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Varrinox
Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
148
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Posted - 2016.02.09 13:48:04 -
[1] - Quote
In my opinion this is far to high.
I understand CCP wanting to make some monetary gain from this but such a huge cost is well out of order in my opinion. Here is my thinking.
Character trading has a 2 plex transfer cost, for any amount of SP. For example I recently sold a 31mil SP toon costing 2.3billion in plex transfer cost. [roughly]
To transfer 31million SP via extractors would cost 62 extractors equal to 62,000 aurum give or take some for the sales of 5% and 10% on bundles. 1 plex gives 3500 aurum. 17.7 PLEX required to transfer that example alts SP via extractors. Costing nearly 20billion isk.
Nearly a tenfold increase in exchange of SP from player to play [not character to character] I fully appreciate that this SP is going from 1 character to a character of your choice in to a skill of your choice. But such a vast increase in price seems completely unjustified to me.
The numbers I have quoted here are indeed based upon 1 unscientific poll of my own experience but I suspect around 30mil is a reasonable average for traded characters. Ones with more SP make this an even bigger increase in cost per SP and vice versa less SP toons decrease the cost per SP.
In conclusion CCP you introduced and billed this as a feature to allow players to exchange SP for a variety of reasons from helping new pilots catch up to FCs getting pilots in to new doctrine among others. New pilots realistically will not be able to afford this cost unless they throw real life cash at Eve, nor will many FCs be willing to burden such a cost just to change doctrines. In concept this is a great idea which I had big hopes for but fact you have put such a huge profit margin for yourselves has ruined it for all but the people with hundreds of billions in their wallet who just want to throw more SP on to their alts so they can multibox more.
TLDR - CCPlease stop making "features" for players that just fatten your wallet via plex prices increasing. Salt confirmed. Edit - If this is wrong forum for this please redirect me to the correct place for the feedback on this feature as after looking it was not obvious.
PS. - The idea I have is make the cost of extractors more like 100-250 aurum each not 1000 |
Rivr Luzade
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
2286
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Posted - 2016.02.09 13:59:48 -
[2] - Quote
That conclusion is the entire point of skins, apparel and the SP trading: More money for CCP without any added gameplay benefits. And it is conditioning players to accept the Play With Your Credit Card mentality instead of play your time and enthusiasm. Sadly, people in my alliance have already asked to consider donating SP to younger players to get them up to standards.
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
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Aluanna
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
5
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Posted - 2016.02.09 18:06:52 -
[3] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:That conclusion is the entire point of skins, apparel and the SP trading: More money for CCP without any added gameplay benefits. And it is conditioning players to accept the Play With Your Credit Card mentality instead of play your time and enthusiasm. Sadly, people in my alliance have already asked to consider donating SP to younger players to get them up to standards.
If players in your alliance aren't up to standards, one might wonder why they are in the alliance? If you accept new recruits in order to train them, surely your standards should include lower SP toons? :)
On topic: I dunno tbh, I'm on the fence about the whole thing, while I like the idea of essentially respeccing SP I wasted in skills I no longer use, paying for enough extractors to respec adds up to a hefty sum VERY quickly.
2.5 Euro per extractor may not sound like a lot.. but neither is 500k SP.. If you trained for a month you'd been 4 extractors instantly, 5 if you account for the SP loss of injecting.
suddenly that 2.5 Euro is adding up to ten bucks. on top of the sub fee.
CCP, theres a reason they are called MICROtransactions. and yes, this statement applies to pretty much the entire gaming industry today..
Ideas for missile launchers to make firing missiles more interesting/rewarding
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Iain Cariaba
2617
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Posted - 2016.02.09 18:37:54 -
[4] - Quote
And the incessant whining about the cost of skill extractors gets added to the incessant whining about the price of plex.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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Rivr Luzade
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
2293
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Posted - 2016.02.09 18:49:26 -
[5] - Quote
Aluanna wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:That conclusion is the entire point of skins, apparel and the SP trading: More money for CCP without any added gameplay benefits. And it is conditioning players to accept the Play With Your Credit Card mentality instead of play your time and enthusiasm. Sadly, people in my alliance have already asked to consider donating SP to younger players to get them up to standards. If players in your alliance aren't up to standards, one might wonder why they are in the alliance? If you accept new recruits in order to train them, surely your standards should include lower SP toons? :) Giving new players a chance to get their hands dirty in Null sec. It's not like we do not have them not covered (every doctrine we use has new player friendly ships), but some do not like to fly Mauluses or Vigils in every fleet (despite the fact that these ships are important to make Tengus or Hurricanes hit harder or disrupt the opponent's logistics), they insist on either bringing underskilled DPS or logi ships or not participate at all. But thanks to skill injectors, this is a thing of the past soon. Now I can demand from them to go to Jita, buy SP and then get their preferred ships properly trained.
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
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Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
898
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Posted - 2016.02.09 18:55:59 -
[6] - Quote
Want to hear another side of this story?
I've been selling basic characters for research, scanning, mining, freighters, traders, covert ops cynos, tengus, basic carriers, ages ago noctis characters.
Guess what. At 800 aur per 500k SP (extractor) and with the reduced price of injectors because of over-supply it will be cheaper to buy SP than it is to transfer a character with less than about 8-9m SP (if you account for training costs past the first 1.7 month).
So why don't you stop meaning about how it's expensive because it is not, it is too damn cheap and for low SP characters this will eventually be as cheap as training certs for secondary characters.
And you better believe I know damn well what I'm talking about.
I've been selling stuff long before I started using Arya to post on forums, you can check my history if you think I'm making things up.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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Rasputin Demonde
Alwar Industry
5
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Posted - 2016.02.09 19:29:43 -
[7] - Quote
I agree . This is just another end around 'pay to win' scheme by CCP .
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Droidster
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
158
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Posted - 2016.02.09 20:04:46 -
[8] - Quote
I completely agree with the OP, in fact, I would go farther and saying that selling extractors for money is pay to win.
I went to the market today to try to find the BPO that makes skill extractors and could not find it. How are skill extractors made? I wondered. Are they data site drops? Then after some more web searching I find out that they are not drops and are not made, they are sold for cash by the game company. It is a pay-to-win system.
I am extremely upset about this. After playing the game for many years, it is very upsetting to see the company inventing these pay-to-win schemes to try to boost revenue instead of trying to attract legitimate subscribers through improved gameplay.
Pay to win is exploitative and yields temporary benefits at best. By doing this the company is alienating its player base.
Runes of Magic just blew up and failed last year after players got tired of their pay-to-win model.
This is a very very bad thing for EVE.
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Kuetlzelcoatl
28
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Posted - 2016.02.09 20:09:09 -
[9] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:....Sadly, people in my alliance have already asked to consider donating SP to younger players to get them up to standards.
That was mentioned as a possible drawback to trading SP, but most just said that was a silly assumption and we should look for better Corps.... The problem is that it is simply human nature, which many will never understand. CCP does!
It is sad to see a game developer take advantage of such things for apparently profit reasons.
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Kuetlzelcoatl
28
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Posted - 2016.02.09 20:10:59 -
[10] - Quote
Droidster wrote:I completely agree with the OP, in fact, I would go farther and saying that selling extractors for money is pay to win....
....This is a very very bad thing for EVE.
Yup, all good points.
Being silly rich IRL now gives you a complete advantage in Eve Online.
Pay to win... Live on TQ. |
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4682
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Posted - 2016.02.09 22:10:34 -
[11] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:Want to hear another side of this story?
I've been selling basic characters for research, scanning, mining, freighters, traders, covert ops cynos, tengus, basic carriers, ages ago noctis characters.
Guess what. At 800 aur per 500k SP (extractor) and with the reduced price of injectors because of over-supply it will be cheaper to buy SP than it is to transfer a character with less than about 8-9m SP (if you account for training costs past the first 1.7 month).
So why don't you stop meaning about how it's expensive because it is not, it is too damn cheap and for low SP characters this will eventually be as cheap as training certs for secondary characters.
And you better believe I know damn well what I'm talking about.
I've been selling stuff long before I started using Arya to post on forums, you can check my history if you think I'm making things up.
TL&DR: people who are complaining about cost of extractors never had macro/microeconomics. This stuff will bite CCP in the ass super hard when the effects of market canibalism show up.
--edit-- What I'm saying is that game would be better off without this or that there should at least be a limit to how much SP you can inject per month/year.
800 ISK/SP is low, you are not factoring in all the costs and you are also not factoring in any sort of mark up. Those number represent the costs of SP, not the final market price.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Grimosa Thellere
Myka Inc.
0
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Posted - 2016.02.09 22:16:22 -
[12] - Quote
we can discuss, but CCP isn't interested in our opinion |
Civire Desire
MinMatar Mining Manufacturing and Mayhem
5
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Posted - 2016.02.09 23:29:00 -
[13] - Quote
OOOH!! OOOH!! OOOH!! Now that we has Gold Skill Points, when can we buy Gold Ammo?? (/endsarcasm) |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2902
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Posted - 2016.02.10 17:14:56 -
[14] - Quote
Varrinox wrote:In my opinion this is far to high.
I understand CCP wanting to make some monetary gain from this but such a huge cost is well out of order in my opinion. Setting the cost ten times as high doesn't give CCP ten times the profit. Setting it too high could even cost them profit due to the people who choose not to use the service. I think that's the key aspect here, and I think this is a feature that players should be discouraged to use.
FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."
Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1845
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Posted - 2016.02.10 17:45:50 -
[15] - Quote
Given that there really isn't any variable cost to CCP for extractors, the price could only be said to be "too high" if reducing the price by a given percentage would result in a proportionally larger increase in sales, such that the total revenue generated were higher at the lower price point.
That very well may be the case eventually, but for launch day/week? Doubtful.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
911
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Posted - 2016.02.10 20:08:43 -
[16] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
800 ISK/SP is low, you are not factoring in all the costs and you are also not factoring in any sort of mark up. Those number represent the costs of SP, not the final market price.
Aur not isk, and the markup is only high now, a lot of people want to play for free even if that means they can't train skills, this will result in training and selling SP to offset plexing costs and when the demand for injectors goes down the supply will keep going up driving the prices of injectors close to cost of extractors.
This is not a far fetched speculation at all even at 50% markup over the extractor this is still a very good substitute for training certs and straight better for low SP characters.
This will not be in full display for at least a few months so you can chill your beans and call me an idiot for now. In 8 months or so if the extractor aur prices remain the same the total cost of 500k SP will be 1100 and in a year it might even go under 1000.
I think it is far more appropriate to put an AUR price tag equivalent on this stuff because it is DIRECTLY related to PLEX price and AUR has a constant exchange index whereas ISK does not.
Current price of SP injector is at around 1630 AUR, the limit to how low that can go is 800 AUR which it will never reach obviously, but it can get pretty damn close. To get your isk equivalent calculate the exchange by dividing PLEX price with 3500 (the amount of AUR you get per PLEX)
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
1025
|
Posted - 2016.02.10 20:56:16 -
[17] - Quote
@Pay2Win whiners:
CCP is a business. Businesses are in this to make money. Players asked for this. CCP saw a business opportunity. CCP delivered. Don't like it. Don't use it. I'm not using it. |
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
4951
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 06:06:47 -
[18] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:@Pay2Win whiners:
CCP is a business. Businesses are in this to make money. Players asked for this. CCP saw a business opportunity. CCP delivered. Don't like it. Don't use it. I'm not using it. Can I have some of your excess SP? I'll even pay for the extractors...
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
1029
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 14:41:49 -
[19] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Estella Osoka wrote:@Pay2Win whiners:
CCP is a business. Businesses are in this to make money. Players asked for this. CCP saw a business opportunity. CCP delivered. Don't like it. Don't use it. I'm not using it. Can I have some of your excess SP? I'll even pay for the extractors...
I don't have excess SP. I actually went through and looked to see what I could do without, and then thought, "Chances are, once I get rid of it; CCP will make it so it is useful again." |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2588
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 16:02:27 -
[20] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Estella Osoka wrote:@Pay2Win whiners:
CCP is a business. Businesses are in this to make money. Players asked for this. CCP saw a business opportunity. CCP delivered. Don't like it. Don't use it. I'm not using it. Can I have some of your excess SP? I'll even pay for the extractors... I don't have excess SP. I actually went through and looked to see what I could do without, and then thought, "Chances are, once I get rid of it; CCP will make it so it is useful again."
I'm thinking of removing my mining skills just to test this... |
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2588
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 16:03:27 -
[21] - Quote
Droidster wrote:I completely agree with the OP, in fact, I would go farther and saying that selling extractors for money is pay to win.
I went to the market today to try to find the BPO that makes skill extractors and could not find it. How are skill extractors made? I wondered. Are they data site drops? Then after some more web searching I find out that they are not drops and are not made, they are sold for cash by the game company. It is a pay-to-win system.
I am extremely upset about this. After playing the game for many years, it is very upsetting to see the company inventing these pay-to-win schemes to try to boost revenue instead of trying to attract legitimate subscribers through improved gameplay.
Pay to win is exploitative and yields temporary benefits at best. By doing this the company is alienating its player base.
Runes of Magic just blew up and failed last year after players got tired of their pay-to-win model.
This is a very very bad thing for EVE.
So we can sell extractors like we have been selling PLEX for how many years and the extractors are a problem? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4692
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 16:19:38 -
[22] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
800 ISK/SP is low, you are not factoring in all the costs and you are also not factoring in any sort of mark up. Those number represent the costs of SP, not the final market price.
Aur not isk, and the markup is only high now, a lot of people want to play for free even if that means they can't train skills, this will result in training and selling SP to offset plexing costs and when the demand for injectors goes down the supply will keep going up driving the prices of injectors close to cost of extractors. This is not a far fetched speculation at all even at 50% markup over the extractor this is still a very good substitute for training certs and straight better for low SP characters. This will not be in full display for at least a few months so you can chill your beans and call me an idiot for now. In 8 months or so if the extractor aur prices remain the same the total cost of 500k SP will be 1100 and in a year it might even go under 1000. I think it is far more appropriate to put an AUR price tag equivalent on this stuff because it is DIRECTLY related to PLEX price and AUR has a constant exchange index whereas ISK does not. Current price of SP injector is at around 1630 AUR, the limit to how low that can go is 800 AUR which it will never reach obviously, but it can get pretty damn close. To get your isk equivalent calculate the exchange by dividing PLEX price with 3500 (the amount of AUR you get per PLEX)
You're right AUR is not ISK, my mistake.
However, 800 AUR is about 550 ISK/SP which is even worse!
Based on current prices (yay for working from home so I can log in an alt in Jita....)
Extractor Price: 296.5 million ISK Injector Price: 645 million ISK
Suggesting a price 697 ISK/ SP which is still probably pretty low. After all, a PLEX is 1.27 billion for 30 days which works out to about 705 ISK/day, assuming that training for 30 days, on average, yields say 1.8 million SP.
Although...let me throw this out there. A player who pays for a year (in the U.S.) will pay only $10.95/month. Now he might se the cost of that SP at 396 ISK/SP. So to him a price of 697 looks pretty good. Because over the course of 10 months he could PLEX for 9 of those months*. Provided that this is an alt who has other skills not being drained...might look like a good option for some people.
*It is actually close to 10 PLEX...so depending timing you could conceivable PLEX your account.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2907
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 18:49:44 -
[23] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:@Pay2Win whiners:
CCP is a business. Businesses are in this to make money. Players asked for this. CCP saw a business opportunity. CCP delivered. Don't like it. Don't use it. I'm not using it. @Pay2Win whiners:
If you think skillpoints will make you win then by all means buy lots of injectors. See if it makes you win.
FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."
Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
1031
|
Posted - 2016.02.11 21:35:53 -
[24] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Estella Osoka wrote:@Pay2Win whiners:
CCP is a business. Businesses are in this to make money. Players asked for this. CCP saw a business opportunity. CCP delivered. Don't like it. Don't use it. I'm not using it. @Pay2Win whiners: If you think skillpoints will make you win then by all means buy lots of injectors. See if it makes you win.
I know it will not make you "win", that's why I'm not using it.
There is going to be some noob out there who pays money for this and then gets his ship ass-plodded, and then he will come and whine some more. |
Siginek
BAND of MAGNUS THE R0NIN
18
|
Posted - 2016.02.12 08:39:11 -
[25] - Quote
Skill extractors are like paying twice for same thing ... first someone pays full price of plex to be able to "create" those SP ... and after that with extractor price you pay almost same amount to take those skills out and sell them ... i have no problem with extractors, i have problem with buying them for AUR, becasue till now AUR shop was comething like cosmetic shop, skillpoints took it to new level of pay to win ... what is next? ship hulls for aurum? officer mods for aurum? ... AUR shop should remain cosmetic as it was and something with such potential significance to gameplay should be acquirable by gameplay, not by credit card, CCP is just breaking its philosophy of player driven market when they put credit cards into it ...
edit:
And as it was said ... instead of trying to get new players into game CCP is trying to milk out those who remain ... i wonder how will this end ... RIP Eve 2020? |
Varrinox
Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
151
|
Posted - 2016.02.12 13:01:17 -
[26] - Quote
Siginek wrote:Skill extractors are like paying twice for same thing ... first someone pays full price of plex to be able to "create" those SP ... and after that with extractor price you pay almost same amount to take those skills out and sell them ... i have no problem with extractors, i have problem with buying them for AUR, becasue till now AUR shop was comething like cosmetic shop, skillpoints took it to new level of pay to win ... what is next? ship hulls for aurum? officer mods for aurum? ... AUR shop should remain cosmetic as it was and something with such potential significance to gameplay should be acquirable by gameplay, not by credit card, CCP is just breaking its philosophy of player driven market when they put credit cards into it ...
edit:
And as it was said ... instead of trying to get new players into game CCP is trying to milk out those who remain ... i wonder how will this end ...
The paying twice for SP is a really good point Siginek, I had never thought of that, preps to you. Also spot on with the milking of remaining player base
You heard it here CCP, making players pay twice for SP and treating us like cattle is bad mmk. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2592
|
Posted - 2016.02.12 13:21:43 -
[27] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Estella Osoka wrote:@Pay2Win whiners:
CCP is a business. Businesses are in this to make money. Players asked for this. CCP saw a business opportunity. CCP delivered. Don't like it. Don't use it. I'm not using it. @Pay2Win whiners: If you think skillpoints will make you win then by all means buy lots of injectors. See if it makes you win. I know it will not make you "win", that's why I'm not using it. There is going to be some noob out there who pays money for this and then gets his ship ass-plodded, and then he will come and whine some more.
Just like buying a character was not making them win either. Nothing changed beside buying it all in parts instead of pre-packaged combo. |
MIKE Commander
Setenta Corp AL3XAND3R.
9
|
Posted - 2016.02.12 21:12:12 -
[28] - Quote
Buying a character is way different then this. The character you are buying you have to play with and when you buy it you buy the good and the bad part of it along with the reputation and history behind it. Those extractors give the option to players to instantly train skills just by paying with a credit card. Every rich boy that wishes to play and have a character that some honest player could have trained for years, making mistakes and taking poor decisions he could avoid with this. If he did a poor decision or a mistake he will just buy another extractor and use it. This changes the whole skill training system that this game had for a decade and more. This that it was unique now is just another normal thing that happens i most games. Now you can buy whatever you wish with real cash and play asap not wait a few years to train the skills. If such an item had to exist in the game ( to which i am strongly against) that item should not be sold for AUR, that item should be dropped and the dropped rate should be so tiny that whenever it does it should cost billions. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2592
|
Posted - 2016.02.12 21:32:01 -
[29] - Quote
MIKE Commander wrote:Buying a character is way different then this. The character you are buying you have to play with and when you buy it you buy the good and the bad part of it along with the reputation and history behind it. Those extractors give the option to players to instantly train skills just by paying with a credit card. Every rich boy that wishes to play and have a character that some honest player could have trained for years, making mistakes and taking poor decisions he could avoid with this. If he did a poor decision or a mistake he will just buy another extractor and use it. This changes the whole skill training system that this game had for a decade and more. This that it was unique now is just another normal thing that happens i most games. Now you can buy whatever you wish with real cash and play asap not wait a few years to train the skills. If such an item had to exist in the game ( to which i am strongly against) that item should not be sold for AUR, that item should be dropped and the dropped rate should be so tiny that whenever it does it should cost billions.
If you wanted to fly ship X, you just bought a character that could fly ship X no matter what mistakes were made on it or you had made on your initial character. There are already character for sales for pretty much any ship type that isn't completely bad.
Also, buying SP still require people to have some for sale. No amount of credit card will give you filled injectors if there are none on the market. |
Pandora Deninard
Combat Applications and Logistics Group
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.12 23:07:39 -
[30] - Quote
While I completely agree with OP, CCP has presumably already read the massive 600-upvote reddit thread and all the whining on here about it and chosen to ignore player feedback on the issue in the interest of supporting the "greed is good" mentality.
So.....yeah, we will have to just suck it up and move on. |
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