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Nealla Fraer
Gallente Kings Of The SAHARA
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Posted - 2007.01.15 06:54:00 -
[1]
Heya,
After an interesting discussion on another channel in the forum about G ay, L esbian, Bisexual, and Transgender people in-game, it was decided to start a channel for GLBTA people who would like to converse. A few people have joined and so far itĘs been a good time had by all. I'd love to have more people join though. If you'd like to come chat with us message me in-game (Nealla Fraer) and I'll send you an invite. BTW, does anybody know how to make the channel open to anyone who wants? If that is even possible. Thanks.
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darklegionca
Caldari Galactica Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2007.01.15 06:59:00 -
[2]
Not to be rude or anything but i think this will be locked by the mods ------------------------------------ darklegionca - One name. One legend. |

Sev Renard
Gallente Elite Storm Enterprises Storm Armada
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Posted - 2007.01.15 06:59:00 -
[3]
I'd actually be quite interested in joining.
If I recall correctly, when a channel is created, the default is to have open access unless specified otherwise. _________________________________________
I wonder which will come first, my portrait, or a sig hijack... |

Brutor Shaun
Minmatar Freelancers UK Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.15 07:07:00 -
[4]
Originally by: darklegionca Not to be rude or anything but i think this will be locked by the mods
Be interesting to see their reason, without being descriminatory. I remember reading about the GMs trying to block a ghey guild in WoW or some other pixie role play thing. Caused uproar.
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Benglada
Infinitus Odium
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Posted - 2007.01.15 07:11:00 -
[5]
i'm not "ghey" (must suck to be an expletive) But if the mods lock this, that would be horrible. ---------------------------
Originally by: Arkanor
0.0 is the Final Frontier. Bring money and friends.
Sig nerfz0r - maximum allowed siz0r is 24000 bytz0r. - Devil ([email protected]) Sig By Ortos |

Voculus
E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.01.15 07:14:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Benglada i'm not "ghey" (must suck to be an expletive) But if the mods lock this, that would be horrible.
No, horrible would be burning to death in a car wreck. _________________________________________________________
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Conuion Meow
Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department

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Posted - 2007.01.15 07:17:00 -
[7]
Moved for the time being
Forum Rules | E-Mail us! (Report a bad post) | Sexeh CRC Website! aka Onion -Eldo
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Sovy Kurosei
Amarr Thundercats RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.15 07:21:00 -
[8]
Have fun with your channel and it is good to keep it open. Just becareful of the trolls and don't let the get to you. ___________________
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Conuion Meow
Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department

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Posted - 2007.01.15 07:23:00 -
[9]
Friendly reminder: anything that could be construed as trolling in this thread will warrant a warning.
Forum Rules | E-Mail us! (Report a bad post) | Sexeh CRC Website! aka Onion -Eldo
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darklegionca
Caldari Galactica Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2007.01.15 07:44:00 -
[10]
erm i wasnt troling i though stuff like this was not allowed so i just told them it might be locked so ya ------------------------------------ darklegionca - One name. One legend. |

Nicocat
Caldari New Age Solutions
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Posted - 2007.01.15 16:13:00 -
[11]
*snip* - Please don't discuss bans on the forums. -Ivan K
gl with the chan ----------------------------
Originally by: Splagada SEED ME DADDY
WTB: Friggin' portrait |

Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.01.15 18:01:00 -
[12]
That's cool.  * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |

smashsmash
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Posted - 2007.01.15 18:21:00 -
[13]
that's pretty sweet. i'll have to swing buy some time.
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Itaro Flagg
The Priory Shroud Of Darkness
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Posted - 2007.01.15 18:32:00 -
[14]
I'll drop you a line ingame, could be an interesting channel to keep open on otherwise boring nights in space.
And seconded, don't let the trolls get to you. There will certainly be some--always are.
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Mayoz Miner
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Posted - 2007.01.15 18:34:00 -
[15]
intersesting idea are there GLBTA corps only as well ?
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Roue
Privateers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.15 18:52:00 -
[16]
I forsee interest in this channel being a maximum 50% authentic. A large improvement from other ventures such as an all female channel or ex-miss USA/Universe only channels. Which show a large proportion of people strangely not holding any of the recommended attributes for attending. But as long as you welcome people who will obviously be there just to try and listen to something interesting you should find a good amount of success.
I would highly recommend developing a group of moderators early on to help keep it policed so as not to discourage people who come in from being turned off by the inevitable idiots who will congregate. This is my opinion not that of privateer corp, alliance, its member corps, affiliates, minions, pet animals, ex girlfriends, former roommates, 3rd grade gym teachers, late relatives, ontime relatives, |

VD ThatsNotRight
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Posted - 2007.01.15 18:59:00 -
[17]
if i remember correctly forming a GLBT only corp, would count as discrimination,so probably not.good luck to the OP!hope you do well.and are spared the trollers and such!
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Nir
The Doldrums
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Posted - 2007.01.15 19:00:00 -
[18]
I just don't see how sexual pref. or gender has any bearings on an online game..
But hey, don't let me stop you. 
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Steppa
Gallente Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e
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Posted - 2007.01.15 19:11:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Conuion Meow Friendly reminder: anything that could be construed as trolling in this thread will warrant a warning. If you have any questions, feel free to email us at [email protected]
Odd. Preimptive intolerence for future intolerence.
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ToxicFire
Warlords Corp The Core Collective
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Posted - 2007.01.15 19:22:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Steppa
Originally by: Conuion Meow Friendly reminder: anything that could be construed as trolling in this thread will warrant a warning. If you have any questions, feel free to email us at [email protected]
Odd. Preimptive intolerence for future intolerence.
Not really these days CCP is a company even though its not responsible for the content of its boards companies have been sued over discrimination issues before if they haven't actively tried to prevent them.
As for the channel, its an ok idea, but personally race, gender, sexuality, breakfast cereal preference doesn't have any bearing on how I treat people in game. In fact theres probably more bearing on how many x's are in there name before anything else.
Can't help but worry though that grouping people together based on a certain preference in lifestyle makes it easier for them to become a target of discrimination though.
Join the save Stargate SG1 Campaign Today! http://savestargatesg1.com/
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Apocryphai
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.01.15 19:30:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Apocryphai on 15/01/2007 19:26:55
Originally by: ToxicFire Can't help but worry though that grouping people together based on a certain preference in lifestyle makes it easier for them to become a target of discrimination though.
If you notice the thread title it says "G ay, L esbian, Bisexual, Transgender and Straight" (my emphasis). So there's no preference, exclusion or discrimination there, everyone's included.
I see this as a kind of channel where people are free to be open about their sexuality without fear of prejudice, regardless of what that sexuality is, rather than a channel that's grouping people together based upon their particular sexuality.
Originally by: Victor Valka What the skull-chick said.
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Daos Leghki
Paxton Industries
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Posted - 2007.01.15 19:36:00 -
[22]
Not my cup of tea, but if you feel like having something like this, more power to you.
Free Bump :D
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Nicocat
Caldari New Age Solutions
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Posted - 2007.01.15 19:40:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Apocryphai Edited by: Apocryphai on 15/01/2007 19:26:55
Originally by: ToxicFire Can't help but worry though that grouping people together based on a certain preference in lifestyle makes it easier for them to become a target of discrimination though.
If you notice the thread title it says "G ay, L esbian, Bisexual, Transgender and Straight" (my emphasis). So there's no preference, exclusion or discrimination there, everyone's included.
I see this as a kind of channel where people are free to be open about their sexuality without fear of prejudice, regardless of what that sexuality is, rather than a channel that's grouping people together based upon their particular sexuality.
Ahem... straight allies. i.e. sympathetic straight folk that help the cause of alternative sexuality, but still like looking at what they don't have. Not your run of the mill straight blokes. ----------------------------
Originally by: Splagada SEED ME DADDY
WTB: Friggin' portrait |

Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2007.01.15 20:20:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Steppa
Originally by: Conuion Meow Friendly reminder: anything that could be construed as trolling in this thread will warrant a warning. If you have any questions, feel free to email us at [email protected]
Odd. Preimptive intolerence for future intolerence.
It's a topic trolls are attracted to like uninhabited bridges.
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Conrad Bland
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Posted - 2007.01.15 20:40:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Mayoz Miner intersesting idea are there GLBTA corps only as well ?
Well, there's certainly the MGRL 
The channel sounds like it could be a fun idea for those who are interested.
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Backdoor Bandit
Minmatar Gay Rights League
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Posted - 2007.01.15 20:44:00 -
[26]
\o/ -------------
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reched
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.01.15 20:59:00 -
[27]
email sent to [email protected] since my opinion isnt allowed. |

reched
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.01.15 20:59:00 -
[28]
email sent to [email protected] since my opinion isnt allowed. |

Nake
Primary Targets
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Posted - 2007.01.15 21:06:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Nake on 15/01/2007 21:02:28 Interesting venture. Good luck with it.
To the mod: Does this also mean that all I have to do is integrate G ay/L esbian/Bisexual issues into my posts to have guaranteed warnings for all the trolls in my threads?
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Matt Valor
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Posted - 2007.01.15 21:06:00 -
[30]
I HAVE BEEN LOOKING FOR SOMETHING LIKE THIS ALL MY LIFE! 
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Nake
Primary Targets
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Posted - 2007.01.15 21:06:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Nake on 15/01/2007 21:02:28 Interesting venture. Good luck with it.
To the mod: Does this also mean that all I have to do is integrate G ay/L esbian/Bisexual issues into my posts to have guaranteed warnings for all the trolls in my threads?
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Matt Valor
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Posted - 2007.01.15 21:06:00 -
[32]
I HAVE BEEN LOOKING FOR SOMETHING LIKE THIS ALL MY LIFE! 
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Fye
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Posted - 2007.01.15 21:22:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Fye on 15/01/2007 21:20:00 Edited by: Fye on 15/01/2007 21:19:28
Quote: intersesting idea are there GLBTA corps only as well ?
I certainly hope there isn't a GLBT corp out there, not that im again it - I just don't see why people insist on discriminating. I have many friends, some are g ay, some are l esbians, most are straight, but I don't look on them differently for it. They're my friends, why people insist on segregating themselves from another group simply because of sexual preference goes beyond me.
Fye - Fighter |

Itaro Flagg
The Priory Shroud Of Darkness
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Posted - 2007.01.15 21:31:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Itaro Flagg on 15/01/2007 21:29:56
Originally by: Steppa
Originally by: Conuion Meow Friendly reminder: anything that could be construed as trolling in this thread will warrant a warning. If you have any questions, feel free to email us at [email protected]
Odd. Preimptive intolerence for future intolerence.
There is no moral imperative to be tolerant of intolerance.
Quote: I certainly hope there isn't a GLBT corp out there, not that im again it - I just don't see why people insist on discriminating. I have many friends, some are g ay, some are l esbians, most are straight, but I don't look on them differently for it. They're my friends, why people insist on segregating themselves from another group simply because of sexual preference goes beyond me.
People very often choose to congregate with others who share the same hobbies/interests/preferences/etc, in order to socialize with people who they know share some common ground with them. This is not only common, but seen in every aspect of social interaction in the world. I can't see how doing so via corps in EvE should garner any special consideration.
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reched
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.01.15 21:42:00 -
[35]
Personally I play eve because I dont have to deal with this, thats what RL is for. If I made a corp or chat channel and said it was "for WHITE CAUCASIANS and other people too" I'd be called a racist. yet, you can have your "Open" channel. In all reality, its a method to set yourself apart and be different and draw attention to yourself.
- reched |

Lost Ninja
Incessant-Logic's Friendly Society
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Posted - 2007.01.15 21:47:00 -
[36]
Cool a GLEE Club. 
I'll wander by no doubt. 
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Marcus TheMartin
Gallente Tuxedo.
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Posted - 2007.01.15 21:55:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Backdoor Bandit \o/
 Best Dressed Corp of 2006 and 2007! -Marcus TheMartin Marcus Thinks Eve who knew!? |

Lowanaera
Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria
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Posted - 2007.01.15 21:55:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Lowanaera on 15/01/2007 21:53:15
Originally by: Fye They're my friends, why people insist on segregating themselves from another group simply because of sexual preference goes beyond me.
I have to agree... and I certainly hope this isn't construed as trolling by the mods considering mature and honest discourse on the subject can only do good.
As a bisexual in real life, I don't understand the desire for something like LGBT guilds in MMOGs. A channel like in the OP for LGBTers and LGBT-friendly straights might be okay, it's a place to discuss common interests without dealing with discrimination. But a guild of only LGBTers or at least aimed specifically at LGBTers just seems exclusionary, no better than a guild in which no LGBTers are allowed. I am bisexual, it's a part of who I am, but it's not all of who I am. I want to be treated as a normal human being, not as a big "bi" label for harm OR benefit. I want my sexuality to be a non-issue that people accept without even thinking about, not something to be worn as a badge of pride worn to shove into people's faces so I can yell "accept me!" at them. "*** pride" is an alien concept to me, my opinion is that we should be blending ourselves into the fabric of society by encouraging others to view us for who we are in our entirety, of which our sexuality is only one part, instead of badgering them with such a one-dimensional view of ourselves. Not ashamed, certainly not pretending to be straight to fit in, but just being ourselves and forgoing the "Hi, I'm ***" forehead tattoo.
It's like ***-oriented media, some days watching LOGO it's like "At 2, 4, 6, and 8pm, it's AIDS, and at 1, 3, 5, 7PM, Hate Crimes". Yeah, AIDS is a big issue, and yeah, there's a whole lot of discrimination out there still, but this kind of mindset gets really repetitive and frankly depressing, and doesn't reflect the reality of the very large numbers of us just living out normal lives here. At times it seems like it's doing almost as much harm to our acceptance as an everyday part of society as the one-dimensional flaming queen bit-parts that seem to be the only *** characters to make it into mainstream programming.
Whether they're pushing us out or we're choosing to stand out, either way, we're left on the outside.
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Exiled One
Amarr Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2007.01.15 22:13:00 -
[39]
*snip* Be nice. -Conuion Meow ([email protected]) It's great being Amarr, aint it? |

Phantomas
Gallente INTAKI UNION
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Posted - 2007.01.15 22:21:00 -
[40]
This is a great Idea. I will eve-mail you in game to get an invite. Good to see family come together now and again!
[2006.04.30 19:30:23] Vremaja Idama > For it is by men of action as yourself that we as Intaki will find our way into the future. |

Janice Warner
Gallente Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2007.01.15 22:21:00 -
[41]
It's what is known as a 'safe space', somewhere where people who are GLBT can go without getting slagged off by your average 14 year old griefer. I mean it's pretty common for people to use words like**** as an insult or call something *** in MMO's in general. That sort of thing gets pretty wearing on a daily basis so having this is cool for the GLBT posse.
In short \o/ :).
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Marcus TheMartin
Gallente Tuxedo.
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Posted - 2007.01.15 22:23:00 -
[42]
I guess every one hates furries (not a furry by the way lol) Best Dressed Corp of 2006 and 2007! -Marcus TheMartin Marcus Thinks Eve who knew!? |

Nicocat
Caldari New Age Solutions
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Posted - 2007.01.15 22:23:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Marcus TheMartin I guess every one hates furries (not a furry by the way lol)
Colon-mother*******-left-parenthesis :( ----------------------------
Originally by: Splagada SEED ME DADDY
WTB: Friggin' portrait |

GankYou
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Posted - 2007.01.15 22:24:00 -
[44]
Mods, the Community demands that you follow your own rules. Close this thread or at least edit the thread title, unless you want people to start bypassing the f ucking word filter. Thank you.
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Marcus TheMartin
Gallente Tuxedo.
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Posted - 2007.01.15 22:37:00 -
[45]
Secret mod word filter conspiracy going on here  Best Dressed Corp of 2006 and 2007! -Marcus TheMartin Marcus Thinks Eve who knew!? |

Bawldeux IV
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.01.15 22:47:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Fye Edited by: Fye on 15/01/2007 21:20:00 Edited by: Fye on 15/01/2007 21:19:28
Quote: intersesting idea are there GLBTA corps only as well ?
I certainly hope there isn't a GLBT corp out there, not that im again it - I just don't see why people insist on discriminating. I have many friends, some are g ay, some are l esbians, most are straight, but I don't look on them differently for it. They're my friends, why people insist on segregating themselves from another group simply because of sexual preference goes beyond me.
I couldn't agree more.
If you want to be seen as equals, and want to be treated as everyone else is, then don't segregate yourself. (a *** female friend of mine seen this at work, she laughed and asked "why do they need a special channel, are they wanting to group 'cyber'?)
And no, that is not a troll, it is an honest question, and an honest opinion (even if it was a funny comment from her)
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Nicocat
Caldari New Age Solutions
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Posted - 2007.01.15 22:48:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Secret mod word filter conspiracy going on here 
To the TinfoilHatMobile!
(Which, by the way, looks fabulous on the heads of conspiracy theorists and minmatar pilots alike of any sexuality =P) ----------------------------
Originally by: Splagada SEED ME DADDY
WTB: Friggin' portrait |

Marcus TheMartin
Gallente Tuxedo.
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Posted - 2007.01.15 22:56:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Bawldeux IV
Originally by: Fye Edited by: Fye on 15/01/2007 21:20:00 Edited by: Fye on 15/01/2007 21:19:28
Quote: intersesting idea are there GLBTA corps only as well ?
I certainly hope there isn't a GLBT corp out there, not that im again it - I just don't see why people insist on discriminating. I have many friends, some are g ay, some are l esbians, most are straight, but I don't look on them differently for it. They're my friends, why people insist on segregating themselves from another group simply because of sexual preference goes beyond me.
I couldn't agree more.
If you want to be seen as equals, and want to be treated as everyone else is, then don't segregate yourself. (a *** female friend of mine seen this at work, she laughed and asked "why do they need a special channel, are they wanting to group 'cyber'?)
And no, that is not a troll, it is an honest question, and an honest opinion (even if it was a funny comment from her)
Its for cyborz obviously and bound to get raided by 4chan trial accounts lol Best Dressed Corp of 2006 and 2007! -Marcus TheMartin Marcus Thinks Eve who knew!? |

Kehmor
Caldari PAK
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Posted - 2007.01.15 22:57:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Apocryphai Edited by: Apocryphai on 15/01/2007 19:26:55
Originally by: ToxicFire Can't help but worry though that grouping people together based on a certain preference in lifestyle makes it easier for them to become a target of discrimination though.
If you notice the thread title it says "G ay, L esbian, Bisexual, Transgender and Straight" (my emphasis). So there's no preference, exclusion or discrimination there, everyone's included.
I see this as a kind of channel where people are free to be open about their sexuality without fear of prejudice, regardless of what that sexuality is, rather than a channel that's grouping people together based upon their particular sexuality.
If you have a problem with bestiality just come out and say it!
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Marcus TheMartin
Gallente Tuxedo.
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Posted - 2007.01.15 22:58:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Kehmor
Originally by: Apocryphai Edited by: Apocryphai on 15/01/2007 19:26:55
Originally by: ToxicFire Can't help but worry though that grouping people together based on a certain preference in lifestyle makes it easier for them to become a target of discrimination though.
If you notice the thread title it says "G ay, L esbian, Bisexual, Transgender and Straight" (my emphasis). So there's no preference, exclusion or discrimination there, everyone's included.
I see this as a kind of channel where people are free to be open about their sexuality without fear of prejudice, regardless of what that sexuality is, rather than a channel that's grouping people together based upon their particular sexuality.
If you have a problem with bestiality just come out and say it!
Or A-Sexual Jovians lets not discriminate now  Best Dressed Corp of 2006 and 2007! -Marcus TheMartin Marcus Thinks Eve who knew!? |

GankYou
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Posted - 2007.01.15 23:07:00 -
[51]
Bunch of*****sucking inbreds. 
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Nicocat
Caldari New Age Solutions
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Posted - 2007.01.15 23:09:00 -
[52]
That's it, I'm starting a Furry channel. I'll be completely alone in it, but damnit, it's being made!
Mostly to see what kinda channel trolls will bite the bait ;) ----------------------------
Originally by: Splagada SEED ME DADDY
WTB: Friggin' portrait |

Sovy Kurosei
Amarr Thundercats RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.15 23:13:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Nicocat That's it, I'm starting a Furry channel. I'll be completely alone in it, but damnit, it's being made!
Mostly to see what kinda channel trolls will bite the bait ;)
Hold on there. I'll contact you in-game. ___________________
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Marcus TheMartin
Gallente Tuxedo.
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Posted - 2007.01.15 23:19:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Sovy Kurosei
Originally by: Nicocat That's it, I'm starting a Furry channel. I'll be completely alone in it, but damnit, it's being made!
Mostly to see what kinda channel trolls will bite the bait ;)
Hold on there. I'll contact you in-game.
Ah ha I knew it! Best Dressed Corp of 2006 and 2007! -Marcus TheMartin Marcus Thinks Eve who knew!? |

Sovy Kurosei
Amarr Thundercats RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.15 23:20:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Ah ha I knew it!
Knew what?  ___________________
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Marcus TheMartin
Gallente Tuxedo.
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Posted - 2007.01.15 23:21:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Sovy Kurosei
Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Ah ha I knew it!
Knew what? 
it was a furry joke Best Dressed Corp of 2006 and 2007! -Marcus TheMartin Marcus Thinks Eve who knew!? |

Cipher7
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Posted - 2007.01.15 23:36:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Cipher7 on 15/01/2007 23:35:21 Edited by: Cipher7 on 15/01/2007 23:34:24 Can we please let a fantasy universe remain a fantasy universe and not drag real life into it?
I don't need to know if anyone is g.ay. Or republican. Or methodist.
My tolerance for religion stops when you knock on my door and ask me if I want to know Jesus.
Everything I want to know about homosexuality is contained on the Miami L.esbians collection I own on DVD.
G.ay activists need to stop badgering the public, you are becoming like Jehovah's Witnesses.
And FFS CCP, why is the word "L.esbian" being bleeped out but "fag" is ok?
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GankYou
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Posted - 2007.01.15 23:38:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Cipher7
Can we please let a fantasy universe remain a fantasy universe and not drag real life into it?
I don't need to know if anyone is g.ay. Or republican. Or methodist.
My tolerance for religion stops when you knock on my door and ask me if I want to know Jesus.
Everything I want to know about homosexuality is contained on the Miami *******s collect I own on DVD.
G.ay activists need to stop badgering the public, you are becoming like Jehovah's Witnesses.
This man is correct. Mods move this thread to out of game because I do not want to read "G AY, L ESBIANS, BISEXUAL HOMIES REJOICE" everytime I open EVE General Discussion. Thank you.
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Marcus TheMartin
Gallente Tuxedo.
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Posted - 2007.01.15 23:41:00 -
[59]
Originally by: GankYou
Originally by: Cipher7
Can we please let a fantasy universe remain a fantasy universe and not drag real life into it?
I don't need to know if anyone is g.ay. Or republican. Or methodist.
My tolerance for religion stops when you knock on my door and ask me if I want to know Jesus.
Everything I want to know about homosexuality is contained on the Miami *******s collect I own on DVD.
G.ay activists need to stop badgering the public, you are becoming like Jehovah's Witnesses.
This man is correct. Mods move this thread to out of game because I do not want to read "G AY, L ESBIANS, BISEXUAL HOMIES REJOICE" everytime I open EVE General Discussion. Thank you.
your post is going to get deleted again because mods hate you lol Best Dressed Corp of 2006 and 2007! -Marcus TheMartin Marcus Thinks Eve who knew!? |
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