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Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
973
   |
Posted - 2016.01.12 02:55:44 -
[61] - Quote
Kador Ouryon wrote:Elmund Egivand wrote:You people keep arguing about the productivity of slaves while neglecting what makes a slave different from a freeman even if they enjoy the same incentives and experiences.
The main difference between a slave and a freeman is their status as property. You can employ a freeman, but you do not own a freeman. You do not employ a slave, you own the slave.
The rest of the gritty details stem from this one major difference. For example, when a freeman worker is mistreated, he can, under his own jurisdiction, bring that complaint up to the authorities. If a slave is mistreated, he is unable to complain to the authorities under his own jurisdiction. It will fall entirely on the other, free, party to complain on his behalf and get the matter dealt with. After all, one is a person and is afforded the rights of a person, whereas the other is property and does not possess that right. I'm not sure that her point was to discuss the mistreatment or mismanagement of slaves or works as either would be a failure of management be they Holder or Employer. It was I think more a response to the assertions that slaves have a poor work ethic or do not make for quality labourers. In my experience, though it is by no means indicative of the universal slave population, that could not be further from the truth and that for the most such a working ethic is often unimpeachable.
I figured that using productivity of individual slaves for the argument for or against slavery is an erroneous move. Slaves are still people, even if they are treated as property. Slaves, if given the incentive, can be very productive, perhaps even more so, than a freeman worker. A freeman worker can be incredibly non-productive as well if they aren't given the incentives.
Instead, the argument for and against slavery is probably better approached from the economic angle. It will also better explain the difference in the socio-economic structure between the Amarr Empire and the other Empires.
Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~ EVERGREEN ~ Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~Evergreen ~ Family
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2657
|
Posted - 2016.01.12 04:46:00 -
[62] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote:The rest of the gritty details stem from this one major difference. For example, when a freeman worker is mistreated, he can, under his own jurisdiction, bring that complaint up to the authorities. If a slave is mistreated, he is unable to complain to the authorities under his own jurisdiction. It will fall entirely on the other, free, party to complain on his behalf and get the matter dealt with. After all, one is a person and is afforded the rights of a person, whereas the other is property and does not possess that right.
Again, more assumptions.
If a slave is mistreated, you can certainly complain to the authorities. If you have been a useful and productive servant, then those authorities may actually listen and help you. What the difference actually is, Egivand, is that everything a slave receives must be fought for and earned, instead of given freely.
Arrendis wrote:But why should anyone have to, Samira?
The why doesn't matter for this discussion. I've already argued that on this forum and to you a hundred times. What matters for this discussion is that it is a fact of life for trillions of people, and that those people make do with their circumstances just as anyone anywhere must. |
Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
974
|
Posted - 2016.01.12 08:12:28 -
[63] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:What the difference actually is, Egivand, is that everything a slave receives must be fought for and earned, instead of given freely.
And this differs from other workers how? Even in the Federation, the guy who does not work may only get the barest minimum for survival, or perhaps even less, and nothing else. Not even a roof on his head unless someone else is feeling charitable at the moment.
In the Republic and any Tribal enclave in general, the guy who does not pull his weight is, while a subject to some amount of charity, generally shunned.
I don't believe freeloaders even exist in the Caldari State.
Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~ EVERGREEN ~ Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~Evergreen ~ Family
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Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1523
|
Posted - 2016.01.12 09:26:48 -
[64] - Quote
Freeloaders exist everywhere. Amarr Empire and Caldari State included. |
Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
520
|
Posted - 2016.01.12 10:51:53 -
[65] - Quote
Except somehow the freeloaders in the Empire tend to somehow float to the top rather than the bottom of the barrel.
Elmund, this wasn't about pro or anti-slavery. This was on a different subject, which was the unfortunate tendencies of freeborn to blither on about slaves without having any understanding of them or their lives. I doubt anyone can claim I am pro-slavery, but I see no point in allowing blatant falsehoods about slaves and slavery either. The reality of it should be - and is - more than sufficient. |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
2315
|
Posted - 2016.01.12 12:37:23 -
[66] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Deitra Vess wrote:Isn't slavery illegal in the state, never mind selling them as a Caldari Officer?  Not only is Slavery illegal in the State, there has never been a time in the history of the Caldari people when it has been legal for one Caldari to own another person outright.
Thank you, Mr. Tuulinen, for showing these tribals Caldari superiority once again.
Unfortunately, I am just tired of their ignorance. I was explaining it to them them over and over again, and they keep going ignoring that. Now you said it. And, just wait a couple of days and another tribal ape or gallentean swine will pop out to blame Caldari being "slavers" or "slaves".
I am tired of this. I don't have patience to deal with such ignorance anymore.
I just want to blow their empty brains out with certified Caldari Navy AntimatterGäó.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2657
|
Posted - 2016.01.12 14:00:23 -
[67] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote:And this differs from other workers how?
You see my point, then. |
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1523
|
Posted - 2016.01.12 17:30:21 -
[68] - Quote
Quote:Except somehow the freeloaders in the Empire tend to somehow float to the top rather than the bottom of the barrel.
I do not think it is only true for the Amarr Empire. The Federation and the Republic probably have some very good examples of this too. |
Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
520
|
Posted - 2016.01.12 17:40:42 -
[69] - Quote
That's a benefit of a system where nepotism is expected. It cuts both ways. Competence is required to be in a position where you can keep your family and clan in positions of power, and the expectation is that if you place your own in beneficial places you are responsible if they fail to meet expectations. Freeloaders anywhere but the bottom rungs thus become rather rare as it's rather damaging for not only yourself but your family and clan if you ruin your own position by promoting freeloaders.
We certainly have them, and unless they are clanless they tend to be cared for to at least a certain degree, but floating to the top? Exceedingly rare. The unfortunate side effect is of course that those seeming to be less useful for the family or clan can end up near the bottoms of the rungs, for simply not being outwardly useful or necessary.
Take this as a very broad generalization that barely touches upon a very complicated and nuanced subject, though. Some places it will be wildly inaccurate, while in others it'll fit like a glove. We are a far less homogeneous nation than the Empire, both culturally and politically, so it'd be more productive to look at local practices independently of others. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
Multicultural F1 Brigade
5828
|
Posted - 2016.01.12 18:55:17 -
[70] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote:I don't believe freeloaders even exist in the Caldari State.
Oh, you'd be surprised!
There are certainly workers in the State who will not put in the extra effort and choose instead to coast at the minimum required level of effort. Those workers tend not to find promotion.
"Caldari Prime burns, those left behind are choking on the dust and ash that fills the air, and you demand our surrender? Is this a joke? You have only hardened our resolve. Every drop of blood you have taken from us will be repaid -- with interest."
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Kador Ouryon
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
79
|
Posted - 2016.01.12 20:45:23 -
[71] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
Take this as a very broad generalization that barely touches upon a very complicated and nuanced subject, though. Some places it will be wildly inaccurate, while in others it'll fit like a glove. We are a far less homogeneous nation than the Empire, both culturally and politically, so it'd be more productive to look at local practices independently of others.
While certainly a more homogeneous culture united by our central tenets of faith I would council caution before making such sweeping generalisation. Even the Amarr have traditions unique to the region and system from which individual hail and also depending on the general policies of the Heir Family whom controls the region.
For every 'free-loader' amongst the nobility you might single out there is likely another whom accept their responsibilities to their social, familial, and religious responsibilities, striving to better the Empire both locally and as a whole, in a manner befitting their position. |
Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
521
|
Posted - 2016.01.12 20:53:40 -
[72] - Quote
I just implied there were freeloaders among the nobles. Did you just imply half of them are freeloaders? That'd be a tad excessive. |
Kador Ouryon
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
79
|
Posted - 2016.01.12 21:12:19 -
[73] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:I just implied there were freeloaders among the nobles. Did you just imply half of them are freeloaders? That'd be a tad excessive.
Figure of speech more so than a literal accusation. |
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1523
|
Posted - 2016.01.12 21:46:27 -
[74] - Quote
How silly of me. I expected an objective discussion...
I can argue that either gallente politicians, some alpha cities children with enough money to buy every door in life, or just a system of tribal elders based on gerontocracy before actual competence is not that different from a system where birth status means almost everything.
But why bother. |
Kalo Askold
Sanguis Inceptum
Of Questionable Repute
20
|
Posted - 2016.01.12 21:52:01 -
[75] - Quote
The Empress is dead and the Empire doesn't have cloths on.
There I said it. |
Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
521
|
Posted - 2016.01.12 22:14:20 -
[76] - Quote
If you think the Tribal Elders are based on gerontocracy you are quite severely misinformed. Even the most basic of understanding of Tribal ways should be sufficient for that. We can pick this up again when you've read some basic primers. |
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1523
|
Posted - 2016.01.12 22:15:44 -
[77] - Quote
Or when you have gotten rid of your propaganda rose tinted glasses.
The answer I expected, and thus why I should not bother. |
Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
521
|
Posted - 2016.01.12 22:40:04 -
[78] - Quote
Well, I suppose I have the advantage of being raised under one system and then had to work very hard to attain status in the other, and thus know both fairly intimately. This shouldn't discourage you, I'm sure you could learn these basics if you tried. Really hard. |
Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
975
|
Posted - 2016.01.13 01:41:23 -
[79] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Elmund Egivand wrote:I don't believe freeloaders even exist in the Caldari State. Oh, you'd be surprised! There are certainly workers in the State who will not put in the extra effort and choose instead to coast at the minimum required level of effort. Those workers tend not to find promotion.
But they are still working right? I always figured the State booted out all the freeloaders ages ago and sent them to live in the ghettos as non-citizens.
Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~ EVERGREEN ~ Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~Evergreen ~ Family
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
Multicultural F1 Brigade
5830
|
Posted - 2016.01.13 03:16:23 -
[80] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Elmund Egivand wrote:I don't believe freeloaders even exist in the Caldari State. Oh, you'd be surprised! There are certainly workers in the State who will not put in the extra effort and choose instead to coast at the minimum required level of effort. Those workers tend not to find promotion. But they are still working right? I always figured the State booted out all the freeloaders ages ago and sent them to live in the ghettos as non-citizens.
Oh, not working at all? I assume you don't mean retired or independently wealthy and dedicated to a life of charitable works?
Yeah. Freeloaders are almost guaranteed to become criminals if there isn't sufficient 'freelance' work around for them to make a living. We tend to crack down pretty hard on folks like that and encourage them to move on to pastures new.
"Caldari Prime burns, those left behind are choking on the dust and ash that fills the air, and you demand our surrender? Is this a joke? You have only hardened our resolve. Every drop of blood you have taken from us will be repaid -- with interest."
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