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Don Pera Saissore
61
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Posted - 2015.12.01 18:35:15 -
[1] - Quote
I observed something on the market recently and im not sure if its an advanced trading tactic or just people being stupid.
Dodixie saw a price spike for nanite paste, the price went up to 39000 and i started selling everything i had. At first the competition was reasonable and everyone was modifying the price by 0,1 isk to be on top and there isnt that many orders so everything was civilized. Then at some point people started lowering the price drastically from 39000 to 35000 to 27000 and now 24 hours later its down to 20000 with about 10 people competing.
My question is why would you do this? why cant you just wait your turn like everyone else? Why ruin the price for yourself and all the other competitors, you wont sell any faster cos the price is still ok for me and im gonna lower it by 0.1, all you did was ruin the price. |

Harry Flowerpot
Three-Headed Monkeys
1
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Posted - 2015.12.01 19:20:27 -
[2] - Quote
Because some people have an actual life. |

Degnar Oskold
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
173
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Posted - 2015.12.01 19:45:07 -
[3] - Quote
I do this to troll all the 0.01 iskers. I don't care about the money I lose, I like the feeling that knowing that others are whining in private (and some take it public). |

Avi Shekelstien
New Order Logistics CODE.
46
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Posted - 2015.12.01 20:36:51 -
[4] - Quote
Nanite compound has dropped a fair bit too. |

Zad Murrard
Perkone Caldari State
18
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Posted - 2015.12.01 20:39:42 -
[5] - Quote
It's perfectly reasonable there can be many reasons. eg. one possible scenario: (amounts are inaccurate but you get the picture) - some guy with 100 paste thinks that if he lowers the price by X then for sure those big guys with 10000 to be sold will not follow and he can sell his paste quickly, he also does this knowing that he has to log soon - now a random guy with 500 thinks that well, for sure they will not follow him either - at this point one of the guys with 10000 panics and sees that the price is going down and updates his price to follow, now rest of the 10k + guys follow also panicking - another person with 57 sees the prices and thinks similarly to a and says to himself, ok, they dropped a bit but if I know drop even more then they must be mad if they follow...and the cycle continues - one of the 10k+ guys now starts to think that maybe the high price has lured in people from jita, damn, if they are here it will take forever to sell the stuff, thus he decreases the price quite a bit just to block people from jita coming. Whether they are actually coming is irrellevant, this is just how he thinks. - then market manipulator X starts to think that if he's able to dip the price low enough, it should bounce back soon enough making him a profit, thus he starts knowningly dropping the price.
Ie. there can be dozens of valid reasons..it's just how the market behaves.
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Don Pera Saissore
61
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Posted - 2015.12.01 20:41:49 -
[6] - Quote
Degnar Oskold wrote:I do this to troll all the 0.01 iskers. I don't care about the money I lose, I like the feeling that knowing that others are whining in private (and some take it public).
No one is wining, you just crash the price. You didnt stop anyone from selling, the price is still higher then in other trade hubs. No tears were harvested. |

Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3862
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Posted - 2015.12.01 21:22:44 -
[7] - Quote
Don Pera Saissore wrote:I observed something on the market recently and im not sure if its an advanced trading tactic or just people being stupid.
Dodixie saw a price spike for nanite paste, the price went up to 39000 and i started selling everything i had. At first the competition was reasonable and everyone was modifying the price by 0,1 isk to be on top and there isnt that many orders so everything was civilized. Then at some point people started lowering the price drastically from 39000 to 35000 to 27000 and now 24 hours later its down to 20000 with about 10 people competing.
My question is why would you do this? why cant you just wait your turn like everyone else? Why ruin the price for yourself and all the other competitors, you wont sell any faster cos the price is still ok for me and im gonna lower it by 0.1, all you did was ruin the price.
Markets working as intended.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3862
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Posted - 2015.12.01 21:24:15 -
[8] - Quote
Don Pera Saissore wrote:Degnar Oskold wrote:I do this to troll all the 0.01 iskers. I don't care about the money I lose, I like the feeling that knowing that others are whining in private (and some take it public). No one is wining, you just crash the price. You didnt stop anyone from selling, the price is still higher then in other trade hubs. No tears were harvested.
Sure someone is "winning". All those people buying at a lower price than they otherwise would have bought at.
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Cista2
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
185
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Posted - 2015.12.01 21:28:28 -
[9] - Quote
Don Pera Saissore wrote: 24 hours later its down to 20000 with about 10 people competing. The one lowering the price was probably not hoping for that result. In some cases you can shed some competitors. Maybe it did not work for him in this particular situation, but in others it might.
It is like a poker game. You make some moves, like betting with a draw, that in some outcomes leads to your own ruin, but if it is the profitable thing to do in enough outcomes, then it is what you should do.
Other recent thread.
My channel: "Signatures"
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Recommended: "The Biomass Bar" (for corpse selling)
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3862
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Posted - 2015.12.01 21:30:43 -
[10] - Quote
Cista2 wrote:Don Pera Saissore wrote: 24 hours later its down to 20000 with about 10 people competing. The one lowering the price was probably not hoping for that result. In some cases you can shed some competitors. Maybe it did not work for him in this particular situation, but in others it might. It is like a poker game. You make some moves, like betting with a draw, that in some outcomes leads to your own ruin, but if it is the profitable thing to do in enough outcomes, then it is what you should do. Other recent thread.
I thought you did not do profitable. 
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Sabriz Adoudel
Black Hydra Consortium.
5552
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Posted - 2015.12.01 22:26:30 -
[11] - Quote
If an item is trading well above fundamentals and I'm a net consumer of the item, I will often post my own personal supplies on the market at above equilibrium price, but well below current sell price.
That may be the motive of one or more of the people involved.
I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
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Do Little
Bluenose Trading
249
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Posted - 2015.12.01 23:42:51 -
[12] - Quote
This is a normal part of the cycle - I see it all the time. Prices will drop to the point where the product is not profitable discouraging sellers from bringing new supply to market and then spike back up when the low price stuff sells out. The high price will bring sellers to the market but discourage buyers creating oversupply. Eventually people get impatient to sell their inventory and the price drops to normal range. |

Buzz Orti
State War Academy Caldari State
59
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Posted - 2015.12.02 01:05:40 -
[13] - Quote
I think PI price may change, but I don't know what the new citadel will need.
I just put a Victorieux Luxury Yacht BPC on contract at 80 million and hope to cash in when I get back...
I don't know how long the previous structure will remain or if they will be impossible to buy. I heard it will be possible to tether (perhaps to transfer assets) them to the citadel but I don't know for how long.
(I have about 129 orders and never posted more than 25 or 35 at the same time so far. It shouldn't take long however.) |

Paul Pohl
blue media poetry
36
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Posted - 2015.12.02 01:56:41 -
[14] - Quote
You said yourself it was a spike.
Maybe there is a structural issue with where the Dodixie price fits into the market for the big traders
Or perhaps whoever or whatever was driving the price up made their money/came to an end and the price corrected itself |

Shiloh Templeton
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
463
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Posted - 2015.12.02 02:25:40 -
[15] - Quote
If it's something I manufactured I will sometimes price it at the profit margin I want instead of the higher price. Partly for babysitting reasons and partly because I don't care for price gouging IRL (i.e. military, education, medical, etc).
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Cista2
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
186
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Posted - 2015.12.02 07:44:01 -
[16] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:[quote=Cista2][quote=Don Pera Saissore] I thought you did not do profitable.  Oh look I have a new baby stalker :)
Everybody always seeks to do the most profitable for themselves in the long run. But unless you can actually update your orders every 5 minutes almost 24 hours per day, 0.01 isking each item is often not the most profitable for you. And it wouldn't always be the best thing to do even if you could.
If price is tak+¡ng a downswing before you can turn over your stock, 0.01 isking will be a losing strategy. That's a prisoner's dilemma, depending on the behaviour of the competition. In other cases, you try to shake off competition by drastically reducing sell price, again speculating in the behaviour of others.
You don't want to hold the bag 0.01 isking when the money can be used better elsewhere.
My channel: "Signatures"
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Recommended: "The Biomass Bar" (for corpse selling)
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Aleare Spinechiller
Dayra Industries
0
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Posted - 2015.12.02 18:00:29 -
[17] - Quote
I didn't do the item in question, nor do I really operate out of Dodixie but like many others I'm sure, I've resorted to that tactic for a number of reasons, and have thought of many other reasons to do such a thing. A few examples could include
1: I'm a buyer of that item and I don't like paying exceedingly large prices, so if I see active order refresh competition going on like is normally the case, I will attempt to speed it up to get closer to the price I want to pay. It may take me an extra 20-30 mins but I easily save millions, and with you dropping your price below mine by only .01 isk it means my losses from selling personal stock are non-existent since I can buy all my "Sales" back from you for less.
2: I'm attempting to shed the competition, I often don't have time to sit and play the .01 isk game for hours on end, but you'd be surprised how quickly competition disappears after you take large chunks off a few times in a row. Show the other "Investors" its a loosing battle and they'll loose interest in competing. I may loose millions I could've otherwise made by .01 isk modifications but I do loose millions in lost time from not being able to sit there and update orders. My time is often more valuable and profitable if I can scare my competition into giving up the order modification battle for a few hours and then I can head off and go do other profitable activities other than baby sitting my orders.
3: I just simply hate nickle and dimeing everything. To me modifying an order by .01 isk is like saying "yea what he said +1". most times that .01 isk is a grand savings of 10 or less isk to the buyer. Its such a drag to think that 10 isks on orders of billions of isk is literally the difference between the person buying from me or you. 10 isk is insignificant and it really bothers me that we automatically default to the cheapest sale order just to save it. So ultimately, I try not to play that game. I do on occasion when it makes sense, like on tritanium since the price literally is so low .01 isk makes sense, but when I'm talking anything above a 1k price point, I usually just round my numbers off to the nearest 100th of the posting price (except I try to end my bids in the numbers 95 because I like that for some odd reason). That way the reason people are buying from me isn't just saving 10 isk or less so I feel somewhat better about it. (I also on occasion buy from more expensive orders for the same reason if I can tell they aren't actively competing by .01 isk, I mean they end up costing less than a million more and that's insignificant)
4: I just want to crash the price (Never actually done this one before but I've thought about it). The game often boils down to costing others money just as much as its about making it for yourself. So if I know a particular individual that I dislike is invested heavily into a specific item with good profitability, I totally would not be above working to crash that market. I've never done this yet and I'm sure it will cost money/profit to enact, but done effectively you could crash a price and force them to spend time selling the large stock they built up at low or no profit prices (or better yet force them to hold onto it for market recovery so they have significant assets tied up) while putting in a ton of extra time assessing the markets to find the next item to push into production and get moving. Its not going to cripple or kill anyone's wallet but it could very effectively trip them up in wealth development and force them to devote more time making up for lost ground caused by the crash. |

Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6946
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Posted - 2015.12.02 18:02:04 -
[18] - Quote
Sometimes you just do it for fun to punish the 0.01er. The thing is, I'm rarely too heavily invested in any one market, so if too many other people come along and start 0.01ing something too frequently I don't really lose anything by crashing out the market and holding it flat. But especially when there's a recent spike, some of the others may be too heavily invested and now have a whole bunch of stock they can sell at a loss (often to me) or that they have to sit on while I am of happily trading away in hundreds of other items.
Sometimes they do one better and buy me out. I usually keep several stack of items and sell at a small profit after tax. If they buy me out I keep hammering stock in until they run out of funds. Done right you can get someone to heavily over invest in something that will take a long time to sell with no real prospect of spiking, which aside from helping you by reducing competition on other products is funny as hell.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3868
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Posted - 2015.12.02 19:45:56 -
[19] - Quote
Cista2 wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: I thought you did not do profitable.  Oh look I have a new baby stalker :) Everybody always seeks to do the most profitable for themselves in the long run. But unless you can actually update your orders every 5 minutes almost 24 hours per day, 0.01 isking each item is often not the most profitable for you. And it wouldn't always be the best thing to do even if you could. If price is tak+¡ng a downswing before you can turn over your stock, 0.01 isking will be a losing strategy. That's a prisoner's dilemma, depending on the behaviour of the competition. In other cases, you try to shake off competition by drastically reducing sell price, again speculating in the behaviour of others. You don't want to hold the bag 0.01 isking when the money can be used better elsewhere.
What? I was posting in this thread before you and I just happened to recall your daft posts. You poo-pooed the idea of profit maximization, but then you write this, "Everybody always seeks to do the most profitable for themselves in the long run."
And where does trying to earn maximum profits mean you have to do the 0.01 thing every 5 minutes? If it is costly to do so...then don't.

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Cpt'Spoony
CEED.
0
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Posted - 2015.12.02 20:19:22 -
[20] - Quote
Cista2 wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: I thought you did not do profitable. Everybody always seeks to do the most profitable for themselves in the long run. But unless you can actually update your orders every 5 minutes almost 24 hours per day, 0.01 isking each item is often not the most profitable for you. And it wouldn't always be the best thing to do even if you could. If price is tak+¡ng a downswing before you can turn over your stock, 0.01 isking will be a losing strategy. That's a prisoner's dilemma, depending on the behaviour of the competition. In other cases, you try to shake off competition by drastically reducing sell price, again speculating in the behaviour of others. You don't want to hold the bag 0.01 isking when the money can be used better elsewhere.
This makes no sense at all..
If I'm playing the 0.1 game on the market and you drop the price by a larger amount, guess what.. we just -0.1 that price and carry on as usual. There is zero benefit to you doing this.
The only time this is different is when you really undercut everyone with a small number of items. In those cases I'll just buy your stock and re-list them on the market - making the profit for you :)
It's annoying seeing people doing this but it makes little difference when you have tons or orders up. |
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Sheeth Athonille
Rabid Dogz Mining Void..
59
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Posted - 2015.12.02 23:04:26 -
[21] - Quote
Aleare Spinechiller wrote: (I also on occasion buy from more expensive orders for the same reason if I can tell they aren't actively competing by .01 isk, I mean they end up costing less than a million more and that's insignificant)
Just wanted to interject, umm how are you doing that? |

Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
752
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Posted - 2015.12.02 23:19:08 -
[22] - Quote
Sheeth Athonille wrote:Aleare Spinechiller wrote: (I also on occasion buy from more expensive orders for the same reason if I can tell they aren't actively competing by .01 isk, I mean they end up costing less than a million more and that's insignificant) Just wanted to interject, umm how are you doing that?
You can't, all they are doing is giving more ISK to the people who are undercutting .
WTS ME 10 TE 20 BPOs & BPO Packs
WTS Collectible Large Rigged Small/Medium Ships
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Cista2
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
188
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Posted - 2015.12.03 07:11:46 -
[23] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:You poo-pooed the idea of profit maximization, but then you write this, "Everybody always seeks to do the most profitable for themselves in the long run." I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, but can you really not fathom the difference between maximising the profit per unit on the item that you are currently selling, and selling it for a lower price when that is the most profitable for you in the long run?.
By now I half expect you to not even try and understand what I have just written and just answer with some attempted insult and another eyeroll icon. You won't get me to repeat myself even more times though :)
My channel: "Signatures"
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Recommended: "The Biomass Bar" (for corpse selling)
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Cista2
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
188
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Posted - 2015.12.03 07:19:49 -
[24] - Quote
Cpt'Spoony wrote: If I'm playing the 0.1 game on the market and you drop the price by a larger amount, guess what.. we just -0.1 that price and carry on as usual. Oh I wish that was that was true for more of your brotherhood dear sir, then we would not have these identical 0.01 ISKer threads appearing here every week, whining over how they can not make profit on this and this item. And I would get less hate mail :)
My channel: "Signatures"
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Recommended: "The Biomass Bar" (for corpse selling)
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3897
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Posted - 2015.12.05 04:05:04 -
[25] - Quote
Cista2 wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:You poo-pooed the idea of profit maximization, but then you write this, "Everybody always seeks to do the most profitable for themselves in the long run." I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, but can you really not fathom the difference between maximising the profit per unit on the item that you are currently selling, and selling it for a lower price when that is the most profitable for you in the long run?. By now I fully expect you to not even try and understand what I have just written and just answer with some attempted insult and another eyeroll icon. You won't get me to repeat myself even more times though, as I am putting you on ignore now :)
Did I say maximizing profit per unit? No, I did not. I do not need to insult you, you've done a fine job of insulting yourself.
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Traider Jane
Bits and Bobs
0
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Posted - 2015.12.07 03:43:46 -
[26] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Don Pera Saissore wrote:Degnar Oskold wrote:I do this to troll all the 0.01 iskers. I don't care about the money I lose, I like the feeling that knowing that others are whining in private (and some take it public). No one is wining, you just crash the price. You didnt stop anyone from selling, the price is still higher then in other trade hubs. No tears were harvested. Sure someone is "winning". All those people buying at a lower price than they otherwise would have bought at.
Yeah, people are winning but most of them are people like you "Waaaa he 0.01 ISK'ed me!!!1!!!!"
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3939
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Posted - 2015.12.08 06:03:56 -
[27] - Quote
Traider Jane wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Don Pera Saissore wrote:Degnar Oskold wrote:I do this to troll all the 0.01 iskers. I don't care about the money I lose, I like the feeling that knowing that others are whining in private (and some take it public). No one is wining, you just crash the price. You didnt stop anyone from selling, the price is still higher then in other trade hubs. No tears were harvested. Sure someone is "winning". All those people buying at a lower price than they otherwise would have bought at. Yeah, people are winning but most of them are people like you "Waaaa he 0.01 ISK'ed me!!!1!!!!"
I don't trade, so whatever. 
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Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
439
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Posted - 2015.12.08 07:22:48 -
[28] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:I don't trade, so whatever. 
Walter Peck: Because I'm curious. I wanna know more about what you do here! Frankly, I've heard alot of wild stories in the media and we want to assess any possibility of dangerous and possibly hazardous waste chemicals in your basement. [Peck is angered] |

P'tank
Antwerpse Kerels RAZOR Alliance
15
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Posted - 2015.12.08 10:33:07 -
[29] - Quote
On a local market traders and producers meet eachother.
When a trader is able to buy below production cost, he will be able to lower the price up to a point the producer is unable to sell with a profit. The same thing works for a producer if he is able to produce below buy cost.
When either one of them wants to unload some goods without much effort or make sure competition will search for other oppertunities, it is possible the price is lowered in big chuncks for a good reason.
All in all, it's nice to **** others off. It's called market pvp. |
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