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Missile Splash Damage To Your Own Missiles

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Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.12.07 09:40:00 - [1] Please stop your own missiles destroying each other via splash damage, TomB. No amount of skill can avoid it. Staggered launcher activation is only a way of reducing the risk but the launchers don't immediately fire when you've activated them so it's stupidly hard to judge. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
darth solo	Posted - 2003.12.07 10:51:00 - [2] yeah, sucks rather alot. "Your torpedo hits celest torpedo doing 400 dmg" Sigh
Svarun	Posted - 2003.12.07 10:57:00 - [3] Whats the next step? Have missiles belonging to gang members ignore each other? Then corp? Then alliance? How would you explain missile cought in blast radius not exploding? Yeah, it is annoying, but its also reasonable.
CLONE 9	Posted - 2003.12.07 11:11:00 - [4] These things dish out a huge amount of damage and have a killer shockwave. To think that an unshielded torp could just fly through that without going pop kind of shatters the illusion that has been created. I'm curious to see what the overall consensus is though.
xeno calligan	Posted - 2003.12.07 11:46:00 - [5] IMO it's "shock waves in space" that shatters the illusion. A shockwave requires a medium and you have a really hard time finding it in space unless you provide it yourself. Incidently, there's a reason why shaped charges are more effective against armor than a fragmentation grenade (of equivalent power). What we have now is missiles acting as fragmentation grenades (to explain the blast radius) and that is not really realistic.
Jarjar	Posted - 2003.12.07 11:57:00 - [6] If this is fixed I guess pretty much everyone in a raven will use torpedos, 6 launchers. I'd like it myself since I'm getting one, but... Pretty unrealistic, too. I chose a raven even though I'm going to use it in empire space, with gates and stations to splash; at least until the patch.
dalman	Posted - 2003.12.07 12:11:00 - [7] Well... 1 NO then missiles would rule, so it can't be that way. but 2 FIX THE DAMN BUGS. And with bugs I mean two thing: 2.1 The missiles isn't launching when I activate the module. 2 launchers can launch their missiles at the same time even if I activate them 1.5 seconds apart. and 2.2 Somehow the missiles blow up each other even when they should not. If I fit 6 arbalest launchers on my Raven I have 7.69s ROF. Which means 1.28s between each missile. I can't time it that good, but even if there is only 1 second between each cruise missiles, that means they are 1900 meters apart. And the blast radius is only 800 meters. But somehow they still blow up each other (So, no, I'm not running 6 launchers) M.I.A. since 2004-07-30
Siddy	Posted - 2003.12.07 13:06:00 - [8] Edited by: Siddy on 07/12/2003 13:10:08 /emote looks at massive torp volleys regardles of blastradius - and shakes his head, after what he goes and get raven do i need to say more? -------------------------------------------
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.12.07 15:54:00 - [9] Use cruise missiles. Smaller blast radius. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
dalman	Posted - 2003.12.07 16:15:00 - [10] Quote: Use cruise missiles. Smaller blast radius. As I said, that doesn't always help... M.I.A. since 2004-07-30
Nirvy	Posted - 2003.12.07 16:51:00 - [11] Quote: Quote: Use cruise missiles. Smaller blast radius. As I said, that doesn't always help... yea but its easier to time cruise missiles apart, unless of course the damn launch lag kicks in. Makes sense that the blast radius destroys other missiles to me, annoying yes. I'd rather they fixed the defenders, if you launch 4 defender missiles from 4 launchers, they all target the closest missile, and once gone they all target the next closest. Would be cool if somehow defenders didnt just swarm one missile. Hell on occasions they target my own torps, my my corp mates. Mercenary \| The Azath
Kovak	Posted - 2003.12.07 18:03:00 - [12] I woulda thought missiles are fairly uber as it is.. In a bs you can't outrun em they are guaranteed to hit if you jam the ship shooting they switch to fof and keep on shooting they do very good damage they are pretty much the only weapon that can knock your ship around like a rag doll (try getting in close on any ship with missiles its an impossibility) I'm sure they do have their downsides as well, but I woulda thought they're fairly balanced at the moment.
McWatt	Posted - 2003.12.07 19:12:00 - [13] it s a weird efect and should be removed. penalise missiles in a different way if you think they are too strong.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.12.07 20:12:00 - [14] Well, I was almost right - it's the buggy activation time! LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.12.07 20:22:00 - [15] Except for the bug dalman mentioned, the situation is fine as it stands. Otherwise all we'd ever see is Ravens + Torps because suddenly 6 torps arriving at the same time has no drawback. Part of the balancing for missiles is the fact they have to be staggered, I believe. And, tho I haven't run the numbers myself, I'm fairly certain with standard missiles 5 + cruise missiles 5 you do outdamage torps because the increased speed allows you to fire faster + the increased damage. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.12.07 20:48:00 - [16] Cruise Missile Level 5 is not something I'll attempt until better implants are around LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Sphalerite	Posted - 2003.12.08 00:15:00 - [17] A simple fix would be to knock the speed of everything but torps up, and the explosion radius down. Speeds are going to need to be adjusted anyway... Light/heavy missiles couldn't catch half the frigates out there before and with the new speed mods, no current missile can catch most of them. If cruise missiles were taken up to something like 4000m/s and had the explosion radius taken down to 100 or so, you wouldn't have to time missile chains nearly so accurately. also, you could use them from farther out and not have to wait forever to start doing damage. Move heavies up to 6000m/s and lights up to 10000m/s and tweak the agilities so they don't blast by speedy targets and follow them around like lost puppies. reducing the explosion radius also keeps thing closer to reality. we don't need to make missiles immune to eachother or something impossible like that. I'd keep torps slow and big so that people can have their fireworks.
SS Vegito	Posted - 2003.12.08 00:18:00 - [18] Quote: Cruise Missile Level 5 is not something I'll attempt until better implants are around ~13days left for me.
xeno calligan	Posted - 2003.12.08 02:53:00 - [19] Edited by: xeno calligan on 08/12/2003 05:48:57 I think missiles are not so overpowered as they seem to be. If you have lvl 4 in all relevant skills (pre reqs at lvl 5), you can do the same DOT with a Megathron with Neutron Blaster Cannons as you can with a Raven -- taking reloading into account. If you want to overcome the range issues, mount 425mm rails and 2-3 damage mods instead, and you're still doing the same DOT. The Megathron even has the option of mounting 2 launchers with defenders which (provided that defenders work properly) will neutralize 2 launchers on the Raven. I'd dare say that the firepower is fairly evenly matched. While the Raven has an extra mid slot and more cap available, using launchers delays your damage with several seconds, giving your opponent a significant advantage. I find it very odd that several thousands of years into the future, engineers can't make better onboard systems than "follow this guy and detonate when within xxx km of something". Thousands of years from now, chances are that the missiles would be smarter than the pilot who launched them and perfectly capable of coordinating a proper attack, rather than being even more simplistic than current RL missiles. Just off the top of my head: They can't dodge obstacles on the way They can't tell the real target from any other object they happen to come across They don't know how to lead a target They can't coordinate attacks with other missiles so they detonate simultaneuosly rather than blowing eachother up I don't expect the devs to make hyper-advanced guidance systems, but IMO it's very reasonable to assume that they would have fixed problems like the above thousands of years from now. A very simple way to simulate this is to remove the explosion radius and damage only the intended target(s). Furthermore, isn't it unrealistic that the Caldari would design a costly battleship that can launch missiles at a rate faster than their fubar missile onboard logics can cope with? If it's a real problem, how about rolling two missiles up into one and call it a new missile? Also from a player perspective it seems a bit odd. Missiles aren't grossly overpowered (but perhaps the Raven is slightly overpowered) -- they are equivalent to Gallente + Neutron Blasters in destructive power, yet they don't hit instantaneously and they can be destroyed in flight. If they also blow eachother up, it means that missiles simply don't scale at all. You can have 10 Tempests hammering at a ship at the same time, but 2 Ravens would be a complete waste of time and isk. Maybe the Ravens would need some private time with a nerfbat, but that's not a reason to stick to the crippled missile logic.
Bigfoot Hunter	Posted - 2003.12.08 10:37:00 - [20] I think they are just fine blowing each other up otherwise as others have said there will just be a rush for ravens (not to mention take away the hilarity of seeing 1 defender take out a chain of enemy cruise missels headed at u ) As for makeing missels travel at speeds of excesse of 4k a second i have to say that is a horrible idea and would make it almost impossible to kill incoming missels. Smartbombs wouldnt be able to knock out the missels cause of lag activation time and i seriously doubt defender missels would have time to leave the launcher and then head towards the missel before it impacted with its target unless they are firing from extreme ranges. -------------------------------------- Fortis cadere, cedere non potest
Shin Taka	Posted - 2003.12.09 00:42:00 - [21] Missiles are a paperbag, with a nuke in. if ANYTHING hits them they blow up. This is true in life and in eve. Think about this please. yeah, brain. Use it. If an explosive gets caught in an explosion what happens? BOOM! If you think you have to fire them too slowly, go back to someything else. Missiles are really nasty as is, and don't need to be rapid fire. This is as bad as the miners complaining that its too difficult... ----------- Keeper of the Wombat 2004.09.03 00:42:20notifyTraining of the skill Repair Systems lvl 6 has been completed.
xeno calligan	Posted - 2003.12.09 02:57:00 - [22] Edited by: xeno calligan on 09/12/2003 03:19:07 Quote: Missiles are a paperbag, with a nuke in. if ANYTHING hits them they blow up. This is true in life and in eve. Think about this please. yeah, brain. Use it. If an explosive gets caught in an explosion what happens? BOOM! If you think you have to fire them too slowly, go back to someything else. Missiles are really nasty as is, and don't need to be rapid fire. This is as bad as the miners complaining that its too difficult... You'd be surprised to learn just how difficult some payloads are to set off. I'm sure the ppl at DARPA would be very happy if all you had to do to detonate a RL high-tech nuclear weapon was to "blow it up". Sure you can shoot missiles down, but that doesn't imply that they detonate. As I mentioned in my previous post, fragmentation grenades are basicly a waste of energy (but quite good when you don't know which way to aim the explosive force, obviously -- hint: surface area of a sphere is 4pir^2). I don't really care about how fast you can or cannot fire missiles on a Raven or any other battleship for that matter. What bothers me is that missiles don't scale to fleet combat. That I have to babysit my onboard computer to perform extremely trivial tasks. That the guidance system on the missiles is laughable even by todays standards. "Go back to something else"?? I'm Caldari, so I don't really have a choice not to use missiles. Currently, they are "really nasty" for the same reasons "tachyons are uber" ...and they say ignorance is bliss
zukuroo	Posted - 2003.12.09 05:33:00 - [23] I see the problem not so much in them setting each other off since the blast radius is occasionally something you want (a new kind of heavy or very heavy missile with next to no blast radius would be great though); what¦s much more of a problem is the little buggers hitting either each other or your opponents missiles in flight. especially when two missile boats shoot it out you get very little actual hits, since most of your missiles get used as very expensive defenders... I¦d love an option to tell your missiles to fan out a bit more, trading some flight time for survivability. Or just remove the ability for missiles (except defenders) to hit each other, please.
Shin Taka	Posted - 2003.12.27 10:31:00 - [24] I'd like to see shaped charges, No blast radius missiles, but they'd be too powerful, atm, the only reason to not use them, is that they can be indiscriminant... ----------- Keeper of the Wombat 2004.09.03 00:42:20notifyTraining of the skill Repair Systems lvl 6 has been completed.
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2003.12.27 10:52:00 - [25] This bug is still around? I'm kind of suprised. This doesn't happen with torpedoes? You would think it would, since blast radius on torps is so huge. To those who want missles nerfed: Missles should be powerful, really powerful.. especially in the hands of Caldari ships. I mean.. you guys aware how expensive it is to use missles? EM missles use MEGACYTE, most of the good missles use Zydrine, they're a lot cheaper than they once were, but they're certainly not cheap to use. Another drawback, you can't carry a lot of them, especially torpedes, you might say so what? But a few battles can really leave you with a low supply of missles, they go fast. Only thing that is imbalanced about missles, is that frigates can fire cruise missles. They should probably be limited to heavy missles at best. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
Ordo Abchao	Posted - 2003.12.27 11:02:00 - [26] Quote: This bug is still around? I'm kind of suprised. This doesn't happen with torpedoes? You would think it would, since blast radius on torps is so huge. To those who want missles nerfed: Missles should be powerful, really powerful.. especially in the hands of Caldari ships. I mean.. you guys aware how expensive it is to use missles? EM missles use MEGACYTE, most of the good missles use Zydrine, they're a lot cheaper than they once were, but they're certainly not cheap to use. Another drawback, you can't carry a lot of them, especially torpedes, you might say so what? But a few battles can really leave you with a low supply of missles, they go fast. Only thing that is imbalanced about missles, is that frigates can fire cruise missles. They should probably be limited to heavy missles at best. A few things on this comment, missles were already nerfed, moreso the launchers, if you haven't noticed, the h-50's and seige launchers have been pushed back to/reverted to a 20 second rof respectivly. Also this bug isn't around anymore, they made it so missles cannot blow each other up unless they hit missles that are not your own which is why the rof nerf came into place. Also paradice cruise missles do use megacyte, but mjolnir torps only use a little zyd, so they are conciderably cheaper to produce. And seperating what missle is good and what isn't is pretty much useless as only the opposing players setup is what determins what the best missle is. Order out of Chaos
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2003.12.27 11:13:00 - [27] Quote: A few things on this comment, missles were already nerfed, moreso the launchers, if you haven't noticed, the h-50's and seige launchers have been pushed back to/reverted to a 20 second rof respectivly. Ya I know that, I still have a 9sec ROF with my H-50 Arbalests though, which is decent. ^^ Quote: Also this bug isn't around anymore, they made it so missles cannot blow each other up unless they hit missles that are not your own which is why the rof nerf came into place. So, when you fire missles at a target.. say you fire a volley of 4 it no longer does this: missle 1 hits destroys missle 2 missles 3 hits destroys missle 4 cause it used to do that, i'm pretty sure. Quote: Also paradice cruise missles do use megacyte, but mjolnir torps only use a little zyd, so they are conciderably cheaper to produce. And seperating what missle is good and what isn't is pretty much useless as only the opposing players setup is what determins what the best missle is. I never used torps much, but if mjolnir torps don't use megacyte, and paradise do, that's kind of retarded. Paradise missles are not even worth it, the megacyte cost is too high, why bother, i'd rather stick with kinetic, those are cheap(er). ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.12.27 14:03:00 - [28] "So, when you fire missles at a target.. say you fire a volley of 4 it no longer does this: missle 1 hits destroys missle 2 missles 3 hits destroys missle 4" Yup, they still do that (albeit to lesser degree because the explosion radius for missiles was reduced) I don't really mind it, 'tis quite logical effect. What they fixed though is the stupid bug which would cause the missiles to explode as soon as another missile was passing nearby -- like the incoming missiles from the ship you're shooting at that was shooting back at you.
Luc Boye	Posted - 2003.12.27 19:32:00 - [29] Missiles are expensive, even if effective. If you look and travel say, 10 jmps you can buy 100 cruise missiles for 0,5 mil. If you manufacture them with current mineral prices, it ends up about the same, if you dont have elite production skills. Now lets say that you do npc hunting, you need a loads of missiles to kill NPC's so bounty hardly pays it off. Compare this to tach users. So yes, cruise missiles and torps should kick ass, after all they cost that much. -- 2004.12.29 23:33:40combatMining Pollution Cloud hits you, doing 140.0 damage.
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2003.12.27 21:30:00 - [30] Quote: Yup, they still do that (albeit to lesser degree because the explosion radius for missiles was reduced) I don't really mind it, 'tis quite logical effect. What they fixed though is the stupid bug which would cause the missiles to explode as soon as another missile was passing nearby -- like the incoming missiles from the ship you're shooting at that was shooting back at you. Missles should always hit, unless taken out with a defender or smart bomb.. that is retarded, they need to fix it.. especially since they increased ROF on launchers again. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE

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