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Nvermind	Posted - 2007.01.29 19:15:00 - [1] Hey all! so ive got my gunnery up to spec (1.5 mill) and my learning skills sorted... I want to start to specialize so i can bring something to a PvP gang. I was thinking about a covert ops ship. Thing is... they seem weak... are there any covert ops pilots out there able to tell me the highs and the lows?
Nvermind	Posted - 2007.01.29 19:15:00 - [2] Hey all! so ive got my gunnery up to spec (1.5 mill) and my learning skills sorted... I want to start to specialize so i can bring something to a PvP gang. I was thinking about a covert ops ship. Thing is... they seem weak... are there any covert ops pilots out there able to tell me the highs and the lows?
Marcathonas The Splinter Syndicate SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.29 19:21:00 - [3] Yes, they're weak. You have no business fighting. You cloak, and you scan, and if you're a semi-suicidal loon you might get a point if the fleet needs a few seconds while warping. You do not engage in combat because a rookie ship can kill you.
Marcathonas The Splinter Syndicate SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.29 19:21:00 - [4] Yes, they're weak. You have no business fighting. You cloak, and you scan, and if you're a semi-suicidal loon you might get a point if the fleet needs a few seconds while warping. You do not engage in combat because a rookie ship can kill you.
Nvermind	Posted - 2007.01.29 20:02:00 - [5] Is that the verdict on Covert Ops? Am i to get an interceptor instead? ARE there any covert ops pilots AT ALL?
Beef Hardslab The 5 Amigo's LLC.	Posted - 2007.01.29 20:08:00 - [6] That's about the long & short of it. Take a really flimsy ship, put a special 70 mil covops cloak on it - there ya go, covops frig. Why there should be a breathalyzer to login to Eve: Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii Podding my own alt in a gatecamp while drunk, he was carrying a hauler full of tech II goods, Oops.
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.01.29 20:34:00 - [7] Edited by: Humpalot on 29/01/2007 20:31:10 Originally by: Nvermind ARE there any covert ops pilots AT ALL? Absolutely. Lots of them in fact. They are meant to be scouts and most fleets will use one or more. They can also act as a warp point for other ships to help them land at whatever distance they deem ideal for a fight. They are also near impossible to stop with a gate camp (if they do get stopped either the CovOps pilot screwed up or the other side got lucky). But as others have said a CovOps frigate is no fighter. They are made out of paper and just looking at one sternly can make it pop. That said if you want to fight with a cloaked CovOps ship then you might want to look in to getting a Force Recon ship. Basically they are CovOps cruisers (note that of the two recon cruisers each race has only one can use the CovOps cloaking device). They aren't very good fighters as cruisers go but combined with their cloak they can pull it off in some situations. Generally I would still avoid PvP with a Force Recon but if you really want to fight with CovOps then this is really the only option. Note: ANY ship can use a cloak but they come with a few downsides so most people do not bother except for some specific need. Only CovOps frigs and Force Recon can use the CovOps cloak which is superior to the rest.
Beef Hardslab The 5 Amigo's LLC.	Posted - 2007.01.29 20:53:00 - [8] Also worth pointing out that if you want to fight in a Force Recon, hope you trained something other than Caldari. Why there should be a breathalyzer to login to Eve: Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii Podding my own alt in a gatecamp while drunk, he was carrying a hauler full of tech II goods, Oops.
Simon Jax Gallente Freelancing Corp	Posted - 2007.01.29 23:41:00 - [9] IÆm a CovOps pilot, but not for PvP at this stage. I use it for scouting and scanning, but mainly scanning for Exploration. As for the ship, think of it like an undercover agent. The last thing an undercover agent wants is to be discovered. Being discovered generally = being dead. The CovOps ship is T2, but it has T1 resistances and less by way of weaponry. In other words, a T1 frigate has a good chance of out-fighting a CovOps pilot. That is, of course, if the CovOps chooses to fight it out. Most (daresay all) CovOps pilots look to getting out of battle rather than seeing it through. Fortunately, the ships are given a fair bit to work with to this end. They all have 4 or 5 mid slots, and can often EWAR themselves out of trouble. Or at least make a go at doing so. The Recon Ships, specifically the Force Recon Ships, are the Cruiser equivalent, but can be taken into battle. They arenÆt as tough as the other T2 cruisers, but gain a tactical advantage that can put them in a position to only fight battles they can win. IÆm not to the point I can fly them, so I canÆt say first hand. But as a class, the Force Recon Ships strike me as a ship class that takes a lot of pilot skills to be good at, moreso than many other ship classes. If you are looking for an exciting ship for PvP, then the Interceptor is a good class that gets to see a lot of action. ItÆs not the ôI keel uö type ship, but most certainly integral to many ship kills throughout EVE. --Wherever you go, there you are.
Apophis Omega Amarr M'8'S	Posted - 2007.01.30 01:56:00 - [10] Originally by: Nvermind Is that the verdict on Covert Ops? Am i to get an interceptor instead? ARE there any covert ops pilots AT ALL? I fly one, they are weak, go for an AF or inty. I like the AF because it can take a hit and deal nice damage. Recruiting Our website
Dekiri Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.01.30 13:18:00 - [11] Originally by: Humpalot Edited by: Humpalot on 29/01/2007 20:31:10 Originally by: Nvermind ARE there any covert ops pilots AT ALL? Absolutely. Lots of them in fact. They are meant to be scouts and most fleets will use one or more. They can also act as a warp point for other ships to help them land at whatever distance they deem ideal for a fight. They are also near impossible to stop with a gate camp (if they do get stopped either the CovOps pilot screwed up or the other side got lucky). But as others have said a CovOps frigate is no fighter. They are made out of paper and just looking at one sternly can make it pop. That said if you want to fight with a cloaked CovOps ship then you might want to look in to getting a Force Recon ship. Basically they are CovOps cruisers (note that of the two recon cruisers each race has only one can use the CovOps cloaking device). They aren't very good fighters as cruisers go but combined with their cloak they can pull it off in some situations. Generally I would still avoid PvP with a Force Recon but if you really want to fight with CovOps then this is really the only option. Note: ANY ship can use a cloak but they come with a few downsides so most people do not bother except for some specific need. Only CovOps frigs and Force Recon can use the CovOps cloak which is superior to the rest. I would suggest before commenting on a certain ship type you try flying it first and then comment, because it sure doesn't make you look particularly smart. Recon cruisers are nice toys and are sure capable of combat=) And not only versus frigates =p --------------------------------- Exanimo Inc. - Mercs for hire Join channel "CONTRACT EXAN" in game if you wish to hire Exanimo Inc. Or contact cptblood or kakanur
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.01.30 15:55:00 - [12] Originally by: Dekiri I would suggest before commenting on a certain ship type you try flying it first and then comment, because it sure doesn't make you look particularly smart. Recon cruisers are nice toys and are sure capable of combat=) And not only versus frigates =p I never said they could not fight. Technically a CovOps frigate can fight. That does not make it a good idea. Recon cruisers are meant for just what it says...recon. Are they bad ships? Certainly not and I know pirates like soloing in Force Recons because it gives them the all important ability for their job to pick and choose what they attack while remaining relatively safe. But on the whole, with pilots of equal skill (e.g. both would have Cruiser-5 trained and so on), a Tech-I (tier-3) cruiser will probably kill a Force Recon in a 1-on-1. Mostly though it is a question of the wisdom of such a move when deciding to fight in a Force Recon versus, say, a T1 cruiser. A Maller costs around 7.5 million ISK. A pilgrim costs around 75 million ISK (10x the cost). Add in the Covert Ops Cloaking Device II and you put another 75 mil in to the Pilgrim. So, you want to fly a 150 million ISK ship (more really with other mods but we'll keep it simple) of which maybe 15 million is insurable or a 7.5 million ISK ship of which almost all of it is insurable? Especially considering the 7.5 mil ship will likely do more damage and is just as survivable once in a fight as the 150 mil ship. Your call but for my money I'll stick with the Force Recon as a supporting role ship best used with groups (or as a pirate if I were one). I'll fight with it in a pinch but there are many other ships I would go for to fight with than a Force Recon.
Simon Jax Gallente Freelancing Corp	Posted - 2007.01.30 16:33:00 - [13] Edited by: Simon Jax on 30/01/2007 16:30:08 Originally by: Humpalot But on the whole, with pilots of equal skill (e.g. both would have Cruiser-5 trained and so on), a Tech-I (tier-3) cruiser will probably kill a Force Recon in a 1-on-1. You sure about that? Pilgrim starts out with T2 resists, and has a 5 slot tank on top of it. The Maller is almost to T2 resists with its ship bonus but can fit a 6 slot tank. They start out with almost identical armor values. The tanking ability looks to be almost equal on paper. However, itÆs when you get into the other recon-ship bonuses that I really disagree with you. YouÆd assume that the Pilgrim pilot has his drone skills up to snuff so youÆd be facing 5x T2 medium drones (plus a spare or two). But I think itÆs the other two sides of the Pilgrim that rip you to pieces: Nos/Neut and Tracking Disruption. The Pilgrim can nail you with what is effectively 6 nos/neut all at once. Then slap on a tracking disruptor or two. You probably wonÆt have the cap to keep your lasers and tank going, even with a cap booster. The Pilgrim can permarep even with one neut (IÆm pretty sure). You canÆt kill off his drones because the tracking disruptors simply wonÆt let you hit them reliably enough to kill them before they are cycled. On top of all that, you have zero control over your range because the fight doesnÆt begin until the Pilgrim is right next to you. YouÆre webbed, scrammed, Nossed to all hell, and your tracking is being borked all the while you are surrounded by T2 drones that will simply hurt. Of note, I have not flown such ships and I'm just going off the stats. But given the automatic assumption that the Recon ship starts the fight, I don't see the T1 Cruiser, even T2 fitted, winning that fight. --Wherever you go, there you are.
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.01.30 20:27:00 - [14] Originally by: Simon Jax Of note, I have not flown such ships and I'm just going off the stats. But given the automatic assumption that the Recon ship starts the fight, I don't see the T1 Cruiser, even T2 fitted, winning that fight. Well...the Pilgrim is a very good Force Recon ship and Amarr (per the proposed Maller vs. Pilgrim fight) are particularly vulnerable to NOS and tracking disruption. Things might change if the Pilgrim fought a Caracal or another drone ship. While I have not flown it someone mentioned above that the Caldari Force Recon is a lousy fighter so apparently these things change. Even if you go with the Pilgrim winning most fights you are still throwing a 150 mil of ship with crap insurance at another ship worth 7-8 mil (more with mods but you get the idea). I'll stick with going for more combat focused ships to fight or the Pilgrim in a group.
Simon Jax Gallente Freelancing Corp	Posted - 2007.01.30 20:46:00 - [15] I agree with you on the risk assessment part, that's for sure. And of the Force Recons, the Pilgrim is probably the only one I'd fight with too. Don't forget though, the greatest asset to a Force Recon Pilot is the ability to pick his battles. i.e. - I doubt many would pit themselves against a Caracal unless they were certain it was active-tanking. --Wherever you go, there you are.
Moe deLawn	Posted - 2007.01.30 21:59:00 - [16] CVops ships have another slight disadvantage - you can't jump through a gate cloaked. You have to uncloak, then jump. On the other side of the gate, you can't activate your cloak again until the normal gate-jump cloaking is interrupted. So you typically have to hit warp-to and then quickly hit your cloak on again. It's not a huge deal, but anyone at a camp will at least be alerted to your presence. So it's not 100% stealth...
Sonya Rayner Amarr Unicorn Enterprise	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:40:00 - [17] In modern warfare, intelligence is a weapon. And covertops is the ship that provides this weapon. So even though you won't be in any killmails at all, but your fleet members will be _really_ grateful for that tactical superiority and flexibility a single covops ship can help to archieve. Here's one of the many examples of use of the covops in fleet wars: Your system is being gatecamped by a fleet with sniper battleships in position (usually 120-150 kms from gate) and some support dierctly on gate (as most 0.0 gatecamps look like). All you have is a gang of close-range fitted batleships with some support sitting in a pos (for example). You know that your fleet will never be able to beat the campers in direct 1on1 confrontation. Are you doomed? not at all, since you have a covops pilot in your gang keeping an eye on enemy (enemy may be aware of covops in the system, but they will never be able to pinpoint the exact location of it ). He/she can position the ship in such manner, so your fleet warping into him/her at pre-defined distance will land right on top of the camping battleships, able to wreck some real havoc out there, or at least, even up the scores. As for recon ships, they're quite handy in fleet warfare, but also can stand for themselves in some 1on1 situations. As it was mentioned, recon ship pilots have the advantage of choosing whether fight or not. And yes, i fly both of these ships, though mostly i can be found moving around in my pilgrim :] note #1: most pilgrim setups include 10 T2 drones: 5x mediums, 5x smalls for taking on small targets, such as inties or other drones note #2: well-setup covert ops definitely won't be hurt by rookie ship tbh ^^ i have some kills with my anathema, mostly shuttles & pods though note #3: if you want to have some serious ship (in damage, or/and tanking aspects) then covert ops and recon ships aren't your pick. in this case you should try interceptors or the assault frigates ____________________
Stein Voorhees Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:46:00 - [18] CovOps frigates have quite a few uses as mentioned above. They are the best ships for probing both ships and exploration sites. They are excellent scouts for fleets allowing warp-in points on targets and generaly giving info to your FC's. They can be used offensively, it's just it can be VERY high risk against the wrong sort of ships with the wrong setup. Also, the cost of these paper thin ships is high, CovOps Cloak II's going for about 60-70 mill these days. Anyway, check out the site in my sig. Agony Unleashed do a whole load of PvP based courses for beginners and we also do a CovOps course (not really beginners, just beginners in CovOps frigs ).
Kua Burrow	Posted - 2007.01.31 02:00:00 - [19] Someone mentioned the insurance pay out on a pilgrim is pretty naff. If that is the case, what is insurance based on? I'm guessing it was fair for the original price of the ship, but that the ship rose in price and the insurance wasn't changed. Is that about right?
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.01.31 04:20:00 - [20] Edited by: Humpalot on 31/01/2007 04:16:46 Originally by: Kua Burrow Edited by: Kua Burrow on 31/01/2007 02:17:22 Someone mentioned the insurance pay out on a pilgrim is pretty naff. If that is the case, what is insurance based on? I'm guessing it was fair for the original price of the ship, but that the ship rose in price and the insurance wasn't changed. Is that about right? Insurance payouts are based on the mineral value of the ship. If you refined a ship back into minerals the value of those minerals roughly equates to the payout price on insurance. While for T1 ships this is fine (they are built only with minerals) for T2 ships this does not work. Partly because besides minerals they need component parts which add cost to the ship but mostly because only a few people have control of T2 BPOs and raise the price FAR beyond what they cost to build. Bottom line means insuring a T2 ship comes nowhere close to paying for what it cost to buy (if you have a T2 BPO and build your own you might come close...everyone else is screwed). CCP does not alter the payout because if they taggged payout to average sell price then you have opportunity to perpetrate insurance scams (why sell the ship, build it then blow it up ad nauseum and get rich). Add in the cost (in this thread's case) that the CovOps Cloaking device costs 75 mil and knowing that modules are not covered in insurance payouts and you can see losing a CovOps frig or Force Recon with the CovOps module will mean a hefty loss for most owners. Quote: When people talk about T2 resists, do they simply mean the resists are 'good'? It's a little confusing when you say a T2 ship (cov ops frigate) doesnt have T2 resists . T2 ships, as one might imagine, are generally better than their T1 counterparts. One form this usually takes is T2 ships having naturally higher resists than T1 ships of a similar class. In the case of the Maller vs. the Pilgrim above it happens that the Maller has bonuses to armor resists per level of Amarr Cruiser you possess. If you have L5 Amarr cruiser and add your bonuses to the Maller you get armor resist on par with a base level Pilgrim (T2 ship). Pilgrim has no armor resist bonuses so on paper the two ships seem roughly equal on armor tanks assuming the pilot has L5 cruiser trained (which if you are flying a Pilgrim you definitely have). Quote: Another related question: It seems the only way a cov ops frig can fit a cloaking device is the reduction in required CPU per racial frigate level. How is it therefore that the stealth bomber fits the device as it doesn't get a similar bonus? You cannot fit a CovOps cloaking device on a stealth bomber. They can only use the lesser cloaks. Stealth bombers allow you to use overpowered weapons for a frigate class ship. In practice most people have found stealth bombers wanting and hope for a buff someday. I hear in packs they can be trouble but I have never been involved in that so only repeating what I hear on this one. Quote: Oh and any thoughts on the best stealth bomber going? I really like the sound of this ship . Unleashing hell mili-seconds after the enemy is aware of your presence . I like. They do sound cool but as mentioned above they apparently are wanting somehow. Someone else will have to answer on their shortcomings but given I see so few I tend to buy the opinion that they are not as cool as they seem on paper.
Kua Burrow	Posted - 2007.01.31 04:34:00 - [21] Thank you for such an informative answer Humpalot. After looking a bit further into stealth bombers I have seen a lot of cons :(. But I did wonder if they would be good in packs. Then again anything is good in packs :p.
Shanur	Posted - 2007.01.31 09:46:00 - [22] Originally by: Humpalot In practice most people have found stealth bombers wanting and hope for a buff someday. I think i read that in Kali 2 stealth bombers will get a new type of bomb.
Grenadier	Posted - 2007.02.01 17:43:00 - [23] Very good answers here ( and nice new info to me also ). Here's something my friend sent me. It's a Force Recon 101. The Force Recon group is composed exclusively of Force Recon cruisers: The Pilgrim, the Arazu, the Rapier, and the Falcon. It makes a good reading and gives you more insight info about recon-business alltogether: http://members.gamedev.net/sami/eve/recon.htm

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