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Tactical Shield Manipulation

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Kua Mortal Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2007.01.08 07:45:00 - [1] Edited by: Kua Mortal on 08/01/2007 07:52:54 Edited by: Kua Mortal on 08/01/2007 07:44:27 Could someone explain in simple terms what this means? "Skill at preventing damage from penetrating the shield, including the use of shield hardeners and other advanced shield modules. Reduces the chance of damage penetrating the shield when it falls below 25% by 5% per skill level, with 0% chance at level 5." Primarily I want to understand how and to what extent it improves the performance of my shield hardners. Also I'm currently posting as my alt, how do I change that? Thank you. :) P.S. Unrelated, but no point making a new thread: Which skill increases the recharge rate for turrets (specifically hybrids, if it makes a difference) Having fun in EVE is about using what you have, not wishing you had more.
Tabore	Posted - 2007.01.08 07:54:00 - [2] Edited by: Tabore on 08/01/2007 07:51:49 Edited by: Tabore on 08/01/2007 07:50:49 When your shields are at low strength (25% or less) some damage can pass through to your armor, or to your hull if your armor is gone. This skill helps prevent that. (Edit: No, it doesn't make your shields invulnerable when they are below 25% )
Tabore	Posted - 2007.01.08 07:57:00 - [3] Originally by: Kua Mortal Edited by: Kua Mortal on 08/01/2007 07:44:27 Also I'm currently posting as my alt, how do I change that? me, too. Haven't figured it out, yet.
Kua Mortal Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2007.01.08 07:59:00 - [4] OK. But you're still receving the damage. Why is it better for your shield to take the damage as oppose to your armour? Or is it just because shields recharge? Does this skill make a noticeable difference? Having fun in EVE is about using what you have, not wishing you had more.
Serious Bob	Posted - 2007.01.08 08:33:00 - [5] No, the skill is just a time sink. Training this skill actually makes your tank slightly worse. So why train it? T2 shield hardeners. And those are worth training for.
Kua Mortal Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2007.01.08 09:05:00 - [6] Edited by: Kua Mortal on 08/01/2007 09:02:36 Originally by: Serious Bob No, the skill is just a time sink. Training this skill actually makes your tank slightly worse. Are you serious? LOL. I've just noticed the extreme irony in this question. Having fun in EVE is about using what you have, not wishing you had more.
Serious Bob	Posted - 2007.01.08 09:08:00 - [7] Edited by: Serious Bob on 08/01/2007 09:11:19 Yeah I'm Serious. Serious Bob. Any other questions? Yay glad you noticed! Anyway, it's really really a tiny effect, but natural shield recharge peaks at slightly above 30 percents, and then decreases to almost zero at 0% shield. Thus, the more shields you have left, the better your recharge. If the armor soaks some damage, you will regain more shield.
Kua Mortal Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2007.01.08 09:44:00 - [8] Obviously this complaint isn't directed at you: but it seems ridiculous that the skill should have such an effect. Having fun in EVE is about using what you have, not wishing you had more.
Evesham Caldari Ratio Decidendi United Connection's	Posted - 2007.01.08 10:15:00 - [9] Edited by: Evesham on 08/01/2007 10:12:28 This skill is well worth training due to the fact that you can use t2 hardeners at lvl4 but I have read that training to lvl 5 is a cmplete waste of time Originally by: Kua Mortal Also I'm currently posting as my alt, how do I change that? Thank you. :) P.S. Unrelated, but no point making a new thread: Which skill increases the recharge rate for turrets (specifically hybrids, if it makes a difference) When you post it asks you underneath the smilies which character you want to post as unless you mean a 2nd account then you have to log out and back in using that account details The only way to make an honest living is to KILL KILL KILL BILL
Serious Bob	Posted - 2007.01.08 13:45:00 - [10] Originally by: Kua Mortal Obviously this complaint isn't directed at you: but it seems ridiculous that the skill should have such an effect. Welcome to Eve. There's lots of stuff like this, but it's no biggie. Nothing's perfect, nothing ever will be, Eve is still by far the best mmorpg out there.
Szprinkoth Sponsz ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.08 16:51:00 - [11] Originally by: Serious Bob Edited by: Serious Bob on 08/01/2007 09:11:19 Yeah I'm Serious. Serious Bob. Any other questions? Yay glad you noticed! Anyway, it's really really a tiny effect, but natural shield recharge peaks at slightly above 30 percents, and then decreases to almost zero at 0% shield. Thus, the more shields you have left, the better your recharge. If the armor soaks some damage, you will regain more shield. That's why you train it to level 5, which is bugged and doesn't have any effect --
Suntwirler	Posted - 2007.01.08 17:06:00 - [12] Training this to level 5 is a pre-requisite to Capital Shield boosters for the capital shield tanks... Phoenix FTW!!!
Shacksman Gallente Eye of God	Posted - 2007.01.09 00:38:00 - [13] Originally by: Suntwirler Training this to level 5 is a pre-requisite to Capital Shield boosters for the capital shield tanks... Phoenix FTW!!! Amen Eye oF GoD
Cpt Lain	Posted - 2007.01.10 01:35:00 - [14] Actually, said skill is NOT merely a "time sink", the players who say so simply don't try to see what situations having 0% damage bleed through low shields might be useful in. Take armor tankers for example, the last miniscule .019% of damage my last 1 unit of shield takes is .019% less damage I have to start repping in my primary tank :) Also prereq for other more advanced skills. Look at all sides of the issue before you write off a skill as "useless". It's not QUITE Caldari Online yet (give it another year).
Magnus Card Caldari	Posted - 2007.01.10 21:32:00 - [15] Originally by: Cpt Lain Actually, said skill is NOT merely a "time sink", the players who say so simply don't try to see what situations having 0% damage bleed through low shields might be useful in. Take armor tankers for example, the last miniscule .019% of damage my last 1 unit of shield takes is .019% less damage I have to start repping in my primary tank :) Also prereq for other more advanced skills. Look at all sides of the issue before you write off a skill as "useless". It's not QUITE Caldari Online yet (give it another year). Not to mention you need level 4 to be able to use tech 2 shield Hards. So no it's not useless. Still rockin as a !
Melaka Fray Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada Storm Armada	Posted - 2007.01.10 22:00:00 - [16] Originally by: Kua Mortal P.S. Unrelated, but no point making a new thread: Which skill increases the recharge rate for turrets (specifically hybrids, if it makes a difference) If by "recharge rate" you mean the Rate of Fire (RoF), that would be "Rapid Firing". If you mean the tracking speed, that's "Motion Prediction". If you mean how long it takes to reload ammo when you run out, there is no skill to shorten that time. MF
Serious Bob	Posted - 2007.01.10 22:22:00 - [17] Originally by: Cpt Lain Actually, said skill is NOT merely a "time sink", the players who say so simply don't try to see what situations having 0% damage bleed through low shields might be useful in. Take armor tankers for example, the last miniscule .019% of damage my last 1 unit of shield takes is .019% less damage I have to start repping in my primary tank :) Also prereq for other more advanced skills. Look at all sides of the issue before you write off a skill as "useless". It's not QUITE Caldari Online yet (give it another year). You sir, are a noob. With or without Tactical Shield Manipulation, you will lose all of your shields. Without it, you will get a tiny bit more shields (to lose) than with it. I realise this is hard to understand, but just try, ok? It's kinda fun that an armor tanker has wasted time on this skill though. ^^ Love the "Caldari Online" part too, senseless bandwagon whine ftw!
Voculus E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.01.11 02:38:00 - [18] Serious Bob, I intend no disrespect, but you've got it all wrong. If you're a shield tanker, then you do not want damage bleeding through to your armor, as it is unhardened. Secondly, when your ship starts taking armor-damage, you're tank is failing, and if you're in the middle of PvP, it means the end is near. _________________________________________________________
Hesod Adee Bright New Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.11 04:20:00 - [19] As an armor tanking I'm never going to actually train this skill, but last night I came to the conclusion that training this skill would actually make my tanking slightly worse if I trained it. My logic for this conclusion is as follows: At about 30% shield you reach peak regen, the lower you are below that the less regen you have. Because not training this skill lets some damage seep through your shields, it means your shields will take longer to fail, meaning that without this skill they spend slightly more time above 0%, meaning more time where you have better regen that you would at 0% shields. This means that more of the enemies damage will be taken by your shields instead of your armor. Any damage taken by your shields is damage that is not taken by your armor, meaning that its less damage for your armor repair unit(s) to have to deal with. Before anyone else says this though, I don't think that training this skill or not will make any real difference for an armor tanker, except for the time they spent training this instead of something else. As for why I thought up all of that, I was bored. ----------------- My door is always open, just don't go in.
Jenny Starfighter Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2007.01.11 12:29:00 - [20] Also I'm currently posting as my alt, how do I change that? log in to eve-o, click forums. Under forums (to the left) you have settings, click that and select your main, then youll get the option of clicking some boxes, one of wich is Use as main" or some such. Join channel: "Eve University" or read here
Serious Bob	Posted - 2007.01.11 20:28:00 - [21] Originally by: Kua Mortal Edited by: Kua Mortal on 11/01/2007 11:40:34 Originally by: Voculus Edited by: Voculus on 11/01/2007 04:16:28 If you're a shield tanker, then you do not want damage bleeding through to your armor, as it is unhardened. That makes a lot of sense to me. If 20 damage hits your hardened shields, only 10 might get through. If it hits your unhardened armor all 20 get through. EEK sorry for the multiple posts . So I won't make a new post out of this. It seems the case for and against the Tactical Shield Manipulation skill is dependent on circumstances and complex. I.e. something a noob would be well advised to stay away from . But at least I now know what it means. :) The difference in tanking is minimal, but Tact. Shield Manipulation makes it worse. I'll walk you through it. Let's say you have Tact. Shield Manipulation 5 (and lets also pretend it's not bugged). You take damage, and lose all your shields in 100s. After that you take armor damage. Without the skill, you will start to take armor damage before the shield is completely gone. This means the shield rechargerate will be higher, and thus you will gain more shields. In the end, before you die, you will have lost all armor and shields. Without Tactical Shield Manipulation, you will have slightly more shields to lose. See? The point is that the shield is hardened, and thus it's good for you to get more shield. Let's hope people get it this time.
BallsSnatcher	Posted - 2007.01.11 21:34:00 - [22] Ok a few things. If your sheilds are leaking damage to your armor then you got more problems and you should be getting the hell out of there. Getting it to lvl 4 you can use the compsation skills, so if someone noses you , and you loose your cap so you loose your active hardeners you can have still more resist if you didnt 3% per lvl for active 5% more for passive. I rather take my sheilds down to 0 then have it leak thru. Just a pain to get the armor repaired. Getting it to lvl 5 you can use T2, the extra resist are nice ven tho its not a big % but the T2 are not alot of money.
Mike Yagon Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.01.11 23:23:00 - [23] But regardless if it leaks or not, the benefit is so incredibly tiny that you are going to die if you rely on it anyway. ------ In Carebear We Trust
aeti Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.12 02:50:00 - [24] and it doesn't work, unless they fixed it very recently even at lvl 5 you get leakage
aeti Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.12 02:50:00 - [25] and it doesn't work, unless they fixed it very recently even at lvl 5 you get leakage
Sexorella hotz Beasts of Burden	Posted - 2007.01.12 03:17:00 - [26] Edited by: Sexorella hotz on 12/01/2007 03:16:19 Originally by: Mike Yagon But regardless if it leaks or not, the benefit is so incredibly tiny that you are going to die if you rely on it anyway. Which is why people get so upset and every week there's a tactical shield manipulation post. I tend to agree wiht Serious Bob that the armor leak is actually helpful, but on an active tank recharge it's a very miniscule part of the tank, on a passive tank, though, I would love to be able to turn TSM off, since recharge is everything. But at the end of the day, I think it needs a more reasonable benefit, I think a bonus to hardener cap use would be really nice and not to offbalanced as long as the bonus isn't too high, cause I know there are cases I wish my training would actually make the modules a little easier to use. As it stands, its a very controversial "benefit" that most will argue detrimental, though I think its only really detrimental to the passive tanks. To the active tanks, its just plain useless, maybe a wee bit harmful. But no matter what, if your recharge gets kicked in the ass, you're presenting fewer hitpoints by the time your dead. For the armor tank, once your armor has been chewed 100% through, your shields are also 100% gone, so little did it matter there looking at it wholistically(s/p?), that is, once you're dead, I suppose it matters if you have the goal of not letting your armor drop below 90%. But in the end, I think this skill arises the most controversy, we all have our opinions and I've read fairly convincing arguments for TSM to actually work as intended, but I'm still not sold on it, I'm okay with it being a time sink, capital ships need to be rare damnet! But it should not be detrimental to have trained a skill, it needs a clear cut benefit. On a random note, one idea I had as I was writing, is that it could press back the optimal recharge point on the shields, base is around 30%, that is, at 30% shields your recharge is at its highest, maybe training TSM could push the optimal back to say 15% at level 5, 3% per level? Its something everyone benefits from, though I must say again it might be controversial.
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.01.12 05:24:00 - [27] Serious Bob is correct. Seriously. I really can't think of any case that TSM is good to have. Armor tankers and shield tankers both would tank better without the skill than with it. If you actually think your armor tank benefits from TSM then you simply don't understand how TSM works or you don't understand how shield regen works or you don't understand how the interaction of the two works out, or all three. Every single person who has analyzed the situation mathematically has shown that TSM hurts. The important part, as has already been mentioned, is that TSM's effect is so tiny that it really doesn't matter that it hurts your tank. It's hurting it by less than 1%... likely closer to .01% or lower. So really it is silly for so many arguments about this to pop up... the real argument should be with the Devs over why they gave us such a worthless skill. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Kua Eve University	Posted - 2007.01.12 05:54:00 - [28] Originally by: Serious Bob Originally by: Kua Mortal Edited by: Kua Mortal on 11/01/2007 11:40:34 Originally by: Voculus Edited by: Voculus on 11/01/2007 04:16:28 If you're a shield tanker, then you do not want damage bleeding through to your armor, as it is unhardened. That makes a lot of sense to me. If 20 damage hits your hardened shields, only 10 might get through. If it hits your unhardened armor all 20 get through. EEK sorry for the multiple posts . So I won't make a new post out of this. It seems the case for and against the Tactical Shield Manipulation skill is dependent on circumstances and complex. I.e. something a noob would be well advised to stay away from . But at least I now know what it means. :) The difference in tanking is minimal, but Tact. Shield Manipulation makes it worse. I'll walk you through it. Let's say you have Tact. Shield Manipulation 5 (and lets also pretend it's not bugged). You take damage, and lose all your shields in 100s. After that you take armor damage. Without the skill, you will start to take armor damage before the shield is completely gone. This means the shield rechargerate will be higher, and thus you will gain more shields. In the end, before you die, you will have lost all armor and shields. Without Tactical Shield Manipulation, you will have slightly more shields to lose. See? The point is that the shield is hardened, and thus it's good for you to get more shield. Let's hope people get it this time. LOL. Yeah I see, although I suspect that now I will read on and see a good counter argument and won't know what to think .
Hamatitio Caldari Fate.	Posted - 2007.01.12 11:02:00 - [29] to change the character you post with, when posting underneath the smilies there is a character: tab. Click the character you want to post with. Go to settings, pick your character, and dclick the "default" button to have that character always be the default poster. --- I'm going through sigs fast these days.
Kamikaaazi	Posted - 2007.01.12 11:15:00 - [30] this useless skill needs to be changed into something more useful. Come on, its a frickin rank4 skill, not some cheap rank1 crapskill.
Quirinuss	Posted - 2007.01.12 14:50:00 - [31] Edited by: Quirinuss on 12/01/2007 14:46:46 I was forced to train this skill to level 5 in order to use my Capital Shield Booster. Other then Caldari cap pilots, only reason to train this puppy is to get your T2 hardeners.
Sokratesz Guardians of Hell's Gate Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2007.01.12 15:58:00 - [32] Change it to '5% less cap use for shield hardeners per level' and give armortankers a similar skill. Basilisk Fitting Link
SallyShears	Posted - 2007.02.25 19:01:00 - [33] Originally by: Shadarle If you actually think your armor tank benefits from TSM then you simply don't understand how TSM works or you don't understand how shield regen works or you don't understand how the interaction of the two works out, or all three. Every single person who has analyzed the situation mathematically has shown that TSM hurts. I am trying to wrap my head around this issue and have two questions: 1.) Wouldn't it be good for an armor tank if TSM worked correctly since you could count on the extra few shieldHP that your shield may build between hits alloiwing the armor tank to repair more armorHP while the shield carved a few points off the top of the hit? I undersatnd it's not much, but every little bit helps. Please don't blast me; just trying to think about all angles and I don't quite understand it all which is why I'm asking the questions. 2.) Has a DEV EVER weighed in on this topic? A link to the post if so.
Harry Voyager Obscurity LLC	Posted - 2007.02.25 21:24:00 - [34] The real bugger with TSM is that a rank 4 skill nets me, at most, around a total 400 damage shift, from armour to shield, over the course of an entire battle. Throw those 4 lvl 5 ranks into Energy Operation (r1) and Energy Management (r3), and you're looking at a 66% difference in tanking capacity, before and after. Throw those 4 ranks into Shield Ops/Mgm, and my ship gets an additional 38 dps peak passive shield tank. A mere 10 second engagement, nets me the entire benefit of TSM. TSM isn't worth having, unless you need to fit Invul II's, or Capital shield boosters. There is just no point to it at all. Harry Voyager
Cookie Snatcher Gallente	Posted - 2007.02.26 11:07:00 - [35] instead of nerfing stuff to hell, devs should try to fix some skills. For example this skill. How long do we have to wait for this skill to be acctually useful.
VaderDSL Caldari Orcus Inferno	Posted - 2007.02.26 16:06:00 - [36] Originally by: Cookie Snatcher instead of nerfing stuff to hell, devs should try to fix some skills. For example this skill. How long do we have to wait for this skill to be acctually useful. 2 years and counting
El Verbatim	Posted - 2007.02.27 17:21:00 - [37] Edited by: El Verbatim on 27/02/2007 17:18:18 Ok, I think there's one situation where this skill might be good (at least if I understand what's going on). Suppose (big suppose, I agree), you're a shield tanker and get ganked. The gang is breaking your tank such that your shields fall in the region where TSM is active (so damage bleeding through to your armor). At that moment however, you can pop one or two of your attackers and the ones remaining cannot lower your shields any further but you cannot restore it back to full either so it hovers around that let's say 10 percent shields. If the fight would continue for a LONG time and during that time, you never reach 0 percent shield but you can't get it higher then let's say 20 percent either, you'll still die eventually as the damage is leaking to your armor and eventually to your structure. So your shield tank still stayed up but you still loose the ship. Very unlikely situation, I agree.
bulebolt	Posted - 2007.02.27 18:25:00 - [38] hi all im quite new to eve a few months old and am trying to get the irght shield skils to make an affective tank ive followed a ferox guid and that works fine but ive just moved to a drake and need some help with the right skills for the job can u help ?
Reysing Tafe	Posted - 2007.02.27 19:01:00 - [39] All true... on the other side, armor tankers are likely to have hardened armors, meaning that (with the skill at 0) gross damage penetrating the shield makes less 'net' damage to your ship than if that damage would have been absorbed by the unhardened shields (skill at 4-5)... there's a lot of parameters in the play, I guess that only a computer simulation would give a definitive answer. anyone?
Karrihn Caldari Black Company	Posted - 2007.03.02 14:31:00 - [40] Assume you have a shield resist of 85% for explosive damage and 25% armor resist for explosive. you get hit for 100 explosive damage. against your shield you mitigate 85 points of damage, the buffer between your enemy and your structure is reduced a total of 15 points. Now you are at 24% shields and assume you get hit for the same amount and type of damage. Assuming your shield resists mitigate (.75.85)100 = 63 points of damage. your armor mitigates 9.25 points of damage. total damage mitigated by resists is 72.25. Your buffer between your enemy and structure is reduced a total of 27.75 points. NOTE: I am making an assumption on the percentage of damage that is allowed to "blead through", Someone who knows please update me. The assumption is to illustrate with numbers. even on a ship with a passive shield tank the extra time spent *near* but still below peak recharge is not enough of a help to make much difference as recharge nose dives at around 25%. If you have a peak recharge of 100/sec and you take 120/sec in damage once you get below 30% if you can't eliminate the number of guns shooting at you in another 30 seconds your dead anyway. I at least like to have a little buffer left in my armor to allow me to withdraw. The Destruction of your ship is usually preceeded by the thought,"I think I will try somthing a little different this time...."

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