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smokebaca murchada
Freedom Express Yokai
0
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Posted - 2016.02.05 02:50:26 -
[1] - Quote
First off I have to say i am biased towards missiles because i enjoy the in game graphics and just all out gameplay mechanics of them.
However I do have a proposed change that could make them better in pve or at least not irrelevant in incursions/wasted damage ect
CCP strives to make the game relatively balanced/realistic
So why cant missiles if they are pursuing a target that gets destroyed rather than disappear and do 0 damage become redirected and hit the next nearest target. Missiles in the real world oftentimes do similar things, they are tagged to a thermal target and if they miss they engage the next thermal target.
As a fair balance change they could make this target anything other than the original, i mean friend or foe.
This would allow a unique balance change and allow missile boats in pve not waste damage or in some case accidentally shoot friends in the process if people are careless
I am simply looking at a decent change because when incursions and other such activities are strictly restricted to certain ship types it is rather off putting
Also I should say I fully understand there are amazing pve missile ships Tengu golem ect, but there is always a change that could be made for a greater benefit and a decent balance change
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Pix Severus
Empty You
2816
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Posted - 2016.02.05 02:54:00 -
[2] - Quote
Your idea would be better received in this section of the forums, friend.
Interesting idea, but I feel that missiles are powerful enough, and to increase their effectiveness in PvE would make them overpowered in PvP.
My lord.
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smokebaca murchada
Freedom Express Yokai
0
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Posted - 2016.02.05 03:01:59 -
[3] - Quote
Missiles are good but no where near overpowered. The only true thing that missiles are overpowered/excel at are sniping (whic should maybe be toned back a bit in my opinion) regardless if you look at most pve/pvp fits
and i do say most
they are drones or gunships not missiles
there is a reason for that, the instant damage application is a huge benefit that most people take for granted |
Ibutho Inkosi
Irubo Kovu
96
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Posted - 2016.02.05 03:02:09 -
[4] - Quote
Pix Severus wrote:Your idea would be better received in this section of the forums, friend. Interesting idea, but I feel that missiles are powerful enough, and to increase their effectiveness in PvE would make them overpowered in PvP. Oh my goodness! Can I believe my eyes? A carebear PvP-er claiming missiles are OP (potentially). I'm stunned.
I agree. Missiles guided by computers, with all the skills required to do this correctly, SHOULD NOT blankly poof after a target is destroyed mid-trajectory. All this valuable (cost of skill books/time invested) for missile specialization/launcher specialization/targeting enhancement SHOULD allow the redirection of an in-flight missile ridding us of that pesky GAP in timing that DISQUALIFIES missile users from incursion groups.
Good idea. Thanks for posting this HERE.
As long as the tale of the hunt is told by the hunter, and not the lion, it will favor the hunter.
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Pix Severus
Empty You
2816
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Posted - 2016.02.05 03:22:13 -
[5] - Quote
Ibutho Inkosi wrote:Oh my goodness! Can I believe my eyes? A carebear PvP-er claiming missiles are OP (potentially). I'm stunned..
Hello friend.
My lord.
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Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
800
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Posted - 2016.02.05 06:13:20 -
[6] - Quote
Though I like the concept of it, for one thing it might be difficult to apply with what it might require behind the scenes in terms of server performance. For another, I'll admit it's interesting, but not a good addition right now at least for timing.
They neither need a buff nor a nerf. They need to be broken down individually and then put back together...again, individually. Key word of phrase is, "individually." Each missile and launcher needs to be looked at separately from the rest; rockets and lights separately, heavies and HAM's separately, conventional and rapids separately. One missile's problem area is not the same for many of the others, so this insistent urge to continuously treat missiles as though they all need the exact same changes across the board, or that every missile must be either bad or stupidly OP'ed because one or two of them are or a few ships make certain ones so will only make things worse. Some missile systems need help, but not all of them need the same things.
Hopefully, CCP will soon be balancing missile among missile, rather than simply just missile among weapon system like they have been for the most part. Things like halving the torp's item volume, giving a bit more punch to heavies, and such are a good start, but they need much more comprehensive detailing before missiles will be in a better way.
"Tomahawks?"
"----in' A, right?"
"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."
"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
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Cecil Montague
PCG Enterprises
83
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Posted - 2016.02.05 07:37:17 -
[7] - Quote
I can see an issue with this in PvE when your missiles re target the trigger ship you were going out of your way to not shoot.
"There is no such thing as an effective segment of Totality" - Bruce Lee: The only man with a Chuck Norris killmail.
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Mithandra
Catastrophic Operations Get Off My Lawn
457
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Posted - 2016.02.05 12:20:58 -
[8] - Quote
An interesting idea, but CCP cut down the amount of drones you can have in space due to server lag.
Now, lets examine your typical golem pilot. All launchers rapid fire. His target explodes, he has 20 missiles in space that now each have to process several calculations to find out where they are and available targets, and run time left, then find a valid target to prosecute....
Now , and here's a wag (wild arsed guess) multiply that by oh lets say 5000 for online mission running missile users. probably high but its a wag.
That's a bucket full of extra calculations required.
I don't see it coming to a test serve near you any time soon.
Eve is the dark haired, totally hot emo gothchild of the gaming community
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Soldarius
O C C U P Y Test Alliance Please Ignore
1458
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Posted - 2016.02.05 14:33:22 -
[9] - Quote
I don't think this would add much to the game other than lag.
As an aside, if you want this kind of functionality, one would also need to include the possibility that said missiles could instead of tracking the intended target, get distracted by things like flares, another ship with a bigger signature, or even the sun.
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
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ISD Fractal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
914
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Posted - 2016.02.05 16:15:04 -
[10] - Quote
Moved to Player Features and Ideas Discussion.
ISD Fractal
Lieutenant
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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smokebaca murchada
Freedom Express Yokai
1
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Posted - 2016.02.05 16:54:09 -
[11] - Quote
Cecil Montague wrote:I can see an issue with this in PvE when your missiles re target the trigger ship you were going out of your way to not shoot.
yes but this is why i like this concept it generates a unique dynamic. It is more a a buff because it eliminates wasted damage but the pilot must have more control in some cases otherwise they could become overwhelmed/ kill something they didnt mean to |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2562
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Posted - 2016.02.05 18:05:54 -
[12] - Quote
smokebaca murchada wrote:Cecil Montague wrote:I can see an issue with this in PvE when your missiles re target the trigger ship you were going out of your way to not shoot. yes but this is why i like this concept it generates a unique dynamic. It is more a a buff because it eliminates wasted damage but the pilot must have more control in some cases otherwise they could become overwhelmed/ kill something they didnt mean to Also in relation to the flares/ harder calculations ect, it would not be hard to reprogram The missiles are already in space, and if the target dies before the missile reaches said target they continue to exist for a short period of time before disappearing (typically the max flight time of the missile), if the missile was designed to be redirected it is not like it would double its range it would simply try and hit the next closest target if it could. This would not bog down the game at all because currently the missile is already in existence they would simply change its path.
The server has to check where the missile is in space and where all other potential targets are and then select one before assigning a new vector to the missile. It has to do so for every missiles already in flight at the same time because they all lose their targets at the same time of course.
And then you tell me this would not cause a large performance hit. |
Ibutho Inkosi
Irubo Kovu
102
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Posted - 2016.02.05 18:18:31 -
[13] - Quote
Get a real computer, and drop your bargain basement ISP, then we'll discuss "performance."
You can't just hit any of any targets...you have to have something targeted FIRST. If you target the trigger ship, then hey...you need a hot time in the old town to teach you NOT to do that.
As long as the tale of the hunt is told by the hunter, and not the lion, it will favor the hunter.
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2562
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Posted - 2016.02.05 18:26:08 -
[14] - Quote
Ibutho Inkosi wrote:Get a real computer, and drop your bargain basement ISP, then we'll discuss "performance."
You can't just hit any of any targets...you have to have something targeted FIRST. If you target the trigger ship, then hey...you need a hot time in the old town to teach you NOT to do that.
Or you can tank your ship so a random trigger pop does not kill you...
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Wolfgang Jannesen
BRETHREN MOONS
2
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Posted - 2016.02.05 18:53:28 -
[15] - Quote
At the rate missiles travel that thing only has a second or two to find a new target, I think it makes sense why that volley would be wasted otherwise. This isn't something that missiles need, rather a nice bonus that you personally would like to see. It isn't balance but more than anything it isn't necessary when good trigger discipline and drone skills exist. |
smokebaca murchada
Freedom Express Yokai
1
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Posted - 2016.02.05 19:49:40 -
[16] - Quote
Wolfgang Jannesen wrote:At the rate missiles travel that thing only has a second or two to find a new target, I think it makes sense why that volley would be wasted otherwise. This isn't something that missiles need, rather a nice bonus that you personally would like to see. It isn't balance but more than anything it isn't necessary when good trigger discipline and drone skills exist.
I am looking for something to make missile boats viable in incursions is my main objective, when they are nearly 100% discredited to me that is a striking balance issue, oftentimes the only reason a missile boat is picked is with a weak fleet or nothing else is available
if you have a suggestion i would love to hear it, also this as stated before would be a unique change and not just a straight buff.
Or maybe make missile apply instant damage like everything else, but that just seems absurd |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2562
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Posted - 2016.02.05 21:58:02 -
[17] - Quote
smokebaca murchada wrote:Wolfgang Jannesen wrote:At the rate missiles travel that thing only has a second or two to find a new target, I think it makes sense why that volley would be wasted otherwise. This isn't something that missiles need, rather a nice bonus that you personally would like to see. It isn't balance but more than anything it isn't necessary when good trigger discipline and drone skills exist. I am looking for something to make missile boats viable in incursions is my main objective, when they are nearly 100% discredited to me that is a striking balance issue, oftentimes the only reason a missile boat is picked is with a weak fleet or nothing else is available if you have a suggestion i would love to hear it, also this as stated before would be a unique change and not just a straight buff. Or maybe make missile apply instant damage like everything else, but that just seems absurd
You could do like every player in EVE and use the right tool for the job instead of asking for your happer to be amde good at handling screws... |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
743
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Posted - 2016.02.05 22:36:30 -
[18] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:smokebaca murchada wrote:Wolfgang Jannesen wrote:At the rate missiles travel that thing only has a second or two to find a new target, I think it makes sense why that volley would be wasted otherwise. This isn't something that missiles need, rather a nice bonus that you personally would like to see. It isn't balance but more than anything it isn't necessary when good trigger discipline and drone skills exist. I am looking for something to make missile boats viable in incursions is my main objective, when they are nearly 100% discredited to me that is a striking balance issue, oftentimes the only reason a missile boat is picked is with a weak fleet or nothing else is available if you have a suggestion i would love to hear it, also this as stated before would be a unique change and not just a straight buff. Or maybe make missile apply instant damage like everything else, but that just seems absurd You could do like every player in EVE and use the right tool for the job instead of asking for your happer to be amde good at handling screws...
Or he could create his own incursion fleet composition that uses missiles. I dont do incursions, so i could be wrong. But are missile ships not used mainly because of travel time, or more because the NPCs shoot down the missiles?
If its because of travel time and people wanting to min/max then figure out how to make missile ships work in an incursion for you. Make a fleet and grab some like minded individuals and have at it. No changes needed just for incursions.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2957
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Posted - 2016.02.05 23:19:12 -
[19] - Quote
Missile boats aren't used in incursions because they don't do well at contests. Because the other fleet can see your long range missiles flying at their target and shoot it out from underneath your fleet therefore winning the contest. Additionally there never used to be a missile based pirate battleship, which meant you couldn't get as much bling on missile boats as you could on turrets. This only recently got changed, and the Barghest also solves the contest problem fairly well due to it's significantly higher missile speed. But communities already have their doctrines down and don't explore much any more.
So missiles are quite viable in incursions from a PvE point of view, and targeting missiles would cause significant issues in PvP missile balance. |
smokebaca murchada
Freedom Express Yokai
1
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Posted - 2016.02.05 23:21:48 -
[20] - Quote
i think the point is being missed i am looking for a quality of life change not a game breaking change, also to answer the person saying use the right tool for the job,
you are right using the right tool for the job is very important
but you are missing one thing in almost all cases a gunship or drone ship is used over missile boats because of efficiency. The only true thing that caladari ships excels at is range everything else there is a better substitute except for maybe the tengu which is still very strong in solo pve (but even then you wont ever see this ship in incursions ect)
the only reasons certain missile ships like the tengu golem ect excel isn't necesarily because of missiles but because of the bonuses from the ship itself which make up for the lack luster missiles
To be fair I fly almost exclusively with missile boats because i like them and they are in an ok spot
but no where near amazing |
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smokebaca murchada
Freedom Express Yokai
1
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Posted - 2016.02.05 23:23:08 -
[21] - Quote
So missiles are quite viable in incursions from a PvE point of view, and targeting missiles would cause significant issues in PvP missile balance.[/quote]
you can alrady target missiles in pvp but in eve it is much better to play offensive and dictate the playing field than to play defensive in most cases |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2957
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Posted - 2016.02.05 23:39:54 -
[22] - Quote
Retargeting missiles. Please try and learn context for when spell check has changed something.
Additionally QoL changes do not affect game balance and are usually UI related. This is not a QoL change, this is a balance change. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
1235
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Posted - 2016.02.06 03:59:36 -
[23] - Quote
My personal opinion;
The change that needs to be made is that missile flight time and velocity need to be rebalanced based off their respective launchers and ships that use them.
What do I mean by this?
Well, missile ranges should remain the same, however, their should never be more than one volley in space when shooting max range, based on the ship with the highest rof using said missiles.
Basically, you would never have more than one volley in space, unless using rapid launchers. This does not effect application, as this is determined by exp radius and velocity. While a battleship class missile may now be able to actually catch a small, fast moving target, they still wouldn't be able to apply effectively without extreme assistance from modules, skills, and perhaps support.
This would also help to make HML, cruise, and torp launchers more viable outside of PVE. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2957
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Posted - 2016.02.06 05:37:34 -
[24] - Quote
Volley management is meant to be part of missiles. And trying to change RoF in the way you are suggesting Joe would either cause missiles to be far too fast and thus introduce other significant bugs, or have far too much alpha. I.E. Cruise can easily go out to 200km on some ships. Trying to make it so you only have one volley in the air while maintaining current DPS would cause massive issues. Either missile velocity would have to be something like 40k/s in which case you could lose up to 40k range in some cases depending on server tick, or volley damage would have to massively go up in order to support a RoF of 20s or slower.
I'm not against a higher velocity on most missiles. They should be able to easily overtake a ship of their intended class using a MWD. So double the normal velocity you would expect for the fastest ship of their target class with a normal T2 MWD is about the point I'd be expecting as a bare minimum. But you can't go too far. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2898
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Posted - 2016.02.06 08:13:32 -
[25] - Quote
smokebaca murchada wrote:As a fair balance change they could make this target anything other than the original, i mean friend or foe. People will have to set security to red in order to use them in empire space.
They need to reliably not ever shoot friendlies.
FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."
Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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MIKE Commander
Setenta Corp AL3XAND3R.
7
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Posted - 2016.02.06 14:19:23 -
[26] - Quote
I like this idea and i believe it should be done. But there are some things that must be considered. For example someone said to be able not to hit the trigger in a mission or not to hit a friendly ship by accident, this could be controlled by setting the following mechanic in place. Missiles that end up in space without a target as their last target has been destroyed by the previous missile volley should try to hit the nearest next target which the pilot has already targeted. So in this way your missiles will be hitting only stuff you wish, as you have already targeted and if you haven`t targeted anything at all then the missile won`t hit anything at all. Also to introduce a balancing factor to the game CCP could introduce a new skill that you could train to master this new mechanic. For example a skill that gives a CHANCE to your missiles to hit another ship upon destruction of the last one that has been fired upon. This way not every missile that ends up without a valid target could change path and shoot another ship, it could be a chance related, dictate by skills. Also the missile should have enough velocity and fuel to reach the next nearest targeted by the pilot target, otherwise it should just poof in space.
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smokebaca murchada
Freedom Express Yokai
1
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Posted - 2016.02.06 17:30:20 -
[27] - Quote
MIKE Commander wrote:I like this idea and i believe it should be done. But there are some things that must be considered. For example someone said to be able not to hit the trigger in a mission or not to hit a friendly ship by accident, this could be controlled by setting the following mechanic in place. Missiles that end up in space without a target as their last target has been destroyed by the previous missile volley should try to hit the nearest next target which the pilot has already targeted. So in this way your missiles will be hitting only stuff you wish, as you have already targeted and if you haven`t targeted anything at all then the missile won`t hit anything at all. Also to introduce a balancing factor to the game CCP could introduce a new skill that you could train to master this new mechanic. For example a skill that gives a CHANCE to your missiles to hit another ship upon destruction of the last one that has been fired upon. This way not every missile that ends up without a valid target could change path and shoot another ship, it could be a chance related, dictate by skills. Also the missile should have enough velocity and fuel to reach the next nearest targeted by the pilot target, otherwise it should just poof in space.
this person said it perfectly
also having only one missile in space would most like not be achievable simply because of travel rates, unless missiles were completely revamped to operate closer to gunships |
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