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Crow vs. Taranis for 0.0 Solo Hunting

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Jorah Q'Tar	Posted - 2007.01.29 20:48:00 - [1] My understanding from reading the forums has been that the crow is often the best interceptor for general purpose 0.0 solo hunting. Sub-10km range is out for 'ceptors because of the likelihood of running into nossing, webbing cruisers: which eliminates blasters on the 'ranis. Then conventional wisdom seems to be "Don't even think of rails on a Taranis," and instead these ranges point towards a Crow. After crunching some of the numbers though, I am curious if this is truly the case. Let me compare various points. Damage: Ok, so this is the main point I suppose. My initial thought was, Oh, there is no way Rails could track at standard interceptor orbiting speeds. So I ran some calculations through the Damage Spreadsheet - At Range vs Cruiers: Rails seem to track more than sufficiently for cruisers. Add in drones, and you easily surpass the crow for damage. These stats are calculated for a range of 18km (just about right for a T1 warp dis.) and a cruiser sig radius. Graph includes Drones. Trans vs DPS for Cruisers at 18km In fact, the Taranis outdamages the Crow for a wide selection of ranges against cruisers. Between about 5km and 27km the Taranis can deal more damage, sometimes, about 40dps more. Range vs DPS for Cruisers at 3km/s - At Range vs 'Ceptors: Admittedly, the Rail-'Ranis seems to lose out vs. other ceptors. Past 2500 m/s transversal the 'ranis is out-damaged by the crow. The case will be even worse when you start to factor in the drones not being able to keep up at higher speeds. Transversal vs DPS for 'ceptors at 18km In fact, at typically 'ceptor transversals, the crow will always beat a Taranis in dps no matter what range. Range vs DPS for 'ceptors at 3km/s - Close Range vs 'Ceptors: Obviously, if the rail-'ranis gets webbed or engaged at close range without the possibility of escape, his damage is greatly degraded. However, the Taranis seems to beat out the crow at all but the closest ranges when the opponent is orbiting at 300 m/s. Even if we increase the speed to 600 m/s the 'ranis beats out the crow past 3500m. Range vs DPS against ceptors Speed: With my skills and both ships fitted with 1 Mark I Modified Nanofiber, and a MWD II (via QuickFit): + Crow: Speed: 4196 m/s Agility: 4.902 + Taranis: Speed: 3977 m/s Agility: 4.902 So, the crow can outrun the Taranis but not by much. Since this Taranis probably shouldn't attack other 'ceptors anyway, does 219 m/s make that much of a difference? Targeting Range: This may infact be one of the big deal breakers. With Long Range Targetting at Lvl IV + Crow: 36km + Taranis: 24km So if the Taranis wants to be able to use its rails at longer ranges, or be able to make full use of Warp Disrupter IIs, its going to need a sensor booster, which then gives the crow an extra mid to use. (All graphs are shown for T1 Ammo) Conclusion: So my conclusion consists more of questions for the community after examining the above data. - Is the crow better for general purpose 0.0 hunting? - Is this because it is so much more consistent? Yes the Taranis can outdamage against cruisers, but it is far more vulnerable to other 'ceptors. Is this trade-off end up favoring the crow? - Is the ~60dps from a crow sufficient to take out a lone cruiser in 0.0 (assuming he can't jump through a gate, etc.)? - Does the real advantage of the crow come out when you factor in all the "non-ideal" conditions that are actually experienced in flight which can't be captured by QuickFit / damage calculations?
Nir The Doldrums	Posted - 2007.01.29 20:59:00 - [2] The only true difference between the two is that the Crow uses less micro management.
Akwarr	Posted - 2007.01.29 21:16:00 - [3] In your graph it shows you using 125mm t2 rails with antimatter ammo (well it says best t1, which is antimatter), and you say you're firing at 18km? My taranis with good skills (sharpshooter 4, inty 4, blah blah blah) has a range of something like 10km with antimatter and t2 125mm rails, 18km is outside of falloff for me, which would bring the dps way way down. Am I missing something here? I'd love to be able to fight at 18km in my taranis with 125's but it doesn't seem possible really.
Jorah Q'Tar	Posted - 2007.01.29 21:19:00 - [4] Best T1 Ammo means best ammo for most damage at certain range, hence the humps in the range graphs. So the DPS vs Range graphs show data for ALL ammo types, not just antimatter.
Deathbarrage	Posted - 2007.01.29 21:27:00 - [5] if you fly a taranis and you're not using blasters get a crow
gazarsgo Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2007.01.29 22:37:00 - [6] i don't understand why crow damage is constant in all your charts. you're not accounting for something. even judging by your graph's peaks, you're giving up 80 or more DPS by using rails instead of blasters. not sure why you're using nanos instead of istabs for speed either...
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.29 22:44:00 - [7] Originally by: Deathbarrage if you fly a taranis and you're not using blasters get a crow Oh really? Blastertaranis is dead taranis. 1 heavy nosf or 1 med neut and you can only watch your shield, armor and structure vanish while beeing webbed. Also ... it's not hard to nuke blastertaranis with rail one. Or any other inty, apart from stiletto. It's good for ganking haulers though. snip - Signature removed, email us to know why. -Ivan K
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.01.29 22:54:00 - [8] I prefer the ares over a taranis anyway, you can handle a lot more situations, are quite fast and track other inty fine with 125mm 2 and std launchers 2... Because of split weaponsystem you are more versatile and can shoot gun down fleeing inties better... _________________________________________________ Breetime
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.01.29 23:08:00 - [9] Edited by: welsh wizard on 29/01/2007 23:10:10 If you're going to fly a blaster ranis put everything into speed. If it can web and get up close then 9 times out of 10 its going to come out on top. Just watch the high damage opponenets like a Claw. If you're slower then your chances are reduced significantly because they dictate the fight. You might be able to turn them into your web with a few nifty moves but that takes time, inty fights don't last long. Speed is life when you're flying an interceptor. edit: The wonderful thing about the Crow is that it can dictate basically every fight. You can engage pretty much anything at will and see how you fair. If it gets too hairy then you can leg it. The faster your Crow goes the less damage you take and in turn its less likely that you're going to have to leave. Watch out for the obvious dangers, like your cap when engaging a battleship, if it suddenly drains completely then you've been banged by heavy nos and its time to scarper. Get in the habit of checking cruiser sized ships, watch out for Huginns, Rapiers, Curses and Pilgrims. Also put velocity on your overview so you can see how your speed compares. If the enemy goes faster than you then you have a problem. Overall you're going to have far more success hunting in 0.0 in a Crow than you are in a Ranis.
Jorah Q'Tar	Posted - 2007.01.30 01:00:00 - [10] Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Deathbarrage if you fly a taranis and you're not using blasters get a crow Oh really? Blastertaranis is dead taranis. 1 heavy nosf or 1 med neut and you can only watch your shield, armor and structure vanish while beeing webbed. Also ... it's not hard to nuke blastertaranis with rail one. Or any other inty, apart from stiletto. It's good for ganking haulers though. That was my general thought in abbandoning the blasters. Perhaps I misstated, but my main goal is being able to take on haulers and lone cruisers. If I can take out, or at least fight off other 'ceptors that would be a bonus. Quote: if you fly a taranis and you're not using blasters get a crow Deathbarrage: that is exactly the logic I am trying to question here. Everyone says this... but then never explains. My post was designed to try and figure out if this has become the generic answer because it is right... or because it is convient and easier to fly.
Phrixus Zephyr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.01.30 02:44:00 - [11] Edited by: Phrixus Zephyr on 30/01/2007 02:41:57 If you're going for miners/NPCers or other ceptors then use a blasteranis. The miners don't fit webs and you need to do as much damage asap before his friends come in. NPCers, well it depends on the ship, but you have to think honestly is your missle crow going to do enough damage to break his tank?. Other ceptors you'll beat if they come within 10k, 'ceptors faster than you that you can't manauver into range you just have to ignore. Crow is all fine and dandy, and its survivability as a tackling scout and in gang fights is alot higher, but you engage another ceptor on a gate, he's just going to ignore you and jump. If he doesn't, hes either faster than you, or stupid. Originally by: Ice Conch In soviet russia, soap drops you!
Foulis Minmatar Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.01.30 05:27:00 - [12] Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Deathbarrage if you fly a taranis and you're not using blasters get a crow Oh really? Blastertaranis is dead taranis. 1 heavy nosf or 1 med neut and you can only watch your shield, armor and structure vanish while beeing webbed. Also ... it's not hard to nuke blastertaranis with rail one. Or any other inty, apart from stiletto. It's good for ganking haulers though. looks at range of heavy nos.... looks at range of scrams You're gonna be in heavy nos range anyway.... And even assuming you are out of neut range you still won't be able to sustain that 20km ruptor very long, and you'll need time with the low dps the rail setup gives you. You have to realize that a blasteranis will do upwards of 300 dps, 220 more than your graphs list for rails. ---- Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari NO WORDS IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE ARE SPELLED WITH THE NUMBER "8" IN THEM GODDAMNIT!
Trivas ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.30 05:42:00 - [13] The nice thing about the crow is that you do the same damage no matter what the range (until your missles stop hitting that is). This means that the crow is more flexable, and thus less chance of being supprised.
Exiled One Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2007.01.30 06:18:00 - [14] I took out a thorax in .8 in a blasteranis with neutrons, before concord arrived Was drunk at that time. Blasteranis postkali = dead ranis. It's great being Amarr, aint it?
Xori Ruscuv SniggWaffe Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.01.30 06:42:00 - [15] Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 30/01/2007 06:38:11 Yeah, crow > all other inties and most cruisers. Is this news? It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
Mutant Caldari Caldari VSP Corp. R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.01.30 06:43:00 - [16] Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 30/01/2007 06:38:11 Yeah, crow > all other inties and most cruisers. Is this news? Until the Crow gets within web range Yeah I am a pirate.What are you gonna do about it?
Xori Ruscuv SniggWaffe Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.01.30 06:48:00 - [17] Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 30/01/2007 06:46:22 Originally by: Mutant Caldari Quote: Yeah, crow > all other inties and most cruisers. Is this news? Until the Crow gets within web range Erm... When the hell is that going to happen? The crow can get out of range before most ships can even get a lock. The crow is fast enough to dictate range in near any fight - unless the pilot is a bleeding idiot. If it is going to happen to the crow, it's going to happen to the Taranis (or any other interceptor) - and in that case they're ALL up **** creek without a paddle. So, the eternal truth remains: Crow > other inties and most cruisers. This is not news. It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
Mutant Caldari Caldari VSP Corp. R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.01.30 07:11:00 - [18] Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 30/01/2007 06:46:22 Originally by: Mutant Caldari Quote: Yeah, crow > all other inties and most cruisers. Is this news? Until the Crow gets within web range Erm... When the hell is that going to happen? The crow can get out of range before most ships can even get a lock. The crow is fast enough to dictate range in near any fight - unless the pilot is a bleeding idiot. If it is going to happen to the crow, it's going to happen to the Taranis (or any other interceptor) - and in that case they're ALL up **** creek without a paddle. So, the eternal truth remains: Crow > other inties and most cruisers. This is not news. I've had a Crow come in web range of my Vexor before... Oh and if another Inty is faster then a Crow and catches it then that Crow is dead. Yeah I am a pirate.What are you gonna do about it?
Xori Ruscuv SniggWaffe Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.01.30 07:35:00 - [19] Originally by: Mutant Caldari I've had a Crow come in web range of my Vexor before... I'm not implying that you aren't a good PVPer, but the Crow that came within webrange certainly wasn't a good PVPer. Or even decent. Or even mediocre. :D Quote: Oh and if another Inty is faster then a Crow and catches it then that Crow is dead. True enough. It seems to me that most crow setups I've seen are faster than most inty setups I've seen, however. Nonetheless, your statement is basically correct: if the crow comes into range with an inty that is in fact faster - no matter the setup - then the crow is screwed, assuming the other inty can "tank" its damage for that duration. Nonetheless, I see this as unlikey to happen, being that (in this case) the railranis likely isn't going to be doing speeds as high as the crow due to set up (since the crow CAN go faster because it doesn't have to worry about tracking). It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
Mutant Caldari Caldari VSP Corp. R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.01.30 07:41:00 - [20] Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Originally by: Mutant Caldari I've had a Crow come in web range of my Vexor before... I'm not implying that you aren't a good PVPer, but the Crow that came within webrange certainly wasn't a good PVPer. Or even decent. Or even mediocre. :D Quote: Oh and if another Inty is faster then a Crow and catches it then that Crow is dead. True enough. It seems to me that most crow setups I've seen are faster than most inty setups I've seen, however. Nonetheless, your statement is basically correct: if the crow comes into range with an inty that is in fact faster - no matter the setup - then the crow is screwed, assuming the other inty can "tank" its damage for that duration. Nonetheless, I see this as unlikey to happen, being that (in this case) the railranis likely isn't going to be doing speeds as high as the crow due to set up (since the crow CAN go faster because it doesn't have to worry about tracking). Most Crow setups consist of faction gear.If they dont have any faction gear an Ares will easily be faster then them if they have the same MWD.Plus at the speeds an Ares can go Light Missiles hit for about 2.2 damage and your rails/blasters+rockets/missiles will eat a Crow alive. Yeah I am a pirate.What are you gonna do about it?
eXtas Kemono.	Posted - 2007.01.30 07:43:00 - [21] but crows dps is 0 if the target moves to fast... then rail ranis might atleast hit some shots :P if u are going to just gank haulers/cruiers/bc's then use a ranis with 150mm rails... u just have to avoid inty fights.. but if u want the easyest to fly get a crow with gistii mwd, 28 or 30km scrambler and nothing then a faster ship can kill u, but u wont have the dps to kill a covertops slowboating back to the gate!
Xori Ruscuv SniggWaffe Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.01.30 07:46:00 - [22] Originally by: Mutant Caldari Most Crow setups consist of faction gear.If they dont have any faction gear an Ares will easily be faster then them if they have the same MWD.Plus at the speeds an Ares can go Light Missiles hit for about 2.2 damage and your rails/blasters+rockets/missiles will eat a Crow alive. Ah, ok... true enough. I get it. (Though the thread was about the Ranis vs Crow :D) The Ares looks interesting... though the whole drone vs other inty thing... doesn't really work does it? Can't a tech 2 loaded Crow easily outrun drones? It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
Mutant Caldari Caldari VSP Corp. R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.01.30 07:48:00 - [23] Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Originally by: Mutant Caldari Most Crow setups consist of faction gear.If they dont have any faction gear an Ares will easily be faster then them if they have the same MWD.Plus at the speeds an Ares can go Light Missiles hit for about 2.2 damage and your rails/blasters+rockets/missiles will eat a Crow alive. Ah, ok... true enough. I get it. (Though the thread was about the Ranis vs Crow :D) The Ares looks interesting... though the whole drone vs other inty thing... doesn't really work does it? Can't a tech 2 loaded Crow easily outrun drones? Taranis has the Drone bay not the Ares .But as I said the Ares the Ares can fit 2 75mm Rail II's and 2 Standard Launchers and can go at such speeds that Light Missiles do so little damage it's like your not getting hit hehe.And usually the only drones that can catch inties are Warrior II's Yeah I am a pirate.What are you gonna do about it?
Xori Ruscuv SniggWaffe Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.01.30 07:51:00 - [24] Originally by: Mutant Caldari Taranis has the Drone bay not the Ares . Shows you how much I know about inties :D It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
Mutant Caldari Caldari VSP Corp. R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.01.30 07:58:00 - [25] Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Originally by: Mutant Caldari Taranis has the Drone bay not the Ares . Shows you how much I know about inties :D Hehe Yeah I am a pirate.What are you gonna do about it?
Deathbarrage	Posted - 2007.01.30 08:41:00 - [26] Originally by: Jorah Q'Tar Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Deathbarrage if you fly a taranis and you're not using blasters get a crow Oh really? Blastertaranis is dead taranis. 1 heavy nosf or 1 med neut and you can only watch your shield, armor and structure vanish while beeing webbed. Also ... it's not hard to nuke blastertaranis with rail one. Or any other inty, apart from stiletto. It's good for ganking haulers though. That was my general thought in abbandoning the blasters. Perhaps I misstated, but my main goal is being able to take on haulers and lone cruisers. If I can take out, or at least fight off other 'ceptors that would be a bonus. Quote: if you fly a taranis and you're not using blasters get a crow Deathbarrage: that is exactly the logic I am trying to question here. Everyone says this... but then never explains. My post was designed to try and figure out if this has become the generic answer because it is right... or because it is convient and easier to fly. the idea is blasterranis is way fun to fly, and if you want a long range ship there's numerous ships that are better at it (like the crow for one) Also I've never lost a blaster ranis to a long range inty, they always orbit @ 20km, just fly away, they follow you, reverse direction and OMG THEY'RE @ 5km

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