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Raketefrau
Caldari
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.01 17:24:00 -
[1]
These are the 2 most prime examples of how broken the T2 market is, and they're the 2 most glaring omissions from Invention.
What's up with that? 70million for a freaking cloak? That's just insane. And no love for it in invention? That's even worse.
Come on, a little love for the covops folks, please....
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Dark Shikari
Caldari
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.02.01 17:28:00 -
[2]
AFAIK you can invent them from prototype cloaks. There's a 50% chance you'll get an impcloak, 50% chance you'll get a covops.
-[23] Member-
EVE-Trance Radio! (DSTrance channel ingame) |
Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2007.02.01 17:39:00 -
[3]
invention can't change every price: the covops are simply powerful and worth every penny. and the demand is there; atm it seems, we could go higher with their price - invention might merely prevent that from happening if someone gets lucky and produces ~20 to ~50
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MMoroz
Beyond Divinity Inc
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.01 18:14:00 -
[4]
Only that???
Every armor shield mod around 1000% higher than 5-6 months ago( beside dmg control)
turrets and launchers the same - beside ammar`s i think( but not sure )
MWD, AB
In short full ship equipment price went like 5-10 times higher than 5-6 months ago. And CCP and people are bothering why people don`t want to fight in smaller groups with good ships etc - look at prices maybe you will find a hint. Higher prices means more ratting, mission whoring - wchich is boring for most of us.
Reasons for keeping "t2 bpo lottery":
-0.1% population of eve - or something like close to it
no other, interesting when CCP will get it and understand that something is ****** up here.
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Sessho Seki
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Posted - 2007.02.01 19:02:00 -
[5]
[engage sarcasm]
Shhhhh!
For heaven’s sake, CCP is doing their very best to use Invention to distract from how broken T2 is… if you keep drawing attention to it, more people may also realize this and request CCP fix what they have F.U.B.A.R.-ed so bad that a complete tear-down and rebuild likely wouldn’t correct all that’s wrong with it.
Invention is the tiny Band-Aid being used to cover the cannon wound on the chest of EVE that’s purging blood just as fast as it can move. The best thing that can be done is to ignore the problem and it will remain just as bad, if not get even worse, than it has been all along. After all, what good would a poorly implemented, ineffective, and impotent “fix” for the problem be if CCP was then requested to actually go back and fix the entire problem that cause the inception of the invention system in the first place?
It’s simply madness to actually expect an unacceptable problem that’s been ignored successfully for this long to actually warrant a remedy when the policy of “deny deny deny” has been in place for so long, obviously no one will ever admit that there is indeed something amiss... at least not with the genuine intention of fixing what is at issue anyway.
Yes, the best thing we can all do is just “forget” about ever letting the market forces control the market, as that’s completely ludicrous. EVE needs artificial influences on entire sectors of the market to maintain the instabilities in areas that could easily be corrected by allowing the macroeconomy to manage itself (you know, like every other market) and only influence it with true isk sinks (insurance, clones, etc.) to control inflationary pressures.
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MMoroz
Beyond Divinity Inc
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.01 19:52:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Sessho Seki
[engage sarcasm]
Shhhhh!
For heavenÆs sake, CCP is doing their very best to use Invention to distract from how broken T2 isà if you keep drawing attention to it, more people may also realize this and request CCP fix what they have F.U.B.A.R.-ed so bad that a complete tear-down and rebuild likely wouldnÆt correct all thatÆs wrong with it.
Invention is the tiny Band-Aid being used to cover the cannon wound on the chest of EVE thatÆs purging blood just as fast as it can move. The best thing that can be done is to ignore the problem and it will remain just as bad, if not get even worse, than it has been all along. After all, what good would a poorly implemented, ineffective, and impotent ôfixö for the problem be if CCP was then requested to actually go back and fix the entire problem that cause the inception of the invention system in the first place?
ItÆs simply madness to actually expect an unacceptable problem thatÆs been ignored successfully for this long to actually warrant a remedy when the policy of ôdeny deny denyö has been in place for so long, obviously no one will ever admit that there is indeed something amiss... at least not with the genuine intention of fixing what is at issue anyway.
Yes, the best thing we can all do is just ôforgetö about ever letting the market forces control the market, as thatÆs completely ludicrous. EVE needs artificial influences on entire sectors of the market to maintain the instabilities in areas that could easily be corrected by allowing the macroeconomy to manage itself (you know, like every other market) and only influence it with true isk sinks (insurance, clones, etc.) to control inflationary pressures.
i am sorry i think common sense got me for a sec, it`s alright now
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2007.02.01 20:24:00 -
[7]
hey now... what do we really want...?
let's check the damage controls as an example: internal force field arrays were traded for 25-30mil and the price was (close to) stable (aka, they were actually bought). then, two months ago, DCII came up and now we're at around 10mil.
yay for T2 i'd say.
yes, the BPO lottery idea looked great and it would have worked if continuous seeding had covered an ever growing number of customers (amount of players as well as number of skillwise able ones).
anyway - now we have a base supply via t2 BPOs, which is necessary (i suppose no-one is going to invent tracking disruptors II in a while); the price will be regulated by invention. the latter will be profitable, if prices go beyond...what? 10-15mil?
looks like a decent threshold to me...
which brings us to hulks: ~200mil a piece with the current invention system, is not a good idea... "yay! cheap" of course, but do we really need 10x (my estimate  ) more triple-BS-spawn-tanking 0.0 miners and thus a zydrine price of... 500isk p.p? the EIB scam would look meaningless
lets have a look at how datacore prices develop. then adjust the ingredients on the hulk invention before we let hulks invention loose, or we'll crash the economy entirely...
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Lucio
Gallente
UK Corp
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.02.01 20:47:00 -
[8]
I think the big problem with the T2 market isn't the lack of all the items, it's the lack of the items that provide unique capabilities.
For example, if there's a shortage of T2 guns, it's not huge deal, T1 guns work nearly as well. Shortage of T2 cloaks however, well then you're stuck because no other ship does the job.
If they could just increase the supply of the unique items I'd be happy.
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Wohoo! No more negative sec status. It's a shame it took me TWO YEARS of Carebearing to get rid of a lousy -1.2 |
Vasectomizer
Pwnage Unlimited
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Posted - 2007.02.01 21:06:00 -
[9]
They could do EVE a favor and give me a covops cloak BPO and I'll grind out BPC's and sell them for reasonable costs.
PWNAGE UNLIMITED: Don't PWN us, we'll PWN-U. |
emepror
Gallente
Magners Marauders
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Posted - 2007.02.01 21:25:00 -
[10]
thats what everyone says until they see the isk they can make
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Ozzie Asrail
FATAL REVELATIONS
FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.01 21:29:00 -
[11]
Give it somne time. Invention is still a little messed up but once it gets ballenced a little better i forsee the stupidly priced t2 items to start falling fast.
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MMoroz
Beyond Divinity Inc
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.01 21:30:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Roemy Schneider
hey now... what do we really want...?
let's check the damage controls as an example: internal force field arrays were traded for 25-30mil and the price was (close to) stable (aka, they were actually bought). then, two months ago, DCII came up and now we're at around 10mil.
yay for T2 i'd say.
yes, the BPO lottery idea looked great and it would have worked if continuous seeding had covered an ever growing number of customers (amount of players as well as number of skillwise able ones).
anyway - now we have a base supply via t2 BPOs, which is necessary (i suppose no-one is going to invent tracking disruptors II in a while); the price will be regulated by invention. the latter will be profitable, if prices go beyond...what? 10-15mil?
looks like a decent threshold to me...
which brings us to hulks: ~200mil a piece with the current invention system, is not a good idea... "yay! cheap" of course, but do we really need 10x (my estimate ) more triple-BS-spawn-tanking 0.0 miners and thus a zydrine price of... 500isk p.p? the EIB scam would look meaningless
lets have a look at how datacore prices develop. then adjust the ingredients on the hulk invention before we let hulks invention loose, or we'll crash the economy entirely...
First try reading with understanding - i marked dmg controls are excpetion( beside i don`t think there are bpo for this only invetion ).
Second: decide you like "Free market" or you like "Regulated monopoly f*** market"( t2 bpo lottery ). I like first and as world shows second doesn`t work - and i doubt you can argue cause i saw both and know how f*** up is second one and what dmg it does. Hmmmmmmmm no you don`t know a thing about market( your part about zyd/hulks ) - if it is too cheap less people will mine it price will go higher and so on - basic rule of market. So simply saying bull*** sry but i can`t call it other way.
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Kadreal
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Posted - 2007.02.01 21:46:00 -
[13]
Everyone says it's just supply and demand in action. While true in a sense, the people who hold the BPO control supply, if you build less, or even if you make a bunch but list them all at 80 mil, people can't do much about it. Covert op cloak is really one of the best examples because their is no tech 1 equivalent. Make a tech 1 cloak where you can warp, move 75% slower and perhaps a small resolution penalty and I guarantee that covert op price will more then cut in half. That or put another 10 BPOs in the game to try and break the monopoly.
In the real world economy, if someone was producing items that easily sell for 16 times their production cost, other companies would quickly start research into make their own devices because they'd want a piece of the pie. Unfortunately you can't really do that in eve
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2007.02.01 21:47:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Roemy Schneider on 01/02/2007 21:50:25
uhmm... ouuuh kaeey....
the two aspects about how now we'll have a base supply (T2 BPO) and invention to keep the prices from going overboard, didnt connect in your head?
well let me sum it up for the ADHD....
- T2 BPOs are necessary, no one will invent something that's worth 2mil.
- invention will regulate supplies and thus prices
- powerful stuff needs to be expensive
-> balance of invention must be verified before there's 300hulks sitting in the market.
as the OP said: hulks are the target of invention and the current 16 datacores will not stop the upcoming excessive covetor BPC harressments.
oh.. and DCII invaded the market before revelation
oh.. and everyone said, zyd would never fall below 3000isk, look where we are now and no end in sight
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hotgirl933
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Posted - 2007.02.01 22:08:00 -
[15]
hulk is one CCP are still tweaking it tho
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babylonstew
Caldari
x13
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.01 22:13:00 -
[16]
what about drones?
i checked hammerheads today just out of curiosity, and there is no listen for invention
is it a bug, or is it not possible to invent tech 2 drones?
if thats the case that kinda stinks a bit too tbh
Originally by: Devilish Ledoux
Don't think of it as being kicked out of the Federation; think of it as beating the rush
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Harisdrop
Gallente
ClanKillers
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2007.02.01 22:29:00 -
[17]
The items mentioned here need Meta items to be classed as Inventable. Soo in the future we should seed Dire Gurista Covert Op cloak, Covetor of Minmatar and Dread Drone Hammerhead.
New NPC NPC Market |
Gaogan
Gallente
Solar Storm
X-PACT
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Posted - 2007.02.01 22:39:00 -
[18]
Not possible to invent T2 drones, but it wouldn't be worth it if it was. Cloaks, hulks, and hacs are the most overpriced T2 items in the game, the very kind of things that invention was supposed to bring balence to, yet when it costs 70 million and a lot of trouble to invent a cloak bpc, why bother when you can just buy one from the monopoly for 70 million?
Invention is broken...
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DarkMatter
Amarr
Mineral Aquisition Group
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Posted - 2007.02.01 22:47:00 -
[19]
Quote:
Invention is broken...
CCP relesed it that way on purpose, they are afraid of everyone having tech II...
They are clueless when it comes to industry, have been since they released this damn game...
Building the homestead |
MMoroz
Beyond Divinity Inc
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.02 01:17:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Roemy Schneider
Edited by: Roemy Schneider on 01/02/2007 21:50:25
uhmm... ouuuh kaeey....
the two aspects about how now we'll have a base supply (T2 BPO) and invention to keep the prices from going overboard, didnt connect in your head?
well let me sum it up for the ADHD....
- T2 BPOs are necessary, no one will invent something that's worth 2mil.
- invention will regulate supplies and thus prices
- powerful stuff needs to be expensive
-> balance of invention must be verified before there's 300hulks sitting in the market.
as the OP said: hulks are the target of invention and the current 16 datacores will not stop the upcoming excessive covetor BPC harressments.
oh.. and DCII invaded the market before revelation
oh.. and everyone said, zyd would never fall below 3000isk, look where we are now and no end in sight
Please move to Cube or North Korea you will like that - there is regulated market etc.
I have everything right in my head, unfortanetly i can`t this say about yours.
As i said you don`t understand nothing about economy.market etc.. All the time you are sayin stuff like: it will be too cheap and noone will want produce that etc - before you start putting another crap( can`t call it different ) read about supply/demand - still? read again/again/again( you should get it, it`s quite simple and logical ).
So:
-T2Bpo are not necessary in any way market will regulate it self.
-powerfull stuff needs to be expensvie???? why ??? WTF are you to tell it. It has base price in minerals - so don`t put crap that everyone will be flying titans or whatever - and rest is about SUPPLY/DEMAND. Don`t make GOD of yourself.
As i said "Regulated market"( t2 bpo ) doesn`t work it breaks down very fast we saw that in real world and we see that in Eve( prices of t2 component ). And you know what is funny CCP want to fix it with invention - which is affordable for everyone( ofc not exactly - someone who invented t2 bpo lottery is still there, curse you  ) so with what ->"free market"..... Hey and you know what it is working people are getting money and prices for this components went down - Allelujah it is AMAZING!!!!....Hmm wait a second it is not amazing it is fracking simple SUPPLY/DEMAND on free market. So why not just free BPO T2 market - HELL KNOWS.
So sum it:
A) Your only point is that things will cost less( btw you don`t know that SUPPLY/DEMAND ) - and it`s bad...WHY??? - explain that
About yours two last sentences i don`t see what is the point.
P.S.2
Read carefully what Sessho Seki wrote - it explains a lot too
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Dao 2
The Scope
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Posted - 2007.02.02 01:44:00 -
[21]
t2 was cool in the beginning, well not straight out in the beginning u no theres the omg new stuff prices and they lasted for a while, but when stuff settled down it was alright.
But when u get an ever increasing eve population (probably 4x as many people or even more :|) and u dont seed as many bpos i think u got a problem ;p tbh i think they should have seeded them proportionally, for every x amound of accounds there should be 1 bpo or whatever ;p (active of course :|)
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NEWLY ADDED ON 1/19 (though applies to all posts before ;p)
the usual "I don't represent my corp or alliance" and stuffs like that
Also the gal |
Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2007.02.02 03:16:00 -
[22]
Originally by: MMoroz
[...]About yours two last sentences i don`t see what is the point.
if you can't remember your own words, ok: you thought DCII were purely invented. wrong.
... that there will be a threshold where zydrine will not be mined anymore or at least you speculate it will not be at 500isk much like the entire galaxy thought it would be 3000isk just a few weeks ago. wrong.
now plz, at least consider i have a tiny clue and your two mistakes there might not be the only ones. if it was my use of the word "regulate" that confused you, i'm sorry. rephrase: invention will make sure that T2 BPOs will not cause such excessive prices as last seen with cap rechargers.
and yes, a steady base supply from specialized T2 builders is necessary. And once we approach 50k concurrent users, they will make up maybe only the better half of the T2 market. but at least everything is available and not just the popular/famous stuff the inventors read about in the fitting forums.
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MMoroz
Beyond Divinity Inc
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.02 09:05:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Roemy Schneider
Originally by: MMoroz
[...]About yours two last sentences i don`t see what is the point.
if you can't remember your own words, ok: you thought DCII were purely invented. wrong.
... that there will be a threshold where zydrine will not be mined anymore or at least you speculate it will not be at 500isk much like the entire galaxy thought it would be 3000isk just a few weeks ago. wrong.
now plz, at least consider i have a tiny clue and your two mistakes there might not be the only ones. if it was my use of the word "regulate" that confused you, i'm sorry. rephrase: invention will make sure that T2 BPOs will not cause such excessive prices as last seen with cap rechargers.
and yes, a steady base supply from specialized T2 builders is necessary. And once we approach 50k concurrent users, they will make up maybe only the better half of the T2 market. but at least everything is available and not just the popular/famous stuff the inventors read about in the fitting forums.
Lol still WTF, i said DC II are fricking exception( read it or at least try ). Was i saying ANYTHING about zyd or anyone else here????? I am not the person whic tell how much something should cost you are the one trying - dunno on what basis( i just want to open market and then everyone can try make it better ).
So rephrasing you "please consider" THINKING BEFORE posting again.
So to sum it i aske why are you making fricking communist dictator from yourself - telling people how much things should cost???? And what is your answer - cause they need to( your words:"and yes, a steady base supply from specialized T2 builders is necessary"). Hmmm that explains a lot!!
Sum it:
Your only arguments so far were total mis/non/understanding how market work( you know nothing, no basic rules ), catching me on words, and putting words i didn`t say( zydrine ).
P.S.I said i think there are no bpo for dcII still not sure. I saw first after revelation - but anyway what does it change???
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Viktor VonCarstein
Amarr
Phoenix Industries
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Posted - 2007.02.02 09:14:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Viktor VonCarstein on 02/02/2007 09:10:41
Yeah I must admit I would PvP more if tech 2 was cheaper.
Yeah I know use tech 1 stuff then.
Well so why did I spend my time training to use tech 2.
Problem is now I go out in a Recon, HAC or Tech 2 fitted Battleship it eventually gets killed normally sooner than later. 
Then I have to spend an age mission running or even mining to be able to afford to buy a new ship and fit it out.
So for me high tech 2 prices means much less PvP and more time in high sec mission running.
http://sprayandpray.xippy.co.uk |
MMoroz
Beyond Divinity Inc
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.02 09:25:00 -
[25]
Anyway i don`t want to argue with cause i know you have no arguments - you think "regulated market" is good, whole world and history shows no but your choice( and how corrupting it is - latest events in EVE shows that we have this problem too ).
Just explain that to me - you are the person who has not even basic undeerstanding of how market works, but still you want to tell how much things should cost etc., care to explain why( if you prefer consider you know something but still why you think you are a god )???
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MMoroz
Beyond Divinity Inc
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.02 09:29:00 -
[26]
Edited by: MMoroz on 02/02/2007 09:25:58
Originally by: Viktor VonCarstein
Edited by: Viktor VonCarstein on 02/02/2007 09:10:41
Yeah I must admit I would PvP more if tech 2 was cheaper.
Yeah I know use tech 1 stuff then.
Well so why did I spend my time training to use tech 2.
Problem is now I go out in a Recon, HAC or Tech 2 fitted Battleship it eventually gets killed normally sooner than later.
Then I have to spend an age mission running or even mining to be able to afford to buy a new ship and fit it out.
So for me high tech 2 prices means much less PvP and more time in high sec mission running.
Viktor we both know where s*** like "you can fly t1 stuff" should go - it is a crap. t1 v t2 doesn`t exist it is just laugh
And btw for most people it doesn`t mean only less PVP for most it means flying in blobs( cause it is easier to survive ) - so pvp is getting more and more borring.
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Maric
Science Experts
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Posted - 2007.02.02 11:18:00 -
[27]
Considering inventing T2 cloaks, it takes two weeks to make max run proto cloak bpc. It slow down things a lot.
Comparing to other items, it takes one day to make 5 max run bpcs of most of T1 items.
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Ciphero
Beagle Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.02 12:47:00 -
[28]
Give us a Tech 1 Covert Ops Cloak that allows cloaked warping, but involves a 30% speed loss.
Or something.
A Tech 2 item being as good as essential for a whole class of ships is ludicrous. |
Newton Mara
Deep Space Dragons
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Posted - 2007.02.02 13:28:00 -
[29]
Hurrah! Another T2 producer arguing that charging the earth for an item simply because they can means that is how it should be. And we should be grateful.
Please try and and make an argument based on something other than "I can so I will" or "Powerful Items should cost more" unless you can fill in the reasoning beyond a wish and a tickle. Thanks.
--
A voice of crystal clear reason above the hubub of the masses. |
Vaar
Gallente
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.02.02 13:37:00 -
[30]
I think everyone has a slightly different opinion on what invention was meant to do but my impression was it was meant to make the expenesive items cost a reasonable amount while not killing the t2 market. To me reasonable is 10 mil or less and while it has been slow stuff like cap 2 has dropped a lot in price. At the same time while CCP have sorted invention for modules they need to sort out ship invention since it is currently impractical. As for drones agian Im under impression that eventually they will be inventable. People need to give invention more time. If it hasnt worked in 6 months than we can talk about it failing.
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