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Ruvin Out of Sight. 200	Posted - 2016.01.26 10:33:21 - [1] - Quote Hello everyone, It's the second time i want to share in public an investment idea, first one i did was about the "skins". So if you are familiar with Character bazaar you may have notice how the characters are priced, if a character is super focused in fighting skills, or is perfectly trained it is quite valuable. For example lets take this range 30-60m SP, if there is an indy character or with the skills spread all around the value is quite low, and if he is focused often the value can be double or more (we are intrested in the first cheap ones) With injectors coming all SP will be the same value (if used for injectors) so the SP used for mining are the same as the ones used for a Titan. That mean you can get cheap SP of the market right now. How cheap it depends only on you. For the sake of making it easier i was pricing 1m SP, you can find 1m SP at 300-400milions of isk (lower is extreemly hard) ( 150-200 per injector) If now plex costs 1.2b and in a month a character can train 1.5m sp, that means current price for 1m sp is around 800milions. So everything we get from market to be used in future is already profitable. Injectors cost doesnt really matter, i expect due to having HUGE pools of useless SP many (filled injectors) will be undervalued in comparison to current plex prices. But SP is not infinite (like isk) it still needs time to generate and "money" so those huge pools, sooner or later will be consumed . And when that happens what will define the cost of the sp i think the price of training them. I understand i repeated myself a bit i just wanted to explain all the steps. TLDR : Buy cheap characters from bazaar ( 150/200m per 500.000 SP) Wait SP pool (in EVE) to be consumed or "reduced atleast" When SP will be valued around plex prices it takes to get them (300-400) sell them in injectors . Opportunities multiply as they are seized.
Zerinia Alliance of Free Stars 57	Posted - 2016.01.26 11:07:49 - [2] - Quote 2.048m skill points/month with +5s and the right remap. I've seen people making trades on this - I deride them for it. I think there are going to be so many people who want to make a quick buck off their skill mistakes/unused toons or whatever relative to the buyers willing to front the aurum cost. Personally I've stopped with the bazaar all together as my particular business model there will, I believe, become unsustainable after the injectors.
Ruvin Out of Sight. 200	Posted - 2016.01.26 11:11:35 - [3] - Quote Zerinia wrote: 2.048m skill points/month with +5s and the right remap. I've seen people making trades on this - I deride them for it. I think there are going to be so many people who want to make a quick buck off their skill mistakes/unused toons or whatever relative to the buyers willing to front the aurum cost. Personally I've stopped with the bazaar all together as my particular business model there will, I believe, become unsustainable after the injectors. 2m SP is still 300m per 500.000 sp. which is double of what i payed for. Opportunities multiply as they are seized.
Zerinia Alliance of Free Stars 57	Posted - 2016.01.26 11:22:48 - [4] - Quote Ruvin wrote: Zerinia wrote: 2.048m skill points/month with +5s and the right remap. I've seen people making trades on this - I deride them for it. I think there are going to be so many people who want to make a quick buck off their skill mistakes/unused toons or whatever relative to the buyers willing to front the aurum cost. Personally I've stopped with the bazaar all together as my particular business model there will, I believe, become unsustainable after the injectors. 2m SP is still 300m per 500.000 sp. which is double of what i payed for. Yes - however Skill Points are a resource that were available before patch. I think the supply is going to be very large for the first few months and I think it will take a while even for half that to be profitable, much less training to extract. Which will be an upward spiral of joy on plea prices :).
Ruvin Out of Sight. 200	Posted - 2016.01.26 11:27:18 - [5] - Quote Zerinia wrote: Ruvin wrote: Zerinia wrote: 2.048m skill points/month with +5s and the right remap. I've seen people making trades on this - I deride them for it. I think there are going to be so many people who want to make a quick buck off their skill mistakes/unused toons or whatever relative to the buyers willing to front the aurum cost. Personally I've stopped with the bazaar all together as my particular business model there will, I believe, become unsustainable after the injectors. 2m SP is still 300m per 500.000 sp. which is double of what i payed for. Yes - however Skill Points are a resource that were available before patch. I think the supply is going to be very large for the first few months and I think it will take a while even for half that to be profitable, much less training to extract. Which will be an upward spiral of joy on plea prices :). Indeed i agree, tho with such a huge margin a few month's is little time on EVE standarts. Also the difference between mining and considering the minerals "free" here you are tied also to the injector, so buying injector and selling it filled for "same price + 1" isnt actually profitable so i expect people to do some basic math. Also i hope i'm wrong but i expect plex price to rise by quite a substantial margin which also increases the profits. Opportunities multiply as they are seized.
Cixi 17	Posted - 2016.01.26 12:18:34 - [6] - Quote This is a good idea most characters are underpriced right now
HeXxploiT Little Red X 214	Posted - 2016.01.26 19:54:47 - [7] - Quote Smart money was buying poorly trained toons on the cheap months ago.
Ruvin Out of Sight. 200	Posted - 2016.01.26 22:22:58 - [8] - Quote Cixi wrote: This is a good idea most characters are underpriced right now A good example : https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=465018 111 mil effective SP for 50 B/O, this is 225 mil ISK per 500k SP. At 300mil ISK per 500k SP (actual rate) that would be a little more than 16b profit Ruvin wrote: Also i hope i'm wrong but i expect plex price to rise by quite a substantial margin which also increases the profits. Saddly I don't think you are wrong on this point i found cheaper even yesterday 150-200 for 500k SP. I can link a thread from yesterday i bought last one : 165 for 500k sp. Opportunities multiply as they are seized.
Jerry T Pepridge Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC. 659	Posted - 2016.01.26 23:26:23 - [9] - Quote HeXxploiT wrote: Smart money was buying poorly trained toons on the cheap months ago. except SP is like mined minerals now. Smart money was aurum tokens. @JerryTPepridge
Sabriz Adoudel Move along there is nothing here 5662	Posted - 2016.01.27 03:38:07 - [10] - Quote So much of this market comes down to how many trillionaires are willing to spend literally hundreds of billions of ISK making their main character 'perfect' by bulk using skill injectors (especially with the increased efficiency from the original proposal). As for me - I'm positioning toward liquidity over the next months. I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
Jerry T Pepridge Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC. 664	Posted - 2016.01.27 03:46:08 - [11] - Quote Sabriz Adoudel wrote: So much of this market comes down to how many trillionaires are willing to spend literally hundreds of billions of ISK making their main character 'perfect' by bulk using skill injectors (especially with the increased efficiency from the original proposal). As for me - I'm positioning toward liquidity over the next months. Agree with all but liquidity, please tell us why m8? absolute worst case put it in pyerite. are u saving for citadel bp? also the "Buying one injector" to be able to fly the ship in fleet crowd, and the buy bad characters & make them good crowd. Aurum is the bottleneck, nothing else. @JerryTPepridge
Edwin Rothbard Interstellar Arbitrage 28	Posted - 2016.01.27 05:35:16 - [12] - Quote Each of my accounts have 5,500 aurum CCP handed out years ago. Finally there will be something in the store worth buying. Rothbard's Casino
Mephiztopheleze Republic University Minmatar Republic 483	Posted - 2016.01.27 06:35:19 - [13] - Quote I doubt we'll see huge numbers of injectors hitting the market. Most folk with some redundant SP kicking around will probably use it for themselves rather than selling it off. Those with multiple high SP characters (eg, the people in this alleged "huge" pool of SP) have plenty of other ways to generate ISK. Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
ZmajOgnjeniVuk Naliao Inc. Test Alliance Please Ignore 0	Posted - 2016.01.27 08:53:10 - [14] - Quote Edwin Rothbard wrote: Each of my accounts have 5,500 aurum CCP handed out years ago. Finally there will be something in the store worth buying. share pls
Ruvin Out of Sight. 200	Posted - 2016.01.27 09:05:32 - [15] - Quote Mephiztopheleze wrote: I doubt we'll see huge numbers of injectors hitting the market. Most folk with some redundant SP kicking around will probably use it for themselves rather than selling it off. Those with multiple high SP characters (eg, the people in this alleged "huge" pool of SP) have plenty of other ways to generate ISK. Why not for a good price based on plex-->aur conversion + a nice markup i would sell plenty those aswell. Have more then enough plex to convert in aurum. Opportunities multiply as they are seized.
Sabriz Adoudel Move along there is nothing here 5663	Posted - 2016.01.28 03:10:12 - [16] - Quote Jerry T Pepridge wrote: Sabriz Adoudel wrote: So much of this market comes down to how many trillionaires are willing to spend literally hundreds of billions of ISK making their main character 'perfect' by bulk using skill injectors (especially with the increased efficiency from the original proposal). As for me - I'm positioning toward liquidity over the next months. Agree with all but liquidity, please tell us why m8? absolute worst case put it in pyerite. are u saving for citadel bp? also the "Buying one injector" to be able to fly the ship in fleet crowd, and the buy bad characters & make them good crowd. Aurum is the bottleneck, nothing else. I have my reasons. I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4463	Posted - 2016.01.28 04:06:22 - [17] - Quote Sabriz Adoudel wrote: Jerry T Pepridge wrote: Sabriz Adoudel wrote: So much of this market comes down to how many trillionaires are willing to spend literally hundreds of billions of ISK making their main character 'perfect' by bulk using skill injectors (especially with the increased efficiency from the original proposal). As for me - I'm positioning toward liquidity over the next months. Agree with all but liquidity, please tell us why m8? absolute worst case put it in pyerite. are u saving for citadel bp? also the "Buying one injector" to be able to fly the ship in fleet crowd, and the buy bad characters & make them good crowd. Aurum is the bottleneck, nothing else. I have my reasons. Okay, but many of the in game markets for items from the New Eden Store are so illiquid they simply do not exist--i.e. no sellers no buyers. Maybe SP injectors will be different...depends on that AUR price though. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
Purple Helmet Big O Logistics 0	Posted - 2016.02.03 13:37:37 - [18] - Quote Will the ISK value of these injectors increase over time like PLEX or decrease over time as the market starts being liquidated by them as they arn't really an investment item such as PLEX.
Ruvin Out of Sight. 201	Posted - 2016.02.03 15:57:27 - [19] - Quote i wasnt saying anything about injectors, i was saying sp was a good thing to go for. Opportunities multiply as they are seized.
MrsPotatoHead State War Academy Caldari State 3	Posted - 2016.02.03 16:18:43 - [20] - Quote I think this heavily relies on people making alts and new players joining the game. As soon as players over 5mil start injecting they won't consider the injector to hold as much value as the ISK/SP ratio is 20% less. I think once the initial bumps are out of the way the price will drop. I could be looking at it all the wrong way, but hey it's just my 2 cents.
voetius Quiet Days in Clichy 407	Posted - 2016.02.03 18:07:54 - [21] - Quote Purple Helmet wrote: Will the ISK value of these injectors increase over time like PLEX or decrease over time as the market starts being liquidated by them as they arn't really an investment item such as PLEX. Good question and I wish I knew the answer. If the main source of injectors comes from plex being converted to aurum then they should track the plex price and maybe influence it upwards as well. Other things to consider, as Edwin pointed out, are the accumulated AUR on accounts that have been around through the Summer of Rage and still have their 5500 per account. There is also AUR tokens to consider as CCP may decide to bundle these with starter packs, or as part of plex packages, etc., so anything could happen here and that would have a dilutative effect on tracking plex prices. Like Sabriz, I'm staying cash heavy at the moment as I think traders are going to come out on top however things fall out as they are there to arbitrage differences. Although everything depends on how this is implemented, notably the AUR price for an injector and how it is or isn't taken up by the players.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4652	Posted - 2016.02.06 05:24:39 - [22] - Quote At the recently announced price...I doubt you can. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
Ruvin Out of Sight. 201	Posted - 2016.02.09 13:28:07 - [23] - Quote So far so good, prices are around 200 300 milions for 500.000 sp . I spent 130 -180. Training cost of 500.000 with curent plex prices are 300.000 (with perfect remap and +5) Opportunities multiply as they are seized.
Gen Saint No Fun Entreprise 0	Posted - 2016.02.10 01:38:02 - [24] - Quote Lets crush some numbers about SP farming for ISK, According to my understanding of the process, as far as the numbers are atm, this is not a viable option unless you fuel your SP farming account with an other toon either with ISK or USD to pay for the sub fees. Proof (?): Assuming: - today's approximative market data are used for calculation purposes - Plex pruchase price is almost equal to Plex selling price (average between sell and buy order) - SP extractor pruchase price is almost equal to SP Extractor selling price (average between sell and buy order) - SP injector pruchase price is almost equal to SP Injector selling price (average between sell and buy order) - Annual sub. Fees - Extractor are purchased in bundle with NO special promo 10 extractor = 10 000 AUR - Assuming the ISK value of extractor are given by the AUR cost at 800 AUR, we can calculate the ISK value of SP Extractor at 1000 AUR (assuming 300M ISK / 800 AUR) - all training is done with +5 / +5 implant and maximal remap (2700 SP/h / 24h / 30 days) - CCP bills annual sub on a 360 days rotation - the SP farming toon is over 5,5M SP - Skill extractor extract 500K SP per run Data: Plex ISK value...............1270.........M ISK Montly sub. Fees............10.95.......USD SP Extractor AUR Value1000........AUR SP Extractor ISK Value...375.........M ISK.........(300 M ISK market value if purchased at 800 AUR) SP Injector ISK Value......660.........M ISK We know that: - 1 month of training = 10.95USD = 1 PLEX = 3500 AUR = 1270 M ISK = 1944M SP Calculations - AUR approach: - on year base we find that: i can learn :........................................................2700 SP/h x 24h x 360 days...............= 23328000SP To extract all the SP in 1 year i need:..............Euclidean division (23328000 / 500K).= 46................extractors To purchase all extractors needed, i must get:46 extractors x 1000 AUR / extractor..= 46000.........AUR To get all the AUR needed, i must get:.............46 000 AUR / 3500 AUR/PLEX ..........= 13.14..........PLEX (14 rounded up) To fuel learning alt, sub fees paied:.................12 months x 1 PLEX/month ................= 12...............PLEX - wich lead us : i need to purchase..........................................................................................................= 26................Plex each plex cost 1270M ISK.................................26 PLEX x 1270M ISK........................= -33020.........M ISK I'ill sell the injectors at 660M ISK........................46 injectors x 660M ISK......................= 30360.........M ISK .....................................................................................................................Total income:......-2660.........M ISK / year Calculations - ISK approach: - on year base we find that: i can learn :.......................................................2700 SP/h x 24h x 360 days................= 23328000........SP To extract all the SP i can in 1 year i need:.....Euclidean division (23328000 / 500K)..= 46...................extractors To purchase all extractors needed, i must get:46 extractors x 375 M ISK / extractor..= 17250............M ISK To fuel learning alt, sub fees paied:.................12 months x 1 PLEX/month..................= 12.................PLEX - wich lead us : i need to purchase...........................................................................................................= 12.................Plex each plex cost 1270M ISK...............................12 PLEX x 1270M ISK..........................= -15240...........M ISK Purchased extractors.....................................................................................................= -17250...........M ISK I'ill sell the injectors at 660M ISK......................46 injectors x 660M ISK.......................= 30360............M ISK .................................................................................................................. Total income:......-2130.............M ISK / year In conclusion, it is not a profitable operation since you must fuel the farming account with approximatively 2200M ISK per year. Did i miss something? Is my undersatnading of the situation correct? According to calculation, as soon as the ISK value of SP injectors reach approximatively 720 M ISK, the SP farming operation breaks even ISK-wise, assuming the ISK value of PLEX doenst increase. After few simulations, from this point, if the ISK value of PLEX, injector and extractors increase at the same rate, the operation will always breaks even.
Vibiana Frontier Trading Company 41	Posted - 2016.02.10 05:07:57 - [25] - Quote your calc for 1000 AUR extractor, wich is stupid, as 800 option exists. after adjustment of (accrding to your calcs) (375m-300m)*46 = +3450 +3450 -2130 +1320 + Free to Play EVE / alt account
N00B-SAIB0T MK Financial 24	Posted - 2016.02.10 23:00:38 - [26] - Quote Mephiztopheleze wrote: I doubt we'll see huge numbers of injectors hitting the market. Most folk with some redundant SP kicking around will probably use it for themselves rather than selling it off. That would be me. I have an unfocused older character with 40 million SPs. I have a dilemma though. I need 69 extractors at a cost of ~20 billion if I want to extract 34.5 million out of that alt. Trying to determine if I can be happy with using half of the points for this character and selling off the other half. Preferrably I'd love to keep them all and I can afford to spend 20 billion, but parting with that much at once isn't easy. It's a big price tag, using the SPs on yourself, so hard to say how many would do it.
Sabriz Adoudel Move along there is nothing here 5674	Posted - 2016.02.11 11:00:54 - [27] - Quote People are talking about running an account solely for SP harvesting. This is not the efficient way to create skill injectors. The efficient way is for people who have alt accounts for other reasons that contain perfect skilled characters (for their assigned roles). Cyno alts; spy alts; accounts with 3 PI characters; accounts with three gank characters; accounts with a dedicated bump alt; booster alts; production alts. A PLEX in normal use generates two things - a month of skill training, and a month of game access. For these accounts the SP are a waste product that can now be sold. I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
iBLACK MAMBA Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation 8	Posted - 2016.02.11 12:53:21 - [28] - Quote Ruvin is spot on. But people are realising this and the time of bargains in the Character Bazaar has passed. I personally have made over 100bn ISK in pure profit in the last two days, due to exactly what Ruvin described. I started buying undervalued characters a few months ago. I didn't care what they were trained in, it was a pure ISK to SP conversion ratio that I was interested in. Got some great bargains. Now the good times are over, but for those of us who speculated and bought up terrible characters with lots of SP cheaply, the last few days have been an absolute bonanza. I can now afford a titan AND a titan sitting alt, all from the pure profit of c.70bn total investment (characters and plex from the market to convert to AUR to get the extractors). I still keep an eye on the character sell forum, but the good times are over. You might get a bit of profit if you're lucky.
Noblefist stargazer EvE industri 3	Posted - 2016.02.11 13:03:55 - [29] - Quote Purple Helmet wrote: Will the ISK value of these injectors increase over time like PLEX or decrease over time as the market starts being liquidated by them as they arn't really an investment item such as PLEX. i did buy plex last night start on 100b when i was done transfor to AUR 5 hours work 1 trill now the price is going down ..an not worth it anymore... buy plax transfor to AUR but x10 ext sell = profit = perfect marked skill...
Ruvin Out of Sight. 202	Posted - 2016.02.11 15:25:34 - [30] - Quote but plex is 3500 aur , so 3 plex is 9500 aur. so its 2.5 plex for 10 extractors. 10 extractors are 3b. 2.5 plex is 1250 + 1250 +625 3.1b. were is the profit ? Opportunities multiply as they are seized.
Aptenodytes Reckless Abandon 201	Posted - 2016.02.11 16:10:16 - [31] - Quote 1 PLEX worth of training makes 2 mil SP, so 500k SP costs 0.25 PLEX to create. 800 AUR costs 800/3500 PLEX = 0.23 PLEX. => Total cost to create an injector is 0.48 PLEX. As long as injector prices are above 0.48x the PLEX price, there's the profit. Currently 0.48 PLEX = 610m so as long as prices stay above that, it's profitable.
Ruvin Out of Sight. 202	Posted - 2016.02.11 16:32:28 - [32] - Quote he said : buy plax transfor to AUR but x10 ext sell = profit i dont see profit there . he starts with 3.2 ends up with 3 . As for your math, thats ideal scenario with plex cost of what 1250 ? also there is broker fee and i think some other small costs that add up. To consider something worth it i would want atleast a few % of profits .... 650 670 with current prices would be acceptable . Opportunities multiply as they are seized.
Aptenodytes Reckless Abandon 201	Posted - 2016.02.11 16:47:13 - [33] - Quote Ruvin wrote: As for your math, thats ideal scenario with plex cost of what 1250 ? I kept the formula as 0.48 PLEX precisely because the price of PLEX changes. If the price of injectors is more than 0.48x the price of PLEX, it's profitable. Currently if a PLEX costs 1250m then the injectors need to cost 600m to break even. If PLEX rise to 1.5b then injectors would need to rise to 720m. Yes broker fees adds a small % to your costs, assuming you don't have a decently trained trade alt. But you can reduce your other costs with various tricks... which I won't share here
iBLACK MAMBA Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation 9	Posted - 2016.02.11 17:26:12 - [34] - Quote Ruvin wrote: he said : buy plax transfor to AUR but x10 ext sell = profit i dont see profit there . he starts with 3.2 ends up with 3 . . You buy 16 plex (current price: 20bn) You convert to AUR You get 70 extractors You sell the extractors for 21bn. 1bn instant profit. Take about 5 minutes.
Ruvin Out of Sight. 202	Posted - 2016.02.11 20:08:13 - [35] - Quote I only wish i had more liquid isk 1 month ago ....i actually expected this to be a lot "worse" i mean i expected LOADS of undervalued SP at the start. But the price got stable from day 1. That was my only mistake. And everything i invested just doubled, no effort no math, just lots of clicking .... after using 60 extractors you start of getting tired. My only regret is not doing it on bigger scale, a collateralized loan with 10 15% return would've netted 80 85% profit. Well, until next time. Opportunities multiply as they are seized.
Chameleopardis Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 0	Posted - 2016.02.12 11:05:00 - [36] - Quote Character bazaar will die. First the prices in bazaar will adjust to skill injector prices in game and after that it just dies. Why? Because there is absolutely no reason for buying character which name and history you cannot touch.
Dr Mibbles State War Academy Caldari State 15	Posted - 2016.02.12 11:08:32 - [37] - Quote I think there will still be a role for the Character Bazaar, just a much reduced one. People with SP rich chars, but low on ISK who cannot afford the initial investment in extractors, for example. They will need the SP resellers to buy their chars off them. But margins will be slim.
Ruvin Out of Sight. 202	Posted - 2016.02.12 11:34:40 - [38] - Quote Chameleopardis wrote: Character bazaar will die. First the prices in bazaar will adjust to skill injector prices in game and after that it just dies. Why? Because there is absolutely no reason for buying character which name and history you cannot touch. the price will be a lot "worse for the buyers" Focused chars are less meaningfull. But dont forget diminushing returns, those can keep the bazaar competitive as an alternative. Opportunities multiply as they are seized.

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