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Benco97 Gallente Multiverse Corporation	Posted - 2007.01.28 03:04:00 - [1] Now, myself I have no problem either way about logging off in battle, combat these days is something I rarely see and even then i'm no longer the aggressor, however, there is a clear divide in the community about logging off to escape. Some call it a tactic against other methods of play, some call it cheating and none can decide on what to do about it. I realise there are other threads like this, I realise the risks of posting this and yet I am still doing so.. why? Because after a certain amount of time, as a thread gets older and longer it gets stuck in a rut where certain parties become most powerful and as such opinions are forced upon others, this is a churning of the idea-mass, a stirring of the miasmic thoughts of the forum, an attempt at some fresh perspectives with even ground. Still, if you deem it trite and unsuitable then by all means lock or delete. I can see a harsh way out of this, harsh but effective. On logging, no matter when, no matter what the reason or method, your ship remains in space for an extended period of time. Pro-loggers will claim this isn't fair and forces them to fight. Anti-loggers will rejoice and relish the thought of easy pickings. The neutral parties will object on the grounds that PvE becomes more dangerous where CTDs and other random acts of the gods are concerned. In the end it results in everyone loosing more ships due to CTDs. It'll stop the logging in combat, it'll casue more deaths due to unforseen circumstances. If you can agree to those terms then perhaps it's an option. I realise that no matter what I say I AM Biased, by now it should be evident that I am against logging in combat despite claims made to the contrary at the start. It's a confusing and difficult subject. So, in lue of creating multiple choice answers please write here how you think this situation should be remedied or even if it should be remedied at all. Thank you. "MY GOD KEEP THIS AWAY FROM BENCO97!!!!!" - Constantine Arcanum
Ice Conch	Posted - 2007.01.28 03:10:00 - [2] the next patch, ctrl + q should be rebound to eject from your ship
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2007.01.28 03:12:00 - [3] Edited by: HankMurphy on 28/01/2007 03:10:06 its been said a thousand times. Bubbles can only exist in no sec. No sec = NOT SAFE SPACE Dont want to die in bubble, dont go there. All they need to do is make it so you dont enter warp in a bubble, no matter if your online or offline. Its risky space, you are taking a risk entering it. We all do. We all have PCs that sometimes have issues, ISPs that perform maintenances at odd times, etc etc etc etc etc.... deal with it or stay in "safe space" (hmmm... wonder why they call it that? ****ing morons ) Its not up for debate. Its not an epic issue CCP has yet to decide on. They only need to get around to fixing it along w/ many other bugs. CCP will fix it. They have addressed its a huge problem. Anyone preaching to the otherwise are only providing evidence on why they should cancel their EvE subscription and go play Hello Kitty Island Adventure.
Kunming Outcasts	Posted - 2007.01.28 03:28:00 - [4] Originally by: HankMurphy Edited by: HankMurphy on 28/01/2007 03:10:06 its been said a thousand times. Bubbles can only exist in no sec. No sec = NOT SAFE SPACE Dont want to die in bubble, dont go there. All they need to do is make it so you dont enter warp in a bubble, no matter if your online or offline. Its risky space, you are taking a risk entering it. We all do. We all have PCs that sometimes have issues, ISPs that perform maintenances at odd times, etc etc etc etc etc.... deal with it or stay in "safe space" (hmmm... wonder why they call it that? **ing morons ) Its not up for debate. Its not an epic issue CCP has yet to decide on. They only need to get around to fixing it along w/ many other bugs. CCP will fix it. They have addressed its a huge problem. Anyone preaching to the otherwise are only providing evidence on why they should cancel their EvE subscription and go play Hello Kitty Island Adventure. I sorta agree with this, though you're forgetting that CTDs happen no matter where you are.. Personally I will never logoffski, but thats cause I wanna experience the game with whatever it has to offer. If losing was not so painful EVE wouldnt be so trilling and exciting for me.. or maybe I just gotta lose a couple bils before I get smarter I do think "Logoffski" is a problem in EVE but I also believe that those who logoff will never learn what defeat teaches one. Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.**
Rustimon Vortex. Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.28 04:10:00 - [5] I like it. :]
Alski Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.28 04:39:00 - [6] As someone who suffers the occasional disconnect probably at least once a week, I say no, things that are beyond my control shouldn’t make me suffer in game. IMO all that needs to happen is... -logoff in bubble you stay there -logoff while warp scramed you stay there -logoff after being shot at you e-warp and stay in space for 5-15 minutes problem solved. CCP will not make you stay in space permanently after a disconnect because they know what it will do to there petition system if everyone with a less than completely stable PC AND Internet connection starts losing ships and petitions them for reimbursement due to situations beyond there control, ESP. since in every other on-line game out there such acts of god do not incur any penalty. Fix the aggression system, that’s ALL that needs to happen. -
Shadow Lightbringer Nightghosts Inc	Posted - 2007.01.28 04:41:00 - [7] I personally like Benco97's method because having a harsh solution will separate the men from the boys. Logging to avoid risk IMHO is particularly lame and logging out in space in general should have risks. Safe haven has always been stations and I feel that if you want to log out safely, dock.
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2007.01.28 04:43:00 - [8] Originally by: Alski As someone who suffers the occasional disconnect probably at least once a week, I say no, things that are beyond my control shouldnÆt make me suffer in game. IMO all that needs to happen is... -logoff in bubble you stay there -logoff while warp scramed you stay there -logoff after being shot at you e-warp and stay in space for 5-15 minutes problem solved. QFT
CrestoftheStars Deviance Inc	Posted - 2007.01.28 04:49:00 - [9] Edited by: CrestoftheStars on 28/01/2007 04:47:39 Originally by: Alski As someone who suffers the occasional disconnect probably at least once a week, I say no, things that are beyond my control shouldnÆt make me suffer in game. IMO all that needs to happen is... -logoff in bubble you stay there -logoff while warp scramed you stay there -logoff after being shot at you e-warp and stay in space for 5-15 minutes problem solved. CCP will not make you stay in space permanently after a disconnect because they know what it will do to there petition system if everyone with a less than completely stable PC AND Internet connection starts losing ships and petitions them for reimbursement due to situations beyond there control, ESP. since in every other on-line game out there such acts of god do not incur any penalty. Fix the aggression system, thatÆs ALL that needs to happen. agree with you here. although i think something have to be done about the scramblers, 100% proventing a person from jumping forever is to much, put an exstra timer on the time it takes to get alignet and up in speed, the exstra timer should be put on considering the size of the scrambler and the sizeof the ship.. ___________________________________________ come on.. stop thinking about YOU. and start thinking about All of us... how do we get a more fun and enjoyable game for all of us.
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express	Posted - 2007.01.28 08:57:00 - [10] The problem is that the game has no counter to a Warp Bubble. It is one of only a handful of things that have no counter. It is this lack of a game counter that has gotten some to take up the ctrl + q to escape. Not everyone uses it but a lot do. If the devs provided a reliable means through ship modules, rigs and/or skills that would enable you to escape from a warp bubble and a warp disruptor probe then I think we'd see less folks using the ctrl + q. If you rebound the key folks would rebind it or just learn the new binding it would only at best be a temporary solution. Galactic Express Recruitment Post
Malcanis	Posted - 2007.01.28 10:22:00 - [11] "If the devs provided a reliable means through ship modules, rigs and/or skills that would enable you to escape from a warp bubble and a warp disruptor probe then I think we'd see less folks using the ctrl + q." Yeah, some kind of module or set of modules that would say help you get out of range in only a few seconds. Or maybe some module that countered warp scramblers directly? Sarcasm apart, I agree that bubbles shouldn't have infinite strength. A warp disruption strength that declines with distance from the unit might be interesting. Eg: Small bubble: 0-4000m: +3, 4001-8000m: +2, 8001-12000m: +1 Medium bubble: 0-4000m: +5 ... 16001-20000m: +1 Large bubble: 0-4000m: +8 ... 28001-32000m +1 Ships with WCS would penetrate further in to the bubble when warping, and would have less distance to travel out when jumping in.
Freman	Posted - 2007.01.28 10:41:00 - [12] I'm not a PvPer, but i do get lost connection allot (specially when i have 2-3 accounts running), to get penalised for something out of my control is wrong, end of. But to counter the logoffski people, i would say if you log off/lose connection with in 20km of another ship (friend or foe) you should have at least a 10 min timer before your ship leaves the game even if you don't have aggresion, but it should still warp off unless your in a bubble or a POS.
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers	Posted - 2007.01.28 11:39:00 - [13] Originally by: Alski As someone who suffers the occasional disconnect probably at least once a week, I say no, things that are beyond my control shouldnÆt make me suffer in game. IMO all that needs to happen is... -logoff in bubble you stay there -logoff while warp scramed you stay there -logoff after being shot at you e-warp and stay in space for 5-15 minutes problem solved. CCP will not make you stay in space permanently after a disconnect because they know what it will do to there petition system if everyone with a less than completely stable PC AND Internet connection starts losing ships and petitions them for reimbursement due to situations beyond there control, ESP. since in every other on-line game out there such acts of god do not incur any penalty. Fix the aggression system, thatÆs ALL that needs to happen. From my understanding that is already the case, if you log off after being shot you stay in space for 15mins.(even if you were shot/shot something 14m59s ago, the timer resets to the full 15mins.) And iirc if you get scrammed and then log off your ship won't warp off. I'm not sure how it is with bubbles, not enough experience with them. However that is not the log off issue... The log off issue is when people log off before they get shot(or have no aggression timer running). If they log before any aggression, bubbles, scramblers and any aggression towards them is completely ignored and they will dissapear within a minute(whether they E-warp or not). Changing this behaviour so that even if people are logged off that any aggression timer will start when they get attacked is what is needed. Crystal-Slave, that way? Potential solution to the current Recon cloak and cyno bug
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.28 13:30:00 - [14] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 28/01/2007 13:33:03 Originally by: Alski .... IMO all that needs to happen is... .... -logoff while warp scramed you stay there .... Lose the ship (in PvP o PvE) because the usual moron in Alaska or Peking want to ping all the PC connected to your ISP. Petition CCP for reimboursement 2 times every month (the average frequency of ship lost because you are warp scrambled and get DC, based on PvE, if you don't warp after accidental DC) . 150.000 users = 300.000 peritions. Waith till EVE-Earth in 2047. Add the DC at gates, where for the server you have jumped and for your PC you are waiting for passage till you get DC for time elapsed. (lost data packet?)
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War	Posted - 2007.01.28 13:48:00 - [15] Edited by: Plutoinum on 28/01/2007 13:46:26 Basic concept for a regular logoff should be a logoff timer that runs down. Any action by yourself or an attacker cancels it. - If you log out that way, your ship should be safe. - if you ctrl-q or crash, your ship shouldn't be safe for an extended period of time, which forces you to log back in. - the logout-timer can't be activated, while still cloaked at the gate after jumping through. The rest are details, like if ctrl-q'ing/cdt'ing lets your ship stay at its place for that extended period of time or if it warps out to a probable place for that time. Surely it shouldn't warp out off bubbles. ______________ Originally by: Patch86 Combat in EVE is non-consensual. Unlike most games, EVE, by design, forces you to be ready for violence everywhere-even hi-sec space.
Mark Lucius Nomina Sacra Juventus	Posted - 2007.01.28 14:57:00 - [16] Originally by: Plutoinum Edited by: Plutoinum on 28/01/2007 13:46:26 Basic concept for a regular logoff should be a logoff timer that runs down. Any action by yourself or an attacker cancels it. - If you log out that way, your ship should be safe. - if you ctrl-q or crash, your ship shouldn't be safe for an extended period of time, which forces you to log back in. - the logout-timer can't be activated, while still cloaked at the gate after jumping through. The rest are details, like if ctrl-q'ing/cdt'ing lets your ship stay at its place for that extended period of time or if it warps out to a probable place for that time. Surely it shouldn't warp out off bubbles. As a player who gets disconnected (a lot of inappropriate language here) a lot and who does not agree with disconnect on purpose to escape combat, I must say that I agree with your post. --- Quote: I'll send you 10k ingame when I get a chance and you can go buy some named clues This guy is cool! - Cortes
Einheriar Ulrich Minmatar FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.28 15:15:00 - [17] Edited by: Einheriar Ulrich on 28/01/2007 15:18:42 Originally by: Mecinia Lua The problem is that the game has no counter to a Warp Bubble. It is one of only a handful of things that have no counter. It is this lack of a game counter that has gotten some to take up the ctrl + q to escape. Not everyone uses it but a lot do. If the devs provided a reliable means through ship modules, rigs and/or skills that would enable you to escape from a warp bubble and a warp disruptor probe then I think we'd see less folks using the ctrl + q. If you rebound the key folks would rebind it or just learn the new binding it would only at best be a temporary solution. NOT TRUE...... There are several counters. 1: speed, get the hell out of there. 2:Tank your ship..if enemies are in horde seize die. 3: fight back...this is my favorite. You want to have a modul, that let you escape, always...so no one can catch you...warpbubbles, are not the problem...the problem is those players who think, they should always have a jailfree card in a game like EVE where there is no consentual PvP. I once had a sig...it deleted
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.01.28 15:25:00 - [18] Edited by: Hasak Rain on 28/01/2007 15:22:31 Originally by: Benco97 Now, myself I have no problem either way about logging off in battle, combat these days is something I rarely see and even then i'm no longer the aggressor, however, there is a clear divide in the community about logging off to escape. Some call it a tactic against other methods of play, some call it cheating and none can decide on what to do about it. I realise there are other threads like this, I realise the risks of posting this and yet I am still doing so.. why? Because after a certain amount of time, as a thread gets older and longer it gets stuck in a rut where certain parties become most powerful and as such opinions are forced upon others, this is a churning of the idea-mass, a stirring of the miasmic thoughts of the forum, an attempt at some fresh perspectives with even ground. Still, if you deem it trite and unsuitable then by all means lock or delete. I can see a harsh way out of this, harsh but effective. On logging, no matter when, no matter what the reason or method, your ship remains in space for an extended period of time. Pro-loggers will claim this isn't fair and forces them to fight. Anti-loggers will rejoice and relish the thought of easy pickings. The neutral parties will object on the grounds that PvE becomes more dangerous where CTDs and other random acts of the gods are concerned. In the end it results in everyone loosing more ships due to CTDs. It'll stop the logging in combat, it'll casue more deaths due to unforseen circumstances. If you can agree to those terms then perhaps it's an option. I realise that no matter what I say I AM Biased, by now it should be evident that I am against logging in combat despite claims made to the contrary at the start. It's a confusing and difficult subject. So, in lue of creating multiple choice answers please write here how you think this situation should be remedied or even if it should be remedied at all. Thank you. Uh this isn't a solution. It isn't even a new idea. It is just what YOU and a handful of other people would like to see put in. Getting the majority of forum whiners here to agree to this would be getting about what?....maybe 10% of the player base to say yes? Here is a hint to what I am getting at: Not everyone who plays this game reads or posts here so do not disillusion yourself into thinking you can "unifiy" the community with a mere post which happens to also be a pretty bad idea. I mean if it were that easy and obvious, don't you think CCP would have put it in by now instead of trying to brainstorm a more complicated idea? I agree something probably needs to be done about Logging off but don't act like you discovered the cure for Cancer when I have read your "idea" in one form or another in just about every one of the other 5,000 threads about log off this week....yawn.
Benco97 Gallente Multiverse Corporation	Posted - 2007.01.28 15:36:00 - [19] Originally by: Hasak Rain Edited by: Hasak Rain on 28/01/2007 15:22:31 Uh this isn't a solution. It isn't even a new idea. It is just what YOU and a handful of other people would like to see put in. Getting the majority of forum whiners here to agree to this would be getting about what?....maybe 10% of the player base to say yes? Here is a hint to what I am getting at: Not everyone who plays this game reads or posts here so do not disillusion yourself into thinking you can "unifiy" the community with a mere post which happens to also be a pretty bad idea. I mean if it were that easy and obvious, don't you think CCP would have put it in by now instead of trying to brainstorm a more complicated idea? I agree something probably needs to be done about Logging off but don't act like you discovered the cure for Cancer when I have read your "idea" in one form or another in just about every one of the other 5,000 threads about log off this week....yawn. I think you may have missed what my post was actually getting at, it's about bringing more ideas out, not about agreeing with my idea. Keeping to one thread is all well and good but after a while it stagnates and only one or two ideas will be pushed around, this was just an attempt at POKEing more life into the subject by opening a thread where the ideas would be on an even ground. I included my idea because I was actually asking for people to post their ideas. I'm glad you think my idea is bad, it means that you have a different solution, please, feel free to post it. "MY GOD KEEP THIS AWAY FROM BENCO97!!!!!" - Constantine Arcanum
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.01.28 15:45:00 - [20] Originally by: Benco97 Originally by: Hasak Rain Edited by: Hasak Rain on 28/01/2007 15:22:31 Uh this isn't a solution. It isn't even a new idea. It is just what YOU and a handful of other people would like to see put in. Getting the majority of forum whiners here to agree to this would be getting about what?....maybe 10% of the player base to say yes? Here is a hint to what I am getting at: Not everyone who plays this game reads or posts here so do not disillusion yourself into thinking you can "unifiy" the community with a mere post which happens to also be a pretty bad idea. I mean if it were that easy and obvious, don't you think CCP would have put it in by now instead of trying to brainstorm a more complicated idea? I agree something probably needs to be done about Logging off but don't act like you discovered the cure for Cancer when I have read your "idea" in one form or another in just about every one of the other 5,000 threads about log off this week....yawn. I think you may have missed what my post was actually getting at, it's about bringing more ideas out, not about agreeing with my idea. Keeping to one thread is all well and good but after a while it stagnates and only one or two ideas will be pushed around, this was just an attempt at POKEing more life into the subject by opening a thread where the ideas would be on an even ground. I included my idea because I was actually asking for people to post their ideas. I'm glad you think my idea is bad, it means that you have a different solution, please, feel free to post it. Okay then I misunderstood you and apologize for the harsh tone. From reading your OP, it sounded to me like you thought this idea was original and you thought it was the answer to everything. I don't really have an idea of my own. However, I do know if they just use the "bite the bullet" method that you proposed, that quite a few subscribers will quit when they try to petition the loss of their ships after a disconnect and find out there is a month long waiting list before CCP even reads it. I also think CCP knows this and this is why we haven't seen a cure yet. They are trying to come up with something that will not only solve log offs but also the problem with disconnects and potential ship losses by pvers. Lets face it, this server crashes quite frequently as it is. Adding in even more petitions because they won't let the ships warp off if your connection bugs out is asking for major problems.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.01.28 16:16:00 - [21] IF: Aggressed by NPCs and only NPCs THEN: Do the emergency warp, drone cleanup, etc. ELSE: Just sit in space until your 2 minutes are up How's that? If you crash or lag out in PvP, it sucks but something has to be sacrificed to the gods of fair play. If faced with a choice of 1 player having a bad experience due to lag, or several players having a bad experience because of some other players problems with lag, I think it's the one player that has to lose. Solves the ctrl-Q thing, the can't log in my ship inside my POS shield thing, and still keeps people from losing ships to stupid NPCs + lag. ------------------- Ignorance
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.28 16:27:00 - [22] Originally by: Mecinia Lua The problem is that the game has no counter to a Warp Bubble. It is one of only a handful of things that have no counter. Just because there isn't a module called, anti-mobile warp disruptor II, doesn't mean there is no counter to warp bubbles. Think of it like this. Warp bubbles don't kill people, it is the pilots around the bubble that kill people stuck in them. Therefore avoid the pilots, and you make the warp bubble redundant. So in reality what does this mean: It means when travelling through 0.0, use a scout, or a fast ship, or a cloaker. All of these things will give you an excellent chance to avoid or survive a warp bubble camp. CTRL-Q is just weak. People who do it say there is no counter to warp bubbles, and that they didn't ask for pvp or other such silly things like this. You go into 0.0, you are asking for PvP. You jump through gates in a hauler without any idea of what is on the other side - you are asking to get killed by a gatecamp. Just the same as in real life if you make a habit of crossing the road with your eyes shut, you are asking to be run over by a car.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.29 07:39:00 - [23] Originally by: Plutoinum Basic concept for a regular logoff should be a logoff timer that runs down. Any action by yourself or an attacker cancels it. - If you log out that way, your ship should be safe. - if you ctrl-q or crash, your ship shouldn't be safe for an extended period of time, which forces you to log back in. - the logout-timer can't be activated, while still cloaked at the gate after jumping through. The rest are details, like if ctrl-q'ing/cdt'ing lets your ship stay at its place for that extended period of time or if it warps out to a probable place for that time. Surely it shouldn't warp out off bubbles. I find very fun that all the solution proposed are ones that will kill tons of ships PvE. PvP can be the idead of EVE, but it is not the ONLY activity in EVE. Stay in space for extendet time in the same location: when eve freze because someone is pinging like mad, it freze the PC, so to re connect the step are: reset, wait till windows restart, we connect internet, re-start eve. If your suggestion is acceppted: petition ship loss.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.29 07:54:00 - [24] Originally by: Roy Batty68 IF: Aggressed by NPCs and only NPCs THEN: Do the emergency warp, drone cleanup, etc. ELSE: Just sit in space until your 2 minutes are up How's that? If you crash or lag out in PvP, it sucks but something has to be sacrificed to the gods of fair play. If faced with a choice of 1 player having a bad experience due to lag, or several players having a bad experience because of some other players problems with lag, I think it's the one player that has to lose. Solves the ctrl-Q thing, the can't log in my ship inside my POS shield thing, and still keeps people from losing ships to stupid NPCs + lag. That is an acceptable solution, but I suspect thre is some tecnical problem if it hasn't jet been implemented.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.01.29 08:32:00 - [25] Problem with all these solutions is that it makes it attractive for a gatecamping fleet to increase lag, i.e. having drones out and such. More lag means more chance an opponent jumping in will disconnect and thus a free kill.
Nerogk Shorn Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2007.01.29 08:39:00 - [26] You already do. I logged in space in 0.0 at a new safe spot with no pvp flag, and lost my claymore and pod to a moa and typhoon. I was flagged while offline. Game mechanics are so **** up right now it makes me shy away from playing the game. D-F-A-A-B-A-A-S**
Elik Phossary	Posted - 2007.01.29 13:05:00 - [27] There are a few opposing views on this, I think CCP should get a poll of everyone's opinion and then make a decision, even of it's to stay as we are. The poll should be on login to the game itself rather than on the forums and give several options to what could be done. Then we have a really good idea as to how the whole of eve feels. The same method could be done for any contraversial major changes in the future too.
Lasus Olive Laboratories	Posted - 2007.01.29 13:20:00 - [28] Ok I will admit I am new here (about 6 months). One thing that maybe would help some is to not allow the esc key to log you out. Place an icon in each station for logging out. In other words make it so you have to be in a station to log out. Pain n An unpleasant feeling or sensation usually caused by the good fortune of another
Shanur	Posted - 2007.01.29 13:22:00 - [29] The problem with almost guaranteeing loss of ship when CTD is that due to the fact that there are some bugs in the game that cause more than your fair share of them, this would lead to a massive increase in bug related deaths, causing a run on reimbursement petitions. I agree myself that logoffski should be removed, but punishing people for having their system give up on them unanounced isn't the answer to that.

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