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Alternate view on log off tactic

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LUGAL MOP'N'GLO	Posted - 2007.01.29 16:43:00 - [121] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: boogaboob Of COURSE it's an exploit. The reason is rather obvious. But here I go, explaining it. Such mods as warp disruptors were put into the game to prevent players from warping away. Said mods have counters, E.G. warp core stabilizers and getting out of scramble range, intended so that the properly equipped player can escape their effect. Logging off is use of a real-world tactic to defeat an ingame tactic, which already has ingame counters prepared for it, each of which can be countered or nullified by more ingame tactics. Logging off has no ingame counter. Thus, it is an exploit. And to answer your question, th reason CCP can't tell if the person logged off deliberately is that a intentional logoff occurs the same way as an unintentional one: the internet connection is broken or the client shuts down. Whereas said ship losses are logged to records which CCP can find. DURRRRRRRRRRR Thanks but you didn't need to explain this to me. I already know how it works and why. All I am asking for is one of these posters who say it has "been said by CCP a Trillion times" to show me where it has been said even once so that it can be cleared up once and for all and we all can label it as "a cheat" with a clear conscience. So far, the silence has been deafening...... Dev Statement... Now gtfo. There are more where that came from, trust me. ~~~~~~~~~ Hey Gai. Bak Off Coz Ai Bang Yu Hawd. K Gai?
Angellyne	Posted - 2007.01.29 16:53:00 - [122] Originally by: LUGAL MOP'N'GLO[url="http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=464937&page=2" Dev Statement... Now gtfo.[/url] There are more where that came from, trust me. "yes we care" "something will be done, we just don't know what or when" Yeah, that's the same as "It's an exploit." Now gafc, or something.
Athren Soulsteal Gallente Intergalaxy Salvage And Repair	Posted - 2007.01.29 17:23:00 - [123] Srry have to trim your quotes or my post wont fit. Quote: 1: you can still .... the upperhand. I wanted to qualify my point; you are flagged for attacking non-war targets. Now if you remember back before the Prat welfare program anyone attacking a non-war target was not only flagged but attacked by concord. Also you were limited to how many wars you could have as well as decline a wardeq. CCP designed both originally to insure consensual PVP but when a few key people left the Dev team and were replaced with hard core PKers and Mainly because there were so few players they initiated one part of the Prat welfare program by removing response to criminal flagging thus Non-consensual PVP was a result of the attempt to force player interaction not the original design. This is also the purpose of having the sec system. 0.0 was the only place originally intended for non-consensual PVP. Quote: 2: not true..when eve ...at gates in lowsec. . ThatÆs also not exactly true, that is. The reason that you had random (ok there were only 6 possible points in every system) jump in points was to prevent players from jumping into a camp. As you point out, CCP never intended for gates to become the bottle necks they are today but because of the low population on the servers 3k (yes 3000+/- at peak time) and the fact that they were busy elsewhere (trying to buy the right back) they needed a quick fix so implemented the jump to gate and as an after though added guns even all be it for a sort while in 0.0 space. Again trying to dissuade players from gate camping, but in the end there was simply no better mechanic in place so they left fixing it for later. Quote: 3:You can play eve solo...with other players. I agree, why play a MMOG solo? I was simply responding to those that try and state that the only valid play style for EVE is as a blob that they are wrong, any play style that does not get you criminally flagged is valid. Quote: 4:not all invaders ..you need friends. . Ok, this point was made three (3) years ago by a few of the Devs, anyone claming a system in 0.0 space should have to actually protect the resources. But because there were so few players at the time it was decided to force players to interact, now I lived in 0.0 for a year and back then there was less than 10 players in the entire region so at the time it would have been impossible to hold and protect a system you clamed. Today this is not the case with 30k players there is no reason to not go back to the original design. Any alliance can now easily hold what systems they wish to claim without allowing them to claim more than they could actually hold. The whole point was to force corp PVP for systems and those systems resources. Gates were not put in game so players would interact gates were always in game to get from one system to the next. The lack of players was the reason that the bottlenecks were created because there should be player interaction to a point. However what goals you have set is what determines whether you need friends or not. If you goal is to buy and fly a BS then you can do that solo but if your goal is to claim a system then you do need friends because you need to protect your claimed resources which happens to be the moons, asteroid fields, DS complexes, gas clouds and even rat spawns but does not include the gates. Gates are not resources and were never intended to be controlled but because of bad game mechanics have been for the last few years. Read the post and Blogs by the devs, they understand this is a problem and are trying to come up with a solution. The sad part is that all they would have to do is repeal all the Prat welfare programs and that would solve the problem and open up 0.0 and low sec, all the goal CCP wants easily solved. Quote: Think about the people that did fight you fairly. Think.... that were honorable and helped you out in times of need. Those are the real heroes of EVE. I wish I could fit all the Quote
Doomed Predator The Phoenix Rising Distant Star Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.29 17:29:00 - [124] Well untill ccp creates a way to counter gate ganks in any way i will think that logging off to prevent death vs a 30 man gank is a fair way.
Doomed Predator The Phoenix Rising Distant Star Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.29 17:29:00 - [125] Well untill ccp creates a way to counter gate ganks in any way i will think that logging off to prevent death vs a 30 man gank is a fair way.
Einheriar Ulrich Minmatar FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.29 18:04:00 - [126] ThatÆs also not exactly true, that is. The reason that you had random (ok there were only 6 possible points in every system) jump in points was to prevent players from jumping into a camp. As you point out, CCP never intended for gates to become the bottle necks they are today but because of the low population on the servers 3k (yes 3000+/- at peak time) and the fact that they were busy elsewhere (trying to buy the right back) they needed a quick fix so implemented the jump to gate and as an after though added guns even all be it for a sort while in 0.0 space. Again trying to dissuade players from gate camping, but in the end there was simply no better mechanic in place so they left fixing it for later. Yes and i remember moving big fleets around...not being able to catch anyone, because of the different jip's...Gates are the perfect solution...else their would actually be consentual PvP........ Criminal flagging dont have anything to do with consentual PvP.......you take a risk, most proberly die in the process...but victim cannot say "no i will not PvP" Their are means to escape from battle ingame via module setup and skills..thats the way it should be done. the emptiness of lowsec has nothing to do with bottlenecks..its because, you dont have a rasson to go there as a new player....The reward is so much higher in highsec.....How to repopulate lowsec, is another story alltogether, and the removal of gatecamps would only have a very small impact. I once had a sig...it deleted
LUGAL MOP'N'GLO	Posted - 2007.01.29 18:17:00 - [127] Originally by: Angellyne "yes we care" "something will be done, we just don't know what or when" Yeah, that's the same as "It's an exploit." Now gafc, or something. Listen for ****'s sake. If the devs have stated that yes, it is a problem and we care about it. If you scroll down on that link you will see more discussion from the devs on how to fix it. Now. If you don't think that a proclaimed GAME BREAKING tactic is bad for the game you play (EVE) then by all means keep doing it ass hat. ~~~~~~~~~ Hey Gai. Bak Off Coz Ai Bang Yu Hawd. K Gai?
Killian Cormac	Posted - 2007.01.29 18:52:00 - [128] Organized 0.0 groups should have the ability to control who goes through their front gate or interdict the gates of their enemies. Eve is not just a tactical game, it's strategic as well. Disconnections while at risk, whether intentional or not, should have consequences.
Angellyne	Posted - 2007.01.29 19:03:00 - [129] Originally by: LUGAL MOP'N'GLO More fuming, less thinking. Yes, I know. Go ahead and assume I'm a logoffski type, just because I stepped on your egotistical not-quite-relevant inapproprately condescending previous post. And then post a link to a Dev calling it an exploit, or else shut your yap about it. Thanks.
Clementina Eye of God X-PACT	Posted - 2007.01.29 19:06:00 - [130] You should not log out. There are plenty of ship types that can escape the bubble. Granted not all ships can escape a bubble, but a Raptor, a Vagabond, or a Nanophoon can most definitely. You can also roll an alt, and use it to detect the bubbles. You don't even need a second account, just a second character should be sufficient for your scouting needs. Now, you'll be ganked every once and awhile, but not all the time. If you cannot avoid being ganked under any circumstances, you probably suck. However also be mindful that logging off is not really an exploit. While the statement 'You should not log out' is correct as far as morality is concerned, Eve is not real life, it is a game. In games the only rules that matter are the ones that compose the game mechanics, or the ones that penalties are attached to. The game allows you to log out, and doing so incurs no punishment. It's just like in chess, 3 move checkmates against chess n00bs are immoral (It's essentially griefing.), but they are not banned by the rules of chess, and therefore are allowed.
Gretek Lal Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.01.29 19:07:00 - [131] Originally by: Einheriar Ulrich EVE was never intended to be a singleplayer game..... Perhaps. Perhaps not. In reality, for many people it IS a single player game. Why? Because many of us have real lives and real responsibilities outside Eve. We play when we can, an hour here and there. We can't often play when friends are online. We can't participate in many corp activities, because a child is sick, a parent must be taken to the doctor, a spouse needs to talk about her crappy work day, dinner must be made, etc. Too bad there are almost no player corps in Eve for people like us.
R34PER	Posted - 2007.01.29 19:08:00 - [132] Originally by: Doomed Predator Well untill ccp creates a way to counter gate ganks in any way i will think that logging off to prevent death vs a 30 man gank is a fair way. QFT Also i would like to add IBTL, Get Over It and a statement which goes that when i am able to replace my lost ships quick and painlessly, and having enough cash to wipe my arse with, sure then you can remove ctrl+q
Buster Gonads	Posted - 2007.01.29 19:15:00 - [133] Originally by: Dark Shikari Man, we're playing a good game of Chess here, but you just got me nearly checkmated. I'm going to quit right now, and see? I don't lose, because I quit the turn before my loss! (Hint: In real life chess, if you quit, you forfeit and thus lose. In EVE, if you quit in the middle of a fight by logging off, that should be equivalent. And getting checkmated is no different from getting outmaneuvered and caught by a blob) Inappropriate analogy FTL (as usual). If you are going to use chess, then it's more like advancing a pawn to C7 and then having it reset back to C2. I don't have a problem with the loggers, because they are no longer playing the game and well, they do pay to play the game, don't they? On a deeper level, of course the problem is the lack of zones of interaction (meaningful ones). This is one of the fundamental problems with a gate <-> gate system. Too late to remove it. Eve will suck for as long as it's online.
Einheriar Ulrich Minmatar FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.29 19:35:00 - [134] Originally by: Gretek Lal Originally by: Einheriar Ulrich EVE was never intended to be a singleplayer game..... Perhaps. Perhaps not. In reality, for many people it IS a single player game. Why? Because many of us have real lives and real responsibilities outside Eve. We play when we can, an hour here and there. We can't often play when friends are online. We can't participate in many corp activities, because a child is sick, a parent must be taken to the doctor, a spouse needs to talk about her crappy work day, dinner must be made, etc. Too bad there are almost no player corps in Eve for people like us. Create one I also have a busy workschedule.....if your worth it...playing time is not a problem...most of the guys i play with, have carreers and spouses aswell. I once had a sig...it deleted
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.01.29 19:35:00 - [135] Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 29/01/2007 19:35:15 Originally by: Buster Gonads Originally by: Dark Shikari Man, we're playing a good game of Chess here, but you just got me nearly checkmated. I'm going to quit right now, and see? I don't lose, because I quit the turn before my loss! (Hint: In real life chess, if you quit, you forfeit and thus lose. In EVE, if you quit in the middle of a fight by logging off, that should be equivalent. And getting checkmated is no different from getting outmaneuvered and caught by a blob) Inappropriate analogy FTL (as usual). If you are going to use chess, then it's more like advancing a pawn to C7 and then having it reset back to C2. I don't have a problem with the loggers, because they are no longer playing the game and well, they do pay to play the game, don't they? Except that in this case they often actually accomplish goals by "no longer playing". The easiest example being that of getting into a guarded system safely. In a sense, DS' analogy is flawed in that it doesn't quite go far enough. But yeah, analogies are tricky things. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Einheriar Ulrich Minmatar FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.29 19:36:00 - [136] Edited by: Einheriar Ulrich on 29/01/2007 19:33:37 Edited by: Einheriar Ulrich on 29/01/2007 19:32:56 Originally by: R34PER Originally by: Doomed Predator Well untill ccp creates a way to counter gate ganks in any way i will think that logging off to prevent death vs a 30 man gank is a fair way. QFT Also i would like to add IBTL, Get Over It and a statement which goes that when i am able to replace my lost ships quick and painlessly, and having enough cash to wipe my arse with, sure then you can remove ctrl+q Golden rule in eve...never fly anything you cant replace. CTRLQ is not the solution. I once had a sig...it deleted
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.01.29 21:08:00 - [137] I don't really understand what there is to talk about... PvP in EVE is designed to be non-consentual. Or whatever the word is. As in, I don't have to get your permission to blow your junk up. It's been said by the devs on numerous occasions. However, as long as ctrl-Q is working as it is, that design is broke. So why 'discuss' it when it's obviously not working correctly? Well, other than to try and justify keeping a broken game mechanic... ------------------- Ignorance
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.29 22:06:00 - [138] Consentual or not, fair or not, it's all irrelevant really when it comes to this discussion. The problem that ctrl-q causes is that noone can anylonger stop you from going where you want. And noone is going to effectively be able to stp you from doing what you want without nullifying their own gametime as well. How do you think CCP's vision for this game is going to be able to come true if nothing anyone does can affect someone else against their will ? How will we create the content, drama, and storylines to fuel this game then ? We won't, eve dies. Old blog Originally by: Vriezuh Naz: John is a realist
Phelan Lore Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.01.29 22:33:00 - [139] Logging off in comabat is (insert words which would get me banned from the forums). There are ways to escape from camps and blobs without logging. Using a scout or flying an appropriately fit ship to solo in, to name a few. Logging isn't a "tool" for people who fly solo. It's an exploit plain and simple. The only reason CCP tolerates it is because there is no way to determine the cause of the logout. I fly solo all of the time and I don't log out. I like the compairison DS made to the chess game... Every time somebody logs out on you, just imagine a screaming 6 year old knocking over the game board and storming out of the room. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
Zarottid Boznemmek Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.01.29 22:44:00 - [140] Originally by: Hasak Rain Here are a few things to consider about the logoff tactic: 1) In most MMO's which feature PvP, "Camping" is considered bad and a weakness of the game's mechanics. Play one of the "most MMO's" then Quote: 2) Crowd Control {CC} is often controversial in PvP because it forces those who do not want to pvp to die anyway. This is especially frustrating to the target if they are vastly outnumbered.{snip} It does not force anyone to PVP. That's like saying a person who ignores the "BEWARE OF SHARK" sign at a beach was forced to be attacked by a shark. LOL
Kehmor Caldari PAK	Posted - 2007.01.29 23:26:00 - [141] I don't blob, so am i allowed to be annoyed?
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.01.29 23:30:00 - [142] This thread makes baby Jesus cry. Can't believe this is actually a discussion. Cheaters gtfo! /Ki Haven't got one yet?
Sir Carealot Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.01.29 23:33:00 - [143] But, MOMMY, I want my knight to move like a rook or the white pieces are going to pod my king!!!1oneeleven
Miri Tirzan Caldari Clan Korval	Posted - 2007.01.30 00:31:00 - [144] Originally by: Shichiro Motokana I've been wondering this for awhile. How exactly does logging off save someone from destruction? Isn't there a timer or something that has to run out before the ship warps off to randomland? AND WE HAVE A WINNER. Logging off if you have been shot at means that they have quite a while to probe you out and kill your ship. The only place it really works, I believe is when your jump in at a gate, and log before decloaking. Then they still get to shoot at you, if they are quick but the timer does not start. This means that if people are logging off as they are losing the combat, they only thing they save is thier pod. But then the Pie rats would have to be prepared for more than just ganking. svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2007.01.30 01:06:00 - [145] Originally by: Miri Tirzan Originally by: Shichiro Motokana I've been wondering this for awhile. How exactly does logging off save someone from destruction? Isn't there a timer or something that has to run out before the ship warps off to randomland? AND WE HAVE A WINNER. Logging off if you have been shot at means that they have quite a while to probe you out and kill your ship. The only place it really works, I believe is when your jump in at a gate, and log before decloaking. Then they still get to shoot at you, if they are quick but the timer does not start. This means that if people are logging off as they are losing the combat, they only thing they save is thier pod. But then the Pie rats would have to be prepared for more than just ganking. And by be quick you mean have a sensor strength of 10000 right The point is your bending a mechanic to the point of snaping actually scratch that the mechanic has been snapped and his splinters are now in every ones skin. The fact of the matter is the Deep space trucker lobby feel that they have the right to travel solo and I enforce that right to the fullest by they also feel they should have the right to be invincible by any means necessary (and thusly causing the crash of the t2 haulermarket) and that is something I do not support. IF IT IS OF VALUE BRING FRIENDS! Half Assed Rhymage

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