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Rewriting the history books

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Angela Toren Amarr Toren Shipyards	Posted - 2007.02.12 13:34:00 - [1] What does the Phoenix Alliance, Fountain Alliance, Ascendent Frontier all have in common? ..They all deserve more credit than they have been given. Makes you think doesn't it? Especially the latter going down in only a couple of months whilst Phoenix took astonishly well over half a year which sounds about right. Just how much credit can actually be taken for the removal of these alliances from the game? The Phoenix Alliance and Fountain Alliance have been consigned to Eve's history books as having been defeated by BOB (Evolution & co) but hand on heart can any BOB pilot claim they were as easy to defeat as ASCN, especially in the capital age? Cyvok in one of his farewell threads commented on BOB seemingly being online 24h and fully stocked up with ships etc. Whilst that is not impossible, everyone knows if you can outlast your opponent in terms of resources you can win almost any war. I'm sure many other 0.0 alliances will not hold ASCN's defeat nor the loss of thier titan against them in light of what they know now. BOB are no strangers to controversy, just ask former Fountain Alliance fleet commanders about the extra terrestial sightings of UFO's spying on thier fleets during thier war. Understandably this must be fustrating for a BOB pilot point of view, lots of hard work written off especially for the oridinary grunts - the real heros of the alliance who fight the wars day in day out non-stop whilst others swing egos on the forums. 99% of Bob pilots i'm sure were in the dark and need not be held accountable for the mistakes or actions of their leaders. Unfortunately Bob will not go down in history as the greatest alliance ever simply due to the fact that truth of its achievements are now in question and its reputation is now irreparably soiled. How far the soiling goes back is anyones guess which is why fallen alliances must be credited for thier efforts and not just looked at as BOB kills. Today, some would seek to fight Bob now because defeating them at this particular point in time would be the greatest prize in the game, especially after all the evidence of Bob recieving divine intervention and manna from heaven. But then there are some that sadly would rather steer clear of a confrontation with Bob and eye them with great mistrust. This is something that can only be healed by time, and for the sake of the alliance warfare we should all move on. PA was not exactly the don of thier day but they were not afraid of BOB nor would they roll over and die without expending every last man. Fountain although lavishly wealthy and decadent refused to give up thier region without a serious fight either. Respect where respect is due. These fallen alliances to BOB need to be credited for their efforts, and BOB individual pilots need to be credited for thier efforts not the entire alliance entity.
Masochistic Cannibal Amarr 3M Incorporated	Posted - 2007.02.12 13:35:00 - [2] Edited by: Masochistic Cannibal on 12/02/2007 13:33:11 Please shut up, I hate BoB as much as the next guy but these posts are getting retarded. [Edit] Didn't read it fully, I thought you where making a omg BoB hax'ored vixtories!!11 thread. My bad Sorry. Cannibal I eat babies ! [Hauling services available~ Contact ingame]
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.02.12 13:41:00 - [3] Edited by: welsh wizard on 12/02/2007 13:38:08 edit: nm Good post op.
Edde Bebbi Amarr The Griffin	Posted - 2007.02.12 13:45:00 - [4] Edited by: Edde Bebbi on 12/02/2007 13:42:57 This has got to be a joke. Seriously, claiming BoB are anything less than the best PvP outfit in the game is just dellusion. ASCN and PA and all the rest lost fair and square. Devs joined BoB BECAUSE they were so good.
Elendar Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.02.12 13:47:00 - [5] I'd agree, the way bob talk of alliances that have fallen to them makes it seem like anyone who has dared fight back in the past where utter scum and bob where saints for removing them Originally by: ph33rf4ct0ry Xirt must be one of the GREAT leaders in eve to keep you guys shooting shuttles in hophib
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.02.12 13:48:00 - [6] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 12/02/2007 13:46:16 This is getting ridiculous and retarded. How about instead of rewriting history on the forums you go fight them in-game? -[23] Member- EVE-Trance Radio! (DSTrance channel ingame)
Qual Gallente Cornexant Research	Posted - 2007.02.12 14:04:00 - [7] Dude! FA had thier fair share of vols and devs in thier circles. (As is the case for ALL major alliances. Which is what makes this whole discussion silly in the first place. But thats another thread...) I was there. I know. FA was killed due to loosing the core of there PvP'ers to BoB. Xanadu and BIG had one of the largest industrial machines out there, but with noone to defend it, they where dead long before BoB attacked. The same people who made FA a PvP powerhouse in the start was the same people who killed the FA under the BoB tag. "The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.02.12 14:05:00 - [8] Edited by: welsh wizard on 12/02/2007 14:01:57
DARKKK	Posted - 2007.02.12 14:14:00 - [9] Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 12/02/2007 14:01:57 C'mon post already. As far as PA is concerned, latest reincarnation was killed by 5./goons/Kaos/fe/... Please can you show concrete proof, they might be very useful now, when cards changed hands.
Goberth Ludwig The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2007.02.12 14:14:00 - [10] Yawn... ibtl - Gob
Stamm Amarr Three Holdings Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.02.12 14:18:00 - [11] There's better pure PvP organisations out there than BoB. There's better 0.0 pioneers and tamers than BoB. There's better industrialists than BoB. There's better complex runners than BoB. But no entity has ever come close to what BoB has achieved with balance. We seem to focus constantly on BoBs military might, but that is not the only reason they are where they are today. Their logistics, their organisation, their leadership and their industrial capacity makes them the most effective "active in all aspects" Alliance out there. Having said that, don't put me down as a BoB fan. They're arrogant, they love waving their epeens, they use tactics which are questionable (but legal). I don't like them on an alliance level, but credit where credit is due. I do, however, note that there are many other entities which are worthy of almost equal praise. Lotka Volterra, why are they not getting the credit for the massive achievements they have made in game? Dusk and Dawn are often ridiculed, but what they have achieved in the north is nothing short of massive progress. ASCN of course had fatal flaws, but they achieved massive industrialisation, pioneering what is now accepted as a benchmark for 0.0 life. Even if someone else drops more outposts than them, builds more capitals, stocks the market better, ASCN did it first, they did it when it was harder to do. Goonswarm... from humble beginnings as a massive blob of frigates in Syndicate suffering massive losses at every engagement, having the entire brunt of BoB at them in the early stages of their alliance, being beat on by every alliance around have now become a force which really strikes fear into people. But I guess that there are no prizes for second place. Galaxian Recruitment Info
Bellon Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.02.12 14:21:00 - [12] Originally by: Stamm There's better pure PvP organisations out there than BoB. There's better 0.0 pioneers and tamers than BoB. There's better industrialists than BoB. There's better complex runners than BoB. But no entity has ever come close to what BoB has achieved with balance. We seem to focus constantly on BoBs military might, but that is not the only reason they are where they are today. Their logistics, their organisation, their leadership and their industrial capacity makes them the most effective "active in all aspects" Alliance out there. Having said that, don't put me down as a BoB fan. They're arrogant, they love waving their epeens, they use tactics which are questionable (but legal). I don't like them on an alliance level, but credit where credit is due. I do, however, note that there are many other entities which are worthy of almost equal praise. Lotka Volterra, why are they not getting the credit for the massive achievements they have made in game? Dusk and Dawn are often ridiculed, but what they have achieved in the north is nothing short of massive progress. ASCN of course had fatal flaws, but they achieved massive industrialisation, pioneering what is now accepted as a benchmark for 0.0 life. Even if someone else drops more outposts than them, builds more capitals, stocks the market better, ASCN did it first, they did it when it was harder to do. Goonswarm... from humble beginnings as a massive blob of frigates in Syndicate suffering massive losses at every engagement, having the entire brunt of BoB at them in the early stages of their alliance, being beat on by every alliance around have now become a force which really strikes fear into people. But I guess that there are no prizes for second place. I love you.
Rail Duke SniggWaffe Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.02.12 15:36:00 - [13] Originally by: Stamm There's better pure PvP organisations out there than BoB. There's better 0.0 pioneers and tamers than BoB. There's better industrialists than BoB. There's better complex runners than BoB. But no entity has ever come close to what BoB has achieved with balance. We seem to focus constantly on BoBs military might, but that is not the only reason they are where they are today. Their logistics, their organisation, their leadership and their industrial capacity makes them the most effective "active in all aspects" Alliance out there. Having said that, don't put me down as a BoB fan. They're arrogant, they love waving their epeens, they use tactics which are questionable (but legal). I don't like them on an alliance level, but credit where credit is due. I do, however, note that there are many other entities which are worthy of almost equal praise. Lotka Volterra, why are they not getting the credit for the massive achievements they have made in game? Dusk and Dawn are often ridiculed, but what they have achieved in the north is nothing short of massive progress. ASCN of course had fatal flaws, but they achieved massive industrialisation, pioneering what is now accepted as a benchmark for 0.0 life. Even if someone else drops more outposts than them, builds more capitals, stocks the market better, ASCN did it first, they did it when it was harder to do. Goonswarm... from humble beginnings as a massive blob of frigates in Syndicate suffering massive losses at every engagement, having the entire brunt of BoB at them in the early stages of their alliance, being beat on by every alliance around have now become a force which really strikes fear into people. But I guess that there are no prizes for second place. QFT ------------- All the above is my view alone and not of my corps or alliance
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.02.12 15:39:00 - [14] Originally by: Stamm There's better pure PvP organisations out there than BoB. There's better 0.0 pioneers and tamers than BoB. There's better industrialists than BoB. There's better complex runners than BoB. But no entity has ever come close to what BoB has achieved with balance. We seem to focus constantly on BoBs military might, but that is not the only reason they are where they are today. Their logistics, their organisation, their leadership and their industrial capacity makes them the most effective "active in all aspects" Alliance out there. Having said that, don't put me down as a BoB fan. They're arrogant, they love waving their epeens, they use tactics which are questionable (but legal). I don't like them on an alliance level, but credit where credit is due. I do, however, note that there are many other entities which are worthy of almost equal praise. Lotka Volterra, why are they not getting the credit for the massive achievements they have made in game? Dusk and Dawn are often ridiculed, but what they have achieved in the north is nothing short of massive progress. ASCN of course had fatal flaws, but they achieved massive industrialisation, pioneering what is now accepted as a benchmark for 0.0 life. Even if someone else drops more outposts than them, builds more capitals, stocks the market better, ASCN did it first, they did it when it was harder to do. Goonswarm... from humble beginnings as a massive blob of frigates in Syndicate suffering massive losses at every engagement, having the entire brunt of BoB at them in the early stages of their alliance, being beat on by every alliance around have now become a force which really strikes fear into people. But I guess that there are no prizes for second place. Great post, thread over. -[23] Member- EVE-Trance Radio! (DSTrance channel ingame)
Iva Soreass FireStar Inc Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.02.12 15:44:00 - [15] /yawn ----------------------------------------------- "Your momma is so fat, BoB thought she was a region and took her!"
Mattduk Gallente Universal Army	Posted - 2007.02.12 15:46:00 - [16] Originally by: Qual Dude! FA had thier fair share of vols and devs in thier circles. (As is the case for ALL major alliances. Which is what makes this whole discussion silly in the first place. But thats another thread...) I was there. I know. Name them.
JINX HSC North Star Networks Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.02.12 15:48:00 - [17] The fact that you have no clue what so ever what you are talking about Angela hits an old PA leader like my self.. - KLADDKAKA -
Mattduk Gallente Universal Army	Posted - 2007.02.12 15:48:00 - [18] Originally by: Stamm But no entity has ever come close to what BoB has achieved with balance. We seem to focus constantly on BoBs military might, but that is not the only reason they are where they are today. Their logistics, their organisation, their leadership and their industrial capacity makes them the most effective "active in all aspects" Alliance out there. Don't forget their devs
Onchas Erivvia The Andromeda Directorate SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.12 15:50:00 - [19] Good post Stamm. I hope people read it and actually think about what you've said. What intrigues me watching Goon is how good they seem to be at the logistical side of the game. I've gotten a chance with the war to stick my nose under the tent, and it's quite impressive what I've seen so far. One can sit there and intellectually think through that to provide that made people a steady supply of ships, weapons, and ammo is an incredible feat, but add in supplying capital ships and POSes and you have a force. BoB was right to identify them as a threat early on. Whatever you think about the Goonies, (and I think they're awesome), it's just lucky for the game that the Goonies were able to survive and can now put their organization to work with their numbers and growing skills -- this game needs more alliances that can put everything together and be successful to avoid fractioning into a few super alliances that control all of space. Hopefully other Alliances are going to take the hint and start working at putting everything together. My expectation is we are, as I'm reading a lot fewer Carebear vs. PVP threads and various rimshots in this forum (the General Discussion forum still gets far too many), that this is starting to sink in to even the thickest of skulls. I, personally, think it's all thanks to capital ships and sovereignty rules (and the POS logistics that goes into it). ------------------------------------------ 'Teh Onchinator' Personal Assistant to MrsPitman
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.02.12 15:54:00 - [20] Originally by: Qual Dude! FA had thier fair share of vols and devs in thier circles. (As is the case for ALL major alliances. Which is what makes this whole discussion silly in the first place. But thats another thread...) I was there. I know. FA was killed due to loosing the core of there PvP'ers to BoB. Xanadu and BIG had one of the largest industrial machines out there, but with noone to defend it, they where dead long before BoB attacked. The same people who made FA a PvP powerhouse in the start was the same people who killed the FA under the BoB tag. That certainly is partially right. Much of FA's PVP power had been drained to BoB/ATUK and elsewhere before BoB attacked. Much of FA's rank and file was drained to lvl4 agents missions. Add in those factors (and 5-6 months of war before BoB themselves showed up) and you got a fairly predictable result. You are also right about FA having many vols. Of course, many of those "FA vols" were "old school FA" vols and are now "BoB vols". The Enemy's Gate is Down
Vasili Z Beasts of Burden YouWhat	Posted - 2007.02.12 16:05:00 - [21] I don't even read the main post's anymore, I skim through them first and check to see this magic word: BoB, and or BoD, the moment I see these I instantly get angry, because I know, someone, somewhere, thought they accomplished something. ------- I smoke pot, because I'm cool.
Luthien Firefoot Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.02.12 16:53:00 - [22] Originally by: Edde Bebbi Edited by: Edde Bebbi on 12/02/2007 13:42:57 This has got to be a joke. Seriously, claiming BoB are anything less than the best PvP outfit in the game is just dellusion. ASCN and PA and all the rest lost fair and square. Devs joined BoB BECAUSE they were so good. That's the most retarded thing I have ever read, and the worst thing about it is, it's probably true. Yes I guess devs need to have game experience, do they have to join bob, no, it would make a lot more bloody sense to join a smaller alliance where your 'gameplay as an insider' can have much less impact on the universe. ffs ccp , it took you this long to perhaps still not realise that
Qual Gallente Cornexant Research	Posted - 2007.02.12 20:34:00 - [23] Originally by: Mattduk Name them. I have no reason to. They are people who I still have great respect for. Why would I go create trubble by putting names on them? Wouldn't do anyone any good. Putting names on vols and devs ingame is low and stupid. "The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf
Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company	Posted - 2007.02.12 20:40:00 - [24] Originally by: Stamm There's better pure PvP organisations out there than BoB. There's better 0.0 pioneers and tamers than BoB. There's better industrialists than BoB. There's better complex runners than BoB. But no entity has ever come close to what BoB has achieved with balance. We seem to focus constantly on BoBs military might, but that is not the only reason they are where they are today. Their logistics, their organisation, their leadership and their industrial capacity makes them the most effective "active in all aspects" Alliance out there. Having said that, don't put me down as a BoB fan. They're arrogant, they love waving their epeens, they use tactics which are questionable (but legal). I don't like them on an alliance level, but credit where credit is due. I do, however, note that there are many other entities which are worthy of almost equal praise. Lotka Volterra, why are they not getting the credit for the massive achievements they have made in game? Dusk and Dawn are often ridiculed, but what they have achieved in the north is nothing short of massive progress. ASCN of course had fatal flaws, but they achieved massive industrialisation, pioneering what is now accepted as a benchmark for 0.0 life. Even if someone else drops more outposts than them, builds more capitals, stocks the market better, ASCN did it first, they did it when it was harder to do. Goonswarm... from humble beginnings as a massive blob of frigates in Syndicate suffering massive losses at every engagement, having the entire brunt of BoB at them in the early stages of their alliance, being beat on by every alliance around have now become a force which really strikes fear into people. But I guess that there are no prizes for second place. STICKY THIS SOMEWHERE! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD! __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-
Swift Wind 6rasshopper Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.12 21:03:00 - [25] Originally by: Qual Originally by: Mattduk Name them. I have no reason to. They are people who I still have great respect for. Why would I go create trubble by putting names on them? Wouldn't do anyone any good. Putting names on vols and devs ingame is low and stupid. and there lies the problem. You KNOW certian players are devs. But it is ok for you to know and not the community? Why? Is that not a total violation oof the rules? Is it not a total violation of the trust us players have that in fact we are on an even ground? If you KNEW you had devs, and vols to lean on then you also are cheating, right? Quote: Fix drones too. YouÆve replaced the petulant two-year old with an emo-teen.
Qual Gallente Cornexant Research	Posted - 2007.02.12 21:31:00 - [26] Originally by: Swift Wind and there lies the problem. You KNOW certian players are devs. But it is ok for you to know and not the community? Why? Is that not a total violation oof the rules? Is it not a total violation of the trust us players have that in fact we are on an even ground? If you KNEW you had devs, and vols to lean on then you also are cheating, right? Sorry. I cant see your logic at all. We all know there are about 300 devs/vols playing out there under cover. Just be course I know who one or two of them are, dont give me an edge unless they break the rules. If I knew someone was a dev/vol, and I saw that player break the rules, then I would have a moral problem if I did not speak up. But besides that there is no problem in it. EVE would die if the devs/vols couldnt play the game with us. Simple fact. "The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf
Swift Wind 6rasshopper Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.12 21:42:00 - [27] Originally by: Qual Originally by: Swift Wind and there lies the problem. You KNOW certian players are devs. But it is ok for you to know and not the community? Why? Is that not a total violation oof the rules? Is it not a total violation of the trust us players have that in fact we are on an even ground? If you KNEW you had devs, and vols to lean on then you also are cheating, right? Sorry. I cant see your logic at all. We all know there are about 300 devs/vols playing out there under cover. Just be course I know who one or two of them are, dont give me an edge unless they break the rules. You KNOWING that they are devs is against the rules right? Quote: If I knew someone was a dev/vol, again that is against the rules, but go on... Quote: and I saw that player break the rules, then I would have a moral problem if I did not speak up. But besides that there is no problem in it. EVE would die if the devs/vols couldnt play the game with us. Simple fact. They can play, AS LONG AS NONE KNOW THERE DEVS. What part of that confuses you? If you know they are a dev, then CCP demands that charter be deleted. Right? Or are you a special exemption to that rule? Quote: Fix drones too. YouÆve replaced the petulant two-year old with an emo-teen.
Qual Gallente Cornexant Research	Posted - 2007.02.12 22:16:00 - [28] Originally by: Swift Wind Rant You obviously havent played alongside a vol/dev. Doesnt work like: "Oh, hi, btw, im a vol." Its somthing you slowly just figure out when playing with them over a long period of time. They are very professional these people. They dont give it away. Yet some day you and some corp friends jokes about it beeing so, and you all realise you are thinking the same thing. Akward silence. Then non of you goes there again. And you certainly dont try to expose them. They are your friends for crying it out loud. Sometimes you end up getting confirmation in some way or another other times you never really get to know. Either way I dont give a damn, as long as they play the game like the rest of us... "The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf
Swift Wind 6rasshopper Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.12 22:23:00 - [29] Originally by: Qual Originally by: Swift Wind Rant You obviously havent played alongside a vol/dev. Doesnt work like: "Oh, hi, btw, im a vol." Its somthing you slowly just figure out when playing with them over a long period of time. They are very professional these people. They dont give it away. Yet some day you and some corp friends jokes about it beeing so, and you all realise you are thinking the same thing. Akward silence. Then non of you goes there again. And you certainly dont try to expose them. They are your friends for crying it out loud. Sometimes you end up getting confirmation in some way or another other times you never really get to know. Either way I dont give a damn, as long as they play the game like the rest of us... The point is, no matter how you found out, you found out. That dev(s) should have 'moved on' if he/she has an inkling that your on to him/her. Those are the rules, period. Your being able to announce, a dev confirmation, then play it off as 'oh i dont want to hurt my friend' is cheating, period. No matter how you want to play it off. If your not fond of CCPs rules you should petition it, or quit. However, your knowing devs (by your own admission) in game benifits you, so you will do nothing about it, rules or no rules. And you wonder why players feel cheated. Quote: Fix drones too. YouÆve replaced the petulant two-year old with an emo-teen.
Qual Gallente Cornexant Research	Posted - 2007.02.12 22:49:00 - [30] I disagree. Let it stand at that. I find your view to square and cold and with no regard for the fact that this is a game with the main function as entertainment. You make it sound like real world law. We are simply not in the same mindset. "The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf

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