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Clarification of CFS Policy?

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Juno Wakefield	Posted - 2003.12.01 16:09:00 - [1] IÆm just wondering if someone could quickly summarise the CFSÆs policy on piracy? A fellow corp. member of mine was attacked and killed in the Domain region this weekend by a couple of BS wielding CFS members (IÆm getting him to forward me the Concord message so I can confirm their names should they be required). If the CFS are indeed normally involved in piracy and random killings then fair play to them, it was a good kill, nice work gentlemen. If on the other hand the CFS is a non-pirating organisation, I feel the CFS leadership should be informed of the details of the incident.
Drurrden	Posted - 2003.12.01 16:27:00 - [2] Edited by: Drurrden on 01/12/2003 16:52:38 Hi Juno, please check if your fellow corp member or his corp is on the CFS KOS List. Here is the Link to the CFS Forum. Go to the Public Section, General Public Board. There you find Threads regarding CFS KOS List, CFS Corps (there are several people who fly under false colors) and official CFS Contacts. Feel free to contact me ingame for any further questions. Drurrden, CEO TOHA Heavy Industries, CFS Member
Mned Graydroggen	Posted - 2003.12.01 16:34:00 - [3] I am a senator in the CFS senate. We do not condone piracy by any of our members. Please post the names of the culprits, so we can check if they truely are CFS members. If so I will make sure action will be taken.
Juno Wakefield	Posted - 2003.12.01 16:55:00 - [4] Thank you for your kind help gentlemen, as soon as I can get near my pc at home I'll be providing the information required to resolve this situation. Regards
Juno Wakefield	Posted - 2003.12.01 18:06:00 - [5] The names you require are Doonwong and Stillborn.
Mned Graydroggen	Posted - 2003.12.01 18:34:00 - [6] Your question has been laid before our Senate. The named players are indeed CFS members unfortunatly. You will be contact as soon as possible by one of CFS's representatives to discuss the details of this incident. Mned Graydroggen, CFS senator on behalf of Satal's Legion. .
Juno Wakefield	Posted - 2003.12.01 19:39:00 - [7] Thank you Mned, I await your contact.
Yodaron Ballsithor	Posted - 2003.12.01 19:48:00 - [8] Please have those involved in your corp. or someone who has the screenshots contact me in game. I will give them my e-mail and they can send me the evidence. If they have pirated you they will be expelled from CFS and further action may follow as well.
Locuila	Posted - 2003.12.01 20:20:00 - [9] You know, After reading the back 'n forth about this incident, I have to give my hats off to all of you for keeping a level head throughout this "incident". you've kept it in-game, and haven't spouted off at the mouth with profanities and curses and general lameness. You are an example to follow. Kudos. ___________________________________ I love being podded. - Hampstah
Juno Wakefield	Posted - 2003.12.01 20:40:00 - [10] I have spoken to the corp member involved. Unfortunately he is rather new to the game and was alone when the incident occured, therefore screenshots are not available. He has the Concord messages relating to the destruction of his ship and the chatlogs of the incident itself, or at least the conversation that occured afterwards. The single most damning and may I say completely verifiable piece of evidence is that Doonwong deposited 1 isk, presumably some form of compensation, into the corp members account once his ship was destroyed. I believe this can be corroborated by CCP if necessary. I have arranged for the Corp member to contact you with all is evidence as soon as possible. Thanks again.
Juno Wakefield	Posted - 2003.12.01 20:48:00 - [11] And thank you Locuila.
Ends	Posted - 2003.12.02 17:17:00 - [12] I spoke to the people in question. Stillborn and Doon something or other. They are both CFS members. They freely admit to screwing up. What happened was they were called by someone who claimed the person they attacked was a pirate and had podded them. They went to go kill the pirate. Problem was the person they were told was a pirate wasn't and the person who said they had been podded by person they went to get even with WAS the pirate. They admit freely to not checking the corp info. I can vouch for Angel Constelation as a whole they are good folks. However we have a problem. These two poeple flatly refuse to pay reparations. I even offered to donate bistot so they could work off their debt if they hauled it back. They refused. This is a new situation for the senate. I would expect at the very least for these members to pay up or get punted from the CFS. We'd probably do this by requesting the Angel Constelation either pay for their corp members or punt them. The CFS as a whole is looking at options for what we can do to help. We are not loaded with dough, and are not directrly responsible for the actions of these two. However at the very minimum Mercantis corp is willing to replace the arma at cost. So basically we are doing some digging around trying to make the proper partys pay. If they don't pay CFS will LOOK AT, I am in no way promising they will though, paying for the ship. Our navy is thinly funded as it is, and paying for every dork who won't square things up when the pop someone outside of our region could quickly become a money sink as a genral policy. So, I would also expect we'd be looking at KOSing these two if they don't get off their lazy butts and fix what they screwed up. Senator Ends
Ends	Posted - 2003.12.02 17:18:00 - [13] Here is the convo I had with stillborn about it, I hope this embarrases the hell out of them and motivates Angel Constellation to do the right thing. Channelname: Stillborn conversation Listener: Sius Session started: 2003.12.02 00:23:20 ------------------------------------------------------------ [ 2003.12.02 00:24:03 ] Sius > hey man This is Senator Ends of the CFS [ 2003.12.02 00:24:15 ] Stillborn > lo [ 2003.12.02 00:24:24 ] Sius > we got some people complaining that angel constelation is shooting people up [ 2003.12.02 00:24:29 ] Sius > you know anything about that? [ 2003.12.02 00:24:34 ] Stillborn > ahhh [ 2003.12.02 00:24:41 ] Stillborn > yes i do [ 2003.12.02 00:24:42 ] Sius > and is this the same angel constelation that illuminati was in? [ 2003.12.02 00:24:51 ] Stillborn > yep [ 2003.12.02 00:24:55 ] Stillborn > 1 sec [ 2003.12.02 00:25:09 ] Sius > ok you know angel constellation was my first corp in the game? [ 2003.12.02 00:25:20 ] Stillborn > really? [ 2003.12.02 00:25:24 ] Sius > it was fun, seems like the logo has changed though [ 2003.12.02 00:25:36 ] Stillborn > we made a balls-up [ 2003.12.02 00:25:38 ] Stillborn > yah [ 2003.12.02 00:25:52 ] Sius > balls-up? I am not familair with that slang [ 2003.12.02 00:26:03 ] Stillborn > we made a mistake [ 2003.12.02 00:26:31 ] Sius > this wasn't in our space though was it? it was someplace else [ 2003.12.02 00:26:35 ] Stillborn > and ended up podding a good guy [ 2003.12.02 00:26:40 ] Stillborn > no not cfs space [ 2003.12.02 00:26:41 ] Sius > ooops [ 2003.12.02 00:26:44 ] Sius > yeah [ 2003.12.02 00:26:51 ] Sius > so did you work things out with the guy? [ 2003.12.02 00:27:00 ] Stillborn > we got a msg from a guy called Zigone [ 2003.12.02 00:27:06 ] Sius > ok [ 2003.12.02 00:27:17 ] Stillborn > said he'd been shot at by the guy we podded [ 2003.12.02 00:27:25 ] Stillborn > he said he was a pirate [ 2003.12.02 00:27:47 ] Sius > ah, and he lied to you [ 2003.12.02 00:27:48 ] Stillborn > so me and doonwong went down to find him [ 2003.12.02 00:28:03 ] Stillborn > we found the guy, podded him [ 2003.12.02 00:28:20 ] Stillborn > and in a rush of blood didnt check his info [ 2003.12.02 00:28:26 ] Stillborn > like fools [ 2003.12.02 00:28:27 ] Stillborn > [ 2003.12.02 00:28:57 ] Sius > thats ok, [ 2003.12.02 00:28:58 ] Stillborn > we then looked at Zigone's info and found HE was the pirate [ 2003.12.02 00:29:19 ] Stillborn > we thought we'd get ****** for this... [ 2003.12.02 00:29:20 ] Sius > did you square it up, and what was the name of the guy you podded by accident [ 2003.12.02 00:29:26 ] Sius > no you won't [ 2003.12.02 00:29:35 ] Sius > as long as the victim is ok with it [ 2003.12.02 00:29:37 ] Stillborn > we didnt square it up [ 2003.12.02 00:29:40 ] Sius > oh [ 2003.12.02 00:29:52 ] Stillborn > but we only found out an hour ago [ 2003.12.02 00:29:59 ] Stillborn > about zigone [ 2003.12.02 00:30:05 ] Sius > you gonna make an effort? [ 2003.12.02 00:30:12 ] Stillborn > like what? [ 2003.12.02 00:30:17 ] Stillborn > we got no cash [ 2003.12.02 00:30:28 ] Sius > what did you blow up [ 2003.12.02 00:30:38 ] Sius > how much do you owe? [ 2003.12.02 00:30:45 ] Stillborn > an armageddon [ 2003.12.02 00:30:58 ] Sius > thats pretty expensive lol was it insured? [ 2003.12.02 00:31:23 ] Stillborn > dunno [ 2003.12.02 00:32:21 ] Sius > alright man, we'd like you to replace that ship [ 2003.12.02 00:32:43 ] Stillborn > we cant do that m8 [ 2003.12.02 00:32:51 ] Stillborn > we skint [ 2003.12.02 00:32:52 ] Sius > you blew it and you shouldn't have, I know its an accident but you should try to do rights by the guy don't you think? [ 2003.12.02 00:32:56 ] Stillborn > no cash [ 2003.12.02 00:33:05 ] Sius > how many people you got in the corp now? [ 2003.12.02 00:33:11 ] Stillborn > yes i do [ 2003.12.02 00:33:20 ] Stillborn > but jesus [ 2003.12.02 00:33:23 ] Stillborn > thats a lot [ 2003.12.02 00:33:28 ] Sius > do you have the ability to earn a new ship if your whole corp worked at it? [ 2003.12.02 00:33:37 ] Sius > yeah, but its the right thing to do [ 2003.12.02 00:33:42 ] Sius > I know that [ 2003.12.02 00:33:49 ] Stillborn > our corp isnt really a corp [ 2003.12.02 00:33:49 ] Sius > er you know that [ 2003.12.02 00:34:04 ] Stillborn > its just ppl in the same corp talkin to each other tbh [ 2003.12.02 00:34:17 ] Stillborn > doin their own thing [ 2003.12.02 00:34:33 ] Stillborn > they aint gonna want to help me and doon sort this [ 2003.12.02 00:34:42 ] Stillborn > they'll just leave [ 2003.12.02 00:35:02 ] Stillborn > tbh [ 2003.12.02 00:35:09 ] Stillborn > Zigone should be made to pay [ 2003.12.02 00:35:12 ] Sius > I am talking to the president now [ 2003.12.02 00:35:24 ] Stillborn > ok [ 2003.12.02 00:35:27 ] Sius > I might be able to help you and doon, I am the largest bistot miner in the
Ends	Posted - 2003.12.02 17:23:00 - [14] 2003.12.02 00:35:27 ] Sius > I might be able to help you and doon, I am the largest bistot miner in the fix [ 2003.12.02 00:35:44 ] Sius > you might have to hump some indys for a while but I can help you get paid up [ 2003.12.02 00:36:07 ] Stillborn > this is crap [ 2003.12.02 00:36:14 ] Stillborn > i dont wanna start but [ 2003.12.02 00:36:21 ] Stillborn > we pay cfs subs [ 2003.12.02 00:36:35 ] Stillborn > so why cant cfs sort em out? [ 2003.12.02 00:36:38 ] Stillborn > they pay too [ 2003.12.02 00:37:31 ] Stillborn > im already at the end of my teather with eve and if we gotta pay back 50mil then that might just be the catylist to make me leave [ 2003.12.02 00:37:48 ] Stillborn > and that prolly go's for doon too [ 2003.12.02 00:38:40 ] Sius > /invite yodaron ballsithor [ 2003.12.02 00:38:45 ] Stillborn > and it aint like our "members" havent fought for cfs before and lost ships that havent been replaced..... [ 2003.12.02 00:39:11 ] Sius > yeah, there is a poor guy short an arma that isn't going to understand that too well [ 2003.12.02 00:39:19 ] Sius > stand up, be a man, pay off your debt [ 2003.12.02 00:39:29 ] Stillborn > stand up? [ 2003.12.02 00:39:29 ] Sius > don't run away, you'll feel good if you fix it [ 2003.12.02 00:39:42 ] Sius > yeah pay for the ship you shouldn't have blown [ 2003.12.02 00:39:42 ] Stillborn > no i wont [ 2003.12.02 00:40:09 ] Sius > alright goodbye, we'll be in touch to determine our next step of action. thank you. [ 2003.12.02 00:40:17 ] Stillborn > where does our and their cfs subs go?
Badger	Posted - 2003.12.02 18:08:00 - [15] Juno Contact me in-game. Hadean Drive Yards will provide a cruiser for him he if wishes one. B Badger Admiral of Ethics Hadean Drive Yards "Fear shouldn't hurt, just never put your hand into a bag of angr
Juno Wakefield	Posted - 2003.12.02 23:49:00 - [16] Ends, Thank you for your time spent investigating this matter on behalf of my corporation. May I pass on the gratitude of every member of our corp for your efforts. I will reply to your thread in more detail in the very near future. Sadly RL is pressuring me at the moment. Badger, Your offer is more than generous. Please don't be offended but I must decline. The lost Armageddon has been temporarily been replaced by a Thorax until we resolve this matter. Thank you again. Juno
Juno Wakefield	Posted - 2003.12.03 13:42:00 - [17] To Yodaron Ballsithor and Ends, Well, the perpetrators admit their wrongdoing yet refuse to pay for their mistake. This is indeed an unfortunate situation. One, which I feel, should now be taken up within the Angel Constelation and the CFS itself, as it is clearly an internal matter. Now to the subject of replacing the lost Armageddon. I feel that is deeply unfair that any individual or corporation should be made to pay directly for the indiscretion of a small number of itÆs members who clearly were not acting in the best interests of the CFS. Yet, despite this, it has been clearly stated that Stillborn and Doonwang are indeed members of the CFS. So the dilemma is how best to come to a settlement. To this end I have a proposal, which I would like to present to you. I suggest that a mining and hauling team consisting of members of our corporation be allowed free passage into CFS claimed territory. That they be taken to a system containing æhigh endÆ ores and be allowed to mine ore to the value of the lost ship. During this operation cover at the belt and gates would be provided by combat pilots of the CFS, enabling us to concentrate on the task of recouping our loss as swiftly as possible. We would also require clear passage to the nearest system containing a refinery and an escort to æsafeÆ space once the operation is completed. And of course, a written guarantee from the Senate of the CFS, that, should we suffer any form of loss during the course of this operation, the cost will be entirely covered by the CFS itself. If feel this to be the fairest solution, as the cost of a new battleship would be taken from CFS claimed resources and not individual members or corporations. I hope this seems a reasonable proposal. I look forward to your reply.
Ends	Posted - 2003.12.03 17:02:00 - [18] Hey man all lawful players get to mine in CFS space. I happen to run the biggest bistot operation in the area. So, forget the mining ships and bring haulers I'll fill em up. I have a character with refining eff 5. To get 50 million out of there you'll need to bring 50,000m3 to 60,000m3 in cargo space, I can mine that much in about 45 mins with 4 apocs. So call me, and we'll get you sorted out. BTW a stock bestower with indy 3 and 4 cargo one's can haul 10000m3 with two giant and 1 huge can, and with AB 3 they'll go fast enough to get past NPC rats at the gates. I have some I can loan you to use if you need them for the op. Just bring about 6 pilots to gehi. Then we'll hook you up with Kai's corp and they'll whip you up a Arma from minerals for you.
Juno Wakefield	Posted - 2003.12.03 17:34:00 - [19] Well Ends, you certainly have my attention, not that you didn't have it before. I think we have 5 Bestowers hanging around somewhere already loaded with cans, ready to haul. As for the refining, well, we may look like we come from the burbs but I've had RE5 for quite a while now so the refining is no problem. Incidentally, judging by fair and condsiderate way we've been treated by all (well very nearly all) the members of the CFS we've encountered. I'd like to apply for membership, then maybe we can help each other out on a more regular basis. It may seem hard to believe but if provoked 'New World Industrial' can pack quite a punch, our compliment of ships is extensive, to say the least. This may be of some use to the CFS in the future. I look forward to speaking to you 'in-game' very shortly.
Yodaron Ballsithor	Posted - 2003.12.03 17:34:00 - [20] Angel Constellation has withdrawn its membership from CFS due to this incident and their refusal to pay reparations. Regarding your offer of mining in our space, as Ends says, have at it. We certainly have no problem with lawful players mining in CFS space. Military protection: We have an active Navy that patrols the FIX and below. Obviously we cannot fully guarantee the safety of any pilot in 0.0 space and we will not guarantee that to you either; however, as long as your folks pay attention to the channel CFS Public and take a look at our KOS list, which can be viewed on our General Public forums at www.cfs-eve.org or in-game at http://cfs-eve.org/ingame/index.htm, then you will be able to monitor local channel in the system you are in and if trouble surfaces the Navy and Reserves will respond. I am sure we have other CFS members that would be willing to assist you in your task of replacing the ship; however, the incident that occurred happened outside of CFS protectorate space and I am not aware of any Alliance that pays reparations for actions outside their space unless pursuant to some Treaty or other agreement. CFS is no different in this respect. One further note: If you mine in CFS protected 0.0 space and suffer a loss from a pirate, CFS will not pay reparations. If, for some strange reason (which would be highly unlikely, just like this situation is a very abnormal one) you were attacked in CFS protected space by a CFS member, reparations would be required of the corporation or the offending corporation would become KOS to CFS and expelled from the CFS.
Juno Wakefield	Posted - 2003.12.03 17:44:00 - [21] Yodaran, your comments seem perfectly reasonable to me. If you agree, I'll shortly be contacting you regarding the possibility of adding New World Industrial to the CFS fold. Once again, regards Juno
Juno Wakefield	Posted - 2003.12.09 13:20:00 - [22] And in closing.. The operation was carried out late Sunday night (at least for most of the corp).. We all made it out to the Bistot fields, we all made it back... Thank you Senator Ends and the CFS. Not only did we get enough ore to buy a new Armageddon but we learnt a great deal... And had a fantastic day too.. No doubt we'll be seeing each other again soon..
Bad Harlequin	Posted - 2003.12.09 14:06:00 - [23] Quote: You know, After reading the back 'n forth about this incident, I have to give my hats off to all of you for keeping a level head throughout this "incident". you've kept it in-game, and haven't spouted off at the mouth with profanities and curses and general lameness. You are an example to follow. Kudos. beat me to it. mutter mutter EV mutter grumble ,-). class work. You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike.
Ithilgore	Posted - 2003.12.09 14:33:00 - [24] We had Zigone in our corp for a while since, but when we found out that he was a Spy, w tried to kick him but Doonwong(our current CEO) was deep into some RL buisniess. Zigone said that he was under CA protection too. Zigone was unable to get any info from us, even though he offered 5m for it. He left shortly after. Stillborn and Doon wasnt aware of this, because they was deep buried in RL things.. We are terrebly sorry for your loss. We would help, but we are short on cash atm, and we are still working to get more members battleships & stuff. (Btw: Zigone should be the one to pay)
Juno Wakefield	Posted - 2003.12.21 11:14:00 - [25] :)

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