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Trek
Minmatar N.A.G.A Corporation
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Posted - 2007.01.27 12:28:00 -
[1]
In my opinion yes. All these silly over/undercuts of puny amounts turns the market war into a war about who has the time and patience to reload the market most times during the day. Before falling asleep I last night I were thinking about two ways to change this.
First one is brute force; do not allow an order within say 0.5% of another order for the same thing. Same price as another order should of course be ok. This would mean there could still be a competition down to 0.02 or 0.01 isk difference on trit-prices, but for a battleship the minimal price difference would be around 500k, a reasonable isk amount to over/undercut in my opinion.
This might not be the best solution since forcing stuff is never good in my opinion. However I think it would make the market prices move faster and become more dynamic. No more 0.01 price differences, the seller or buyer has to decide if he/she still can make a profit selling that battleship 500k cheaper or if it might be just as good keeping the current price. Oh and maybe, just maybe, it would reduce the server load ever so slightly with less people constantly reloading the market to see if they have been over/undercut.
My second thought is something that really already should be in Eve. Let me decice which order to buy from or sell to! If I want to buy a tech 2 ball of string for 50 000 instead of 49 999.97 let me do so and also give the isk to the person with the 50k order and not the one who happened to have a slightly cheaper order. I know I would pay gladly pay those 0.03 isk more just because of the stupid price set by the other seller and encourage smart pricing.
Advantages with this would be freedom for the player which is always good. Maybe I'm wrong and I'm the only one who is willing to pay the fractions of an isk more for an item, but if so that is my decition. People can still play their little game with 0.01 isk price changes ten times a minute if they want to, but I honestly believe the one with a nice round number would get the buissness. People don't really care for those "only 499.95" things in real life, do they? At least I hope not!
Well, I'd be glad to hear the input of others on this subject. --- My other ship is a Reaper
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Martosh Toma
Gallente Fraction Investment
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Posted - 2007.01.27 13:15:00 -
[2]
trade = non consential pvp action
adapt or die.
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Motivated Prophet
Zerodot Schools Power Corrupts Industry's
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Posted - 2007.01.27 14:21:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Trek People don't really care for those "only 499.95" things in real life, do they? At least I hope not!
Every great businessman since the beginning of recoded history would gladly save 5 cents per item. The only legitimate reason to be offended by "499.95" pricing is if you are experiencing some sort of misguided, paternalistic pity towards those who psychologically exaggerate the difference between that number and 5 cents more.
In the real world, I'll occasionally pay more per unit for something because it offers more convenience, or because I directly know the person to whom the money is going, or because I perceive the product to be different (buying at a farmer's market, versus buying at a supermarket). Eve offers, at best, only two of these factors, and since the market is anonymous, perhaps only one. Furthermore, since transactions are anonymous to all but the buyer and the seller, your proposed plan might very well elicit a chorus of "YEAH!"'s on the forums, followed by a large number of people wandering off to enjoy their (quantity * 0.05 isk) savings. Witness Wal-Mart sit-ins staged on Wal-Mart-bought lawn chairs sipping Wal-Mart-bought soda.
Market PvP is brutal, yes. But so is everything else in Eve. Feel free to reopen your website if prix fixe is more your game.
MP
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2007.01.27 14:23:00 -
[4]
"adept" is in: look for other, less popular items that suit your trading behaviour. if you can't keep up with this high paced pvp, you simply have to switch to another. or monopolize the item and buy all others out. or try another hub. or try lots of less populated hubs where you might sell less often, but the sheer amount of playces makes up for it or try something else altogether if you find out you can't compete in any of these markets
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Trek
Minmatar N.A.G.A Corporation
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Posted - 2007.01.27 14:45:00 -
[5]
Let me first explain that this has nothing whatsoever to to with NAGA or me beeing a member of that. This is a personal thing which annoys me, mostly when buying stuff of the market. I don't really do that much selling on my own.
Adapt or die? Come one, why is that the de facto answer in pretty much any thread? How about adapting to the thread content and post an intelligent reply instead?
As for the market pvp is brutal, yes it is and that is the reason I keep on playing the game! The market competition is the thing that makes this game stand out from the rest of the hack n' slash.
Anyhow, how would me being able to decide which order I buy from reduce the market competition? if anything it would increase it! I would be happy if the isk I spend buying something goes to the order I choose to buy from and not to the person undercuting with fractions of an isk.
--- My other ship is a Reaper
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Fred FourTwenty
The Praxis Initiative
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Posted - 2007.01.27 14:51:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Fred FourTwenty on 27/01/2007 14:50:40 If the rules put you at a disadvantage, then change the way you play not the rules. The market is fair, if you can't play the 0.01 isk game then you don't deserve the sale.
Quick summon the waambulance! Oh, it just got here.
Edit: url was ***'d out
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Fester Addams
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.01.27 14:57:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Motivated Prophet
Originally by: Trek People don't really care for those "only 499.95" things in real life, do they? At least I hope not!
Every great businessman since the beginning of recoded history would gladly save 5 cents per item. The only legitimate reason to be offended by "499.95" pricing is if you are experiencing some sort of misguided, paternalistic pity towards those who psychologically exaggerate the difference between that number and 5 cents more.
Actually the reason why you see prices of 199.99 or 499.95 is not that people will think, great I can save 0.01 or 0.05.
The reason is because of how our brains are wired, a price tag of 499.95 is just 0.05 away from 500 but we will always associate 499.95 with 400 and thus we will think "ooo thats cheap only 400somthing.
I agree with Trek on it being anoying that people are making prices at XXX.01 but like him I do not think that the market should be forced ither.
Im in full support of the second idea that if I choose to buy an item for 500 rather than 499.99 I should buy it from the order that has the price 500, not pay 500 to the player offering the item at 499.99.
Personally I tend to use the sledgehammer method when in a bidding war as those of you who have been in one with me will know, so you go 0.01 isk under me from 800k to 799.99 I will simply drop mine to 700k.
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2007.01.27 15:10:00 -
[8]
well - let's use Ballistic Control System II as an example no producer sells them for below 9mil and you even have to know where (somewhere in a weird corner of the empire) and when his batch is done. now add all the evil fees; there's simply no reseller willing to sell below 10.3mil for all those invested billions and the amount of work in form of travel to all hubs across the empire etc (400j a day - no problem). ergo - when someone is really bidding in steps of cents, most of the time he's scratching his profit zone. try harder by totally outbidding him (if you can) if he joins you down there, buy him out and hop up again.
unless you're scratching your own limits and you are bidding in cents yourself, which makes this thread pointless to begin with.
if you're just selling loot, leave a large enough margin so the traders can bring the stuff to the proper places
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Gileas
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Posted - 2007.01.27 15:10:00 -
[9]
It's always the same complaints from MMO crafters/traders. - "Whaah, everyone's selling stuff they got as loot for cheaper than I can craft it!" - "Whaah, soandso is crafting or performing some service cheaper than me or free so I can't get any business!" - "Whaah, everyone's undercutting me. Change the game mechanics so they can't!"
CCP added the .00 to prices after release. I very much doubt they'll do anything needlessly arbitrary like you suggest. --- Should CCP enact toll gates? Discuss it here! |
Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.01.27 15:22:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Roemy Schneider well - let's use Ballistic Control System II as an example no producer sells them for below 9mil and you even have to know where (somewhere in a weird corner of the empire) and when his batch is done. now add all the evil fees; there's simply no reseller willing to sell below 10.3mil for all those invested billions and the amount of work in form of travel to all hubs across the empire etc (400j a day - no problem). ergo - when someone is really bidding in steps of cents, most of the time he's scratching his profit zone. try harder by totally outbidding him (if you can) if he joins you down there, buy him out and hop up again.
unless you're scratching your own limits and you are bidding in cents yourself, which makes this thread pointless to begin with.
if you're just selling loot, leave a large enough margin so the traders can bring the stuff to the proper places
I agree completely. This is exactly how you should handle this kind of situation. Check out the Market History OCR Project here |
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Motivated Prophet
Zerodot Schools Power Corrupts Industry's
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Posted - 2007.01.27 16:05:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Fester Addams
Originally by: Motivated Prophet
Originally by: Trek People don't really care for those "only 499.95" things in real life, do they? At least I hope not!
Every great businessman since the beginning of recoded history would gladly save 5 cents per item. The only legitimate reason to be offended by "499.95" pricing is if you are experiencing some sort of misguided, paternalistic pity towards those who psychologically exaggerate the difference between that number and 5 cents more.
Actually the reason why you see prices of 199.99 or 499.95 is not that people will think, great I can save 0.01 or 0.05.
The reason is because of how our brains are wired, a price tag of 499.95 is just 0.05 away from 500 but we will always associate 499.95 with 400 and thus we will think "ooo thats cheap only 400somthing.
Reread what I wrote.
MP
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Trek
Minmatar N.A.G.A Corporation
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Posted - 2007.01.27 17:02:00 -
[12]
Ok let's go through this in order...
In what way does the fact that I can not decide who I sell to or buy from make the market fair? If anything it makes it unfair! I was planning to keep real life comparisons out of this, but since so many others likes to use them... I am not forced to buy something from shop A instead of shop B only because shop A is 0.01% cheaper! I can buy in shop B if I want to and give the money to them, not shop A.
Regarding people whose profit depends on the fractions of an isk when dealing with modules worth several millions, well I guess it is them who should "adapt or die" as is such a very popular way of expressing one self. Also, the minimum broker fee when changing an order is 10k isk iirc, meaning they need to sell one million units to recouperate from a 0.01 isk price change!
Oh and am I whining about people undercutting me? I can not see anything in my posts even close to whining. Train your reading comprehension to lvl 1 and you might see that I have already said that this is mainly (not only I admit) about me buying things! I never said to make it impossible to undercut!
I am also the first to admit (heck I even wrote it in my original post) that the 0.5% limit was probably a bad idea since it would reduce the freedom of players. What I am asking for is MORE freedom, freedom to chose who I want to do buissness with!
--- My other ship is a Reaper
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Ramblin Man
Empyreum
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Posted - 2007.01.27 17:33:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Trek Ok let's go through this in order...
In what way does the fact that I can not decide who I sell to or buy from make the market fair?
You honestly think people would buy from more expensive orders? Have you seen the way the BPC market works?
Quote: Regarding people whose profit depends on the fractions of an isk when dealing with modules worth several millions, well I guess it is them who should "adapt or die" as is such a very popular way of expressing one self. Also, the minimum broker fee when changing an order is 10k isk iirc, meaning they need to sell one million units to recouperate from a 0.01 isk price change!
Your math is borked. All they need to sell is an additional 10k/profit_per_unit in the time period between when they undercut and when they're undercut again.
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Creepin
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Posted - 2007.01.27 17:50:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Ramblin Man
Originally by: Trek Ok let's go through this in order..
In what way does the fact that I can not decide who I sell to or buy from make the market fair?
You honestly think people would buy from more expensive orders? Have you seen the way the BPC market works?
I will, for example. As much as I hate those merchants who use this freakin' "499,95" tactics in real life for these bastards are trying to fiddle with my subconsciousness, I also hate those who doing the same in Eve, but in Eve there's even more reason to hate them as they're not only try to deceive me by misusing my perception pattern but also spoil normal merchant's sells. So YES, I WILL buy for 50.000.000 instead of 49.999.995 if I will be given such a chance.
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Trek
Minmatar N.A.G.A Corporation
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Posted - 2007.01.27 18:03:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Ramblin Man
You honestly think people would buy from more expensive orders? Have you seen the way the BPC market works?
Well actually I do, but then I haven't really seen the BPC market. I may be wrong, but to be honest it doesn't matter at the moment since there is no possibility to buy the more expensive goods, since the money anyhow goes to the one selling the ball of string for 49 999.95 isk. All the talk about freedom to do whatever you want in the game and I can't even decide which order I want to buy from or sell to.
Quote:
Your math is borked. All they need to sell is an additional 10k/profit_per_unit in the time period between when they undercut and when they're undercut again.
Well you are right in a way, it depends on how long of a timeframe you consider. There are probably hundreds of ways to calculate time to get back the spent brokers fee. Bad example from me, can be used as "proof" for just about anything or nothing. --- My other ship is a Reaper
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Motivated Prophet
Zerodot Schools Power Corrupts Industry's
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Posted - 2007.01.27 18:24:00 -
[16]
The minimum broker fee for an order change is 100 isk.
Right now, the market is delightfully simple, and works the way you'd want. For instance, if I put in a region-wide buy order for 5,000 widgets @ 800 isk apiece, my order gets partially filled by the sell order for 500 widgets @ 750 isk apiece three jumps out (and that seller gets 800 isk apiece for his widgets, which might be suboptimal, but it depends who you are in this example, I suppose). This same piece of code is what causes you to buy from the lowest sell order, even when you click a higher-priced one.
If you'd really like to pay higher prices based on some sort of principle, feel free to set up your own private market with the contract system that adheres to any restrictions you would like. But I fail to see what goals (other than price motility, perhaps?) are ill-served by our current ability to undercut or overbid by 0.01 isk.
MP
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Proton Power
Amarr Power Corrupts Trading Inc Power Corrupts Industry's
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Posted - 2007.01.27 19:33:00 -
[17]
Very simple solution to this I found.
Instead of throwing up 100 of the same item, putup only a few of them. Next few hours they will probably have sold, if so put up a few more, if they didnt sell adjust the price.
Think about it this way, if you only put 2 items up, they will be the first 2 items bought for a while, and wont last long on the market. Put up 100 of the same item now you have everyone else saying your items will never sell and undercutting you. You may have sold the same 2, but now you have to adjust prices, and it will be lower than the guy that just undercut you. -----------------------------------------------
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=439797Cli |
Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2007.01.27 21:08:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Roemy Schneider on 27/01/2007 21:04:45 in short: i'd rather sell 5 within the next hour, get the profit for those, reinvest the money than waiting for all 100 items to be sold in maybe two weeks, if at all because the producer has thrown his next batch onto the market and some other bugger bought that because i couldn't because my order is still out there and now this other bugger is undercutting me! again!
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GC13
Caldari Derelik Trading Company
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Posted - 2007.01.27 23:17:00 -
[19]
The 0.01 ISK game is a very tedius game to play and it TICKS ME OFF. It also annoys me to hear people saying "well look, if you don't want to take the time to check and update all of your orders, just take time to check and update your orders" (i.e. it still takes time and tedium to put up smaller quantities).
Why can't the market work like Ebay? Tell it the highest and lowest unit price you want, and it will automatically make itself the lowest price on the market if it can without going below your floor.
--
Science and Industry guide plus A Newbie's Guide to Caldari Ships Eve and RPG blog |
Mirirar
Caldari Solstice Systems Development Concourse
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Posted - 2007.01.28 03:53:00 -
[20]
Eve is the ultimate free market -- and you're basically asking the government to step in and impose rules because you can't compete.
You deserve to go extinct.
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David H'Levi
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.01.28 08:34:00 -
[21]
Originally by: GC13 Why can't the market work like Ebay? Tell it the highest and lowest unit price you want, and it will automatically make itself the lowest price on the market if it can without going below your floor.
Then people would still undercut by 0.01 ISK, but after having destroyed the profit margin. It wouldn't be any better, it would just make us poorer.
We Recruit! |
David H'Levi
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.01.28 08:37:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Mirirar Eve is the ultimate free market -- and you're basically asking the government to step in and impose rules because you can't compete.
You deserve to go extinct.
Did you even read the OP? He has a decent idea, one which I feel is ultimately untenable, granted. Instead of just posting mantras, it might be helpful to contribute to the discussion in some way or stay silent.
After all, what are we paying these ******* brokers for?
We Recruit! |
SencneS
Amarr Keepers of the Holy Bagel
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Posted - 2007.01.28 10:20:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Trek My second thought is something that really already should be in Eve. Let me decice which order to buy from or sell to!
I too want this in the game but for a different reason. This game is all about getting ahead of your enemy. If you KNOW FOR A FACT, your enemy is supplying a particular item and an ally is supplying the same item but for 0.01 or even 500K isk more (Depending on price of item) I want to be able to buy from my ally.
Everyone says Market is PVP even the devs but for PVP you it sure doesn't have any way to limit who you can buy and sell to. I find it very funny that you could literally be suppling the enemy the ships/mods/ammo they use to kill you.
If the Market is PVP then where are my defensive ability? Where are my offensive abilities...
GIVE US the name/corp/alliance listing options for each item listed on the market and give us 100% control over who we buy from.
Lets run this scenario - (Forget my current corp/alliace) Let say I'm in a startup corp, we want to make friends with an alliace. We offer to buy everything we need from the an alliance in exchange we get a little protection or mining/ratting rights in their space. Open up a new way to make an alliance stronger? Doesn't this sound appealing to everyone?
Listing who is selling and who is buying, giving us the ability to deny say 5 corps, 2 alliances and 25 people buying rights (boycot), allow us to buy from a spesific person instead of "the cheapest" and then we'll talk about Market PVP and how cut throat it is. Because at the moment it's nothing more then people exploiting the system for their own gains.
EVE's Market is not PVP, real work market when a vendor can DENY people from buying from them. And the persons choice to buy an item for a more expensive price just because you like or want to support the company selling it, is way more PVP then anything this game and it's market has to offer.
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Send ISK to SencneS for good Kama! |
Trek
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.01.28 12:56:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Motivated Prophet The minimum broker fee for an order change is 100 isk.
oops you're right! Guess I don't change my orders little enough to really notice that!
Originally by: Motivated Prophet Right now, the market is delightfully simple, and works the way you'd want. For instance, if I put in a region-wide buy order for 5,000 widgets @ 800 isk apiece, my order gets partially filled by the sell order for 500 widgets @ 750 isk apiece three jumps out (and that seller gets 800 isk apiece for his widgets, which might be suboptimal, but it depends who you are in this example, I suppose). This same piece of code is what causes you to buy from the lowest sell order, even when you click a higher-priced one.
True, this is definetley the way I also believe it should work for the kind of orders described... Looks like immediate orders would need to be handled in an all separate way from other orders, perhaps this is why it has never been changed.
As for using the contract system, unfortunatley I think a buy-order would pretty much go unseen, and anyhow it would not be immediate filled. However you are making a valid point.
Originally by: Mirirar
Eve is the ultimate free market -- and you're basically asking the government to step in and impose rules because you can't compete.
You deserve to go extinct.
Good job! Looks like you actually might have gotten to the second paragraph in my first post! Thank you very much for your well thought out input as well.
Originally by: SencneS
GIVE US the name/corp/alliance listing options for each item listed on the market and give us 100% control over who we buy from.
Yeah this is something that has been asked for probably about as long as the thing I'm asking for! The only reason not to have this feature as well is, as I can see it, the time it would have taken to implement it. Maybe it's time for a market system rewrite too, ey CCP? --- My other ship is a Reaper
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Lyn Arinus
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Posted - 2007.01.28 15:08:00 -
[25]
The simplest solution to remove 0.01 ISK price sniping while incurring some real operation costs to businesses (market PvP is hardly cutthroat since no one can really lose ISK) is to deduct full broker fees for every order modified, instead of the current 100 ISK minimum with completely trivial charges for price increases. This will force market participants to price their orders closer to the true market rates they perceive and save time for everyone.
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GC13
Caldari Derelik Trading Company
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Posted - 2007.01.28 16:03:00 -
[26]
Originally by: David H'Levi Then people would still undercut by 0.01 ISK, but after having destroyed the profit margin. It wouldn't be any better, it would just make us poorer.
The idea isn't to remove undercutting, the idea is to do something about all the time you need to spend undercutting people who just undercut you.
Of course, there is a more complicated way it could be done, but it still revolves around removing the manual undercutting that takes no skill and involves no fun.
--
Science and Industry guide plus A Newbie's Guide to Caldari Ships Eve and RPG blog |
Apocrypha Gnostromo
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Posted - 2007.01.28 17:29:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Apocrypha Gnostromo on 28/01/2007 17:27:12 If it isn't broken, why fix it?
The only people who complain about this are those who lack the patience and tenacity to undercut the undercutters right back.
What you're really asking for is a way to compete on the market without being "annoyed" by other other people who play the market. I suspect a number of people siding with this idea are the same types who think gatecampers & pirates are "griefers" or some such nonsense.
Undercutting, even by 0.01 isk, is a perfectly acceptible tactic for driving out competition. If you lack the time, will, patience or tenacity to compete with people who employ such tactics, then perhaps it's time to find a different means of generating income.
______________ "They're planning an attack. It's like they're using our own jetcans to plan their attack." |
Sun Win
Mutually Assured Distraction
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Posted - 2007.01.28 19:11:00 -
[28]
There's two parts to your proposal.
One is the idea that there should be a limit to how small the bid increase can be.
Two is the market should be treated like a village market rather than like a commodities or stock market (let me choose by seller).
Of the two, the second idea is the more interesting, so I'll talk about the first idea first: -No matter what the minimum is that you set for the price increases, that will be the amount that the .01 bidders will choose to up the bids. Changing the minimum doesn't change the behaviour or address the problem. If you want the market to be more dynamic, you can cause this to happen by responding to small price increases/decreases with large ones.
I think it's hilarious that on the same page where you are complaining that there is a problem with .01 changes, there is another thread complaining that people are changing by too much! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=460410
For your second idea, there is some merit to the idea of a world where producers can brand themselves and their products, so the idea of making market interaction non anonymous is appealing. However, the capability for this already exists: it's in the trade channels, and contracts system. That's where the hand-to-hand selling goes. The rest of the market is intended to be a commodities market. We're buying and selling pork bellies from each other.
First, recognize that the ability to choose who you buy from on the market is something that CCP explicitly doesn't want as it breaks the various blocks that they have in place to prevent trial accounts from transferring ISK to other accounts.
Second, realize that the reason that more trading goes on in the commodities part of the market is that it's WAY EASIER. A Vulcan Autocannon II will work equally well whether I get it from some random dude anonymously, or if I buy it direct from my favourite NAGA seller, and I don't need to wait for the market to come online. It's already there, the guns are already delivered to my hangar, I just need to pay.
But there is still a place for hand to hand selling. I live in Low Sec and so while it's easy for me to transport modules to myself using courier missions, it's very hard for me to get ships out there. So I've made an arrangement with a local manufacturer, who transports ships to me whenever I put up orders. I pay well over market prices because of my situation. Perhaps Naga should look into supplying Pirates and other low sec status people who can't get the equipment that they need easily.
The new contracts situation put NAGA in an unfortunate position. They'd built up a brand for themselves, but had ended up with a business that was so successful that it began to kind of BE another market. You want to be a small time supplier with a name we can trust "Hey, buy local and organic Barrage M" but your success has grown you beyond that. So the contracts system is not big enough and the commodities system takes away the competitive advantage of of your name recognition.
I don't envy your position.
New to Eve? Learn to Fly - join channel: "Eve University" or read here |
Kazuo Ishiguro
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Posted - 2007.01.28 19:48:00 -
[29]
By all means allow undercutting by any margin people care to name, but with hundreds of orders it becomes rather tedious. A while back, I made a suggestion about this: in game commodity trading bots. People could then compete against each other by proxy without having to gain the upper hand just by being online all day.
More about trading bots... ------
So you're lagged out in Motsu/Saila/Aramachi, but you want that CNR? Do missions for another corp! |
Don Temujin
Mothers of EVE
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Posted - 2007.01.28 20:05:00 -
[30]
I hope I'm not derailing the thread by asking this, but could someone here summarize real quick the rules of the competitive pricing game in EVE ? I understand if you undercut someone by a tiny amount, you win the sales to the extent of your sell order, but if you undercut by a significant amount, what prevents someone from buying out your stock and putting it back on sale immediately ? That seems to foster a very slow evolution of prices over time, or did I miss something obvious ?
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