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Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
47
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Posted - 2016.02.16 19:49:38 -
[1] - Quote
How much real world money would it take to get Mastery 5 in any ship of your choice for a brand new character?
I see a plex is on Jita now for 1.228b. If you like you can assume a more classic amount as recent fluctuations have sent it high... say 750m? A plex costs US$19.99... US$17.50 if you buy 28.
Mastery 5 in a Merlin is;
Hull Upgrades 5
Mechanics 5
CPU Management 5
Gravimetric Sensor Compensation 5
Long Range Targeting 5
Signature Analysis 5
Target Management 5
Capacitor Management 5
Capacitor Systems Operation 5
Electronics Upgrades 5
Energy Grid Upgrades 5
Power Grid Management 5
Science 1
Advanced Weapon Upgrades 5
Gunnery 5
Weapon Upgrades 5
Acceleration Control 5
Afterburner 5
Evasive Maneuvering 5
Fuel Conservation 5
High Speed Maneuvering 5
Navigation 5
Spaceship Command 5
Warp Drive Operation 5
EM Shield Compensation 5
Energy Grid Upgrades 5
Explosive Shield Compensation 5
Kinetic Shield Compensation 5
Power Grid Management 3
Shield Compensation 5
Shield Management 5
Shield Operation 5
Shield Upgrades 5
Tactical Shield Manipulation 4
Thermal Shield Compensation 5
Controlled Bursts 5
Motion Prediction 5
Rapid Firing 5
Sharpshooter 5
Small Blaster Specialization 5
Small Hybrid Turret 5
Small Railgun Specialization 5
Surgical strike 5
Trajectory Analysis 5
Propulsion Jamming 5
That's 29,236,260sp. Average starting sp is 406,094sp. Net 28,830,166sp. The payout goes like this:
< 5 million total skill points = 500,000 skill points per injector
5 million GÇô 50 million total skill points = 400,000 skill points per injector
Last I checked, you could get an injector for 750m.
So you need 10 to get to 5M sp. You need 60 more to get to 29M sp.
70 injectors. At 1.228b isk per plex, 750m isk per injector, you'll need 43 plex.
US$754.74 for Master 5 Merlin. Spare change to buy the ship and modules...
Anyone want to work out Mastery 5 Tengu? :) |
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
47
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Posted - 2016.02.16 19:52:28 -
[2] - Quote
Forgot Caldari Frigate 5. 621,837 more sp... probably 1 more injector. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
14179
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Posted - 2016.02.16 19:54:49 -
[3] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:
Anyone want to work out Mastery 5 Tengu? :)
not that much extra , you already have the core skills from your Merlin.
would still get your ass kicked in the first fight you picked though
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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FarosWarrior
De Muuzevangers
23
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Posted - 2016.02.16 19:55:00 -
[4] - Quote
Mastery 5 tengu is just about the same I would think, as for mastery V in pretty much every caldari ship, minmatar ship, gallente ship, amarr ship, pirate ship, faction ship etc etc...
You just listed just about every core skill there is in EVE, and applied it to 1 ship. Let me make it clearer:
1 ship.
95% of these skills are usefull in EVERY OTHER SHIP IN EVE. You're basically saying "Hell, to make a car work I need to get the following:
- Engine
- Chassis
- Exhaust
- Battery
- Ignition
- Steering wheel
All of this costs me 1500Gé¼, this is outrageous!" |
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
47
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Posted - 2016.02.16 20:07:37 -
[5] - Quote
FarosWarrior wrote:95% of these skills are usefull in EVERY OTHER SHIP IN EVE.
Well the following are useful in about only 25% of the ships;
Gravimetric Sensor Compensation 5
Small Blaster Specialization 5
Small Hybrid Turret 5
Small Railgun Specialization 5
Skilling into a Harpy at Mastery 5 costs another 1,243,675sp - 3 to 4 more injectors, say 3 plex US$55 or thereabouts. Harpy only adds Assault Frigate 5 really.
No drones, no missiles, no armor tank yet. No specials like cov ops or scanning either. |
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
47
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Posted - 2016.02.16 20:15:06 -
[6] - Quote
So for US$1000, you could easily be in racial Assault Frigate of your choice for Mastery 5 with enough left over to buy a couple dozen fits.
Little ship. Basic PVP.
Apply this approach to a Dominix, you'll likely need over double that. Gallente Batleship 5 is 2.4M sp alone, plus drones.1.6M per racial drone specialty, frex |
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
47
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Posted - 2016.02.16 20:19:21 -
[7] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:So for US$1000, you could easily...
Two of the cheapest plex buys is US$979 and nets 56 plex. Wisely spent to Mastery 3 or so per ship, you'd probably get close to every ship.
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FarosWarrior
De Muuzevangers
23
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Posted - 2016.02.16 20:25:50 -
[8] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:FarosWarrior wrote:95% of these skills are usefull in EVERY OTHER SHIP IN EVE. Well the following are useful in about only 25% of the ships; Gravimetric Sensor Compensation 5 Small Blaster Specialization 5 Small Hybrid Turret 5 Small Railgun Specialization 5 Skilling into a Harpy at Mastery 5 costs another 1,243,675sp - 3 to 4 more injectors, say 3 plex US$55 or thereabouts. Harpy only adds Assault Frigate 5 really. No drones, no missiles, no armor tank yet. No specials like cov ops or scanning either.
Oh sorry you got me on my percentages, back to school I think...
Quote:Hull Upgrades 5
Mechanics 5
CPU Management 5
Gravimetric Sensor Compensation 5
Long Range Targeting 5
Signature Analysis 5
Target Management 5
Capacitor Management 5
Capacitor Systems Operation 5
Electronics Upgrades 5
Energy Grid Upgrades 5
Power Grid Management 5
Science 1
Advanced Weapon Upgrades 5
Gunnery 5
Weapon Upgrades 5
Acceleration Control 5
Afterburner 5
Evasive Maneuvering 5
Fuel Conservation 5
High Speed Maneuvering 5
Navigation 5
Spaceship Command 5
Warp Drive Operation 5
EM Shield Compensation 5
Energy Grid Upgrades 5
Explosive Shield Compensation 5
Kinetic Shield Compensation 5
Power Grid Management 3
Shield Compensation 5
Shield Management 5
Shield Operation 5
Shield Upgrades 5
Tactical Shield Manipulation 4
Thermal Shield Compensation 5
Controlled Bursts 5
Motion Prediction 5
Rapid Firing 5
Sharpshooter 5
Small Blaster Specialization 5
Small Hybrid Turret 5
Small Railgun Specialization 5
Surgical strike 5
Trajectory Analysis 5
Propulsion Jamming 5
Everything that's underlined is useful in all ships, everything in italic is race specific, everything bolded is useful for ships with comparable roles (can be either shield tanks or (small) gunboats, T2 large guns aren't required for BS, they just hurt more), you do the math yourself. If it's bolded and underlined, it's twice as useful! |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9898
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Posted - 2016.02.16 20:31:19 -
[9] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:US$754.74 for Master 5 Merlin.
That's the idiot price.
I'm not saying some moron won't do it, but the majority of not stupid people will just buy the focused Merlin pilot off the Character Bazaar for a 10th of that.
Mr Epeen 
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
47
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Posted - 2016.02.16 20:36:10 -
[10] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:I'm not saying some moron won't do it, but the majority of not stupid people will just buy the focused Merlin pilot off the Character Bazaar for a 10th of that.
For under 1M sp, you can get level 3 in all these skills. New characters can be doing most of this and having fun with 1 month subscription.
So yeah, this is not a good deal any way you slice it.
edit: By the time you just do the tutorial, you're likely a better player and have what you need. |
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
2212
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Posted - 2016.02.16 20:46:39 -
[11] - Quote
Mastery 5 is a waste of SP and money. Also the mastery levels do not include the skills for the hull itself. Aim for mastery 4 and carefully select those skills which are worth training further.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
5296
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Posted - 2016.02.16 20:49:54 -
[12] - Quote
Still can fly this merlin like a noob.
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ =ƒÅ¦ - my sandcastle
Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
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NUBIARN
Brutal Ballerinas
24
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Posted - 2016.02.16 20:52:47 -
[13] - Quote
already have all sub capitals to mastery 5 so lemme check 0 isk  |
Yarosara Ruil
Caldari State
114
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Posted - 2016.02.16 20:59:13 -
[14] - Quote
Well, if anything Mastery 5 is good for bragging rights, injectors or not.
You can probably get Mastery 5 in Shuttles with 20 Injectors, and the skills you get are all useful. But you would have more luck by first calculating the ISK cost total of each individual Mastery Tree and then just add them up depending on the ship your doing the math with. |
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
2213
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Posted - 2016.02.16 21:08:40 -
[15] - Quote
Just checked, Merlin mastery 5 would take me about ~100 more days to train ...  ... and the skills left are almost completely useless for the usual Merlin fit and fight, like Trajectory Analysis 5 for a hybrid platform ...
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Ibutho Inkosi
Irubo Kovu
157
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Posted - 2016.02.16 22:35:41 -
[16] - Quote
Now, there's a couple of laundry lists we coulda done without.
As long as the tale of the hunt is told by the hunter, and not the lion, it will favor the hunter.
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Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
1915
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Posted - 2016.02.16 23:11:23 -
[17] - Quote
People seriously over-rate the value of EVE "experience".
Sure a new player working it out for themselves solo with a bit of google help can still be incompetent after years.
But a keen pilot with a friend/corp-mate willing (or paid ISK) to spend a few hours every night showing them the ropes and talking them through stuff on voice chat can be up to speed in a particular ship/combat-style in a matter of weeks. |
Chopper Rollins
Lantean Empire
1236
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Posted - 2016.02.17 09:30:13 -
[18] - Quote
OP, you're two months older than my main. Not sure how much you've played or how many breaks you've taken but you seem to be amazingly ignorant about some really important basics in this game.
The way core skills unlock so much else in the game for starters.
The way people who know what they're doing with mastery IV in an incursus will have a close fight with a lower sp player flying a good fit, but win because they can rock two t2 reppers due to the core cpu/grid/cap skills maxed.
The way having mastery V does nothing to help with choosing when to engage and when to run.
I was flying with a bunch of other terribads led by an experienced FC, we were up against a sov null pvp alliance gang. They jumped through a gate into us arranged at our optimals and were toasted. They got wrecked for weeks by rifters backed by blackbirds.
Turned out their alliance had lost most of it's FCs due to burn out and normal attrition.
Nobody will ever be able to buy enough SP to make that happen or make them aware of it happening.
Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
FETID
2497
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Posted - 2016.02.17 09:44:16 -
[19] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Fa Xian wrote:
Anyone want to work out Mastery 5 Tengu? :)
not that much extra , you already have the core skills from your Merlin. would still get your ass kicked in the first fight you picked though
i would think it would be quite a bit more considering all subsystems and cruiser/strategic cruiser skills along with missile skills
FETID now recruiting pvp pilots & corporations | lowsec pvp & piracy - Join FETID
Loyalist to Angel Cartel & Serpentis
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Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
314
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Posted - 2016.02.17 10:34:53 -
[20] - Quote
WTF is this mastery?! 
Just Add Water
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Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
49
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Posted - 2016.02.17 16:19:52 -
[21] - Quote
Chopper Rollins wrote:Not sure how much you've played or how many breaks you've taken but you seem to be amazingly ignorant about some really important basics in this game.
It is merely working out some details on costs. There have been a lot of claims on the forum that skill trading means people will just buy their way to V in everything. I just wanted to see how much that'd cost.
But you know what? You're quite petty and low to insult me over just showing some math. You might want to think about how such a rude response provides little benefit to anyone. And makes you look bad. And contributes to the disaster area this forum generally is... I'm not making a statement. I'm showing some research. Excoriating me shows your lack of character.
Quote:Nobody will ever be able to buy enough SP to make that happen or make them aware of it happening.
I'm glad we agree.
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Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
49
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Posted - 2016.02.17 16:21:35 -
[22] - Quote
I forgot to account for buying the skills. Not sure that's really going to add a lot... |
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
49
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Posted - 2016.02.17 16:35:46 -
[23] - Quote
Nat Silverguard wrote:WTF is this mastery?!
Show info on a ship. Look for the Mastery tab.
It's really just a premise for the problem. Several have pointed out that it's not an ideal build. True enough I suppose... but for the exercise it is a simple enough metric, standard and reasonable.
The most compelling observation so far is the idea that you could perhaps go to Mastery III in many ships for a smaller amount of real money. This wouldn't be pay to win, but you could unlock a lot of the game quickly.
It's 30M to Mastery V. It's 1M to Mastery III.
28 plex is US$489.86. At 1.2B per plex, that's 33.6B isk. About 42-48 injectors? That's 18.2M sp.
What can you skill into for 18.2M sp?
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Sneaky Little Bastard
State War Academy
Caldari State
11
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Posted - 2016.02.17 16:42:11 -
[24] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:
What can you skill into for 18.2M sp?
Another game I guess :) |
Lady Ayeipsia
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
1003
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Posted - 2016.02.17 18:16:39 -
[25] - Quote
Part of the problem this highlights is that the Mastery does not necessarily equal reality of fits. For example, the damage shield comp skills are of little value. They only apply to passive shield resist mods. Generally on a merlin, you would not waste a slot for such a mod.
On the other hand, you list no rig skills. Even on a frig, people fit rigs and the skill's reduction to rig penalty can be a big help.
This is not to say the math exercise is bad. It is a great example of the cost to achieve a CCP defined metric. However it also shows how having the skills alone on your character isn't enough to know what is going on. |
Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
49
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Posted - 2016.02.17 20:23:19 -
[26] - Quote
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:This is not to say the math exercise is bad. It is a great example of the cost to achieve a CCP defined metric.
Don't like the list? Propose another. Will it really be different in total skill points? By how much?
Was it valid to pick a Merlin? I don't even fly them. It just seems a common popular ship. I could have picked a Dominix. Or a Drake. It's just an example to see how much real money you'd need to unlock a ship...
Quote:However it also shows how having the skills alone on your character isn't enough to know what is going on.
Agreed. This doesn't make you a good pilot. |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
1089
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Posted - 2016.02.17 20:53:18 -
[27] - Quote
If nothing else, skill injection is at least good for entertaining threads .
Remove insurance.
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Chopper Rollins
Lantean Empire
1240
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Posted - 2016.02.17 22:02:41 -
[28] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:But you know what? You're quite petty and low to insult me over just showing some math. You might want to think about how such a rude response provides little benefit to anyone. And makes you look bad. And contributes to the disaster area this forum generally is... I'm not making a statement. I'm showing some research. Excoriating me shows your lack of character.
The pointless math you're doing shows your ignorance of basics i described in my post. If you think ignorance being pointed out is insulting you're in the wrong forum to be waving it around so wildly.
I swear this is getting like an Infinity Ziona thread.
Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
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Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
741
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Posted - 2016.02.18 03:04:32 -
[29] - Quote
I don't know that I have mastery V on anything. Most of the masterys have some requirement that is of zero utility and so it is a waste to train. Advanced Target Management V for example. Or a ship might require all shield skills at V because one "could" shield tank a ship, I never shield tank.
My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
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Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
316
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Posted - 2016.02.18 03:52:39 -
[30] - Quote
Iria Ahrens wrote:I don't know that I have mastery V on anything. Most of the masterys have some requirement that is of zero utility and so it is a waste to train. Advanced Target Management V for example. Or a ship might require all shield skills at V because one "could" shield tank a ship, I never shield tank.
yeah, +1 to this. i don't even have mastery level 1 on my oneiros even if that's one of the top 5 ships i fly because training for remote hull repairer is not necessary for me now.
i also don't shield tank so my shield skills are low. and afaik, there are no ship that can lock more than 10 targets (without using the signal amplifier and auto targeting mods) so training advanced target managment to 5 is a waste.
Just Add Water
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Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
286
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Posted - 2016.02.18 04:34:32 -
[31] - Quote
There are many mastery skills that don't necessarily apply to some of the fits I use, like my shield Astero/Stratios. I got lots of ships to mastery II is that good?
Though in my early career I stared a lot at that ship tree. It is a nice layout 
@lunettelulu7
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unidenify
Plundering Penguins
Solyaris Chtonium
179
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Posted - 2016.02.18 04:37:44 -
[32] - Quote
Nat Silverguard wrote:Iria Ahrens wrote:I don't know that I have mastery V on anything. Most of the masterys have some requirement that is of zero utility and so it is a waste to train. Advanced Target Management V for example. Or a ship might require all shield skills at V because one "could" shield tank a ship, I never shield tank.
yeah, +1 to this. i don't even have mastery level 1 on my oneiros even if that's one of the top 5 ships i fly because training for remote hull repairer is not necessary for me now. i also don't shield tank so my shield skills are low. and afaik, there are no ship that can lock more than 10 targets (without using the signal amplifier and auto targeting mods) so training advanced target managment to 5 is a waste.
Marauder can lock 13 targets when bastion is active
but as you and other said, most skill are pointless to get 5 since I probably will never use it |
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
317
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Posted - 2016.02.18 05:55:21 -
[33] - Quote
unidenify wrote:Nat Silverguard wrote:Iria Ahrens wrote:I don't know that I have mastery V on anything. Most of the masterys have some requirement that is of zero utility and so it is a waste to train. Advanced Target Management V for example. Or a ship might require all shield skills at V because one "could" shield tank a ship, I never shield tank.
yeah, +1 to this. i don't even have mastery level 1 on my oneiros even if that's one of the top 5 ships i fly because training for remote hull repairer is not necessary for me now. i also don't shield tank so my shield skills are low. and afaik, there are no ship that can lock more than 10 targets (without using the signal amplifier and auto targeting mods) so training advanced target managment to 5 is a waste. Marauder can lock 13 targets when bastion is active but as you and other said, most skill are pointless to get 5 since I probably will never use it
marauders, TIL, thanks. i read it was mostly for pve so i didn't train for them, i went blops instead, well still training atm. 
Just Add Water
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Avaelica Kuershin
Paper Cats
239
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Posted - 2016.02.18 06:27:08 -
[34] - Quote
Fa Xian wrote:
Was it valid to pick a Merlin? I don't even fly them. It just seems a common popular ship. I could have picked a Dominix. Or a Drake. It's just an example to see how much real money you'd need to unlock a ship...
Why would you need mastery V to unlock a ship?
I go by what I need in order to fit a ship for its purpose, and (IMHO) usually Mastery II or III will cover the vast majority of use cases.
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Fa Xian
Furious Timewasters
52
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Posted - 2016.02.18 22:29:46 -
[35] - Quote
Iria Ahrens wrote:I don't know that I have mastery V on anything.
Me either.
It's not the point. The point was to pick some arbitrary pile of skills and look at the cost in dollars. This set is just an easily accessible set everyone can see in the game. Don't like it? Pick a different set. |
Memphis Baas
1149
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Posted - 2016.02.19 12:55:16 -
[36] - Quote
As it's been said, Mastery 5 is not necessary, esp. considering that the skill certifications are skewed towards over-training and may contain useless skills. Basically, the certs have been done a while ago (procedurally generated, too), and CCP hasn't kept up with the player meta-game (how we currently fit ships).
A more sensible plan is to have the ship and support skills at 4, with select skills (Energy, Shield Management, various Armor skills, etc.) at 5, and then worry about Tech 2 weapon prerequisite skills. Per ship that can take 2-6 months, depending on whether you're talking about frigate vs. battleship.
If you want to do it "per everything" (pick 2 races so you have some choices, and train all their ships), it's about 60 million skillpoints, 3 years. Takes 1 year to get ALL skills to 4 across the board, another year for quite a few skills to 5 because they are prerequisites or really good, and finally Tech 2 weapons and Tech 2 ships.
Alternately, with the reduced prerequisites for capital ships and their weapons, it takes about 3 years / 60 million skillpoints to get into caps and have all the relevant capital skills at 5. People train these long skills to 5 because the ships are expensive and thus demand every single 5% that you can squeeze out of the skills. Plan starts similarly to the above, with support skills at 4-5, then the capital ships and relevant skills take a while.
These numbers are from personal experience doing it (I like to give up my mains and start alts periodically).
So, compared to this "most skills at 4" plan, a newbie can get support skills to 3 and frigates, cruisers, battlecruisers to 3-4 with T1 weapons in about 3 months. This gives them access to Tech 2 modules, but they're restricted to Tech 1 weapons and ships, so that puts them about 20% less firepower than a 60m SP veteran fitting similar T1 ships with T1 weapons. Tech 2 weapons and ammo are a big boost, so vs. a T2 weapons veteran they're probably 50% underpowered. Of course, there's no way to win 1 vs. 1 at 50%, but bring a couple friends and make it 3 vs. 1 and it's almost guaranteed.
This is one thing that's good about this game: the newbie has a chance, however small. Other MMO's, WoW, SWTOR, etc., have built-in accuracy penalties: if you're more than 5 levels below the enemy, you can't even hit them, nothing lands. High level Alliance entering Horde capital city, they can AoE newbies with impunity and not even get hit, despite the fact that they're probably fighting 100+ players at the same time.
In EVE, you can have a small fleet of 2-weeks-old frigates and kick veteran ass. |
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