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Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2007.02.13 10:26:00 - [31] It is not a flat 50% hit chance in falloff anyway. It is 50% at optimal + falloff. At optimal + 1/2 falloff, it is still roughly 85% of your optimal hit chance. And goes down on a curve. The tracking guide display that nicely. --------- There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Kestrel
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.13 11:20:00 - [32] Edited by: Goumindong on 13/02/2007 11:17:20 Originally by: Socrates Nacht Before you fit anti-matter into the guns, yes. After you fit antimatter and fusion/phased plasma into the guns, no its not. The range bonuses on Fusion and PP only affect optimal. The only projectile ammo that negatively impacts your AC's range is Hail, while the only ammo that positively affects your range is Barrage. Generally, ACs will outrange blasters, and since AC boats are faster than blasterboats... I am not sure what you are saying. Blasters as well as ACs have low optimal. Blasters have higher optimal and lower falloff, ACs have higher optimal and lower falloff. Using standard[no mod] ammo, the ranges on the ships come out similar. Since the optimal penalty on fusion and phased plasma[and emp] is less than that of anti-matter due to the lower optimal of ACs. The optimal+Falloff is no longer equal when using those ammos because the penalty has a larger effect. This is why ACs outrange blasters. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Socrates Nacht Caldari Red Light Enterprises	Posted - 2007.02.14 04:18:00 - [33] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 13/02/2007 12:36:32 Edited by: Goumindong on 13/02/2007 11:17:20 Originally by: Socrates Nacht Quote: Before you fit anti-matter into the guns, yes. After you fit antimatter and fusion/phased plasma into the guns, no its not. The range bonuses on Fusion and PP only affect optimal. The only projectile ammo that negatively impacts your AC's range is Hail, while the only ammo that positively affects your range is Barrage. Generally, ACs will outrange blasters, and since AC boats are faster than blasterboats... I am not sure what you are saying. Blasters as well as ACs have low optimal. Blasters have higher optimal and lower falloff, ACs have higher optimal and lower falloff. Using standard[no mod] ammo, the ranges on the ships come out similar. Since the optimal penalty on fusion and phased plasma[and emp] is less than that of anti-matter due to the lower optimal of ACs. The optimal+Falloff is no longer equal when using those ammos because the penalty has a larger effect. This is why ACs outrange blasters. ACs have lower optimal and higher falloff. The range penalties/bonuses on t1 ammo only affect optimal, and ACs have very small optimal already. Therefore, your range is effectively the same with all t1 projectile ammo.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.14 04:39:00 - [34] i dont think you understand what i am saying. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Socrates Nacht Caldari Red Light Enterprises	Posted - 2007.02.14 04:49:00 - [35] Originally by: Goumindong i dont think you understand what i am saying. 1. You are claiming that ACs and blasters both have high(er) optimal and low falloff. 2. You then say that commonly used AC ammo like EMP and PP have range penalties, but the are not as severe as Antimatter's range penalty. 3. You are then using the above statement (number two) to explain why ACs have longer effective ranges. Number one is false, but I think you may have made a typo. Number two is true, but it's not proof for number three. Even if projectile ammo had more severe range penalties, they would still outrange blasters. We both agree that ACs outrange blasters, and that range penalties are part of the reason, but you seem to be claiming that the range penalties actually affect both ACs and blasters.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.14 05:55:00 - [36] Yup, you dont understand what I am saying. ACs and Blasters have similar Optimal + Falloff when using standard ammo. However, since autocannons have a much lower optimal range, and PP/Fusion have smaller range penalties than antimatter does, after you fit high damage ammo into your guns, they no longer have a similar optimal + falloff. Hence the comment "yes, until they fit Antimatter and phased plasma/fusion" ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Socrates Nacht Caldari Red Light Enterprises	Posted - 2007.02.14 06:16:00 - [37] Edited by: Socrates Nacht on 14/02/2007 06:14:18 Originally by: Goumindong Yup, you dont understand what I am saying. ACs and Blasters have similar Optimal + Falloff when using standard ammo. However, since autocannons have a much lower optimal range, and PP/Fusion have smaller range penalties than antimatter does, after you fit high damage ammo into your guns, they no longer have a similar optimal + falloff. Hence the comment "yes, until they fit Antimatter and phased plasma/fusion" Light Neutron II: Optimal: 1800 Falloff: 2500 200mm AC II: Optimal: 1200 Falloff: 4000 --------------- Heavy Neutron II: Optimal: 3600 Falloff: 5000 425mm AC II Optimal: 2400 Falloff: 8000 --------------- Neutron Blaster Cannon II Optimal: 7200 Falloff: 10000 800mm AC II Optimal: 4800 Falloff: 16000 --------------- Blasters and ACs clearly do not have similar optimal + falloff. I'm being very generous with using the highest tier blasters, Electrons and Ions have even lower optimal + falloff. What I don't understand is why you are so focused over the range penalties from Fusion and PP. You have admitted that ACs have very low optimal, and you are aware by now that range penalties/bonuses only affect optimal. Therefore, Fusion and PP do little to affect AC range. "PP/Fusion have smaller range penalties than antimatter does, after you fit high damage ammo into your guns, they no longer have a similar optimal + falloff." You are using the fact that PP/Fusion have smaller range penalties than antimatter as reason as to why ACs outrange blasters. Aside from the fact that ACs naturally outrange blasters, it would not matter if PP/Fusion had twice the range penalty of antimatter; blasters would STILL not out range ACs.
DrEiak Amarr IONSTAR Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.14 06:18:00 - [38] This is an interesting topic and the 1st NON OP post on this is correct assuming that we are not considering that minmataar get double damage bonuses on MANY ships, an autopest tempest out DPSs a megathron at ANY range and tracks better too. IMHO autocannons are overpowered because with DOUBLE dmg bonus the DPS they deal can be rediculous (+50% more dmg then tach 2's or about 20-30% more then Pulse) but this assumes there is DOUBLE dmg bonuses, I dont think that base stats of autocannons are overpowered but when applied to certain ships i disagree, especially since i think the INTENTION of double damage bonus is more of an artillery focus, I always thought why dont they FIX artillery instead of give minnies a bonus that make autocannon so uber. HOWEVER I do think if double minnie dmg bonus was removed and arties got boost to RoF i think autocannons COULD get a slight boost to dmg since the BASE STATS (that which say an autocannon on a maller perhaps) would get DPS wise is fairly average. When we consider that the weapon is cap free, though, and uses so little powergrid and CPU, I REALLY think autocannons need higher fitting requirements... at least compared to the issues for fitting blasters on gallente, OR heaven forbit lasers on amarr. AND dont even get me started on fitting for caldari... thats a sore subject :P
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.14 06:22:00 - [39] Edited by: Goumindong on 14/02/2007 06:19:37 Yea, their optimal + falloff is within about 1km of each other using base ammo... 2km for med guns and 3km for large guns. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Socrates Nacht Caldari Red Light Enterprises	Posted - 2007.02.14 06:58:00 - [40] Originally by: DrEiak This is an interesting topic and the 1st NON OP post on this is correct assuming that we are not considering that minmataar get double damage bonuses on MANY ships, an autopest tempest out DPSs a megathron at ANY range and tracks better too. IMHO autocannons are overpowered because with DOUBLE dmg bonus the DPS they deal can be rediculous (+50% more dmg then tach 2's or about 20-30% more then Pulse) but this assumes there is DOUBLE dmg bonuses, I dont think that base stats of autocannons are overpowered but when applied to certain ships i disagree, especially since i think the INTENTION of double damage bonus is more of an artillery focus, I always thought why dont they FIX artillery instead of give minnies a bonus that make autocannon so uber. HOWEVER I do think if double minnie dmg bonus was removed and arties got boost to RoF i think autocannons COULD get a slight boost to dmg since the BASE STATS (that which say an autocannon on a maller perhaps) would get DPS wise is fairly average. When we consider that the weapon is cap free, though, and uses so little powergrid and CPU, I REALLY think autocannons need higher fitting requirements... at least compared to the issues for fitting blasters on gallente, OR heaven forbit lasers on amarr. AND dont even get me started on fitting for caldari... thats a sore subject :P Wrong and wrong. ACs have poor DPS, it's unlikely for a Tempest to outdamage a thron under 20km (null, anyone?) without tracking disruptors, and many Gallente ships get a bonus to tracking speed, so the "ACs track marginally better" point is moot. Projectiles need damage bonuses just to be considered "inferior" to other weapon systems in terms of DPS. Obviously, projectile weapons have other advantages to counterbalance the low DPS, but nothing that makes them overpowered. Have you ever tried using autocannons on a ship without projectile damage bonuses? Punisher, Maller, etc. I guarantee you'll have an impossibly hard time killing anything with a decent tank. Uber, right. @Goum: I mentioned I was being generous with using Neutrons as comparison, and you are certainly not being generous with your range estimates. 6200 - 4300 = Less than 1000? 20800 - 17200 = 3000? Besides, how many blasterboats can fit a full rack of neutrons without gimping their setup? Perhaps you'd like to see the range diff with the more commonly used Ions. And my other points have yet to be addressed. On the other hand, feel free to drop it right here. We both agree that the end result is the same: ACs outrange blasters.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.14 07:28:00 - [41] Edited by: Goumindong on 14/02/2007 07:30:04 5200 - 4300 = 900 10400 - 8600 = 1800 whatever the big guns are = 3600 ed: You dont have any other points. The claim was made that they have similar ranges and i said that yes, they do have similar ranges until you start sticking high damage ammo in them, at which point, no they dont have similar ranges. ED: ACs dont have weak DPS any way you look at it. Also ACs on punishers, mallers, and prophecies typically do more damage than pulses on the same boats. RAW DPS and acutal DPS. But that is another issue. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Socrates Nacht Caldari Red Light Enterprises	Posted - 2007.02.14 09:48:00 - [42] Originally by: Goumindong i dont think you understand what i am saying.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.14 09:56:00 - [43] Originally by: DrEiak This is an interesting topic and the 1st NON OP post on this is correct assuming that we are not considering that minmataar get double damage bonuses on MANY ships, an autopest tempest out DPSs a megathron at ANY range and tracks better too. IMHO autocannons are overpowered because with DOUBLE dmg bonus the DPS they deal can be rediculous (+50% more dmg then tach 2's or about 20-30% more then Pulse) but this assumes there is DOUBLE dmg bonuses, I dont think that base stats of autocannons are overpowered but when applied to certain ships i disagree, especially since i think the INTENTION of double damage bonus is more of an artillery focus, I always thought why dont they FIX artillery instead of give minnies a bonus that make autocannon so uber. HOWEVER I do think if double minnie dmg bonus was removed and arties got boost to RoF i think autocannons COULD get a slight boost to dmg since the BASE STATS (that which say an autocannon on a maller perhaps) would get DPS wise is fairly average. When we consider that the weapon is cap free, though, and uses so little powergrid and CPU, I REALLY think autocannons need higher fitting requirements... at least compared to the issues for fitting blasters on gallente, OR heaven forbit lasers on amarr. AND dont even get me started on fitting for caldari... thats a sore subject :P are you forgeting on purpose that all minmatar ships that have the double bonus have LESS TURRETS than the gallente conterpart? A tempest will NOT outdps the megathron, and the tempest uses its secodn bonus just to get close to mega dps, while the mega still have a seco0nd very usefull bonus. If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!!
Wrayeth The Black Rabbits Fatal Persuasion	Posted - 2007.02.14 10:51:00 - [44] Edited by: Wrayeth on 14/02/2007 10:48:45 Edited by: Wrayeth on 14/02/2007 10:47:53 Originally by: DrEiak IMHO autocannons are overpowered because with DOUBLE dmg bonus the DPS they deal can be rediculous (+50% more dmg then tach 2's Of course they deal more damage than tachyons - tachyons are long range, low damage weapons; autocannons are short range, high damage weapons. Quote: or about 20-30% more then Pulse) Kagura covered this - the tempest has 1 fewer turret than the 'geddon, and 2 fewer turrets than the apoc and the abaddon. Originally by: Kagura Nikon A tempest will NOT outdps the megathron, and the tempest uses its secodn bonus just to get close to mega dps, while the mega still have a seco0nd very usefull bonus. Quoted for absolute truth. Not only do blasters on a mega kick out several hundred more DPS than ACs on a tempest, but the mega also has a larger drone bay and can field more heavy drones, increasing the DPS difference even further. In fact, if anything, right now large autocannons are somewhat underpowered. The mediums and smalls seem to be fine, but large AC DPS is not enough to deal with many modern battleship tanks, unfortunately. A small damage bonus wouldn't be amiss, but I doubt it will ever happen. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" Might As well Train Another Race
The Hanz Caldari Ordo Rosa Crux Templaris	Posted - 2007.02.14 12:11:00 - [45] Originally by: Samirol blasters you go up and kick the *****es in the face ACs you beat them with a bat Well said.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.14 13:36:00 - [46] Originally by: Socrates Nacht Originally by: Goumindong i dont think you understand what i am saying. I understand quite clearly what you are saying. Its just wrong. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Socrates Nacht Caldari Red Light Enterprises	Posted - 2007.02.14 13:53:00 - [47] Talking to yourself. What am I saying?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.14 14:28:00 - [48] Edited by: Goumindong on 14/02/2007 14:26:11 Originally by: Socrates Nacht Talking to yourself. What am I saying? You were saying that I didnt understand what you were talking about. Unless you were actualy triyng to say that you dont understand what you are talking about, in which case, i rescind my statement. Originally by: "Wayreth" Quoted for absolute truth. Not only do blasters on a mega kick out several hundred more DPS than ACs on a tempest, but the mega also has a larger drone bay and can field more heavy drones, increasing the DPS difference even further. In fact, if anything, right now large autocannons are somewhat underpowered. The mediums and smalls seem to be fine, but large AC DPS is not enough to deal with many modern battleship tanks, unfortunately. A small damage bonus wouldn't be amiss, but I doubt it will ever happen. But that estimation large pulse lasers would be severly underpowered. Both assertions are false. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Mogren Freelance Federation Mining and Munitions	Posted - 2007.02.14 16:05:00 - [49] I found this thread interesting because I was just thinking about replacing my blasters with autocannons on my Myrmidon specifically for Angels ratting in 0.0. I figured the explosive ammo and lack of cap usage would help out alot. In this case would the switch be a good idea?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.14 16:07:00 - [50] Originally by: Mogren I found this thread interesting because I was just thinking about replacing my blasters with autocannons on my Myrmidon specifically for Angels ratting in 0.0. I figured the explosive ammo and lack of cap usage would help out alot. In this case would the switch be a good idea? Yes, it will help tons. Easier to fit as well. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Miso Saemi Salvation Sisterhood	Posted - 2007.02.14 18:53:00 - [51] Can I have help with a actual example? Someone earlier said using autocannon on a ship without dmg bonus was weak. Let's take Myrmidon. It have no dmg bonus and 6 turret. If i'm gonna use a close range MWD+Web setup, which fitting would you use ? 6 blasters or 6 autocannons ? The autocannon have less dps, but are easier to fit. But the blasters kill faster...
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.14 19:02:00 - [52] But the autocannons let you dedicate your entire low slots to damage. 425 ACs will run about 12% less damage than Electron Blasters. They will track worse and have a lot better range. If you are having capacitor issues or just want to dedicate your entire cap to tank, run the ACs. If you arent having capacitor issues and want to do a bit more damage, fit Blasters. It should also be noted that ACs, since they fire explosive ammo will give your heavy drone myrm a way to diversify damage a bit. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Socrates Nacht Caldari Red Light Enterprises	Posted - 2007.02.15 02:22:00 - [53] The lowest tier blasters outdamage the highest tier autocannons by a goody amount. Also, wait for the blaster purists to barge in and scream about Electrons not being true blasters. If I had fitting problems on the myrm, I'd probably just fit Light Neutrons in the highs.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.15 03:50:00 - [54] Originally by: Socrates Nacht The lowest tier blasters outdamage the highest tier autocannons by a goody amount. Also, wait for the blaster purists to barge in and scream about Electrons not being true blasters. If I had fitting problems on the myrm, I'd probably just fit Light Neutrons in the highs. Yea, but at least there will be a reason[tracking bonus, damage bonus, no cap use] to fit the autocannons over the blasters in those situations. With amarr there is no reason, once you downfit you gain damage, save fitting and cap use no matter what you do. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers	Posted - 2007.02.15 03:53:00 - [55] Originally by: Goumindong But the autocannons let you dedicate your entire low slots to damage. 425 ACs will run about 12% less damage than Electron Blasters. They will track worse and have a lot better range. If you are having capacitor issues or just want to dedicate your entire cap to tank, run the ACs. If you arent having capacitor issues and want to do a bit more damage, fit Blasters. It should also be noted that ACs, since they fire explosive ammo will give your heavy drone myrm a way to diversify damage a bit. Using a heavy drone myrmidon would suggest to me that you want to do as much dps as possible and kill the target as fast as possible. IMO don't use AC's then, use blasters. Unbonused AC's allways have poor damage. The Rate of fire bonus on practically every minmatar ship larger then a frigate is there for a reason... To make projectile turrets usefull. Crystal-Slave, that way? Potential solution to the current Recon cloak and cyno bug
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.15 03:57:00 - [56] Originally by: Reatu Krentor Originally by: Goumindong But the autocannons let you dedicate your entire low slots to damage. 425 ACs will run about 12% less damage than Electron Blasters. They will track worse and have a lot better range. If you are having capacitor issues or just want to dedicate your entire cap to tank, run the ACs. If you arent having capacitor issues and want to do a bit more damage, fit Blasters. It should also be noted that ACs, since they fire explosive ammo will give your heavy drone myrm a way to diversify damage a bit. Using a heavy drone myrmidon would suggest to me that you want to do as much dps as possible and kill the target as fast as possible. IMO don't use AC's then, use blasters. Unbonused AC's allways have poor damage. The Rate of fire bonus on practically every minmatar ship larger then a frigate is there for a reason... To make projectile turrets usefull. ACs do not do bad DPS, in fact, its quite good DPS. Especialy when considering that no other guns do explosive damage or are able to change to thermal damage against shiels. If you want a stronger tank and dont want to worry about having to have cap to shoot your guns, you take the ACs. Otherwise you take the blasters. Its that simple. Having heavy drones has nothing to do with it, you will be so close that it wont matter due to scoop and release. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers	Posted - 2007.02.15 04:20:00 - [57] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Reatu Krentor Originally by: Goumindong But the autocannons let you dedicate your entire low slots to damage. 425 ACs will run about 12% less damage than Electron Blasters. They will track worse and have a lot better range. If you are having capacitor issues or just want to dedicate your entire cap to tank, run the ACs. If you arent having capacitor issues and want to do a bit more damage, fit Blasters. It should also be noted that ACs, since they fire explosive ammo will give your heavy drone myrm a way to diversify damage a bit. Using a heavy drone myrmidon would suggest to me that you want to do as much dps as possible and kill the target as fast as possible. IMO don't use AC's then, use blasters. Unbonused AC's allways have poor damage. The Rate of fire bonus on practically every minmatar ship larger then a frigate is there for a reason... To make projectile turrets usefull. ACs do not do bad DPS, in fact, its quite good DPS. Especialy when considering that no other guns do explosive damage or are able to change to thermal damage against shiels. If you want a stronger tank and dont want to worry about having to have cap to shoot your guns, you take the ACs. Otherwise you take the blasters. Its that simple. Having heavy drones has nothing to do with it, you will be so close that it wont matter due to scoop and release. I checked and 425mm AC's on a myrmidon will allways be outdamaged by the blasters(any of them, though I'll admit the difference is marginal when comparing to heavy electrons, but then consider the amount of grid the heavy electrons save) when firing against an armor tank(on a T1 ship with 3 T2 hardeners or 2 eanm+dcu). The only reason I can see to use heavy drones on a myrmidon is to have the most dps possible. And why would you want to have as much dps as possible? To kill your target as fast as possible before backup arrives or before you run out of cap charges. So in that case blasters are superior. That said, the only reason to use AC's on a myrmidon is to have the no cap use. Crystal-Slave, that way? Potential solution to the current Recon cloak and cyno bug
Mighty Baz HUSARIA	Posted - 2007.02.15 08:13:00 - [58] last time I used a/c 425 scout in my myrmidon. I tell you one, dont do that. Rof 4,5 dmg modyfier 5,2 ammo fusion nothing special without special moduls (giro) ______________________________________________ Husaria recruits based on legendary XVI century Polish winged cavalry

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