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S'totan
Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies.
55
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Posted - 2015.12.09 16:39:27 -
[1] - Quote
So, I know, I am bashing my head in over something small.... but why cant I fit a single dreadnaught's mineral requirements into a jump freighter once the minerals have been refined from ore, but I can fit 5 dreadnaughts mineral requirements into a jump freighter if i compress the ore? I mean, physically this just sounds weird. I can refine or compress 100 veldspar into 400ish Trit or 1 compressed veldspar(which also refines to 400ish trit) This means that I can take 10m3 and either refine it to 4m3 or compress it to 0.1-0.15 m3(when refined still nets 4 m3)
Why can I not compress the minerals if the same minerals are compressed to something smaller(mind you the refining process implies that you are removing impurities or making it smaller) as ore????
I have a picture to somewhat show this.
http://i.imgur.com/BzOy0Sv.png |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
9615
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Posted - 2015.12.09 16:47:01 -
[2] - Quote
Compression, innit
Got a HoleySheet1 corpse? I'll buy it for 200m!
Bumble's Space Log
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
9097
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Posted - 2015.12.09 16:51:01 -
[3] - Quote
You can easily transport 10g of powdered, unrefined crystals in a small 3cm by 3cm box.
You cannot easily transport the same 10g of crystals in the same small 3x3 box once the crystals have had water added to them... as their fully refined forms take up more volume.
How did you Veterans start?
The Skillpoint System and You
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1227
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Posted - 2015.12.09 16:55:20 -
[4] - Quote
I would guess that every unit of tritanium is individually packaged in a hand-crafted artisanal box made by ORE, in Outer Ring, except there aren't any unboxing videos on Youtube.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Cristl
262
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Posted - 2015.12.09 17:29:30 -
[5] - Quote
For those who seek the truth, the following anagram must be solved:
"Well, it's just fukcing retarded, obviously." |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1333
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Posted - 2015.12.09 18:35:34 -
[6] - Quote
Because if you can compress minerals there is no point to compress ore
In fact we used to have a form of mineral compression and we removed it to make our compression more relevant
I don't think we need to go back to mineral compression as this system ads a level of finality when dealing with reprocessing and gives a reason to have someone with reprocessing skills in areas of space outside of NS
and MOST importantlyprevents the high refine rates of null sec from making it impossible for new players and small groups from competing
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1229
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Posted - 2015.12.09 19:53:42 -
[7] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Because if you can compress minerals there is no point to compress ore
In fact we used to have a form of mineral compression and we removed it to make our compression more relevant
I don't think we need to go back to mineral compression as this system ads a level of finality when dealing with reprocessing and gives a reason to have someone with reprocessing skills in areas of space outside of NS
and MOST importantlyprevents the high refine rates of null sec from making it impossible for new players and small groups from competing
While those considerations aren't entirely without merit, it does make supply chain considerations for "pure" manufacturers somewhat... fucky, for lack of a better term, and blurs the boundaries between resource harvesting and production.
If I were running a machining shop, I wouldn't buy iron ore and handle the smelting myself, I'd call a foundry or steel wholesaler and order bar stock of whatever type/grade/alloy/however they differentiate various steel stock.
You need to be fairly massive before it becomes practical to split your efforts like that, but in Eve, it's the difference between two wildly disparate logistics scenarios.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2858
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Posted - 2015.12.09 20:15:18 -
[8] - Quote
Simplest composition is different states of refinement. In the rock itself it has impurities and takes on different properties, don't imagine that it's a nugget of trot sitting in the mud.
Think of water. I can't build an igloo with buckets of water, but I can with ice. Water has smaller volume (normally) than its solid form.
It's definitely a stretch of reason, but it's necessary to give any value to unrefined materials. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1231
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Posted - 2015.12.09 20:45:30 -
[9] - Quote
Rowells wrote: Think of water. I can't build an igloo with buckets of water, but I can with ice. Water has smaller volume (normally) than its solid form.
Good point. Why compare ore and minerals to things they actually resemble, such as... ore and minerals... when we can instead cite the rather rare property of a liquid that expands as it solidifies.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Feledain
Elmsfeuer
69
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Posted - 2015.12.09 23:15:24 -
[10] - Quote
Quote:This means that I can take 10m3 and either refine it to 4m3 or compress it to 0.1-0.15 m3
First off i don-¦t do industrie. So i have to trust your numbers there.
From what i see there is nothing wrong with Ore to Minerals. 10m-¦ > 4m-¦
The ore compression works like the secure containers, bigger on the inside. You can imagine the compressed ore as specialized containers containing the ore. Similar to the specialized cargo holds, nothing else fits because the space time is bent in there to maximise storage of one special kind of matter.
yes space magic |
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Lugh Crow-Slave
1333
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Posted - 2015.12.09 23:44:09 -
[11] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Rowells wrote: Think of water. I can't build an igloo with buckets of water, but I can with ice. Water has smaller volume (normally) than its solid form.
Good point. Why compare ore and minerals to things they actually resemble, such as... ore and minerals... when we can instead cite the rather rare property of a liquid that expands as it solidifies. There are some gameplay reasons, but pseudo-realistic rationalizations like this are eyerollers. It's just space-magic.
Do you claim to know the physics of these ours and minerals particularly when stored in a compartment that users tech to make the inside bigger than its total volume?
It very well could be that compressing these minerals is either impractical or impassable in their rained forms
Also again it had been tested mineral compression is bad for game balance and that tends to win out over what is realistic
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
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Nafensoriel
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
209
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Posted - 2015.12.10 01:14:37 -
[12] - Quote
Well if we look at this problem entirely from the perspective of the lore the game provides a relatively simple answer comes up.
Minerals are complex. Ore is not.
To explain consider that in EVE it is widely accepted that you can use certain fields to compress cargo. One can assume that the more complex an item is the harder it is to compress. You can see this in living cargo items as an example. So if we hold the above premise true then a refined mineral ready for production would be incapable of heavy compression due to the fact that the mineral is to "complex" ie there is nothing to "squish". Ore on the other hand has waste and other elements. We also can assume that an ore block is inefficiently packed by nature. Plenty of room to "squish" down this matter into a very packaged block.
Or you can just say space magic and be happy. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1243
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Posted - 2015.12.10 19:09:00 -
[13] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Also again it had been tested mineral compression is bad for game balance and that tends to win out over what is realistic
Which is why I said, "There are gameplay reasons," before pointing out that your "Because weird RL edge case!" reasoning was dumb.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2766
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Posted - 2015.12.11 12:46:02 -
[14] - Quote
Inside the Rorqual there is a brown dwarf star. As you add ore to it, its volume does not increase, only its mass increases.
This is how it happens.
Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom
Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm
The Succubus looks meaner
But the Revenant cleaner
Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
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Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
432
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Posted - 2015.12.11 14:48:11 -
[15] - Quote
S'totan wrote:So, I know, I am bashing my head in over something small.... but why cant I fit a single dreadnaught's mineral requirements into a jump freighter once the minerals have been refined from ore, but I can fit 5 dreadnaughts mineral requirements into a jump freighter if i compress the ore? I mean, physically this just sounds weird. I can refine or compress 100 veldspar into 400ish Trit or 1 compressed veldspar(which also refines to 400ish trit) This means that I can take 10m3 and either refine it to 4m3 or compress it to 0.1-0.15 m3(when refined still nets 4 m3) Why can I not compress the minerals if the same minerals are compressed to something smaller(mind you the refining process implies that you are removing impurities or making it smaller) as ore???? I have a picture to somewhat show this. http://i.imgur.com/BzOy0Sv.png
Think about it like this: The unrefined ore, with all its impurities, is still ike a bunch of powder after your mining-lasers have melted the rock and transported it back to your mining barge. The cooled substance then can still be compressed, thanks to being rather porose after being melted and recooled like that.
Now since EVE doesn't deal in mass, but only in volume, we enter a weird world were you need, say 5m-¦ to build something, but not 5t like you would expect. Since materials have different densities, 5m-¦ of Zydrine could be, for all we know, actually translated to being twice as heavy as 5m-¦ of Tritanium, for example.
We know how much space a "unit" of Tritanium or Zydrine takes up, but EVE doesn't tell us how much mass that actually is.
So if you refine 100 Veldspar into 4m-¦ of Tritanium, you don't actually know how much Tritanium you got, just how much space it occupies before being used up by nanomachines to build something.
It stands to reason that Veldspar-ore and pure Tritanium are probably different enough you get this weird case were the ore can be compressed to smaller volumes because of its structure, while the purer ore is lighter but can't
In essence, 4m-¦ of pure Tritanium are a lot lighter then the 10m-¦ ore you refined it out of, but due to it's molecular structure it can't be compressed any further.
The ore however, is different enough to allow more compression, but the mass doesn't change.
10m-¦ of ore is heavier then the 4m-¦ of pure minerals you get, because of all the impurities removed during refining. 10m-¦ and 0,1m-¦ of ore and compressed ore weighs the same, the later is just highly compressed.
See? It works out in the end.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
1333
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Posted - 2015.12.11 18:17:55 -
[16] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Also again it had been tested mineral compression is bad for game balance and that tends to win out over what is realistic
Which is why I said, "There are gameplay reasons," before pointing out that your "Because weird RL edge case!" reasoning was dumb.
What RL edge case?
I have only pointed out the balance issue and made one jab at the physics of eve
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
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