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A fair question to CCP and other players regarding lag.

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Taffun Minmatar E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.02.03 00:15:00 - [1] First off, I think it's fair to say that the intent of this game is to be able to have fleet level engagements with as little lag interfering in the battle as possible. The reality of the game at the moment is that this is at best a dream in most semi-large scale engagements. Now CCP have no real SLA or anything that gives the average player really any true indication of the level of server lag to be expected in any engagement aside from the understanding that as paying customers, we have the option of choosing not to play. If it's accepted that the lag or reduction of it shouldn't be something of a tactic then I think there deserves a fair discussion as to what is causing it and what can best be done to reduce it. With this in mind I would like to open this thread to suggestions on how to best reduce lag and it would be wonderful if CCP could publicize known causes of lag and possible ways to avoid them aside from the obvious reasons such as not engaging etc.
SToRMF E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.02.03 00:17:00 - [2] o/
Amthrianius Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.03 00:18:00 - [3] contact RKK for all your dev needs! ---------------
Dr Smythe Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.03 00:19:00 - [4] Originally by: Taffun With this in mind I would like to open this thread to suggestions on how to best reduce lag and it would be wonderful if CCP could publicize known causes of lag and possible ways to avoid them aside from the obvious reasons such as not engaging etc. Stop flying in Jita? ----------------------------------- Help Dr Smythe get a Corvus
Othnark Minmatar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.03 00:20:00 - [5] well with the fight we just had lag was spikey but with 150+ local shooting most people were able to manuever and shoot. Hats off to all involved. Lag is part of online gaming tbh, deal with it.
ponieus Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.03 00:23:00 - [6] Kali3 is what I heard.. regarding lag and such related items. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Taiatia ([email protected])
Smith Caldari Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.03 00:24:00 - [7] It was like playing a slide show. However the FCs did a great job. No one complained at all and kept quiet while targets were called.
Karina Harington Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.02.03 00:29:00 - [8] We're not here to ***** about "that fight" we just had, we want honest and constructive discussion on managing lag and how best to minimise it in your client.
oil University of Caille	Posted - 2007.02.03 00:30:00 - [9] snip Posting with an unidentified character and characters in NPC corporations in this forum is prohibited. If you wish to participate in the discussions here, be sure to have your corporation and or alliance status ticked in your forum settings -Cyrano ([email protected])
Rawstyle Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.02.03 00:30:00 - [10] people seem to be missing the point somewhat, this post is not about the recent engagement, its about the lag issue in general.

Karina Harington Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.02.03 00:31:00 - [11] Originally by: oil snipped Please don't turn this into a dev hax thread.
HordeZla Destructive Influence	Posted - 2007.02.03 00:33:00 - [12] Edited by: HordeZla on 03/02/2007 00:30:42 Changed my smack Dying before you load is for the win :) I should allways try and turn up 2 mins late in future
SpaceLord Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.02.03 00:34:00 - [13] the lag in eo was hell... the first what i saw after warp in was my pod....
jeNK Caldari STK Scientific	Posted - 2007.02.03 00:46:00 - [14] Originally by: Othnark Lag is part of online gaming tbh, deal with it. There's lag, and there is eve's version of lag - i.e. nothing happens for 5mins until you are in a pod. No modules, no movement, no messages, no chat, no anything. How do you "deal" with that?
fire 59 Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.03 00:49:00 - [15] Originally by: jeNK Originally by: Othnark Lag is part of online gaming tbh, deal with it. There's lag, and there is eve's version of lag - i.e. nothing happens for 5mins until you are in a pod. No modules, no movement, no messages, no chat, no anything. How do you "deal" with that? The lag in afore mentioned fight was patchy tbh. Could lock and target, manuvere etc. There are several thing's you can do to optimise your client which help absolutely load's. Adapting to the lag is so important, even if it hurt's, keep at it and don't lose focus.

Cyrano Syme Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2007.02.03 00:53:00 - [16] Thread cleaned. Please keep the discussion on topic. \| forum rules \| crc website \| forum faq \| [email protected] \|

LadyScarlet Minmatar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.03 00:54:00 - [17] the lag could have been far worst for that many in local but for the most part bearable just be patient and dont panick it helps alot ;)
DiuxDium Casting Shadows	Posted - 2007.02.03 00:55:00 - [18] Holy crap, this food is so spicy, god it hurts. But it's so damn good. brb, getting a piece of bread. --------------- PvP in EvE is not consentual.
Lone Bear Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.03 01:02:00 - [19] Lag seems hard to predict: sometimes I cant even activate modules, sometimes I m shot down before loading grid, sometimes I can play fine, sometimes (like tonight) I switch from fluid to slide show to fluid. All these situations took place with various numbers (from 20 local to +200). It's frustrating, that I wont argue; but as stated in the last dev blogs, the "need for speed" is shaping from patch to patch. Keep faith. Lag= angry customers and angry customers makes Devs & commercials nervous, nobody wants a laggy game would it be due to: pleasure of playing it, pleasure of shaping it, commercial behaviour / representation. Tho I got no real answer to resorb it
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.03 01:02:00 - [20] There was not so much lag(<5s module activation at worst spikes). It was all fine, unless you were unlucky and drifted cursor over gate(and it loaded all sorts of crap). Helps if trust everyone that is doing what he is supposed to be doing and keep calm and patient. -------- .....

Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.03 01:03:00 - [21] The problem with EVE is that its extremely ambitious in it's design. Think about it. In EVE, numbers are always good. You're fighting someone? Bring a friend. They match you, man for man? Bring more men. They've got a rock hard fleet? Who wants to come blow them up. To put it simply- a 10 man BoB Uber PvP Supergang is never going to be as good as an 11 man BoB Uber PvP Supergang. And a 12 man one is better still. Thats all very well and good - its part of the charm of EVE, that it encourages real-life combat dynamics like that - but its asking for trouble. Because no matter how good they make the server, people are always going to try and bring an EVEN BIGGER gang, availability of pilots allowing. All CCP can hope to do is keep on streamlining the code and beefing up the hardware, and hope to keep 2 steps ahead of the unstoppable tide of players ganging up. I don't think lags all that bad right now, anyhoo. Its been worse. Lets just hope this is the start of an upswing, and not EVE at its peak -----------------------------------------------
searchi tiberian suns	Posted - 2007.02.03 01:10:00 - [22] so what can help to reduce lag? setting colour depth to minimum sound off dont generate char pictures when clicked all effects off with contrl+alt+shift+e turret effect off with contrl+alt+shift+t as few as possible chat channels, blink off on chat channels if possible in general options window: ship ui as % off trails off damage messages off sun occluded off log chat to file off show exception windows off overview: no friendly ships or whatever should ever be seen show only those shipclasses that u actually plan to target DONT show drones and wrecks (except fighters in some circiumstances) for looting u can put wrecks back on after the fight if u hold the field ie bs: show only bs/capitals/bc (maybe elite cruiser) ew ships: show only bs, capitals tackler: bs/capitals tackler defence: all up to cruisers pod squisher group: pods only when warping to the battlefield look directly behind you so your screen has not to load the whole graphic shiiiit immediately. might help with alighning for warp out too. if something of the above is not right then say so please. additions welcome. what advantage the knowledge of the right settings and server works has was seen in the bob/ascnfleetbattles. even a force as good as bob should not regulary manage to slaughter fleets for next to no losses. even a ****ty fleet should mange a kill/loss ratio of 1:5 arjun
Othnark Minmatar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.03 01:12:00 - [23] Originally by: jeNK Originally by: Othnark Lag is part of online gaming tbh, deal with it. There's lag, and there is eve's version of lag - i.e. nothing happens for 5mins until you are in a pod. No modules, no movement, no messages, no chat, no anything. How do you "deal" with that? Deal with it = file your petition if u so choose. Then go get another ship. Too easy.
TJ17 Gallente Dread Elite DREAD.	Posted - 2007.02.03 01:13:00 - [24] everyone should pull the phone line out of the back of your computer and get DSL or cable internet is not that expensive DSL is like what 14.99usd a month
Darknesss D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.02.03 01:23:00 - [25] the largest problem i have with the lag is that some people can be fine or nearly fine in a fleet fight while others cant see anything, it makes no sense. If your gonna go into an engagement i would be much happier (if for example my screen doesnt load) knowing that everyone else was in the same boat. This can accidentally win or lose a fight for a side. Whether lag is fixable or if there is anything you can do to stop it apart from what is already commonly known then i would certainly like to know.
ParMizaN Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.02.03 01:24:00 - [26] Originally by: TJ17 everyone should pull the phone line out of the back of your computer and get DSL or cable internet is not that expensive DSL is like what 14.99usd a month I assume you have never experienced a 50+ person fleetbattle in eve then? The lag is nearly 100% server-oriented.
Rawstyle Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.02.03 01:40:00 - [27] The thing is, there is a big difference between 'lagging' ie. module lag etc and plain and simple not loading. Taking the recent fight as an example, we made all the lag reducing adjustments that were know to us, yet 95% of our gang simply didnt load.....at all. The few killmails we did get go some way to backing this up, as its the same 4-5 ppl(it would appear the only 4-5 ppl that could lock/manouver/etc at all) that appear on each of them. I was one of the lucky ones, whilst i had 30-40 sec module lag, i could still move, and at one point warped out and back. The second warp in was far worse than the first for me, but this is no suprise as by this time there were multiple carriers/fighters on the gate. From the sounds of it, MC suffered worse lag than bob did, clearly they were a good 200km from the gate and MC were on top of it, so clearly that had an affect.
jeNK Caldari STK Scientific	Posted - 2007.02.03 01:42:00 - [28] Originally by: Othnark Originally by: jeNK Originally by: Othnark Lag is part of online gaming tbh, deal with it. There's lag, and there is eve's version of lag - i.e. nothing happens for 5mins until you are in a pod. No modules, no movement, no messages, no chat, no anything. How do you "deal" with that? Deal with it = file your petition if u so choose. Then go get another ship. Too easy. I'm not paying 8 pound a month to file petitions, thanks. "Too easy." lol - please, try and think for once.
jeNK Caldari STK Scientific	Posted - 2007.02.03 01:44:00 - [29] Originally by: fire 59 Originally by: jeNK Originally by: Othnark Lag is part of online gaming tbh, deal with it. There's lag, and there is eve's version of lag - i.e. nothing happens for 5mins until you are in a pod. No modules, no movement, no messages, no chat, no anything. How do you "deal" with that? The lag in afore mentioned fight was patchy tbh. Could lock and target, manuvere etc. There are several thing's you can do to optimise your client which help absolutely load's. Adapting to the lag is so important, even if it hurt's, keep at it and don't lose focus. I've done all of those. For the last year+ I've been running a fully "optimised" client for pvp, but it still lags out from time to time.
Poizonous Lizard Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.03 01:53:00 - [30] Edited by: Poizonous Lizard on 03/02/2007 01:51:37 Originally by: Rawstyle people seem to be missing the point somewhat, this post is not about the recent engagement, its about the lag issue in general. To the OP, may I enquire as to why the thread regarding LAG is posted within the COAD section within the forums? And why am I quoting you I hear you mutter, well why not? edit - 2am, I am tired and need sleep.

Taffun Minmatar E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.02.03 01:59:00 - [31] The reason it was posted here is because the lag I'm talking about is generally generated and experienced by corporate and alliance level activities and I believe that this is the audience that would most benefit from the discussion.
fire 59 Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.03 02:04:00 - [32] Well i have seen far worse lag than that tbh, i think your guys were unlucky enough to wapr into the thick of it after everyone else had loaded and were going at it. I'd go so far as to say that considering the drone's, fighter's and shooting going on, it did well not to node crash and remain playable tbh
Taffun Minmatar E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.02.03 02:17:00 - [33] I wasn't actually involved in the conflict tonight, but I was involved in a much smaller one against FIX sometime back in Querious with similar issues as far as the effect on our fleet. I also in no way am looking to detract from your experience in the engagement. I'm simply looking to bring to light for many who could benefit, the best way to deal with and gauge the lag in order to make these engagements as enjoyable and competitive as possible.
Elianora Sanitars of Dungeon	Posted - 2007.02.03 02:28:00 - [34] What i really would like to hear from CCP at 1 moment is - if there IS lag and its part of the current game, then not a single reimbursment due to lag should be made. If there is no lag...then what the hell are we paying for?
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.02.03 02:33:00 - [35] Last Saturday our fleet jumped into DG- and all of us either crashed, emergency warped, or got podded while we were stuck loading the system. LV hadn't even shown up at the gate when we jumped into the systen. Fleet lag has been horrible ever since DRAGON code patch. Nothing the DEVs have done to 'reduce' lag has made 1 honest dent into the problem. It will be nice when they finally find the problem or remove dragon code. Also, systems can be iffy. F4 combat in IAC space usually runs pretty smooth... but next door in ZXIC 15-20 ships with drones out will start to cripple any attempt to have a good fight. One of your Sigs contained inappropriate material for the eve-o forums, please email [email protected] for a explination. - hutch Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.02.03 02:41:00 - [36] How to reduce lag? 1¦ Cut on the number of drones. We faced like 80 fighters in tonight's engagement, plus the regular drones and 200 pilots, what was the point limiting the number of drones last year to come down to this? 2¦ Cut on the weapon slots. Why do I need 8 turrets on my Rokh, wouldn't 4 do the job provided they do twice the damage? Fitting would be less interesting, no biggie. 3¦ Double all weapons damage and cut the rate of fire in half (including drones). That might need another hitpoints increase to counter the alphastrike, so what? 4¦ Put overheated nodes (above 90% CPU) in stasis: no weapon fires anymore, pilots have to leave the system to a destination of their choice in 5 minutes. This solves nothing but prevents petition queues and frustration. 5¦ Have dedicated nodes for fleet battles. As soon as a system enters stasis, all pilots in space in that system are teleported to a dedicated node, each side ported based on standings, on very remote points in the new system. There are so many variants of this system that it doesn't need further explanation (or would require it's own discussion). 6¦ Turn off model rendering as an option, colored squares are more than enough. 7¦ Code (would be about time!) active load balancing. 8¦ Get rid of the sovereignty/alliance and BIG STUFF concept. EVE can't be played on large scale and never will, so it's time to promote small engagements and forget about the silly 'the bigger the better' concept. 9¦ Get rid of ridiculous NPC spawns. Cut them in 10 and give them real weapons. I heard this is in the pipe. 10¦ Fix EW, mainly jamming on dedicated ships. Modules neutralized don't generate lag. Make jamming random instead of 100% and that would be less load for the CPUs. No half-baked chanced base system this time, please, something reliable and realistic where frustration has no place. It's been 2 years EVE is going down the drain to a point I'm sure many would like the gaming experience they had in Castor back. Of course, we were not even 10.000 online at a same time back then, but look where the 'one shard' pride of CCP has lead us. ____________________ A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipe, but who does not.
Dawn Princess eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.03 02:53:00 - [37] Looking at boards relating to the fight in question at the ratios of kills to losses all I can say is "now you know how we felt". Have fun as that is pretty much every large scale fleet battle you are going to have over the next few weeks right there.
Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Momentum. Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.02.03 03:21:00 - [38] Originally by: searchi so what can help to reduce lag? setting colour depth to minimum sound off dont generate char pictures when clicked all effects off with contrl+alt+shift+e turret effect off with contrl+alt+shift+t as few as possible chat channels, blink off on chat channels if possible in general options window: ship ui as % off trails off damage messages off sun occluded off log chat to file off show exception windows off overview: no friendly ships or whatever should ever be seen show only those shipclasses that u actually plan to target DONT show drones and wrecks (except fighters in some circiumstances) for looting u can put wrecks back on after the fight if u hold the field ie bs: show only bs/capitals/bc (maybe elite cruiser) ew ships: show only bs, capitals tackler: bs/capitals tackler defence: all up to cruisers pod squisher group: pods only when warping to the battlefield look directly behind you so your screen has not to load the whole graphic shiiiit immediately. might help with alighning for warp out too. if something of the above is not right then say so please. additions welcome. what advantage the knowledge of the right settings and server works has was seen in the bob/ascnfleetbattles. even a force as good as bob should not regulary manage to slaughter fleets for next to no losses. even a **ty fleet should mange a kill/loss ratio of 1:5 arjun I do most of those things in large engagements, however, my PC far exceeds the requirement for running EVE yet we have to disable more than half of the ingame options just to be able to play without watching a slide show. Maybe CCP should update their minimum requirements as it is clearly not very honest. Even with all effects turned off sound disabled etc...are you actually going to tell me that you never encouter LAG? It really does ruin the game Tears will stream down your face, when you lose something you can not replace**
Forsaken Priest E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.02.03 03:49:00 - [39] I remember a time when fleet battles were actually playable on both sides, when they were fun. Ever since RMR was introduced, it has never been the same, even with the recent upgrades, patches and improvements. Now, the side that is sitting and waiting have the clear advantage. Warping in or jumping in on a large gang no longer seems to be feasable. There are some that dont seem to have such problems, and makes me wonder whats so different about them. Perhaps they simply have high spec PC's with high speed connections, in which case its about tim ethe true minimum spec for playing eve is released. On the other hand, with my low spec PC, I have recently jumped in on a large 200+ fleet battle on a gate with the minimal amount of lag. It has been said in the past that the majority of lag is cased not by the server, not by your internet connection, but by the graphics engine that they are currently using. Some clarification would be most welcome as there are situations that support all of the above. Such as systems not loading or nodes crashing due to large numbers, and drones causing lag for the lower and sometime even higher specs. Understanderbly, due to the player base increasing an unpressidented amount, the servers are having a hard time. Large fleet battles are inevitable and alliance numbers and sizes are multiplying. We have been forever patient and understanding, and eagerly await information or a solution to the problem of lag.
Lowa Gallente North Star Networks Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.02.03 03:57:00 - [40] Thing is that its just so bloody random most of the times. Half the fleet wont load, 25% will load but no mod activation and the rest will work fine. There is no defence or workaround for that. Sad but true. Following the tips in this (and that "other thread I cant find") will help out but sadly its no guarantee for a lag free fight. There are optimizations on the way, we know that, and with those we can hope that the RAMsan stuff will really shine because there is nothing faster on the planet when it comes to doing IO. On the other hand, I'm not sure those things effect fighting? While we wait for it to get better I would ask as many ppl as possible to help out CCP with the stress-tests on SiSi since that is done just for things like lag and finding the cause for it. Cheers, Lowa What if the truth was something else?


Karl Chroimcer Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2007.02.03 04:03:00 - [41] This is not the correct forum. The Aussie Mod

bulabuba Gallente Klima Galactic	Posted - 2007.02.03 04:06:00 - [42] 1000 "weight points" in a fighting unit (fleet or gang). One fighting unit per faction (blue to each other) per system at one time. You assign "weight points" like 50 = dread, 40 = carrier, 20 = BS, 10 = cruiser, 5 = frigate, or something similar. So, under that sceme, as extreme examples, you could have 20 dreads, or you could have 200 frigs. You to decide how to comprise your fleet to make the best use of your points given the skills you have. Yeah, a lot of experimenting on the test server would have to be done to balance it right before making it live, but I think it would be worth doing. With somehting like this in place, battles stop being one-system "slide show" blob affairs and end up spreading out over multi-system "fronts" across which the battle is fought (and has to be coordinated) simultaneously. I haven't been playing that long, but I've already been in fights where lag was fairly obviously used as a weapon/tactic, and so bad that, as some are saying here, you have no chance to play at all. Yes, numerical "caps" are an artifical, and less than optimal solution, but an even less optimal solution is a situation where he who wins is he who best managed lag and/or induced it when the battle didn't seem to be going his way. That's the worst kind of meta-gaming, and the outcome of battles shouldn't hinge upon it. ----------------------------------------------- Are GoonSwarm ever going to be allowed to build up in any way in 0.0 space again? No. -DB Preacher[BoB]


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