| Pages: [1] :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
crostini
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
0
   |
Posted - 2011.12.13 03:16:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hopefully somebody can help me out.
I saw a large buy order at one of the trade hubs. The price was much higher than the going rate, but didnt' think I had anything to lose. The buy order was for 1,000,000 pieces, could not sell just 1 to the order.
So, I moved a 1,000,000 pieces and clicked, sell item.
So, a sell order was created for 3 months, and the orignal buy order disappeared.
Any insight into this, what did I miss.
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
533
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 03:44:00 -
[2] - Quote
As they say, if something sounds too good to be true, it usually is (too good to be true).
So, yes, it "sort of" was a kind of scam.
But it was only a scam if they made you buy that many at over market usual price.
Otherwise, it was just an annoyance (which you accidentally made worse).
What you missed was two things.
1. You used advanced sell instead of simple sell when attempting to sell to an existing buy order.
...that was just an aside, by the way, you shot yourself in the foot there fair and square (and not just in this case, but constantly when you sell stuff).
So... yeah... NEVER do that. Why pay broker fees when you don't have to ?
When selling to existing buy orders, use simple sell.
Or at least select "instant" instead of the 3 months (should not have you pay broker fees, but I am not 100% sure about that, so just use simple order instead).
2. The "Margin Trading" skill.
In particular, the way the game treats buy orders that can't be covered by existing ISK in the purchaser's wallet.
Namely, the order gets automatically canceled without anything being transacted. The would-be buyer has to pay the broker fees again to put the order back up.
So how does that help these guys "scam" ?
Well, first, some guy with not enough ISK in the wallet to cover the full order sets up a large order with a huge minimal quantity (well above the usual traded volume) at a very attractive price (noticeably higher than market average). That's "the bait".
Then, other guy sells a lot of that particular stuff at ABOVE usual market price (in either batches smaller than the minimum buy volume, or in a station a bit farther away), but still at a price below that of the big buy order. That's "the switch" (ok, not really fitting that analogy, but eh, close enough).
So, people end up buying stuff well above market value, then find out they can't sell it at (what they thought) would have been a much better price, because the order vanishes as soon as somebody tries to sell to it.
Of course, if you take a look at the large order quantity (almost nobody legitimately sets minimum quantity above 1, unless it's for a regional order of something tiny and cheap, like, say, minerals) and the fact it's well above market value (plus quantity-wise a lot over usual daily transaction amounts), you could tell something's fishy and just stay away from it even if you didn't know how margin trading works.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Contributor_name:Akita_T#Contributions_link_collection |
crostini
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 03:52:00 -
[3] - Quote
Thank you Akita, very helpful.
I didn't realize the Margin Trading skill acted that way.
I did notice "they" were selling the same item in the station at a higher price, it made me think they could cancel the buy order once they saw movement. So I was able to fill their buy order from product that I had manufactured to fill their buy order.
It is interesting that when I clicked sell item from my hanger, that it created an advanced sell order instead of going to the next lowest buy order. |
Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
20
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 04:00:00 -
[4] - Quote
crostini wrote:
It is interesting that when I clicked sell item from my hanger, that it created an advanced sell order instead of going to the next lowest buy order.
That's because you opened an advanced sell order. If you had selected "simple" order, it would have silently failed with the bogus buy order vanishing and you could try again with another simple order to the next higher buy. |
Paola Andriani
Perkone
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.14 01:25:00 -
[5] - Quote
Do not feed the troll. |
|
CCP Spitfire
C C P
C C P Alliance
546
|
Posted - 2011.12.14 09:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
Offtopic posts removed.
CCP Spitfire | Russian Community Coordinator
@ccp_spitfire |
|
Tanith YarnDemon
Hypernet Inc.
Umbrella Chemical Inc
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.14 11:43:00 -
[7] - Quote
Just figured I'd point out that using the advanced sale window you can still achieve the same thing by choosing "immediate" for duration, it voids the fees in the same way and can of course never create a sell order. |
OllieNorth
Recidivists Incorporated
21
|
Posted - 2011.12.14 16:03:00 -
[8] - Quote
This is a fresh take on this scam. Nice to see someone who got taken but didn't lose much money. |
Miss Margin
Miss Margin Corp
4
|
Posted - 2011.12.14 17:16:00 -
[9] - Quote
Quote:1. You used advanced sell instead of simple sell when attempting to sell to an existing buy order.
...that was just an aside, by the way, you shot yourself in the foot there fair and square (and not just in this case, but constantly when you sell stuff).
So... yeah... NEVER do that. Why pay broker fees when you don't have to ?
When selling to existing buy orders, use simple sell.
Thank you for that Akita, I've been playing a while and never picked that up.
This character is for Sale, pure trade skills.-á
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=517979#post517979
|
Jack Cavanaugh
Mechanical Eagles Inc.
The Ancients.
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.14 18:04:00 -
[10] - Quote
I'm not sure how this constitutes a "fresh take" on the old margin scam because it's...uh...the old margin scam.
Anyway, I would highly recommend on acquainting yourself with common eve online scams with a little googling. |
LoBlo Fet
Brutor Tribe
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.18 21:13:00 -
[11] - Quote
Sounds like the best way that this should be combatted is for Eve to
1. Eve mechanics should immediatedly ignore the minimum setting
2. Allow the buy order to go through in the amount that it will take the buyer to 0.00isk
That should prevent this from being abused.
|
Brock Nelson
99
|
Posted - 2011.12.18 22:25:00 -
[12] - Quote
LoBlo Fet wrote:2. Allow the buy order to go through in the amount that it will take the buyer to 0.00isk
No. This will affect those who uses margin trading legitimacy |
LoBlo Fet
Brutor Tribe
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 13:07:00 -
[13] - Quote
Brock Nelson wrote:No. This will affect those who uses margin trading legitimacy
So in what way can a player put up a minimal order for an item for which he/she can't even fund the minimal order be legitimate?
|
Khered Rhalla
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 13:49:00 -
[14] - Quote
Edit 1: NVM, misread. Ignore this.
Edit 2: Actually, thinking about this a little more, such possibilities of scamming are more of a feature, than anything else.
Eve is at the end of the day a game of outwitting your competitors. Using this market feature as a "scamming" system adds a method by which you can outwit your fellow players.
Eve has been reducing the amount of methods by which to scam people, but I believe only really once it got out of hand.
Free form contracts come to mind, as they ended up being used for nothing but scamming.
As long as this isn't overused to the point of largely braking the market (unlikely to happen I believe), people will have to rely on their wit to not fall for it. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
579
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 16:57:00 -
[15] - Quote
LoBlo Fet wrote:Brock Nelson wrote:No. This will affect those who uses margin trading legitimacy So in what way can a player put up a minimal order for an item for which he/she can't even fund the minimal order be legitimate?
First off, having that additional limitation in place when PLACING the order will not do much good - all the player has to do is send out the ISK after placing the order.
And I hope you're not suggesting to re-compare ISK wallet amount and auto-cancel all orders that go underfunded every time ISK is taken out of the wallet, because that would be murder on the server database-workload-wise AND could very well lead to some legitimate orders dropping off on legitimate traders that play it a tad bit too close.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Contributor_name:Akita_T#Contributions_link_collection |
OllieNorth
Recidivists Incorporated
26
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 17:01:00 -
[16] - Quote
I think the only reasonable way to limit this scam would be to allow wallets to go into the negatives. I know that people would still do it on throwaway alts, but at least SOME of the offenders would be weeded out. I honestly don't feel that it needs revision, I think it is fine and at worst a "Welcome to EVE" mechanic.
As far as being a fresh take, I meant that it was nice to see someone fall for this but not have to buy up all of the units, instead of the usual "I spent 100 million isk to buy all of these and all I got was a sell order". |
Ghoest
31
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 17:11:00 -
[17] - Quote
OllieNorth wrote:I think the only reasonable way to limit this scam would be to allow wallets to go into the negatives. I know that people would still do it on throwaway alts, but at least SOME of the offenders would be weeded out. I honestly don't feel that it needs revision, I think it is fine and at worst a "Welcome to EVE" mechanic.
As far as being a fresh take, I meant that it was nice to see someone fall for this but not have to buy up all of the units, instead of the usual "I spent 100 million isk to buy all of these and all I got was a sell order".
Or you CCP could do the obvious and auto erase any buy individual order that exceeds your wallet.
Wherever You Went - Here You Are |
OllieNorth
Recidivists Incorporated
26
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 17:34:00 -
[18] - Quote
Why is this obvious? The whole idea for margin trading is to let you leverage yourself, so that you can pay the order once sell orders you have up come through. Not to mention the horrible server load involved. |
Ghoest
32
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 18:39:00 -
[19] - Quote
OllieNorth wrote:Why is this obvious? The whole idea for margin trading is to let you leverage yourself, so that you can pay the order once sell orders you have up come through. Not to mention the horrible server load involved.
Umm no.
The idea of margin trading is that I can have multiple(in most cases over 100) buy orders for different items in different locations. I never know which ones are likely to be filled but the majority wont be filled in any given short time frame.
If you are simply posting one order there is no reason you need margin trading. Just repost the when its filled or close to being filled.
Wherever You Went - Here You Are |
Dielax
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 19:39:00 -
[20] - Quote
i'm thinking this answers my thread below. |
Srioghal moDhream
B and T Inc
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 20:58:00 -
[21] - Quote
I have already stated the easiest most simple solution to the margin trading scam.
Make it so that the min buy amount cannot exceed the escrow amount.
so if you have margin trading at 50% of cost and you want to buy say 20,000 items at 50,000 a pop. You would need to put 500mill in escrow (out of 1 billion total required).
So limit the min buy amount to be 500 mill/50000 or 10000 items. That way the buy order can be fully completed if it is legit and there is no way to make it so the whole order will just fail. You will always be able to full up to the escrow amount, this is why there is escrow in the first place. |
LoBlo Fet
Brutor Tribe
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 22:09:00 -
[22] - Quote
Akita T wrote:I hope you're not suggesting to re-compare ISK wallet amount and auto-cancel all orders that go underfunded every time ISK is taken out of the wallet, because that would be murder on the server database-workload-wise AND could very well lead to some legitimate orders dropping off on legitimate traders that play it a tad bit too close.
No, that's not what I'm suggesting.
Akita T wrote:First off, having that additional limitation in place when PLACING the order will not do much good - all the player has to do is send out the ISK after placing the order.
yeah, your right. The problem would still be there.
OllieNorth wrote:I think the only reasonable way to limit this scam would be to allow wallets to go into the negatives. I know that people would still do it on throwaway alts, but at least SOME of the offenders would be weeded out. I honestly don't feel that it needs revision, I think it is fine and at worst a "Welcome to EVE" mechanic.
You already hit the nail on the head with negative wallets. A player would train up margin trading, buy a bunch of orders he/she can't afford and go negative. Put the products into a corp hanger or cargo container and then delete the character with the real/main character scooping up the goods later (in a freighter or from the corp hanger). It would be even a bigger exploit.
Guess there isn't a real good solution except to just be on the lookout for this scam. Welcome to Eve for the new players out there.
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
579
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 22:36:00 -
[23] - Quote
I personally like the fact scams exist.
It gives a painful first-hand lesson to greedy and/or hasty and/or stupid people about just how greedy, silly or in a rush they are.
We can only hope they'll be able to recognize that as a lesson and remember it for next time.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Contributor_name:Akita_T#Contributions_link_collection |
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
Pleasure Syndicate
26
|
Posted - 2011.12.20 11:24:00 -
[24] - Quote
Quote:
Or at least select "instant" instead of the 3 months (should not have you pay broker fees, but I am not 100% sure about that, so just use simple order instead).
You are correct here, no broker fee if immediate dropdown is used in advanced sell menu.
Btw you could theoretically scam the scammer by giving them enough ISK to complete the transaction and selling them the items the put the buy order for :) You'd have to guess their margin trade level though. |
Cendres Ange
STEMA Traders Inc
11
|
Posted - 2011.12.20 11:57:00 -
[25] - Quote
Scams are a part of EvE and fun as well. Got scammed as a newbie for almost all the isk I had. I didnt like it much at the time, but I said to myself, "lesson learned" and more carefully watch with what I do with my isk now. EvE is all about PvP, outwitting your opponent as previously stated. But the arena for this outwitting could be in space, on the market, in a corp or wherever. Its a part of the game, do not remove it. Best way to avoid falling into a trap, is to look out for the signs.
Improve sorting of orders
Custom window presets |
Mu-Shi Ai
The Chrysalis Group
5
|
Posted - 2011.12.21 06:29:00 -
[26] - Quote
I've never understood why people think this is a "scam" (in the sense of something that should precipitate a rules or mechanics change). You don't have any right for a buy order to still exist after you purchase a bunch of goods expecting to sell to it. Every trading opportunity in EVE is ephemeral. It just so happens that somebody figured out a way to use a working game mechanic to trigger that ephemerality on demand.
Margin Trading is very useful for purposes that aren't this "scam." Anybody who buys in markets where items trickle in slowly will understand its importance right away. |
Haruhi Hime
Tokugawa Heavy Industries
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.22 06:21:00 -
[27] - Quote
OllieNorth wrote:I think the only reasonable way to limit this scam would be to allow wallets to go into the negatives. I know that people would still do it on throwaway alts, but at least SOME of the offenders would be weeded out. I honestly don't feel that it needs revision, I think it is fine and at worst a "Welcome to EVE" mechanic.
As far as being a fresh take, I meant that it was nice to see someone fall for this but not have to buy up all of the units, instead of the usual "I spent 100 million isk to buy all of these and all I got was a sell order".
And you were almost there, if ccp allowed negative wallets, and people had throwaway alts, they'd be scamming themselves :)
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |