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Logan Williams Omega Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.10 03:25:00 - [1] This post isn't to gloat to or about ISS. It's not about "Tin Foil Hattery". It's just.......a post. The past couple of days have seen a couple of threads about ISS and why this and why that and finally "Shareholder Demand" threads. Let's look, a moment, at what ISS did. They attempted to be a 100% neutral entity in 0.0 to help take care of the needs and wants of the masses. They established a navy that was responsible for defense. They established and maintained a true dividend system in EvE. They made seperate corporations to assign to each outpost to keep different standings in different regions. They made money...... What did ISS management do wrong? A: Nothing B: Read about what they did and I'll explain below. Everything they did is related to why they are currently failing. It is my belief that the navy is really what has screwed them over. PvP'ers need action. When PvP'ers don't have action, they make it. Couple this with southern entities putting alts in northern ISS stations and northern entities putting alts in southern ISS stations (assuming individual initiative here, not alliance initiatives) and the stage is set for ISS's "neutrality" to be blown all to hell. With their "neutrality" blown, everyone starts looking at them and saying "Hey, they're making my enemy a fortune in dividend return every quarter!! They need to go!!". To add to this, neutrals docking at the stations and possibly watching local fleet movements OUTSIDE of the ISSN alt problems only added to the fire. Guys, isk doesn't have a face....they sold to isk, not to people. Different corps in control of different outposts really didn;t contribute to the current situation. ISS vs. IAC has been hashed several times and I don;t view it as a contribution to the overall picture of ISS. All ribbing and slight humor aside (sorry serenity for my sig ***** at you earlier) ISS is in a world of crap because they're doing what thay set out to do (minus a few unforseen problems). First, people wanted to hang the blame on D2. Now, they want to lynch Tassanine and Serenity. "Withdraw them, they heisted our isk!!". Guys, ISS is NOT Enron. They didn't blow your isks and then hide. You gave them your isk to help them set forth their vision. They took your isk and set forth the vision. Now you want their heads because you failed to see the risk of 0.0 investment. It's my opinion that, instead of looking to make Tassanine and Serenity bear the brunt of your unhappiness and spending your time trying to do so......perhaps you should ask "HOW CAN I CONTRIBUTE?". Perhaps you should ask "IS THERE ANYWAY WE CAN HELP ISS INTO ONE OF THE NEW REGIONS AWAY FROM POLITICS PERIOD AS A PLACE FOR "EMPIRE" MINERS TO GO AND FIND HIGH ENDS?". <-- This last one is intriguing. A setup similar to Eve-University except agreed upon by all the alliances in a council style meeting. During any renewing of ISS, I'd also suggest a set amount of shares to be sold to non alliance folks, and alliance folks.......all having an equal number of alloted shares. (If an alliance doesn't buy their allotment...more profit for ISS) Anyway, I've said my piece. Hopefully now some of the lynchings will stop and people try to go positive instead of negative. As for myself, I'm not done shooting ISS yet and while I may be a fan of ISS I'm not a supporter.
Aaron Static Igneus Auctorita	Posted - 2007.01.10 03:39:00 - [2] Originally by: Logan Williams agreed upon by all the alliances in a council style meeting. lol! oh wait... you're being serious? - Igneus Auctorita Video -
Logan Williams Omega Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.10 03:40:00 - [3] Originally by: Aaron Static Originally by: Logan Williams agreed upon by all the alliances in a council style meeting. lol! oh wait... you're being serious? I thought that when I wrote it too. JUST a thought man. lol
Cyberflayer Mercurialis Inc. Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.01.10 03:51:00 - [4] Hm... I cannot comprehend the existence of a lengthy, intelligent post concerning ISS that takes a unique stand. Consider it disregarded. --- Real men structure tank. Originally by: Butter Dog Look, seriously, give up. You lost the thread about 6 pages ago.
Petite Pierre Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.10 03:56:00 - [5] Logan, pardon me saying this, but you're clueless as always, Sir. --------------------
Svett Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.10 04:10:00 - [6] WTB ISS shares. Seriously.
0August0 Gallente The Crucible	Posted - 2007.01.10 04:19:00 - [7] Originally by: Logan Williams while I may be a fan of ISS I'm not a supporter. . . . Regards, August
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.01.10 04:20:00 - [8] Originally by: Logan Williams Perhaps you should ask "IS THERE ANYWAY WE CAN HELP ISS INTO ONE OF THE NEW REGIONS AWAY FROM POLITICS PERIOD AS A PLACE FOR "EMPIRE" MINERS TO GO AND FIND HIGH ENDS?". <-- This last one is intriguing. Actually, that isn't such a bad idea.
Oreh Anavrin ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.10 04:31:00 - [9] ISS is as close you can get to a "neutral" entity in this game and they have obviously gone further than all other supposed "neutral" entities. Now they die, the method or reason does not matter, only the fact that they are gone. What does this mean? Not much for the older player, but for newer corps it will be harder to break into 0.0 space. It also means that this is much less likely to be tried again, even in a somehow changed format. Such is the nature of eve though. The game favors the destructive over the constructive and so this is bound to happen to all organizations. _________________________________ This is Oreh Anavrin and I am here to remind you that Eve is a video game and not real life. Now think about what you wrote before you hit the "post" button ;
Christopher Scott Caldari Vengeance of the Fallen	Posted - 2007.01.10 04:36:00 - [10] There will never be a place for empire in 0.0. That idea lived and died with CFS. Stop trying.

Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2007.01.10 04:49:00 - [11] Originally by: Christopher Scott There will never be a place for empire in 0.0. That idea lived and died with CFS. Stop trying. QFT
grunt1472 Divestiture Amalgamated	Posted - 2007.01.10 04:55:00 - [12] Territorial alliances claim and protect space. Many of them build or acquire outposts, which provide a very convenient base of operations. If you attack a territorial alliance's space, especially its outpost systems, you are directly attacking that alliance's property and their home. ISS has never and will never claim space to the exclusion of others. (Because the sovereignty mechanics are tied to POS resource consumption, ISS may show up in some systems as sovereignty holder; this is not a territorial claim, it is a prudent cost-cutting measure.) ISS has built a number of outposts and has operated others. These outposts were not financed by ISS funds. They were paid for by investors in the various station IPOs. While some ISS members are undoubtedly also shareholders in the stations, it is commonly believed that the majority of dividend-paying outpost shares are owned outside of ISS. Despite having no direct ownership claim, many ISS corporations have lived in and operated from these ISS managed outposts. The difference between ISS outposts and the rest is that for all practical purposes, the corporations who make their homes at ISS outposts are not landlords. They are much closer to renters. Besides pride and a general desire to drive off nasties, they have no vested interest in the outposts themselves. It is a place to dock and repair, but it does not belong to them. By comparison, if one attacks, for example, an IAC outpost, one directly threatens not only the home and the livelihood of IAC pilots, but also what was a very substantial investment of time and ISK for many of those pilots. They're not fighting for someone else's property; they're fighting for their own. The same cannot be said for ISS pilots. Because ISS has never had the means or desire to maintain a credible combat force to act as primary protectors of these outposts, the ISS business model depends on its neighbors being okay with its presence. And because the ISS corporations themselves don't actually have a dog in the race when it comes to ISS outpost operations, there is effectively no one who will actually fight back when the outposts are threatened. Yes, mercs can be hired for a time, but mercs can't occupy and subdue. In theory the folks who owned the ISS shares were supposed to show up and protect the outposts that really belonged to them. In practice we've seen that apparently doesn't work. It appears to be more cost effective to just write off the investment than to risk further losses defending them. The ISS outpost concept was a cool one, and appreciated by many pilots. But it can only work as long as the other alliances permit it to. That time appears to have ended. The trading-oriented ISS IPO may mark a new, non-outpost direction for ISS. But giving them any more outposts under any circumstances and protected by any agreements would be throwing good money after bad.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2007.01.10 05:31:00 - [13] Edited by: Nez Perces on 10/01/2007 05:29:36 You know all this talk of shares and stuff is all very nice... but its aimed at the wrong kind of corporate activity. PVP corporations should float themselves on the stockmarket. EVE IS ABOUT PVP .. how many times does it have to be said? Yeah some people don't like pvp and thats fine but they aren't really playing EVE.. they are playing something else, and I don't know what it is. My point is... you can really measure pvp performance and pvp corporations make as much ISK as the "industrial" ones, every decent heayweight pvp entity has an industrial backing. My point being... Outbreak shares who wouldn't buy some of those in a heartbeat? Or RKK/BNC/Evol shares, MC shares? or hell even some Burn Eden shares might pay out some decent dividends.. if you could trust Shin Ra to pay up Celestial Apocalypse shares perhaps? for those who like a longshot...(just kidding ) OFC this is unlikely to happen as the people running such corps know that this share business is pie in the sky till CCP actually incorporate it properly into the game mechanics with some proper management tools or other goodies. All this industrially oriented replication of market forces and other claptrap from RL is a waste of time. But hey its EVE and everybody is entitled to waste their time as they see fit. Some things from RL don't work in EVE and things from EVE don't work in RL... a classic example is communism. In RL it just does not work...but in EVE some of the most powerful corporations work just fine on it.
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.01.10 05:54:00 - [14] Simple. You cannot defend and attack with mostly mercenaries. However effective they may be in isolated situations they are not useful as a long term solution. This has born out in this conflict. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Erika Hulme 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.01.10 06:03:00 - [15] Originally by: Svett WTB ISS shares. Seriously. Is Dian tired of managing soon-to-be hundreds of outposts? I would do the same tbh, despite their alliance shortcomings, ISS's expertise in outposts logistics is probably the best you can get.
FowlPlayChiken Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.01.10 06:04:00 - [16] im buying iss shares here as a sort of collectors item:-p since they arent worth anything. really! sell them to me ^_^ Just podded this sig, now where is my toy? - Wrangler
Prophet Malcalypse3 Amarr Her Golden Apple Corps	Posted - 2007.01.10 06:05:00 - [17] i forsee a fnord in the future
Maria Ravenwind Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.01.10 06:18:00 - [18] Edited by: Maria Ravenwind on 10/01/2007 06:15:13 The entire idea that because ISS does not physically own the outpost, and thus does not care if they lose them is baseless. It does not matter that they didn't put their money into it. Take ISS Marginis for example. Yes, the pilots that built the outpost did not pay for it. But they did build it. And they did live there, and the outpost did have their name on it. Those three things can mean more than any amount of isk invested into an outpost. For all extensive purposes, ISS does actually own all of the outposts that bear their name. The EVE world has learned a valuable lesson through ISS. Neutrality does not matter. Ownership does not matter. What matters is who lives there, who built it, and who refuels those POS on a weekly basis. You have an emotional investment in those projects.
Algey ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.10 08:07:00 - [19] Originally by: Nez Perces Edited by: Nez Perces on 10/01/2007 05:41:59 You know all this talk of shares and stuff is all very nice... but its aimed at the wrong kind of corporate activity. PVP corporations should float themselves on the stockmarket. EVE IS ABOUT PVP .. how many times does it have to be said? Yeah some people don't like pvp and thats fine but they aren't really playing EVE.. they are playing something else, and I don't know what it is. My point is... you can really measure pvp performance and pvp corporations make as much ISK as the "industrial" ones, every decent heayweight pvp entity has an industrial backing. My point being... Outbreak shares who wouldn't buy some of those in a heartbeat? Or RKK/Dice/BNC/Evol shares, MC shares? or hell even some Burn Eden shares might pay out some decent dividends.. if you could trust Shin Ra to pay up Celestial Apocalypse shares perhaps? for those who like a longshot...(just kidding ) OFC this is unlikely to happen as the people running such corps know that this share business is pie in the sky till CCP actually incorporate it properly into the game mechanics with some proper management tools or other goodies. All this industrially oriented replication of market forces and other claptrap from RL is a waste of time. But hey its EVE and everybody is entitled to waste their time as they see fit. Some things from RL don't work in EVE and things from EVE don't work in RL... a classic example is communism. In RL it just does not work...but in EVE some of the most powerful corporations work just fine on it. Now I'm starting to see why you spend so much time and effort trolling ISS threads. You are trying to defend your vision of what the game is, against all logic. The vast majority of players in this game have nothing to do with PvP combat at all. You could say that you're the one thats's not really playing eve Seriously though, the beauty of this game is that everyone can carve their own niche out. You feeling that their method isn't valid makes no difference at all.
xh'duality Caldari Caldari Luftwaffe Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.01.10 09:14:00 - [20] Edited by: xh''duality on 10/01/2007 09:12:11 Edited by: xh''duality on 10/01/2007 09:11:31 OMFG yet again a nother ISS thread. WTF is up with this??? For me it's still simple and easy to see. 0.0 is all about Conquering and maintaining stabilaty for your own Alliance. There is not such thing as Peace. If you can't defend what you build stop to wine about it. We started shooting ISS for one and ONLY one reason. PEW PEW em all. Yea some sayed MAYBE we might attack theyre station's (wich ISS dont even own so why even bother). ISS saw an oppertunaty to take our station's and tryed to get away clean. Now theyre losing cause they started something they cant win and all this yap yap is on now. O wait the MAYBE we might attack wich has been twisted around how many times by ISS already is getting old. So now ISS show lack of what they said to theyre shareholder's. They always say that ISS navy is there for to protect theyre asset's yet they claim to be a none combat alliance. So let me try to get this straight a none combat alliance tell other people to buy theyre share as they protect em. With whta???? A bunch of high skilled miner's? A mining Moros? WTF ISS realy dosent know WTF tehyre saying + doing. For them it's just all about theyre own wallet nothing more nothing less. So could we plz finly start enjoying this War without having soo many threat's about IAC are the bad guy. Just look in Eve history book about how any Alliances die before. Did they all try to make theyre Enemies look bad just cause they didnt know what they where doing? Dont think so. --------------------------------------------------- It take's 10 finger's for to smacktalk and ONLY ONE TO WIN [The all mighty "I WIN BOTTON"]

steamy Infinite Technologies	Posted - 2007.01.10 09:54:00 - [21] Originally by: xh'duality There is not such thing as Peace. I might need this quote a few months from now so I will save it. I think you are right Xh. ISS hasn't lost any ISK on loosing the stations, pilots did however loose their homes. After living somewhere for a longer time, I doubt it makes such a big difference if you paid for the station or not. What ISS is doing changes the perspective of Eve for a lot of people in a positive way. The current gang bang is used by some people as an excuse to test a "landlord Theory" and by others probably out of jealousy or envy. ISS also shouldn't need to have a big defense force, if they did, then they would be considered a threat in another way, and alliances would take ISS on because of their defense capabilities. Looking back, I don't see "really" what could have been done better and what would have prevented the gang bang that is going on now. All I can see is some people take pride in trying to destroy something that makes Eve unique as an MMO. ISS however, in contrary as stated earlier in this thread, will not simply die, it can't. You are not attacking ISS, you are attacking an idea backed up by ISK. Steamy If you only look at the road ahead, Life isn't worth the trip -- Dante
Silvestri FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.01.10 14:02:00 - [22] There are alot of truths in that first initial thread...especially the part of when wars take place against one of the shareholders per say...So if I'm at war...and ISS is paying my enemy dividends....ISS becomes my enemy...They had a good concept but I think 0.0 is evolving to just who can get the biggest fleet warfare. Sad as it may seem....bigger blobs win. Why are ISS really 'neutral'? Cuz they're not on the map? Only people that can call ISS neutral really is the shareholders. Anyone at war with said shareholders ends up being at war with ISS as well...So if you get rid of ISS you cut off a huge chunk of funding your enemies. Maybe someday Eve will evolve out of Blob warfare....
Graius Accretion Dynamics Center for Disease Creation	Posted - 2007.01.10 14:05:00 - [23] Edited by: Graius on 10/01/2007 14:03:20 Edited by: Graius on 10/01/2007 14:02:19 Originally by: Nez Perces EVE IS ABOUT PVP .. how many times does it have to be said? Yeah some people don't like pvp and thats fine but they aren't really playing EVE.. they are playing something else, and I don't know what it is. I think PvEers could do without PvPers far easier than PvPers couls do without PvEers. How many PvP corps (especially smaller ones) mine, research and build their own stuff? EVE is about doing what you want to do, as you seem to acknowledge yourself: Originally by: Nez Perces But hey its EVE and everybody is entitled to waste their time as they see fit. :-) Originally by: Nez Perces Some things from RL don't work in EVE and things from EVE don't work in RL... a classic example is communism. In RL it just does not work...but in EVE some of the most powerful corporations work just fine on it. In economic terms, 'communism' only really applies when discussing entire economies, and to use the concept on a single organization doesn't really work. Lots of real life organizations work like what you call 'communist' EVE corps (many territory-holding 0.0 corps resemble criminal organizations like street gangs or mobsters, for instance). However, it is patently obvious that EVE has a primarily marked-based economy, even though it is markedly different from a real-world capitalist economy. As an Empire pirate told me when I was first starting out, '0.0 is just gangs and emptiness'. However, nothing says it has to stay that forever; 0.0 could just as easily be an experiment in building a frontier society, or anything else the players might want to try out.
Tom Nealon Tommy Gunners Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.13 17:27:00 - [24] Excellent post Logan. ISS's outpost plan was a good idea as long as neighbouring alliances didn't see them as a threat or couldn't be bothered with running those outposts themselves. Any alliance with a open recruitment is going to have a number of scumbags who take advantage and pass on intel or attack friendlies so no big suprise there. IAC's leadership have shown a lot of skill in this conflict's execution and the reasons given to their troops for the war (ISS are a bunch of backstabbing gits) while excellent for motivational purposes are not the real story. As said by IAC pilots already they wanted pew pew and when it got ramped up with LV and MC involvement they took advantage by involving Goon,-A- and TC and then get F4 back and capture marginis. Very nice work. Although it may not look it the conflict also makes ISS stronger by making corps that dont contribute leave and giving the pvpers something to do. I know the conflict has made me value ISS more and given me reason to contribute when I can. Hopefully in the end ISS will be a leaner meaner organisation.

Kreul Intentions Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2007.01.13 18:09:00 - [25] Alt post, a lot of ISS threads so redundant. Lockage incoming. forum rules \| [email protected]



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