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Rei PingYu Coffee Thanes Navy Protectorates 0	Posted - 2015.12.16 02:59:45 - [1] - Quote my frustration with eve has been with the mechanics, not the gameplay. But, i didnt understand what was going on, because my eyes were deceieving me. when i logged onto eve, i was piloting a frig around something, and blapping it sideways. i thought it looked odd, but the game didnt have rotating turrets, at least for that craft, so it just did that. i was under the impression i had a 3 dimensional ship that has an positive and negative x,y, and z face. turrets would be mounted on those faces, and shoot according to the graphics. what i didnt realize,. is looking at my ship is more like looking at the drive wheel of a car, while it in the air, and you provide varying resistance to it. what the wheel is doing has relation to the engine, but it is not an accurate representation of the current state of your "ship". Mathematically, my ship was a 1 dimensional point in space, who doesnt have a face but instead has a direction, determined by its last location. i wont realize this for a very long time, even though i constantly see examples of it. these examples both humor and enrage me, and i feel are ultimately why people quit eve. so, leap forward 2 months in my battleship, i have some funny memories. I have seen my ship warp sideways, reliably. i have seen my turrets face fwd but fire backward, reliably. but im mad as hell because i cant dps a thing for the life of me. but, my friends can i make my turrets face one direction, then pick a target on the other side, fire, and hit it, with my turrets physically being the opposite side? why can i never hit anything when i am broadside, orbiting unless im way far out, and even then im way better head on then broadside? this is making no sense, im getting so angry at everything, i take to the forums. i tried to articulate myself, but i dont even understand eve yet... some dude is "harassing " me. this is part of eve, i can just activate a new char, and be done with it. pause skill training on him, activate it on an alt fresh or old, and hes gone.... you cant get attached to anything, ships or characters alike. this is STRICTLY in conflict with literally every other game out there, where you are encouraged to be invested in things. it wasnt until i actually read all the tos word for word with a pen and piece of paper, that i realized what eve is, and what type of game i was playing... my lack of knowledge on these topics led my posts to be locked for trolling, when it was a lack of understanding as to the world of eve. now i understand... i understand why my posts were locked for trolling, people got mad, eve should never change save some few role playing conflicts to improve the experience, but most importantly... The reason i can not dps is because i am using hitscan weapons without knowledge, but assumptions. Some players dont have this problem, and those players are using sprite weapons. I am in an abaddon. 8 turrets, dps increase, resis increase. i am sitting there, getting pounded by enemy frigates, and eventually cruisers. this is the worst thing to do, i am now relying on 4 lvl 2 drones to kill things, and it takes for ever. im watching tv, "playing" eve. its not very fun. but i already cancelled my sub, so im getting my $ worth and playing until i get so mad i just delete it, or until my sub expires, and i delete it. but i made a group of friends, who we now play other games together. so, when we play eve, i want to contribute. i start to research my dps, and which turrets i should be using. this, is a grave mistake. turret tracking speed is virtually useless. any bonuses are bonuses, but you gain far more by adding ship agi, then turret tracking speed. at least on hitscan weapons. this is because sprite weapons will never miss, always hit, given the time. i wont go into the complexity of two one dimensional points engaging each other in space, i made that rant to a friend. but while i was researching dps types and equations, broke out my calculator, starting crunching math the good old fashioned pen and paper way, i wanted to find out what approach did. also, what orbit did, because sometimes my orbit was elliptical, other times it was spherical. i came across orbiting vs keep at range, on a frig dcussion forum. someone made the comment that "all of this is wrong. the ships in eve do not exist, but are instead points with angular velocity". i immediately recognized the term, and everything made sense all at once. the sideways warping ship, the wonky turrets accuracy and firing, and why when i would align to an object, it didnt matter if my nose dipped or not, i would be aligned or not regardless of the orientation of then nose of my ship. even elliptical orbits... i quickly looked up turrets, they do have a "range". ok, then what direction are the facing? its all 1 dimensional points. they have the same angular velocity as my ship, not the last direction they fired. if i am going to hit my opponent with hitscan weapons, they need to be directly in front of me. i wouldnt do that because i thought my turrets would block los on each other. neither ship is turning, we are making a circle with many points. opposite of flatland, where the higher in status you were, the more points you had on your "circle", in eve, the less points you can make a circle in, the better you are at avoiding being hit, and being able to hit your target. the "tracking speed" of the turrets isnt a speed at all, but a conal increase on the degrees to which i may hit my target, other then 0. and since neither ship is moving in a circle, but we are all making flatland sims, its far better to dcrecrease the amount of points you can make a sim circle in, then to increase the angles of the turrets. especially because turrets have a cap, and suffer from diminishing returns.
Rei PingYu Coffee Thanes Navy Protectorates 0	Posted - 2015.12.16 02:59:56 - [2] - Quote now, i refit my ship. i swap out my turrets, half max tracker, half min tracker. i refit for agility instead of dps, and take to lvl 3's. not only do i go toe to toe with the battlecruisers, being able to make sure we hit each other (as their weapons cones are larger then mine and they only get more of an advantage as i tackle smaller weapons mod using targets, so i must keep them in my cone), i go toe take on a cruiser, and dps him, and finally the frigates. the have been raining hell on my drones this whole time, picking them off. with 4 frigates left, and having done this mission orders of magnitude faster (im now playing at about 15-20 apm... eve does not play that fast). also, the turrets perform the same. whenone grazes, the other almost always grazes with it. when one misses, they both miss, with exception to the rule within tolerance levels. because they dont web or scram me, i control the distance, and it turns out i cant hit them under 10 km. i had recalled my dones to save their lives, and he didnt make it to 15 km away, while i was blaring my mwd.... i cleared that lvl 3 mission, with a much lower dps ship, so so much faster, because now i know. and, now i enjoy the game, because now i know about eve. maybe its my fault for not understanding, but i like to think i understand thing quickly. in any case, i know i am not the last one to figure things out most f the time, but that is not saying never.
Otso Bakarti Filial Pariahs 532	Posted - 2015.12.16 03:09:46 - [3] - Quote not even close There just isn't anything that can be said!
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out 9140	Posted - 2015.12.16 03:43:41 - [4] - Quote tldr; math wizard who has played too much Starcraft and takes graphics far too seriously discovers turret mechanics, realizes that "bigger is not better," and that the server sees your ship as nothing more than a faceless sphere full of stats. APM? Really? No one uses that metric here. In fact... the more you can accomplish with fewer actions per minute, the better. How did you Veterans start? The Skillpoint System and You
Nafensoriel KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 219	Posted - 2015.12.16 05:02:20 - [5] - Quote Some of your assumptions are incorrect. You assume because your ship has structure that the game design has to reflect this.. This is never the case in any game ever made. All games are relative balances of performance and structure. In eve the ship does not need structure so it exists as a point. If it existed as anything more complex you would have a whole host of extra calculations that simply would do visually what you see now for exactly zero gameplay or gfx advantages. Additionally when considering things like turret sig radiuses and the difference between these to large and small guns.. well this has a reflective role on reality that has been translated logically to a game state. To explain.. A large 16/50 gun on a battleship is designed to hit other large objects. CAN it hit small objects? Yes.. but its designed for target is large and thus it can track them quickly in any situation often regardless of how the ship itself is maneuvering(wet navy anyway). In many cases the ship itself is used to help turn these guns faster to target to gain a combat edge over the target ship. Now look at the flipside.. a CIWS. These weapons are designed for knife fights against small things with large potential to harm to ship. They track incredibly fast and accurately. The roll of the ship literally has zero functional effect on them once they lock you up. Shockingly enough though they sometimes have this funky glitch when targeting big things... because their designed focus is so small if you told one to target a battleship 1.5km away it might misfire due to problems recognizing the target profile. This is pretty much reflected in eve.. big guns cant roll fast enough.. and even if they can their designed engagement parameters dont match a small hull and thus have unexpected performance problems. If they DO hit however.. well.. a 20 foot yacht hit by a 16/50 is only so much deconstructed matter.. TLDR: Your math sucks. We've done this math before. Sig rads make sense. Your ship being a point instead of a volume filled model is just common sense game design. Realism is bad in games.
Hasikan Miallok Republic University Minmatar Republic 1756	Posted - 2015.12.16 06:07:17 - [6] - Quote Actually ships in EVE sort of exist as a point sometimes and a sphere at other times. When stationary there is no facing at all. Which matters little because physics in EVE is based on a cross between the Beatles Yellow Submarine and Rubber Ducks bouncing off each other in a bathtub. The only thing those two have in common is they are both yellow. Make of that what you will.
Unsuccessful At Everything the troll bridge 23341	Posted - 2015.12.16 06:46:39 - [7] - Quote Ive seen longer. *Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?*
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out 9141	Posted - 2015.12.16 06:52:16 - [8] - Quote Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: Ive seen longer. throws UAE out UAE has to sleep on the lumpy couch How did you Veterans start? The Skillpoint System and You
Unsuccessful At Everything the troll bridge 23343	Posted - 2015.12.16 06:59:19 - [9] - Quote ShahFluffers wrote: Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: Ive seen longer. throws UAE out UAE has to sleep on the lumpy couch No no no, that's not what I meant! Your posts are long too! I wasn't trying to say that yours aren't the biggest, I mean, theyre just right for the threads! Come on baby, don't be like that... you know I love your posts! *Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?*
TigerXtrm KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1319	Posted - 2015.12.16 09:16:19 - [10] - Quote Well this was disappointing. My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things! My Website - Blogs, Livestreams & Forums
Paranoid Loyd 7728	Posted - 2015.12.16 14:41:04 - [11] - Quote Oh I get it, you are going for a last minute effort to dethrone CAM as the queen shiptoasting. This is not how you get it done. "Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata Fix the Prospect!
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 27756	Posted - 2015.12.16 14:50:18 - [12] - Quote Reporting for the name. I identify as Sol-kin and I oppose all WiSgender because the white priviledged spacists just want to oppress me with their Avatariarchy. Once the carebears are eradicated, I will stand before them, screaming... THE GAME ! (: You lost... :)
Ginnie School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 46	Posted - 2015.12.16 15:25:28 - [13] - Quote I propose that CCP institute a new rule that requires all complaints, grievance, or other such posts to be written strictly in one haiku... All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream. -Edgar Allan Poe
Nafensoriel KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 219	Posted - 2015.12.16 16:09:12 - [14] - Quote Hasikan Miallok wrote: Actually ships in EVE sort of exist as a point sometimes and a sphere at other times. When stationary there is no facing at all. Which matters little because physics in EVE is based on a cross between the Beatles Yellow Submarine and Rubber Ducks bouncing off each other in a bathtub. The only thing those two have in common is they are both yellow. Make of that what you will. Movement= Point Hit detection= Point+sphere calc for distance check. Just a guess of course since I haven't personally looked at CCP code. However it would explain some issues with collisions and missiles. Of course this issue could be related to how the server handles ticks and objects in space but hell its all conjecture anyway. We EVE types are just suckers for problems heh :) Haikus are boring.. Make people write sh*t in old ballad format... and sing it.
Ginnie School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 46	Posted - 2015.12.16 16:34:39 - [15] - Quote Nafensoriel wrote: Haikus are boring.. Make people write sh*t in old ballad format... and sing it. They may be boring, but they are short! Also, for the singing part, do we then require people to post links to YouTube videos of them singing out their grievances? If so, then I fully support either proposal. What do you think CCP? All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream. -Edgar Allan Poe
Esrevid Nekkeg Justified and Ancient 1102	Posted - 2015.12.16 16:49:52 - [16] - Quote Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: Ive seen longer. 6000 characters is the limit, his is 5833, so it is possible. Dev's have a limit of 12k though.. Here I used to have a sig of our old Camper in space. Now it is disregarded as being the wrong format. Looking out the window I see one thing: Nothing wrong with the format of our Camper! Silly CCP......
Jenn aSide Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore 13160	Posted - 2015.12.16 17:23:22 - [17] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: Reporting for the name. Took me a while, but I finally figured it out lol.
SurrenderMonkey Space Llama Industries 1318	Posted - 2015.12.16 17:40:41 - [18] - Quote Rei PingYu wrote: ...and i feel are ultimately why people quit eve. Stopped reading there. Everyone knows that the reason people ultimately quit Eve is because of AFK cloakers. Or was it high-sec catalyst gankers? Gate camps? Perhaps it was jump fatigue... Or T20. Grrr, T2 BPOS! Could be the lack of real piracy. ...Or because the bounty system is bad. Or because wardecs are unfair to smaller corps! Or because wardecs are too easy for small corps to dodge! Or because OGB. Or because OGB is being removed. Or maybe just because of Falcon. Or was it bubble immunity? What about odyssey scanning? Seriously, it is so hard to keep track of which personal pet peeve is LITERALLY KILLING EVE on a day to day basis. "Help, I'm bored with missions!" http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Solecist Project The Scope Gallente Federation 27766	Posted - 2015.12.16 18:52:51 - [19] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Solecist Project wrote: Reporting for the name. Took me a while, but I finally figured it out lol. Still open. Needs more reports. I identify as Sol-kin and I oppose all WiSgender because the white priviledged spacists just want to oppress me with their Avatariarchy. Once the carebears are eradicated, I will stand before them, screaming... THE GAME ! (: You lost... :)
Jenn aSide Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore 13162	Posted - 2015.12.16 19:53:14 - [20] - Quote SurrenderMonkey wrote: Rei PingYu wrote: ...and i feel are ultimately why people quit eve. Stopped reading there. Everyone knows that the reason people ultimately quit Eve is because of AFK cloakers. Or was it high-sec catalyst gankers? Gate camps? Perhaps it was jump fatigue... Or T20. Grrr, T2 BPOS! Could be the lack of real piracy. ...Or because the bounty system is bad. Or because wardecs are unfair to smaller corps! Or because wardecs are too easy for small corps to dodge! Or because OGB. Or because OGB is being removed. Or maybe just because of Falcon. Or was it bubble immunity? What about odyssey scanning? Seriously, it is so hard to keep track of which personal pet peeve is LITERALLY KILLING EVE on a day to day basis. Isn't it always amazing how accurate people can be? i mean, it's exactly their own persona pet peeve that is killing the game every time, it's like they never miss . I just think it's an incomplete thought on their part. They say "X {thing I don't like} is killing the game" when they mean "X {thing I don't like} is killing the game...but only for me personally" lol.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 13104	Posted - 2015.12.16 20:07:14 - [21] - Quote punishers snaggle tooth is killing the game ccp plz fx it neaaaaow! Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=
Malbona Pomon Petulant Luddite GmbH 12	Posted - 2015.12.16 20:21:40 - [22] - Quote Came in with high hopes, after reading a bit took high hopes out back and "disposed" of them quietly.
Thierry Orlenard Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 98	Posted - 2015.12.16 20:47:25 - [23] - Quote To be frank, Mr. OP with the sicko name, I really doubt that many (if any) new players quit the game over the precise reason that you have. At any rate, I'm glad that you finally had your "eureka" moment which led to you ceasing to overthink things so much.
Unsuccessful At Everything the troll bridge 23357	Posted - 2015.12.16 20:53:01 - [24] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: punishers snaggle tooth is killing the game ccp plz fx it neaaaaow! I name them all Lisa because they need braces. *Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?*
Ginnie School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 47	Posted - 2015.12.16 22:37:38 - [25] - Quote Thierry Orlenard wrote: To be frank, Mr. OP with the sicko name, I really doubt that many (if any) new players quit the game over the precise reason that you have. At any rate, I'm glad that you finally had your "eureka" moment which led to you ceasing to overthink things so much. Personally, I quit EVE several times between 2007 and 2009 because I just couldn't figure it out. Lack of direction those types of things. Once I realized that I have to make this game what I want it to be, I started to enjoy it a lot more. However, if most new players are used to WOW, SWTOR, or what have you, then there is a lack of overall direction (especially in comparison) and they could become disenfranchised and quit. All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream. -Edgar Allan Poe
Hasikan Miallok Republic University Minmatar Republic 1760	Posted - 2015.12.16 22:48:19 - [26] - Quote Never had an issue with direction in EVE my ship always stays the right way up all by itself. I have tried flying upside down to confuse would be gankers but it does not seem possible.
lmmortalist lmmortality Associates 140	Posted - 2015.12.16 23:00:47 - [27] - Quote http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/852/331/c86.jpg I'll have whatever the op is having!
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7219	Posted - 2015.12.17 00:15:14 - [28] - Quote Wouldn't it be cool if we had the option to draw "vectors" from our turrets to see where they are pointing at a distance view, like on the tactical overlay, with their own range bars. We could see them "chasing" targets even. Just an idea. Don't anybody get their panties bunched up or anything. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Unsuccessful At Everything the troll bridge 23371	Posted - 2015.12.17 00:52:07 - [29] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Wouldn't it be cool if we had the option to draw "vectors" from our turrets to see where they are pointing at a distance view, like on the tactical overlay, with their own range bars. We could see them "chasing" targets even. Just an idea. Don't anybody get their panties bunched up or anything. This is GD, and as of late, we are all about the bunched panties. *Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?*
Nafensoriel KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 220	Posted - 2015.12.17 01:26:46 - [30] - Quote Due to eve only having "G.uy I.n R.eal L.ife"s instead of actual females.. wouldn't it be smelly boxers?
Trevor Dalech We pooped on your lawn Resonance. 197	Posted - 2015.12.17 02:17:39 - [31] - Quote Including the word "math" in the title of your post is incredible click bait for me... However, aside from mentioning a x, y and z, I am still looking for the promised math. I'm also looking for capital letters, mostly at the start of sentences. So far I found two!
Paul Pohl blue media poetry 62	Posted - 2015.12.17 02:32:30 - [32] - Quote [quote=Trevor DalechI'm also looking for capital letters, mostly at the start of sentences. So far I found two![/quote] you should look up the etymology of the word 'sentence' and while you are about it, you might perhaps look up the history of grammar in english - or no doubt you would prefer English - as I suspect you are a speaker of the High German dialect known as American-English But regardless, the etymology will reveal why the OP is not communicating in authoritative statements
Legion Masser Rage-Machine 49	Posted - 2015.12.17 02:36:20 - [33] - Quote Eve , Be the Villian? the game where you can play as a horrific villian , hellbent on trolling, harassing and ruining others enjoyment of the game, yet filled with taddling adults so eager to tell the teacher Eve - Be the Children GÿóGÿóGÿóGÿóGÿóGÿóGÿó- Your Anger is a Gift -GÿóGÿóGÿóGÿóGÿóGÿóGÿó Do you even Titan? GÿóGÿóGÿó Potato GÿóGÿóGÿóLemonGÿóGÿóGÿó
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7223	Posted - 2015.12.17 07:40:01 - [34] - Quote Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Wouldn't it be cool if we had the option to draw "vectors" from our turrets to see where they are pointing at a distance view, like on the tactical overlay, with their own range bars. We could see them "chasing" targets even. Just an idea. Don't anybody get their panties bunched up or anything. This is GD, and as of late, we are all about the bunched panties. Well then bunched panties it is. I'll take what I can get. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Demerius Xenocratus Rapid Withdrawal 778	Posted - 2015.12.17 07:57:28 - [35] - Quote Increasing risk aversion across the board leading to a universal decrease in content is killing the game, albeit slowly.
Kaska Iskalar Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 39	Posted - 2015.12.17 10:24:53 - [36] - Quote What is this I don't even.
Barrogh Habalu Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire 1090	Posted - 2015.12.17 12:05:31 - [37] - Quote Rei PingYu wrote: i quickly looked up turrets, they do have a "range". ok, then what direction are the facing? its all 1 dimensional points. they have the same angular velocity as my ship, not the last direction they fired. if i am going to hit my opponent with hitscan weapons, they need to be directly in front of me. i wouldnt do that because i thought my turrets would block los on each other. neither ship is turning, we are making a circle with many points. opposite of flatland, where the higher in status you were, the more points you had on your "circle", in eve, the less points you can make a circle in, the better you are at avoiding being hit, and being able to hit your target. the "tracking speed" of the turrets isnt a speed at all, but a conal increase on the degrees to which i may hit my target, other then 0. and since neither ship is moving in a circle, but we are all making flatland sims, its far better to dcrecrease the amount of points you can make a sim circle in, then to increase the angles of the turrets. especially because turrets have a cap, and suffer from diminishing returns. That part is incorrect, like, completely. Turrets don't exist separately in EVE space, it's just cosmetic feature (also it provides some info to onlookers, but that's besides the point). There's only your ship. Yes, it's a sphere. Yes, it doesn't have facing, only speed vector. Angular velocity is not "turning rate" of whatever, and you ship only has angular velocity relatively to another object. Guns are not hitscan, it's merely complicated dice roll based on such parameters as target's sig radius, your guns' sig resolution, angular velocity of both attacker and target, tracking speed of your guns. What do you mean by "turrets suffer from diminishing returns"? P.S. Did you think we were joking saying that EVE is not spaceship simulator but spreadsheets online? Because we mean it. Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become

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