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Log Pirates

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Alowishus OctoberSnow Corp	Posted - 2007.01.26 22:17:00 - [31] Originally by: Neisen C'nelen NOT griefe people then log out :) It's simple, if you attack someone, or have a bounty on yer head, don't log out when yer going down. It realy is THAT simple. Are we really now going to have an argument about what "going down" means? Read this, a few times if you need to, if you are not locked, but rather at a safe spot, you are not "going down." Period. People log at safe spots all the time, people in deep space, it's a common practive. Ideaology can't simply be the line between good logging at a safe and bad logging at a safe. You have to draw the line elsewhere. I draw it at being target locked. If you log while target locked, I think that is frowned upon. But logging in a system, at a safe, when you are outnumbered should be ok. I can't explain it further. If you still disagree with me then you disagree. I'm not even going to get into "griefing" as it does not exist in Eve since non-consentual PvP is part of the game mechanics. Originally by: Origin Prior You were gate camping, how lame can you get.
Alowishus OctoberSnow Corp	Posted - 2007.01.26 22:18:00 - [32] Originally by: Nidhoggur Originally by: Neisen C'nelen Well, thats actually the whole point. It's a game, with rules. If yer not abiding by the rules, ye cheeting. Nothing wrong with running when you have to. But, if you make the tacticle mistake of pinning yerself into a dead-end system, do everything you can to outrun the guys chasing you, or slip out. But, loggin out is just cheeting, plain and simple. Would it be better if the trapped pirates warped from safe to safe until you left? Frankly, it's easy to avoid combat in Eve, if one side is determined to. If these people you trapped simply warped around continually, you would never catch them. Trust me on that. As for the general argument, Alowishus clearly has the right point here. You are complaining about the poor morals of the people you are hunting, nothing more. They are not 'Cheeting' as you so eloquently put it. Eve is all about playing to a set of morals, agreed, but they need not be good ones. Finally someone who gets it. Thank you. Originally by: Origin Prior You were gate camping, how lame can you get.
Neisen C'nelen	Posted - 2007.01.26 22:19:00 - [33] Originally by: Nidhoggur Originally by: Neisen C'nelen Well, thats actually the whole point. It's a game, with rules. If yer not abiding by the rules, ye cheeting. Nothing wrong with running when you have to. But, if you make the tacticle mistake of pinning yerself into a dead-end system, do everything you can to outrun the guys chasing you, or slip out. But, loggin out is just cheeting, plain and simple. Would it be better if the trapped pirates warped from safe to safe until you left? Frankly, it's easy to avoid combat in Eve, if one side is determined to. If these people you trapped simply warped around continually, you would never catch them. Trust me on that. As for the general argument, Alowishus clearly has the right point here. You are complaining about the poor morals of the people you are hunting, nothing more. They are not 'Cheeting' as you so eloquently put it. Eve is all about playing to a set of morals, agreed, but they need not be good ones. Yes, it would be better to warp from place to place untill one side gives up. As I said, negotiate, kill, avoid, all kinds of things. Loging out is not a "Play style" btw. If youn think it is, you should sit down with the designers and see what they say :)
Alowishus OctoberSnow Corp	Posted - 2007.01.26 22:21:00 - [34] Well dude, next time I have to log out I'll convo you to make sure I meet the criteria of a propper log out since you are the authority. Originally by: Origin Prior You were gate camping, how lame can you get.
Wesley Baird HelpCorp United Eden's Fire	Posted - 2007.01.26 22:21:00 - [35] If I may, I want to steer the conversation back to one central point, which is using the loggin method as a key arrow in your quiver. I'm not talking about 1 ship being ganked and the fellow decides to bail. I'm talking about the use of logging as part of an overall battle plan. Log in the face of even numbers for example, or when you have a slight advantage, is this a good use of game mechanics? Perhaps in 0.0 there should be a 60 minutes aggro counter. I understand completely the rational behind logging, and to be honest it is a very cold and calculating way to approach eve. However it doesn't take any skill, or throught, and kind of defeats the whole "playing a game" mentality, but it is a viable option. The question I have, is it an 'acceptable' option?
Alowishus OctoberSnow Corp	Posted - 2007.01.26 22:30:00 - [36] Edited by: Alowishus on 26/01/2007 22:28:38 Edited by: Alowishus on 26/01/2007 22:26:54 Originally by: Wesley Baird If I may, I want to steer the conversation back to one central point, which is using the loggin method as a key arrow in your quiver. I'm not talking about 1 ship being ganked and the fellow decides to bail. I'm talking about the use of logging as part of an overall battle plan. Log in the face of even numbers for example, or when you have a slight advantage, is this a good use of game mechanics? Perhaps in 0.0 there should be a 60 minutes aggro counter. I understand completely the rational behind logging, and to be honest it is a very cold and calculating way to approach eve. However it doesn't take any skill, or throught, and kind of defeats the whole "playing a game" mentality, but it is a viable option. The question I have, is it an 'acceptable' option? It's not hard to draw the line between when it's acceptable to log out and when it's not. Target locked: unacceptable (but it's only gonna save your pod so who cares?) Any other time: acceptable If you start adding more variables then it becomes far too complicated. I mean we could go on for days. Can you log out if you're heavily outnumbered? Slightly outnumbered? What if your enemy has more skill points? Less? What if you really have to go somewhere? What if downtime is in a few minutes anyway? What if the enemy fleet has left the system but is waiting on the other side of the gate and are not in your addressbook and you assume they left? Can they eve-mail you to inform you that since they were still waiting for you that you are now retroactively guilty of an unacceptable log out? We could get really complex. And when is it safe to assume that logging in is not part of your game tactic? Should I log in and sit there for ten minutes so as to make sure that logging in did not affect my tactics? Let's just keep it simple. Originally by: Origin Prior You were gate camping, how lame can you get.
Nidhoggur The Movement	Posted - 2007.01.26 22:31:00 - [37] Originally by: Wesley Baird I understand completely the rational behind logging, and to be honest it is a very cold and calculating way to approach eve. However it doesn't take any skill, or throught, and kind of defeats the whole "playing a game" mentality, but it is a viable option. The question I have, is it an 'acceptable' option? Logging in combat or to escape combat is, of course, frowned upon. But it's purely an E-peen thing... People will probably frown on you for logging if, in their opinion, the sides are even. I've never really seen the use of it, myself. However, if you are in fact talking about the acceptability of the tactic in the eyes of CCP, I believe avoiding the log out countdowns in any way is not allowed, but logging off before combat or too avoid combat is.
T'Renn	Posted - 2007.01.26 22:39:00 - [38] Edited by: T''Renn on 26/01/2007 22:38:02 This makes me laugh. Weren't MDK the ones who were accused of spamming with convo requests during combat for a tactical advantage? Seems like these guys will stop at nothing to win. It's a sick commentary on the state of the player base in Eve. Pirates who cheat to win are the lowest of the low. --
Christopher Dalran	Posted - 2007.01.26 22:51:00 - [39] Originally by: T'Renn Edited by: T''Renn on 26/01/2007 22:38:02 This makes me laugh. Weren't MDK the ones who were accused of spamming with convo requests during combat for a tactical advantage? Seems like these guys will stop at nothing to win. It's a sick commentary on the state of the player base in Eve. Pirates who cheat to win are the lowest of the low. I dont remember who was doing that but i remember neing on the recieving end of that cheap trick.
Sun Win Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2007.01.26 22:52:00 - [40] Once, I saw a pirate dock in a station. I'm pretty sure that's cheating too. New to Eve? Learn to Fly - join channel: "Eve University" or read here
T'Renn	Posted - 2007.01.26 23:04:00 - [41] Originally by: Sun Win Once, I saw a pirate dock in a station. I'm pretty sure that's cheating too. I don't know if you're being funny or not. Avoiding combat is one thing. Bending game mechanics by logging is not. Logging in a safe spot in some system without aggression is one thing - but I think what the OP is getting at is another matter entirely. --
PCaBoo Newbies On Xstacy The Imperial Order	Posted - 2007.01.26 23:15:00 - [42] boohoo ________________________________ Caldari's are the Chosen people!
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2007.01.27 02:52:00 - [43] So wait you mean logging off because there are 40 cloaked ships in EOA-ZC waiting for you to jump in and wtf pwn your 10 man gang is cheating? I bet you if cows knew where that conveyor belt was going they would turn tail and run too
Deschenus Maximus Amarr In Articulo Mortis	Posted - 2007.01.27 03:09:00 - [44] So what I'm getting from all of this is that logging is ok if you're not targeted? Then I'll make sure to loggoffski if I ever fall into one of your gatecamps, mates, and you better not *** about it! FOR THE EMPEROR! Originally by:** Glenntwo you should be an anti pirate because you enjoy giving a player who is looking for an unfair fight (pirate) and extremely unfair fight (your friends show up and blow
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2007.01.27 03:16:00 - [45] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus So what I'm getting from all of this is that logging is ok if you're not targeted? Then I'll make sure to loggoffski if I ever fall into one of your gatecamps, mates, and you better not ***** about it! Logging is ok when your in space all by yourself of course it could be considered lame when your chasing some one and they warp to planet x and you follow them and they decide to log off midwarp then that is lame. But logging off in a system because your way out has been mega camped is ok in my opinion its a thine line of when its ok things will be better if you just stayed in space for 3 minutes when you log without an aggression flag
Deschenus Maximus Amarr In Articulo Mortis	Posted - 2007.01.27 03:54:00 - [46] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Logging is ok when your in space all by yourself of course it could be considered lame when your chasing some one and they warp to planet x and you follow them and they decide to log off midwarp then that is lame. But logging off in a system because your way out has been mega camped is ok in my opinion its a thine line of when its ok things will be better if you just stayed in space for 3 minutes when you log without an aggression flag Your post is a little convulated (or maybe I'm just dense) so could you answer this: why is it ok to log off when being chased/probed by a superior force but not when falling into a gatecamp set by a superior force? Originally by: Glenntwo You should be an anti pirate because you enjoy giving a player who is looking for an unfair fight an extremely unfair fight
Sun Win Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2007.01.27 04:02:00 - [47] Where this conversation went wrong is when the OPs argument transformed from "Logging is wrong" to "Logging after you wait out the 15 minute aggression timer instead of jumping into an obvious trap is wrong" The first part is a tactic that most people would agree is pretty lame (but hard to prevent because people can also get disconnected through no fault of their own and so CCP needs to strike a balance). The second part is just a good idea, or in the case of the description of the OP, just kind of a sign of overcautious pirating. New to Eve? Learn to Fly - join channel: "Eve University" or read here
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2007.01.27 04:06:00 - [48] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Logging is ok when your in space all by yourself of course it could be considered lame when your chasing some one and they warp to planet x and you follow them and they decide to log off midwarp then that is lame. But logging off in a system because your way out has been mega camped is ok in my opinion its a thine line of when its ok things will be better if you just stayed in space for 3 minutes when you log without an aggression flag Your post is a little convulated (or maybe I'm just dense) so could you answer this: why is it ok to log off when being chased/probed by a superior force but not when falling into a gatecamp set by a superior force? I actually got probed once while safepot hopping (WTF) but I warped in at 100km because I saw a buzzard on scanner instead of warping in at 0 (there was a vagabond waiting there for me lol). After warping to my next set of safes I logged and simply said F*ck so technically I took off running. Now the difference between what I did and the gate logoffski is I had 10+ safes to use minus the one that they probed out so I could've bored the pure gang to death just to get my wittle vexor while the gate logoffski is like pushing a baby into the street to distract some one from getting your precious precious shuttle BPO. Once you run into a properly setup gate camp your chances of surviving are slim but I have run the gaunlet many a time and luck just seems to be on my side I guess (except for that one time curse+flycatcher=owie)
Deschenus Maximus Amarr In Articulo Mortis	Posted - 2007.01.27 04:21:00 - [49] Marcus, from what I understand, they could not do what you could've done (bore them to death with SS-hoping) so they logged and went further than that by logging in with thier alts to make their ships insta disapear. That is not the same thing as logging off because you chose to do so instead of hopping around like a mouse being chased by a cat. Originally by: Glenntwo You should be an anti pirate because you enjoy giving a player who is looking for an unfair fight an extremely unfair fight
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2007.01.27 04:37:00 - [50] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Marcus, from what I understand, they could not do what you could've done (bore them to death with SS-hoping) so they logged and went further than that by logging in with thier alts to make their ships insta disapear. That is not the same thing as logging off because you chose to do so instead of hopping around like a mouse being chased by a cat. Well im saying cheatin your way out of what should be a no win situation shouldn't be much like how I was able to insta warp out once I made it to my next safe since I had no flag. Adding a timer to every one who logs makes things better in my opinion
Draugz Caldari	Posted - 2007.01.27 10:53:00 - [51] Edited by: Draugz on 27/01/2007 10:50:41 Originally by: Wesley Baird They know that, if they are aggro'd they jump around for 15m before logging....they know so much about it in fact, most know that if you log, than jump into another char on the same account you ship disappears instantly...you have less than 20 seconds to get these guys...its impossible literally... "by any means nessecary" comes to mind, i pirate for the profit and losing my ship is to be avoided "by any means nessecary". edit spelling.
Xendie Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.27 11:35:00 - [52] Originally by: Alowishus Edited by: Alowishus on 26/01/2007 20:48:04 So you went in with superior numbers/ships and came to the forums to whine like children when they wouldn't warp to their suicides? Yep, sounds like the Eve-O forums, alright. do you still fit 8 wcs on your geddons? Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent? Quote: jake sisko > its f-e's bob dev alt making lag
Kyozoku Mutiny.	Posted - 2007.01.27 12:45:00 - [53] So long as you can log to avoid combat people will use it. Blame the game mechanic not the players.
Dei Amarr	Posted - 2007.01.27 13:39:00 - [54] Originally by: Kyozoku So long as you can log to avoid combat people will use it. Blame the game mechanic not the players. Oh god yes, I forgot, people have no free will. If there's a glitch in the way the game works, some people automatically use it no matter what. They try to not use it, but it's inevitable, their hand just hits Ctrl + Q no matter what they try. They shout, "Someone stop my hand, I want to stay logged in and try to find a way out of this situation because that's the whole reason in playing a game - for the challenge it imposes!"
Shadow Grim	Posted - 2007.01.27 17:33:00 - [55] This is absolutly rediculus. If I'm 'cornered in a system' as the OP so blatently proposed and I'm not targetted or under a timer it would make no sense for me to sit and jump from safe to safe for hours on end in a stand still. I'm sorry, I have a life outside of Eve..work, wife, etc. If I was to sit and wait it out for hours on end until the opposing force got fed up just to 'be honorable' I would be going against every game ethic I can think of. Talk about boring lame ass gameplay. Oh yeah and I'm sure some would say I should go for it and attempt the suicide run to get out...well that's just retarded. Running is a viable, honorable tactic in any fight you know you can't win. Logging off after timers and not being targetted and taking a rest from the game for a while is simply smart gameplay. I'm sorry if you don't get your ships and pods for free...maybe this is the non-pirate mentality. Lets blob the hell out of a few pirates, corner them, and get ****ed when they don't hand over thier bounties and fittings. I'm sorry, your fighting pirates, outsmart them, bait them, whatever it takes to enter and hold a fight...don't get mad when they don't just lie down and die for the hell of it.
Neisen C'nelen	Posted - 2007.01.27 20:33:00 - [56] Edited by: Neisen C''nelen on 27/01/2007 20:31:57 You shoul;d go back and read what yopu just wrote: Originally by: Shadow Grim I'm sorry, your fighting pirates, outsmart them, Running them into a dead end system by denying them entrance to strategic gates. Originally by: Shadow Grim bait them, Same as above Originally by: Shadow Grim whatever it takes to enter and hold a fight...don't get mad when they don't just lie down and die for the hell of it. Bubbleling up the gate to KEEp them in the system to run them down and kill them. That sounds exactly what yer talking about to me..But, then they log off....wala, cheeter. So, now what? We did exacly that what ya said.
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2007.01.27 20:42:00 - [57] Originally by: Neisen C'nelen Edited by: Neisen C''nelen on 27/01/2007 20:31:57 You shoul;d go back and read what yopu just wrote: Originally by: Shadow Grim I'm sorry, your fighting pirates, outsmart them, Running them into a dead end system by denying them entrance to strategic gates. Originally by: Shadow Grim bait them, Same as above Originally by: Shadow Grim whatever it takes to enter and hold a fight...don't get mad when they don't just lie down and die for the hell of it. Bubbleling up the gate to KEEp them in the system to run them down and kill them. That sounds exactly what yer talking about to me..But, then they log off....wala, cheeter. So, now what? We did exacly that what ya said. Well it is either enter conered system and log at a safe or play the waiting game either way you'll get bored and take off.
Shadow Grim	Posted - 2007.01.28 08:34:00 - [58] Originally by: Neisen C'nelen Edited by: Neisen C''nelen on 27/01/2007 20:31:57 You shoul;d go back and read what yopu just wrote: Originally by: Shadow Grim I'm sorry, your fighting pirates, outsmart them, Running them into a dead end system by denying them entrance to strategic gates. Originally by: Shadow Grim bait them, Same as above Originally by: Shadow Grim whatever it takes to enter and hold a fight...don't get mad when they don't just lie down and die for the hell of it. Bubbleling up the gate to KEEp them in the system to run them down and kill them. That sounds exactly what yer talking about to me..But, then they log off....wala, cheeter. So, now what? We did exacly that what ya said. Nelson...take your own advice and read the entire post. You obviously didn't outsmart them if you allowed the timers to run out and did not actually have them in your grasp (targeted and scrammed). Having someone cornered in a system is not having someone locked down by any means. I'm sure this comes down to play style as has been stated many times regarding your posts. Perhaps you enjoy camping one spot for hours and hours where some of us prefer to play the game. Cornering a pirate in a system with one gate is far from outsmarting them. You have to go a couple steps farther and convince them to fight which you are still far from doing. Perhaps with more experience you will understand what everyone here is trying to explain to you. Cheers on your efforts but understand that until you adjust your understanding, you are going to continuously fall short of your goals. Eve is like chess there is always another move or strategy...you are simply narrowing yourself to one strategy and saying that if someone doesn't play into it, they are exploiting. Originally by: Neisen C'nelen Edited by: Neisen C''nelen on 27/01/2007 20:31:57 You shoul;d go back and read what yopu just wrote: Originally by: Shadow Grim I'm sorry, your fighting pirates, outsmart them, Running them into a dead end system by denying them entrance to strategic gates. Originally by: Shadow Grim bait them, Same as above Finally, if someone is on the run, you have not baited them as you so eloquently proposed above. Having effectivly baited someone, you would know as they would be willing to put up a fight. Do yourself a favor and don't so easily dismiss someones rebuttal with the following: Originally by: Neisen C'nelen Edited by: Neisen C''nelen on 27/01/2007 20:31:57 You shoul;d go back and read what yopu just wrote. I'm going to offer the following advice: please re-read your own posts for typos etc...I don't expect them to be perfect as my own are far from it...but look at the above and tell me that you didn't at least read through it once? This only shows a lack of respect on your part as my arguments have been specifically formed based on your own posts...you are only discrediting yourself by these statements. I think that you have some great potential if you can only see past your own narrow mindedness.
Neisen C'nelen	Posted - 2007.01.28 09:23:00 - [59] Originally by: Shadow Grim Nelson...take your own advice and read the entire post. You obviously didn't outsmart them if you allowed the timers to run out and did not actually have them in your grasp (targeted and scrammed). Having someone cornered in a system is not having someone locked down by any means. First, I don't agree that you need to have someone "locked and scramed" to constitute having them in my grasp. (especialy if that is the measure you are using for the validity of loging off in the middle of a pursuite) Originally by: Shadow Grim I'm sure this comes down to play style as has been stated many times regarding your posts. Second, Loging off in the middle of a fight/persuite does NOT quallify as a "play style". Up cloase and personal, or long range are examples of play style. Not droping conection to avoid the enevitable. Thats bad form, bad sportsmenship and plain cheeting. Originally by: Shadow Grim Perhaps you enjoy camping one spot for hours and hours where some of us prefer to play the game. Third, Bubbling a gate to catch a logging ganker usually entailes a set of ships INSIDE the system probing, and a set outside the gate and the bubble waiting. Hammer and anvil style. And just a side not, I will gladly sit on a gate while ships inside the system probe for a ship if it means the possability of poding a loging cheeter. Originally by: Shadow Grim Cornering a pirate in a system with one gate is far from outsmarting them. Fourth, Then why are they loging off? I mean, if they were smart enough NOT to get run into a dead end system, this discussion would probably not have come up now would it? Originally by: Shadow Grim You have to go a couple steps farther and convince them to fight which you are still far from doing. Fifth, No, I have NO obligation to convince them of anything. Game mechanics dictate that they are going to HAVE to fight unless they a, get past the gate and run, b, dock in a station or c, outlast the persuers. Not being able to do any of those, sometimes without even trying mind you, is when they get desprate and log off. Originally by: Shadow Grim Perhaps with more experience you will understand what everyone here is trying to explain to you. Sixth, Everyone here isn't trying to convice me of what you are. No, as a matter of fact, the majoraty of people I have talked to agree with my side of this argument. Make no mistake, just being louder on a subject, doesn't make you right. And I have noticed the decided lean toward the outlaws of EVE on the fourums.
Selena Kass	Posted - 2007.01.28 09:44:00 - [60] Either you're too stubborn to understand or incapable. There is nothing wrong with the game mechanics when they log off in space. The way you're thinking is if there was even a remote chance of catching the guy and he logs, then it's an exploit. Everytime you dock in a station, i'm going to petition you for exploiting. You obviously docked to avoid combat.

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