: Deathbarrage
Originally by: Proxay
Really comes down to the pilot; how the ships are fitted etcetc.
Electron Vindicator w/ dual Centus/Core X-type LAR's will probably end up tanking a mach untill the cap boosters run out, at which point the mach would be almost out of cap/dead....so my vote goes to the vinidcator due to its awesome tanking abilites, and easier to fit.
machariel would fit the same tank yet not use cap for guns so if it's about ''who runs out of cap first'' it would prolly be the vindi since the mach also has 2 heavy nos on the vindi heh
In 1vs1 scenario, bhaalgorn > all. Tank, no tank, gank, no gank, ... whatever you do, in 5 minutes your ship will be smoking wreck.
This thread is mach vs vindi tho, why the hell do you think i bought a bhaalgorn =) (well not for this reason at all actually, really funny going up against capital ships with nos bhaalgorn and solo killing their entire tank
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LUKEC
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.01.21 16:33:00 -
[31]
Edited by: LUKEC on 21/01/2007 16:31:08
Originally by: Deathbarrage
Originally by: LUKEC
Originally by: Deathbarrage
Originally by: Proxay
Really comes down to the pilot; how the ships are fitted etcetc.
Electron Vindicator w/ dual Centus/Core X-type LAR's will probably end up tanking a mach untill the cap boosters run out, at which point the mach would be almost out of cap/dead....so my vote goes to the vinidcator due to its awesome tanking abilites, and easier to fit.
machariel would fit the same tank yet not use cap for guns so if it's about ''who runs out of cap first'' it would prolly be the vindi since the mach also has 2 heavy nos on the vindi heh
In 1vs1 scenario, bhaalgorn > all. Tank, no tank, gank, no gank, ... whatever you do, in 5 minutes your ship will be smoking wreck.
This thread is mach vs vindi tho, why the hell do you think i bought a bhaalgorn =) (well not for this reason at all actually, really funny going up against capital ships with nos bhaalgorn and solo killing their entire tank
WTS bhaalgornS. Would you like talisman set with it as well? 
Look at my edit.
But whole 1vs1 argument is pretty much pointless. 1vs1 rarely happens and most pimp wagons are flown in blobs where then only hinder it.
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What is local devoid of smack?
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Ast3r0iD
Gallente
The Taining corp
Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.01.21 16:33:00 -
[32]
Just a thought but if you bought the mach you coula afford a faction fitting on it as its a lot cheaper. tbh i think this would give you the edge.
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Deathbarrage
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Posted - 2007.01.21 17:15:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Ast3r0iD
Just a thought but if you bought the mach you coula afford a faction fitting on it as its a lot cheaper. tbh i think this would give you the edge.
we're assuming you can afford faciton fit for both...
assuming both can teach eachother till cap dies the mach will win
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Wrayeth
The Black Rabbits
Fatal Persuasion
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Posted - 2007.01.21 17:32:00 -
[34]
Much as I love my mach (or loved, until it got CONCORDOKKENED due to a bug for shooting a war target - still waiting on the petition), the Vindicator is a better ship by far.
Why?
Simple: DPS. There are tanks that the machariel simply cannot break due to lack of damage output, whereas the vindicator will just breeze through them.
If you were to take this as far as a 1-v-1 situation with a faction-kitted vindicator vs. a faction-fitted machariel, the vindicator would come out ahead. If the machariel strayed within roughly 20km of the vindi, it would get eaten for breakfast by null (or antimatter or void, if the mach came right up to point blank) despite its faction tank; in contrast, if the machariel stays at barrage range of 20-30km, it won't have anywhere near enough DPS to break the vindi's tank. Sure, the machariel can run away easily enough, but it simply cannot win the fight in all but one conceivable circumstance. That one circumstance is this: if the machariel can run the vindicator out of cap by combining nos and forcing the vindi to run its reps, the mach will win; however, this will probably take such a long time that the vindi can either call in friends or reapproach a gate or station.
To summarize: for general use, the vindicator is a far better ship. An equivalent tank combined with the ability to take down ships without taking forever to do it results in a ship that is far more effective. The mach is still a great ship, but it suffers from the same DPS limitations as the tempest (though, thankfully, not the same tanking limitations).
-Wrayeth
"Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Might
As well
Train
Another
Race |
MOS DEF
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.01.21 19:15:00 -
[35]
In your fictional mach vs vindi 1v1 that will never happen the best the vindi will ever achive is making the mach warp out.
The vindi never had a chance fromt hge start of the fight unless you freed up enough grid to fit an officer web noone is expecting.
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LUKEC
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.01.21 19:31:00 -
[36]
LoL wrayeth as clueless as always.
Will any ship break proper machariel tank? Properly fitted machariel will probably easily tank 2 vindicators as long as you have enough cap charges. Range doesn't matter. With void and ogres II with maxed skills "farjung" setups do something like 1000-1100 dps when you have officer dmg mod on. That's tankable with any proper setup.
And stuff about null & other misconcepts, very few vindicators will actually fit neutrons to actually hurt at 15+km and those will die pretty fast due to no good tank.
Now go whine somewhere else or go fly gheynanophoon, it's good ship and guess what, it's solo and it's minmatard.
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What is local devoid of smack?
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Deathbarrage
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Posted - 2007.01.21 19:35:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Wrayeth
Much as I love my mach (or loved, until it got CONCORDOKKENED due to a bug for shooting a war target - still waiting on the petition), the Vindicator is a better ship by far.
Why?
Simple: DPS. There are tanks that the machariel simply cannot break due to lack of damage output, whereas the vindicator will just breeze through them.
If you were to take this as far as a 1-v-1 situation with a faction-kitted vindicator vs. a faction-fitted machariel, the vindicator would come out ahead. If the machariel strayed within roughly 20km of the vindi, it would get eaten for breakfast by null (or antimatter or void, if the mach came right up to point blank) despite its faction tank; in contrast, if the machariel stays at barrage range of 20-30km, it won't have anywhere near enough DPS to break the vindi's tank. Sure, the machariel can run away easily enough, but it simply cannot win the fight in all but one conceivable circumstance. That one circumstance is this: if the machariel can run the vindicator out of cap by combining nos and forcing the vindi to run its reps, the mach will win; however, this will probably take such a long time that the vindi can either call in friends or reapproach a gate or station.
To summarize: for general use, the vindicator is a far better ship. An equivalent tank combined with the ability to take down ships without taking forever to do it results in a ship that is far more effective. The mach is still a great ship, but it suffers from the same DPS limitations as the tempest (though, thankfully, not the same tanking limitations).
you do realize with faction tanks it's very possible to make a tank on the vindicator that can tank more dps then a vindicator will ever be able to dish out? also rigs ftw
we're talking theoretical 1v1 here. Fitting a machariel with a 3x core exp/kin/therm ahrd, 1x corp EANM, 1x DCU II
2x centus x-type L rep, 1x -15% armor rep duration, 2x 15% armor rep amount bonus
this will tank more dmg then the vindi will dish out ever, and all it uses cap on is its tank
in other words: the mach will win eventually due to draining more cap and using less while none can break the other's tank if they still have cap
It's not a realistic situation to have a non-consensual engagement between a mach and a vindicator.
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BananaREP
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Posted - 2007.01.25 14:25:00 -
[38]
bhaalgorn is ugly so it gets no added dmg bonus
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Wizie
Minmatar
Euphoria Released
Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2007.01.25 15:30:00 -
[39]
Originally by: LUKEC
LoL wrayeth as clueless as always.
Will any ship break proper machariel tank? Properly fitted machariel will probably easily tank 2 vindicators as long as you have enough cap charges. Range doesn't matter. With void and ogres II with maxed skills "farjung" setups do something like 1000-1100 dps when you have officer dmg mod on. That's tankable with any proper setup.
And stuff about null & other misconcepts, very few vindicators will actually fit neutrons to actually hurt at 15+km and those will die pretty fast due to no good tank.
Now go whine somewhere else or go fly gheynanophoon, it's good ship and guess what, it's solo and it's minmatard.
Pretty confident that a properly fitted Vindi can tank 3x Machariels (if enough cap injectors are available). Basically you are looking at a stalemate. If they are smart and fit some ecm in mids, whenever one realises that hes dying, the next time he jams, he warps.
If no ECM, and somehow they are engaging at a non jump/dock region, the Mach MIGHT force a victory by outnossing its opponent. If its at a station or gate, the smart pilot will stop agression, orbit and avoid any bumpage and jump out when bored.
They are pretty even, though I prefer the Vindicator.
WTS Machariel - 500mil
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Sig removed by some noob |
LUKEC
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.01.25 16:09:00 -
[40]
Edited by: LUKEC on 25/01/2007 16:06:47
Originally by: Wizie
Originally by: LUKEC
LoL wrayeth as clueless as always.
Will any ship break proper machariel tank? Properly fitted machariel will probably easily tank 2 vindicators as long as you have enough cap charges. Range doesn't matter. With void and ogres II with maxed skills "farjung" setups do something like 1000-1100 dps when you have officer dmg mod on. That's tankable with any proper setup.
And stuff about null & other misconcepts, very few vindicators will actually fit neutrons to actually hurt at 15+km and those will die pretty fast due to no good tank.
Now go whine somewhere else or go fly gheynanophoon, it's good ship and guess what, it's solo and it's minmatard.
Pretty confident that a properly fitted Vindi can tank 3x Machariels (if enough cap injectors are available). Basically you are looking at a stalemate. If they are smart and fit some ecm in mids, whenever one realises that hes dying, the next time he jams, he warps.
If no ECM, and somehow they are engaging at a non jump/dock region, the Mach MIGHT force a victory by outnossing its opponent. If its at a station or gate, the smart pilot will stop agression, orbit and avoid any bumpage and jump out when bored.
They are pretty even, though I prefer the Vindicator.
WTS Machariel - 500mil
3 machariels and you won't tank much. 6 nosfs or even neuts will actually drain you faster than you think. Yes you can micromanage cap and cycle reps & booster manually but you won't shoot. 3 cap injectors and hauler in noobcorp might actually work in empire though.
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Erazer4Nerver
Federation of Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2007.01.25 16:24:00 -
[41]
Hi, 1v1 bough ships fitted with 2x repps and t2 items i would say mach could kill the vindie (say 650's firing Hail vs Electrons with Void) although not fully tested. Now if they are pimped to insanity it will work out bough ways in different cases.
Mach is GREAT for long range sniping(dmg bonus AND rof bonus) as it also can do ok in close range combat with its 7 low slots.
Vindicator's MWD bonus makes it more of a close range boat (specially if you have Min BS lvl5), never tried fitting 425s on it myself so i cant speculate on its long range potential.
I would say that the Cap bonus on the vindie does make a huge difference in close range combat compared to say Mach using a Burner to not take a hit on its Capacitor.
I do like close range fights more then anything else so Vindicator is my ship of choice, also Right rigs + neutrons + vindicator + faction dmg mod? ;) |
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