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Shield extender rig vs armor hp rig

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Anton Cervantes Wasted Reavers Tre Kroner	Posted - 2007.02.03 18:18:00 - [1] Ehhr where is the balance in 15% extra hp for shield or armor for similar rigs with the same requirements where both have 10% drawback? They have drawbacks to different things but thats not the point. 15% extra shield hp is worth twice as much as 15% extra armor hp! You would never fit an armor hp rig unless it gave say 30% armor hp but shield rigs on the other hand makes a Drake's passive tank hold for any one attacking frigate and most cruisers with just 15%. And another thing about armor rigs. Who would ever want to use the much pointless nanobot accelerator instead of the auxiliary nano pump. Both increase the hp repaired per second by 15% and both make your ship 10% slower BUT then the firstly named rig will increase capacitor usage by 15% aswell. Stupid, very stupid.
Deathbarrage	Posted - 2007.02.03 18:57:00 - [2] Originally by: Anton Cervantes Ehhr where is the balance in 15% extra hp for shield or armor for similar rigs with the same requirements where both have 10% drawback? They have drawbacks to different things but thats not the point. 15% extra shield hp is worth twice as much as 15% extra armor hp! You would never fit an armor hp rig unless it gave say 30% armor hp but shield rigs on the other hand makes a Drake's passive tank hold for any one attacking frigate and most cruisers with just 15%. And another thing about armor rigs. Who would ever want to use the much pointless nanobot accelerator instead of the auxiliary nano pump. Both increase the hp repaired per second by 15% and both make your ship 10% slower BUT then the firstly named rig will increase capacitor usage by 15% aswell. Stupid, very stupid. shield tanking is generally better then armor tanking in pure tankage And -15% armor repairer duration increases your hp repped/sec by (15/85)*100% = 17,64% instead of the 15% of armor rep amount
Anton Cervantes Wasted Reavers Tre Kroner	Posted - 2007.02.04 00:55:00 - [3] Yeah you're right. It gives you 2.3% extra armor per second. Even so I think 15% less capacitor per hp repaired is preferable. Well that leaves the issue with 15% extra armor vs the same percentage of extra shield to be dealt with.
Anton Cervantes Wasted Reavers Tre Kroner	Posted - 2007.02.07 16:14:00 - [4] Is there noone else that realize 15% extra armor is worth NOTHING? With plates you can easily get 100% extra armor hp for about the same penalty just you use a low slot instead and can put a wonderful 30% resistance rig on instead.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2007.02.07 16:16:00 - [5] Originally by: Anton Cervantes Is there noone else that realize 15% extra armor is worth NOTHING? With plates you can easily get 100% extra armor hp for about the same penalty just you use a low slot instead and can put a wonderful 30% resistance rig on instead. with armor rigs and regenerative plating, you can get a titan with several million armor. I don't know of any way to get a several million shield titan, do you? Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Audri Fisher Caldari The Keep THE R0CK	Posted - 2007.02.07 17:15:00 - [6] Originally by: Anton Cervantes Is there noone else that realize 15% extra armor is worth NOTHING? With plates you can easily get 100% extra armor hp for about the same penalty just you use a low slot instead and can put a wonderful 30% resistance rig on instead. you may not have the PG to fit a plate on a given setup.
Anton Cervantes Wasted Reavers Tre Kroner	Posted - 2007.02.08 02:21:00 - [7] Originally by: Audri Fisher you may not have the PG to fit a plate on a given setup. There is not much point in having 15% extra armor if you have spent all your PG on armorreppers, NOSes and capacitor boosters. You either reptank or have a lot of hp to start with and you wont have pg problems unless you intend to use repper(s). It might be that the capitals benefit from the armor rigs, I dont know I dont fly them, but that would be a little wierd, wouldnt it? And why wouldnt a 15% shield rig be usable on a capital aswell as a 15% armor rig? So not considering capitals, 15% armor hp rig is useless and 15% shield hp rig is very usable. Lets say you have 10k armor on you pretty BS and fit a 1600mm plate giving you 4200 extra hp then that would be an increase of 42%. Instead you could fit a passive armor hardener of preffered type and get an increase of about that same percentage in one damage type. If you attempt to do any of these things with rigs instead you would get a nice 30% recist OR a mere 15% armor and the recistance rigs wont suffer from stacking penalty (or will they?). The point is that in every situation where you have one low slot and one rig slot to fill you will go with recistance rig and armor plate. For shield on the other hand every ship bigger than a cruiser would go 'wawawewa' on the hp rig.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.02.08 03:10:00 - [8] Let's put it this way... what other ways do you know to get a battleship to over 40k armor hitpoints (RAW, before resists, with slave implants) ? In a fleet battle, you couldn't care less about repair amount (heck, you could even run with ships WITHOUT any reppers), but you do care a lot about damage needed to take out a ship. _ MySkills \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
Anton Cervantes Wasted Reavers Tre Kroner	Posted - 2007.02.08 11:20:00 - [9] Originally by: Akita T Let's put it this way... what other ways do you know to get a battleship to over 40k armor hitpoints (RAW, before resists, with slave implants) ? In a fleet battle, you couldn't care less about repair amount (heck, you could even run with ships WITHOUT any reppers), but you do care a lot about damage needed to take out a ship. In a sniping fleet it would only be stupid to use reppers, yes and I dont think many ppl fit a repper for such occasions. You wont use the armor hp rigs though as you will fit 3 dmgrigs instead. 3 RoF rigs means your dps is increased by a bit over 30% and 3 hp rigs give you 45% extra armor but the extra hp will get lost in locking times and other occasions where the guns are not blazing. At least this goes for a somewhat large fleet of 20 - 30 BSs where primare target is instantly dealt 200k raw dmg. Im not sure that that was a valid explenation but still, 15% shield is better than 15% armor as 15% shield not only increase the hp but also the recharge rate by 15%. In a fleet battle this wouldnt matter much but Im just guessing there was a reason for ccp to make armor hp mods twice as good as shield hp mods in pre-rig eve.
Anton Cervantes Wasted Reavers Tre Kroner	Posted - 2007.02.08 11:21:00 - [10] Edited by: Anton Cervantes on 08/02/2007 11:20:21 Doubble

DarkFenix Caldari Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.08 11:38:00 - [11] Perhaps using an armour hp rig will free up a low slot or two for a stronger tank?
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.02.08 11:46:00 - [12] First of all, on a fleet damage-dealing BS, 3 RoF rigs wreak havoc with your powergrid, even at max rigging skill. You'll probably be forced to fit smaller guns, or at least one (if not two) RCUs. Second, if you already have damage mods on your ship (and I suppose most, if not ALL fleet setups do have at least two of them), you'll find that the RoF rigs are pretty worthless, due to the fact they're stacking-nerfed TOGETHER with the damage mod RoF bonus. In other words, if you fit RoF rigs, it would be a total waste to fit damage mods, and you need to equip fiting mods... so what's the benefit ? In fact, it's as if you just lost several slots all at once. You say you get up to 200k worth of raw damage in one volley from 30-some BSs... well, I'd really want to know what kind of ranges you're fighting at, because that's a 6+k average raw damage alpha-strike per enemy BS, not the kind of alpha you expect in a typical longer-range battle (heck, I'd say 3k alpha is a lot at long ranges if you ask me). As for the damage dealt, well, if your lowest resist is 70+% and your total armor is 40k+ (plus 5-10k shield, plus 6-9k structure with hopefully 60% resist), that's probably around 160-170k worth of raw damage to take you out in one volley. Still, now ponder this... if the enemy is running around with 3 RoF rigs and 2 damage mods, but your side is running around with 3 armor amount rigs and 2 damage mods... so they get maybe +10% damage output (at best, if they are not forced to use fiting modules or lesser weapons), but you get +50% armor per ship... who'll win the encounter, you or them ? _ MySkills \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.08 11:54:00 - [13] Penalty for armor rigs is too harsh. Sure you can tank, but you will die because you can't move. Shield tank... anything bigger than cruiser size is full of extenders anyway and WILL be hit well enough by anything. Only difference your sig makes is if some capital ship decides to shoot at you, but how often do you meet these? -------- .....
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.08 12:07:00 - [14] Originally by: LUKEC Penalty for armor rigs is too harsh. Sure you can tank, but you will die because you can't move. Shield tank... anything bigger than cruiser size is full of extenders anyway and WILL be hit well enough by anything. Only difference your sig makes is if some capital ship decides to shoot at you, but how often do you meet these? the penalty is in fact bennefical to a fleet ship. Sicne it can warp away faster when its targeted. any smart fleet BS should be using a few armro HP rigs. My tempest used to have a power rig 1 Hp 1 falloff and i had powergrid enoug to fit 2 1600 plates in the lows and all out arty in the ups. So armor HP rigs do have its roles.. and are quite nice on it. And remember that CCp is trying to make people shield tank a little bit more. That would solve the "amarian problem" If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!!
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.02.08 12:11:00 - [15] You need at least one, maybe two sensor boosters. Missiles are out of the question, so you're left with a handfull of ships you can chose from, the Rokh being the most obvious choice, because of the high shield resist, highest base shield HP and the optimal range bonus for hybrids. You use 2 of the mids for sensor boosters, you use another two (the very least, usually three) for hardners, so you're left with only 2 slots (or even just one), where you might want an AB/MWD (not likely) and at least one tracking computer (if not two, so the MWD is completely out of the question)... leaving you little or no room at all for shield extenders. In fleet setups, you kind of have to have a damage control and two damage mods, so that leaves you two lows to play with. Ok, so maybe you want to sacrifice the remaining lows for tracking enchancers, so you can fit some extenders in the mids... but wait, you need more grid almost for sure, as you fit 425s in the highs, right ? Bottom line, just try to figure out how the heck to get a long-range high-damage dealing, high resist, high-HP shield buffer fleet ship (think at least 30k shield HP) and my hat's off to you... especially since there are exactly two implants that increase shield HP... one by a mere 5%, the other only for gang by 15% (but needs high SP for it, and there's a corresponding identical armor one)... whereas you get craploads of armor amount boosting ones (the entire slave set, some of the 'Noble' series, etc). I know you CAN'T get close to the "alpha resist" _ MySkills \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.08 12:32:00 - [16] Edited by: LUKEC on 08/02/2007 12:29:35 Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: LUKEC Penalty for armor rigs is too harsh. Sure you can tank, but you will die because you can't move. Shield tank... anything bigger than cruiser size is full of extenders anyway and WILL be hit well enough by anything. Only difference your sig makes is if some capital ship decides to shoot at you, but how often do you meet these? the penalty is in fact bennefical to a fleet ship. Sicne it can warp away faster when its targeted. any smart fleet BS should be using a few armro HP rigs. My tempest used to have a power rig 1 Hp 1 falloff and i had powergrid enoug to fit 2 1600 plates in the lows and all out arty in the ups. So armor HP rigs do have its roles.. and are quite nice on it. And remember that CCp is trying to make people shield tank a little bit more. That would solve the "amarian problem" You don't jump into camps often, do you? Edit: It might work with hyperion & tempest due to quite faster base speed. Rest are just too slow. -------- .....
Anton Cervantes Wasted Reavers Tre Kroner	Posted - 2007.02.08 17:39:00 - [17] When I wrote earlier I didnt know rigs suffered stacking penalty there is no info in the rigs about that. I now see that dmg/RoF rigs are out of the question for long range fleet battles so there might be a use for the armor rigs anyway. No stacking for armor hp rigs mean they are worth fitting but considering the cost and the very puny, tiny bonus of 45% armor hp I say they are not worth it. Soooo rigs are useless in long range fleet battles of 20-30 BSs as they do about 3k raw dmg per strike. You wont have 20k hp with recists of 70% as you use 3 or four low slots for dmg mods. Well I guess rigs just arent made for fleet battles so well go over to small gank squads and solo pvp. In this category 15% shield is worth alot more than 15% armor. It might be that ccp wanted to get more shield tankers and thus changed the balance a bit but the balance is changed no matter what and that was what I initially wanted to point out. Btw thank you for all your hard work on stacking penalties and stuff, really appreiciate it!
D'onryu Shoqui Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.08 17:49:00 - [18] Quote: Let's put it this way... what other ways do you know to get a battleship to over 40k armor hitpoints (RAW, before resists, with slave implants) ? In a fleet battle, you couldn't care less about repair amount (heck, you could even run with ships WITHOUT any reppers), but you do care a lot about damage needed to take out a ship. in a fleet battle you couldnt care less about having a tank on your battleship (unless its to tank a DD). dmg mods > tank focused fire in fleets = your going boom regardless of your tank ------------------------------ My opinions are my own and not that of the alliance i belong to.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.02.08 19:21:00 - [19] Originally by: D'onryu Shoqui in a fleet battle you couldnt care less about having a tank on your battleship (unless its to tank a DD). dmg mods > tank focused fire in fleets = your going boom regardless of your tank In a "traditional" long-range fleet combat, you couldn't be more wrong. A third damage mod barely adds 10% extra damage, if that much. So, what's the point of fiting a third or even a fourth one, when you could snap one or two extra plates in there for anything between +25% to +100% extra base armor (depending on ship and number of plates already on there) ? First of all, you'll be more than able to tank a DD (especially an EMP one, lol), and it will take a lot longer to bring you down (or MORE focused fire). Now, I can't believe a FC only calls a SINGLE primary for the ENTIRE fleet, now does any ? You'd expect at most a wing (50 ships) to fire on a primary, each wing with a different primary, right ? If you focus too much fire on a single target, you waste a lot of your firepower... not focus enough, and the enemy has a chance to escape... so in case of an equal-numbers encounter, it's like a game of reversed blackjack... you have to go as low as possible to still insta-pop, and insta-pop as many targets as you can. Besides, it's not 45% extra armor, it's +52% extra armor. Not that 7% matters that much, but still. Now, think 2 extra plates, hull upgrades 5 (10% extra), then 52% extra from rigs, and you get 14k extra armor points. That's not negligible if you ask me, that's over 45k worth of raw damage, or nearly 15 extra heavily-damagemodded BSs to instapop you (not counting the extra armor you already have on that gets boosted by 52%, so let's just assume it's 20 extra BS volleys)... at the same time, your side only sacrificed up to 15% damage in order to gain that 40-50% increase in survivability... get most your called primaries out on hull instead of dead, but you killed all THEIR primaries, yours can go repair, they need to get fresh ships... even if they start focusing more fire in the next rounds, that means they take out much less ships every time, while you still take out only about 10-15% less as you would have before. Oh well, you know what, DON'T use those rigs. _ MySkills \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
Anton Cervantes Wasted Reavers Tre Kroner	Posted - 2007.02.08 22:20:00 - [20] Edited by: Anton Cervantes on 08/02/2007 22:22:12 Edited by: Anton Cervantes on 08/02/2007 22:21:21

Anton Cervantes Wasted Reavers Tre Kroner	Posted - 2007.02.08 22:25:00 - [21] Edited by: Anton Cervantes on 08/02/2007 22:22:57 previous post is flaud and I cant edit it. A 1400mm tempset does 3000 raw dmg with long range ammo. Adding gyrostabs give you 3000 x 1.1 x 1.087 x 1.057 x 1.028 = ~3900 raw dmg with 4 dmg mods (3795 with 3 dmg mods and about 3940 with 5). So Id say you want 4 mods wich leaves you with 2 low slots. First of you could increase your durability with an EANM2 for about 20-25% and then offcourse a 1600mm rt plate doubling your hp eg. 100%. As you have about the same amount of armor and hull hp a DCU would mean the same as a plate but unless you have only one low slot and are short on pg a plate is preferrable dont you think? BTW hull upg lvl5 gives you 25% hp not 10%.
Anton Cervantes Wasted Reavers Tre Kroner	Posted - 2007.02.08 22:28:00 - [22] Edited by: Anton Cervantes on 08/02/2007 22:24:40
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.08 22:40:00 - [23] Originally by: LUKEC Edited by: LUKEC on 08/02/2007 12:29:35 Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: LUKEC Penalty for armor rigs is too harsh. Sure you can tank, but you will die because you can't move. Shield tank... anything bigger than cruiser size is full of extenders anyway and WILL be hit well enough by anything. Only difference your sig makes is if some capital ship decides to shoot at you, but how often do you meet these? the penalty is in fact bennefical to a fleet ship. Sicne it can warp away faster when its targeted. any smart fleet BS should be using a few armro HP rigs. My tempest used to have a power rig 1 Hp 1 falloff and i had powergrid enoug to fit 2 1600 plates in the lows and all out arty in the ups. So armor HP rigs do have its roles.. and are quite nice on it. And remember that CCp is trying to make people shield tank a little bit more. That would solve the "amarian problem" You don't jump into camps often, do you? Edit: It might work with hyperion & tempest due to quite faster base speed. Rest are just too slow. No I dont. I use scouts... you should try it.... If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!!


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