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Is EVE evolving to "player owned empires"?

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Nyack GREY COUNCIL Breidablik	Posted - 2007.02.02 15:05:00 - [1] It seems like nowadays you have: pilots-corps-alliances-empires Bob is one empire D2 one and in the south it is abit unclear but ragoons-curse is going in that direction.. and i think it is what ccp wants aswell.. as a single alliance you hard time to survive if you dont have the "blessing" of the "empires". For BOB you have to pay for that blessing and rent your spot in return in bob space u are almost as safe as in npc-empire. D2 you dont have to pay for but rather earn it if you can prove you can hold space and defend it and aid d2 for common space you will have their blessing. you are obliged to help d2 but d2 will not put effort the help you survive in return you dont have to pay for blessing. Ragoons dont know much about them but seems abit like d2 if you prove ur self you will get standings and chance to live next to or in their space. my perception on what is the current "player-empires" might be abit of and there might be more factions but i think you get the general idea.. regards PS. plz try to stay on topic of "player-empires"
Herculite Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.02.02 15:20:00 - [2] The one aspect I really don't like is how POS wars (which it sounds like CCP wants to make even worse) and cap ships are needed. You need a empire to make cap ships in the numbers needed to really carve out a piece of space so you can take out the POS's. If you had a empire prior, you were able to build them with the rest of EvE, but I think its going to be near impossible for a true 'new' empire to control anything beyond a handful of systems, and only because the powers that be can't be bothered to squish them. Right now you can sit in someones space for days, but without the ability to take down the POS's you are just raiders. I'd rather see good olf fashioned station ping pong then the current dread wars.
Shyalud Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.02.02 15:27:00 - [3] I think the ability for a player run entity to control territory is the best thing CCP has ever done. Without it, 0.0 would be "controlled" by pirates and no one would be able to reap the benifits anyways. TBH, Alliances are the only law in 0.0. If you want to use the territory that is controlled by that alliance, join the alliance, one of it's corps, or get the alliance's permission to be there. In Any of the NPC controlled empire's, you have to follow their rules, don't you? Originally by: Jules The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.
Irongut M'8'S	Posted - 2007.02.02 15:39:00 - [4] I'd pretty much agree, the big superpowers are like the NPC empire factions. Their smaller allies are like the sub-races within the empires (e.g. Khanid or Intaki). I do have one disagreement tho... Originally by: Nyack For BOB you have to pay for that blessing and rent your spot in return in bob space u are almost as safe as in npc-empire. You shouldn't believe everything you read. Not everyone pays BoB to live in their space. Xelas pay them nothing, or at least did while I was with them. And my corp pays them nothing. The corps / alliances that do pay them are a recent addition to the BoB family. Basically some people are their friends and others are their tennants.
Nyack GREY COUNCIL Breidablik	Posted - 2007.02.02 15:42:00 - [5] Originally by: Shyalud I think the ability for a player run entity to control territory is the best thing CCP has ever done. Without it, 0.0 would be "controlled" by pirates and no one would be able to reap the benifits anyways. TBH, Alliances are the only law in 0.0. If you want to use the territory that is controlled by that alliance, join the alliance, one of it's corps, or get the alliance's permission to be there. In Any of the NPC controlled empire's, you have to follow their rules, don't you? the idea of the thread was that some alliances have evolved past the alliance status. they pretty much dont use the resources of the regions to full extent cause they have claimed so much. that they from now let other alliance live next to or in their space. paying or aiding in defense in the regions. These so called "Player empires" are playing on such a high level of playstyle that no regular alliance can match it. they also are so big and rich that they can offer a stability within their claimed space that alliances under their wing are as safe in their space as they are in "NPC controlled empire"
Nyack GREY COUNCIL Breidablik	Posted - 2007.02.02 15:43:00 - [6] Originally by: Irongut I'd pretty much agree, the big superpowers are like the NPC empire factions. Their smaller allies are like the sub-races within the empires (e.g. Khanid or Intaki). I do have one disagreement tho... Originally by: Nyack For BOB you have to pay for that blessing and rent your spot in return in bob space u are almost as safe as in npc-empire. You shouldn't believe everything you read. Not everyone pays BoB to live in their space. Xelas pay them nothing, or at least did while I was with them. And my corp pays them nothing. The corps / alliances that do pay them are a recent addition to the BoB family. Basically some people are their friends and others are their tennants. ok but you pay until you have proven your worth then?
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.02.02 15:45:00 - [7] Capital ships are first and foremost an economic decision. Their implementation is about residual income and investment. Ships are nothing more than an excuse for the component BPO's to put to use. Component BPO's are long term assets that introduce a variety of investment options. Capital Ships need to be put to use so they tie them to alliances. Alliances are built in transportation device to allow people to put their investments together. The symbiotic relationship of the capital ship print owners to the capital ship pilots means that there is a percieved need for both. As for player empires needed a capital fleet... this is only true for those with outposts or strategic POS. Nothing is more dangerous than an alliance with a capable capital ship fleet with support that owns no space, corporation or alliance doesn't really matter. As for the way alliances allow you into their space... well there is risk vs reward here. If you pay for less risk then you go to a BoB, which is a player version of a very strict amarr-like empire. If you don't want to pay then you go to a place like fountain and squat. EVE has always been like this. Now we as eve players have more people, more tools, more ships and tbh more ballz to make the dev's dream become common place. One of your Sigs contained inappropriate material for the eve-o forums, please email [email protected] for a explination. - hutch Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
Irongut M'8'S	Posted - 2007.02.02 15:50:00 - [8] Originally by: Nyack Originally by: Irongut I'd pretty much agree, the You shouldn't believe everything you read. Not everyone pays BoB to live in their space. Xelas pay them nothing, or at least did while I was with them. And my corp pays them nothing. The corps / alliances that do pay them are a recent addition to the BoB family. Basically some people are their friends and others are their tennants. ok but you pay until you have proven your worth then? Tbh I wasn't around when Xelas and BoB became friends. As far as I know they were impressed with XS refusal to give up the fight during the Great Northern War. As a result Xelas and M8S have never paid to live in Fountain. Perhaps it will work that way for the new tennants like Rise if they can manage to impress in Feyth.
Nyack GREY COUNCIL Breidablik	Posted - 2007.02.02 15:52:00 - [9] Originally by: Irongut Originally by: Nyack Originally by: Irongut I'd pretty much agree, the You shouldn't believe everything you read. Not everyone pays BoB to live in their space. Xelas pay them nothing, or at least did while I was with them. And my corp pays them nothing. The corps / alliances that do pay them are a recent addition to the BoB family. Basically some people are their friends and others are their tennants. ok but you pay until you have proven your worth then? Tbh I wasn't around when Xelas and BoB became friends. As far as I know they were impressed with XS refusal to give up the fight during the Great Northern War. As a result Xelas and M8S have never paid to live in Fountain. Perhaps it will work that way for the new tennants like Rise if they can manage to impress in Feyth. ok (sidenote want to thank every one for good and insightfull responses keep it up, was afraid it would derail fast... =)
Luthien Firefoot Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.02.02 16:09:00 - [10] It's not always that safe to live in BOB controlled regions. I'm sure the fix guys would agree that this is a valid statement and not intended to flame them in any way.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.02.02 16:11:00 - [11] Edited by: Shadowsword on 02/02/2007 16:09:28 Originally by: Irongut Tbh I wasn't around when Xelas and BoB became friends. As far as I know they were impressed with XS refusal to give up the fight during the Great Northern War. As a result Xelas and M8S have never paid to live in Fountain. Back in that time, FA was still pretty active. FA couldn't beat Bob (at least not often) in fleet battles, but guerilla warfare was quite different, and there's npc stations in Fountain. Bob needed someone to live down there, because you don't beat a guerilla by bringing a blob here and there, and they were gorwing too bored/busy elsewhere to do it themselves. So they talked to Xelas, and their offer had interest: - It offered Xelas, who was getting spanked in the north, an "honorable" way out, kind off "blah, you didn't beat us, we left because we wanted to". - Better region than what Xelas was fighting for in the north. - They could get help from bob when things were getting too nasty. - Bob probably downplayed the FA activity when they weren't blobbing the key systems. ------------------------------------------ Every ship has a base 60-70% resist against the primary damage type of the race that is the least able to vary it's damage types.
Nyack GREY COUNCIL Breidablik	Posted - 2007.02.02 16:19:00 - [12] Edited by: Nyack on 02/02/2007 16:17:52 Originally by: Luthien Firefoot It's not always that safe to live in BOB controlled regions. I'm sure the fix guys would agree that this is a valid statement and not intended to flame them in any way. of course.. but "the superpowers" or "empires" offer such stability that you can risk having your assets in outposts, you will have time to remove them if under attack. and such intel and security that you often can choose to run or fight, often time to dock and get safe etc.. not speaking for bob alone but all claimed space that has standings to the bigger boys(ragoon, bob, d2 etc.. not only BOB space!)i wonder when we will have the first alliance proclaiming themselfs as empires.. reason i am talking about it is the implementation of factional warfare. some alliances will just stay as alliance (such as our little one) and some alliances will grow and evolve into factions and even compete with npc-factions.. just a line of thinking not sayign it will ever happen.. but.. will ccp ever allow a higher lvl of organisation past alliances?
Nyack GREY COUNCIL Breidablik	Posted - 2007.02.02 16:21:00 - [13] Originally by: Shadowsword Edited by: Shadowsword on 02/02/2007 16:09:28 Originally by: Irongut Tbh I wasn't around when Xelas and BoB became friends. As far as I know they were impressed with XS refusal to give up the fight during the Great Northern War. As a result Xelas and M8S have never paid to live in Fountain. Back in that time, FA was still pretty active. FA couldn't beat Bob (at least not often) in fleet battles, but guerilla warfare was quite different, and there's npc stations in Fountain. Bob needed someone to live down there, because you don't beat a guerilla by bringing a blob here and there, and they were gorwing too bored/busy elsewhere to do it themselves. So they talked to Xelas, and their offer had interest: - It offered Xelas, who was getting spanked in the north, an "honorable" way out, kind off "blah, you didn't beat us, we left because we wanted to". - Better region than what Xelas was fighting for in the north. - They could get help from bob when things were getting too nasty. - Bob probably downplayed the FA activity when they weren't blobbing the key systems. thanks for the insight but plz if possible try to stay on topic =)
Shyalud Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.02.02 16:28:00 - [14] Evolution is part of the game, the empires have to evolve to keep up with it. If they don't they loose the territory they are in, and this happens fairly regularly. Among other things, EVE is about Territory and the fight to take it/keep it/use it. Alliances like BoB/D2 and others are very good at it. Originally by: Jules The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.
scabbsssjr Gallente M'8'S	Posted - 2007.02.02 16:41:00 - [15] Edited by: scabbsssjr on 02/02/2007 16:38:35 Hi Iron. Originally by: Herculite The one aspect I really don't like is how POS wars (which it sounds like CCP wants to make even worse) and cap ships are needed. You need a empire to make cap ships in the numbers needed to really carve out a piece of space so you can take out the POS's. If you had a empire prior, you were able to build them with the rest of EvE, but I think its going to be near impossible for a true 'new' empire to control anything beyond a handful of systems, and only because the powers that be can't be bothered to squish them. Right now you can sit in someones space for days, but without the ability to take down the POS's you are just raiders. I'd rather see good olf fashioned station ping pong then the current dread wars. CCP mentioned something in a dev blog recently about allowing small gangs the ability to do damage to big entities. Edit:http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=412 --------------------------- What ever I say is my own views and not of my corp.
Falryx Caldari Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2007.02.02 23:28:00 - [16] Originally by: Nyack Originally by: Irongut ok but you pay until you have proven your worth then? Perhaps it will work that way for the new tennants like Rise if they can manage to impress in Feyth. RISE's business arrangement is for very specific items and one of those is not the right to be in Feythabolis and access the stations, resources, and whatnot there. We could have chosen to relocate without any financial implications, but I'm under the impression that we ran the numbers and found our current arrangement to not only be mutually beneficial, but of greater benefit to our alliance and more likely to aid in our long term goals. But back on topic... I agree that the super-alliances seem to be acting much like an 'Empire' in the NPC sense rather than as alliances. I think for this to work really well, we'll need new and exciting game mechanics that allow people to express sovreignty but not prohibit station control (akin to how Zoar & Sons may dump a station in Khanid space, for example). I do agree that we run the risk of getting into a situation where you have to carefully (and secretly?) cobble together a super-alliance before you can hope to control your own space. Alliances that aren't super-alliances today may feel like they're working against a clock... they need to have critical mass for when the time comes, or they're out of luck. That said, we've repeatedly seen in EVE where smaller, better managed forces have put the hurt on larger ones (Outbreak, anyone?). So I'm not willing to support the idea that the little guy alliance/corp is dead just yet. However the evolution of some alliances into an 'Empire' like state with the advent of factional warfare not only sounds like an interesting idea -- but a plausible one.
Elisca Black Gallente Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.03 01:24:00 - [17] and you all thought we were joking with the star wars sigs..
Witty Moniker Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.03 01:39:00 - [18] This is what EVE is all about in the end. Player controlled empires. Well yes, some use a different system, or model, but in the end its still all done by players. Like said before, smaller corporations and groups of people can come to a deal with one of the bigger powers. I can't discuss D2s regulations on who can and cannot sit in their space, and I will not discuss BoB terms, but eventually both alliances or corps will work something out that's beneficial for both parties involved. I think we'll see alot more of this, as this is where the game is going to. Complete 'Empire' like empires in 0.0 space. As for the question will CCP let them go past alliances, I don't know, but that would be imba cool.
Dao 2 The Scope	Posted - 2007.02.03 01:56:00 - [19] Edited by: Dao 2 on 03/02/2007 01:55:28 Edited by: Dao 2 on 03/02/2007 01:52:38 Originally by: Irongut Originally by: Nyack Originally by: Irongut I'd pretty much agree, the You shouldn't believe everything you read. Not everyone pays BoB to live in their space. Xelas pay them nothing, or at least did while I was with them. And my corp pays them nothing. The corps / alliances that do pay them are a recent addition to the BoB family. Basically some people are their friends and others are their tennants. ok but you pay until you have proven your worth then? Tbh I wasn't around when Xelas and BoB became friends. As far as I know they were impressed with XS refusal to give up the fight during the Great Northern War. As a result Xelas and M8S have never paid to live in Fountain. Perhaps it will work that way for the new tennants like Rise if they can manage to impress in Feyth. um refusal to give up during the great northern war? they weren't around during the GNW, they broke off from PA and cheated their way to getting tenal. Then when that stuff with some shooting of them came about it got revealed that they had + standings with BOB. So they were then turned apon to get kicked out, s-eviq and that useless refinery station (that i can't remeber the name of) got taken over pretty quickly but they held out in v7-mid for a bit, the station wasn't under any direct attack just some fleets and ganksquads going in shooting stuff and leaving cause everyone as docked up. Finally some POS was put up and then a real fight began ;p I saw IRON and G fleets around, and probably there was an f-e one around too. Of course PA and NBSI was there, BOB had sent up a fleet (or I think it might have just been EVOL at the time :o to long ago for me to remeber ;p) We had gained control of the station, fight happened node crashed some freak accident happened so that the station was back in their hands when the node came back up. After leaving/being kicked out BOB offered them a home in Fountain. You MIGHT say that they were impressed with their refusal to give up during the gnw (doubt it cause some of the corps weren't even in the PA during the GNW, much less me knowing wether or not BOB had any respect for the PA corps.) The of course cochise's corp was in their since it was his alliance. They didn't do to much fighting for their own space though and got run over quite quickly :\| if it wasn't for the help they woulda been steamrollered with no effort. edit: Their time as xelas in the north was pretty shortlived, though that happens a lot in this game ;p But it was all during the whole north vs south stuff and everyone was all united (to a degree it got pretty sucessfully torn aport later by all the internal problems and atuk + friends ;p) ------------------------------------------------ NEWLY ADDED ON 1/19 (though applies to all posts before ;p) the usual "I don't represent my corp or alliance" and stuffs like that Also the gal
Nyack GREY COUNCIL Breidablik	Posted - 2007.02.03 11:04:00 - [20] seems like my topic was edited.. updated now
Nyack GREY COUNCIL Breidablik	Posted - 2007.02.03 11:15:00 - [21] so playing with the thought that ccp would allow "player factions" what do you guys think would be the requirements for it, so it doesnt evolve like it is today when a singel corp can form an alliance just for the hell of it 1b aint much.. something that would be inflation proof if isk would be valued even less then they are today.. const sov of an entire region? 20 outposts? what would differ player factions from the current alliances? what would player factions be allowed to do that alliances cant?
Nyack GREY COUNCIL Breidablik	Posted - 2007.02.03 11:20:00 - [22] i think it shoudl be something that would restrict abit taht these factions actualy develop their regions rather then jsut conqureing more regions over and over again.. sooner or later we will run out of regions =)
Cipher7 Nightgliders Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.03 14:28:00 - [23] Yes absolutely. Not only do corps form alliances but alliances become part of a Bloc. Right now BoB is more than an alliance, it is a Faction.
Pehova Mindtriq Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.02.03 14:46:00 - [24] Originally by: Nyack Originally by: Irongut I'd pretty much agree, the big superpowers are like the NPC empire factions. Their smaller allies are like the sub-races within the empires (e.g. Khanid or Intaki). I do have one disagreement tho... Originally by: Nyack For BOB you have to pay for that blessing and rent your spot in return in bob space u are almost as safe as in npc-empire. You shouldn't believe everything you read. Not everyone pays BoB to live in their space. Xelas pay them nothing, or at least did while I was with them. And my corp pays them nothing. The corps / alliances that do pay them are a recent addition to the BoB family. Basically some people are their friends and others are their tennants. ok but you pay until you have proven your worth then? I think it's more likely that bob can't be everywere at the same time so they need friendly residents in their region to protect the assets. It is probably not that simple that you have to pay bob to live in their space and you have to prove yourself to live in d2 space. Celes/Toxin vs BOB
Nyack GREY COUNCIL Breidablik	Posted - 2007.02.03 15:20:00 - [25] naah of course but the more detail i would put in the more flaming there would be for me being wrong. the discussion was ment to be if there was in fact factions in eve, not the details on the terms of being part, or renting in a faction..
Kashre Minmatar Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.02.03 20:57:00 - [26] Originally by: Luthien Firefoot It's not always that safe to live in BOB controlled regions. I'm sure the fix guys would agree that this is a valid statement and not intended to flame them in any way. Querious is a law unto itself, and safety and Q have been mutually exclusive since the day CA decided to come bug the CFS in JK-FIX. Nothin new there. But I'd wager a guess that the vast majority of casual raiders in the area seldom get further south than Delve, what with all the meatshield targets in Q. I'm not bitter about it, it's just a fact of the geography. Or is that stellagraphy? We ever have been and ever shall be the first stop for people looking for Pew Pew in the south, after HED-GP. +++ "Etiquette is for the Dojo. In war there is only victory or death." - Eiji Yoshikawa
Kashre Minmatar Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.02.03 21:01:00 - [27] Originally by: Nyack so playing with the thought that ccp would allow "player factions" what do you guys think would be the requirements for it, so it doesnt evolve like it is today when a singel corp can form an alliance just for the hell of it 1b aint much.. something that would be inflation proof if isk would be valued even less then they are today.. const sov of an entire region? 20 outposts? what would differ player factions from the current alliances? what would player factions be allowed to do that alliances cant? The rumor I've heard is that they're going to add "constellation" soveringty on top of system sovereignty, which requires 3 outposts in the same constellation. Supposedly down the road we'll be getting potential perks from that like the ability to deploy sentry guns at gates, and maybe even have npc navies roaming around and "limited" control of gates. If you look around you'll probably find some posts or dev blogs discussing it, although I'm way to lazy to look em up to link for ya. :P I doubt they'd need to add more than constelation sov. A constelation is a pretty decent building block for your empire. +++ "Etiquette is for the Dojo. In war there is only victory or death." - Eiji Yoshikawa
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.03 21:21:00 - [28] Edited by: Rod Blaine on 03/02/2007 21:17:39 I don't think sentires and stuff are the key elements needed. As demonstrated in practice right now you need people to secure space, and that shouldn't change. 0.0 will become like low sec empire in some regards. With ownership largely uncontested, taxes in place by the empire faction and corporations owning stations, pos's, and using the space while aligned to the empire they reside in. Current low sec pirates are replced by raiding gangs from hostile factions/superalliances. So, what would be mostly needed to get this arrangement to show formally is a superseding level of sovereignty. Currently, you see people work around that by freeing up ingame sovereignty but having the player-managed political map show the sovereignty of the faction or superalliance that controls the territory on a superseding level. FIX has soveriegnty in alot of Querious systems, yet the map shows the BoB name. BoB is the faction or empire, FIX is the corp working within it. Would CCP allow us to somehow express facitonal sovereignty as the next level of control over alliance sovereignty, while allowing alliance sovereignty to dtermine the right to for example build outposts and later on do planetary interaction then nothing more is needed to formalise already existing player run empires. Would you want to create something more related to high security empire space, then indeed you need to talk about sentry guns, gate control, etc. Personally, I'd rather not see that, as it would take away alot of the territorial dynamic in 0.0. Old blog Originally by: Vriezuh Naz: John is a realist
Euripides Das	Posted - 2007.02.04 05:48:00 - [29] Originally by: Nyack Edited by: Nyack on 02/02/2007 16:17:52 Originally by: Luthien Firefoot It's not always that safe to live in BOB controlled regions. I'm sure the fix guys would agree that this is a valid statement and not intended to flame them in any way. of course.. but "the superpowers" or "empires" offer such stability that you can risk having your assets in outposts, you will have time to remove them if under attack. and such intel and security that you often can choose to run or fight, often time to dock and get safe etc.. not speaking for bob alone but all claimed space that has standings to the bigger boys(ragoon, bob, d2 etc.. not only BOB space!)i wonder when we will have the first alliance proclaiming themselfs as empires.. reason i am talking about it is the implementation of factional warfare. some alliances will just stay as alliance (such as our little one) and some alliances will grow and evolve into factions and even compete with npc-factions.. just a line of thinking not sayign it will ever happen.. but.. will ccp ever allow a higher lvl of organisation past alliances? Of course they will. They'll do it just when the current alliances get a bit to big for their britches. Sure declare yourself a faction, oops forgot to tell you that the Caldari navy has the same strength as the British pre-Jutland and um Titans play the battleship role.
Crellion Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.02.04 12:21:00 - [30] If you want to have fun stay outside the social fabtic. The only fun activity involving POS is popping haulers carrying isotopes. Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.

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