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Mr Reeth
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Posted - 2007.02.12 17:51:00 -
[1]
With the recent actions of the Republic against its more rebellious elements their has been a lot of talk about who is right and who is wrong. Many in the empire are glad that the Republic is stepping up to its responsibilities and dealing with those that threaten the relative peace we now enjoy.
At the same time the Republic and its loyalists are begging the rebels to turn their attention away from those that betrayed them. They fear that a divided Republic will be easy pickings for an imagined Amarrian boogeyman. But this is far from the case. Without an emperor in the throne there will be no massive invasion.
So, who do we as good Amarrian citizens support in this? It is my opinion that the terrorists are on the side of right. The Republic is a Gallente designed tool of oppression. It does not, can not, and was never meant to serve the Matari people. It was meant to serve the only Gallente elite. The Federation is a parasite living off the blood of the Republic citizen. The Republic has provided, trade, defense, cheap labor, and an unlimited supply new talent for the sleazier elements of the holoreel industry. They stir up hatred of the Amarrians to keep the people from noticing the failings of their own government. The ruling elite of the Republic grow fat off the scraps of the Gallente table while the people live in poverty.
I have heard a call for the head of the Prime Minister. But what good will her death do if you need to take another head in a couple of years. ItĘs time to redesign your government from the ground up.
These have been my own opinions and not those of anyone else.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar
Gradient
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.12 18:22:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 12/02/2007 18:21:44
If there ever was a more blatant attempt from an Amarr to cause discord among our people, I do not know what it was.
You should understand this: in its heart of hearts the Republis is not about its bureaucracy, it is about a union of our four great tribes, a union more and greater than anything before it, and a cause of fear and awe for ever slaver who thinks they can crush us by dividing us.
We might disagree with our current leaders, we might disagree with how and why they were chosen, we might disagree about when and how and with whom to replace them, we might disagree with their politics - but the union still stands, and it will stand, until the Amarr Empire falls.
--
Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
Mr Reeth
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Posted - 2007.02.12 18:39:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 12/02/2007 18:27:45
If there ever was a more blatant attempt from an Amarr to cause discord among our people, I do not know what it was.
You should understand this: in its heart of hearts the Republis is not about its bureaucracy, it is about a union of our four great tribes, a union more and greater than anything before it, and a cause of fear and awe for ever slaver who thinks they can crush us by dividing us.
We might disagree with our current leaders, we might disagree with how and why they were chosen, we might disagree about when and how and with whom to replace them, we might disagree with the politics - but the union still stands, and it will stand, until the Amarr Empire falls.
Firstly madam I am not so deluded into thinking my words will inspire anything within either side of this argument. Secondly, and forgive my bluntness, what you said was nothing but nationalist rhetorical nonsense. You did not address a single issue I had raised. This lack of addressing issues is perhaps the primary reason for the RepublicĘs failings.
And what was that bit about the Empire falling? Are you saying that the destruction of the Empire is a Republic goal? Is it your goal?
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Patamon
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Posted - 2007.02.12 18:43:00 -
[4]
Listening to an Amarr discuss a stable government is like asking advice of a prostitue about how to have a successful monogamous relationship. If you look tha Amarr that do speak to this subject have been all over the place with which side is right, they have one agenda, destablizing the Republic.
Brothers and Sisters I urge you to consider the worthlessness of their words and ignore them. This is a matter for our people and they have no place in it.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar
Gradient
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.12 18:44:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 12/02/2007 18:41:58
I have zero interest in addressing the issues of a good citizen of the Amarr Empire, like I keep on hoping (without any real reason for that) that they have no interest in addressing mine.
Quote:
And what was that bit about the Empire falling? Are you saying that the destruction of the Empire is a Republic goal? Is it your goal?
Personally, as far as I am concerned, the Rebellion never ended. I still hope we can finish it with as little bloodshed as possible, via diplomatic means, or via the Empire collapsing in its internal disputes and the sheer impossibility of its religion - but make no mistake, it is not over.
--
Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
Mr Reeth
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Posted - 2007.02.12 19:16:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Patamon
Listening to an Amarr discuss a stable government is like asking advice of a prostitue about how to have a successful monogamous relationship. If you look tha Amarr that do speak to this subject have been all over the place with which side is right, they have one agenda, destablizing the Republic.
Brothers and Sisters I urge you to consider the worthlessness of their words and ignore them. This is a matter for our people and they have no place in it.
Yes, except the Amarrian government is the oldest and most stable government in the galaxy. And your prostitute simile was justą lovely.
And we all have a place in the affairs of the Republic. While we have no direct say in the goings on; it impacts everyone.
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Mr Reeth
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Posted - 2007.02.12 19:17:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 12/02/2007 18:41:58
I have zero interest in addressing the issues of a good citizen of the Amarr Empire, like I keep on hoping (without any real reason for that) that they have no interest in addressing mine.
Quote:
And what was that bit about the Empire falling? Are you saying that the destruction of the Empire is a Republic goal? Is it your goal?
Personally, as far as I am concerned, the Rebellion never ended. I still hope we can finish it with as little bloodshed as possible, via diplomatic means, or via the Empire collapsing in its internal disputes and the sheer impossibility of its religion - but make no mistake, it is not over.
Your statements are contradictory. You say you want as little bloodshed as possible and a diplomatic solution but in one breath you devalue my opinion, spit venom on my faith and threaten my people. Have you ever even tried being civil? I believe it is a key part of the diplomatic process.
Now can you honestly say that the Republic as an institutional structure is serving the needs of the people? Now keep in mind I am not talking about those who serve the Republic just now. I am asking about the governmental system. Would an elected tribal council not be more befitting the needs of the Matari people? While fairly united the Matari do seem to continue to divide along tribal lines. A council would ensure a lack of disenfranchisement of the smaller tribes. But itĘs just a thought.
And what makes anyone think all Amarrians want to destabilize the Republic? If anything we benefit from a well ordered neighbor.
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Dominus1
Gallente
Trojan Ink
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Posted - 2007.02.12 19:19:00 -
[8]
While the Federation may had a hand in the initial creation of the Minmatar Republic, it is more than obvious now that Minmatar can certainly stand on their own.
Continuous belittlement from the Amarr Empire only proves (even after more than a century) that they have a hard time dealing with change. As result we are seeing yet another example of stagnation personified. After all they are the ones who has an Emperor every 500 years. The Federation and Republic embrace change every couple of years. New blood provides every one of us with new opportunities to grow and develop.
And now the Republic is now at the crossroads. But instead of resulting to civil war, they have decided (as a whole race), to begin proceedings to change their Prime Minster.
Even though I am new on the scene, I applaud their efforts to remain united through this difficult.
Dominus
Causing trouble as best I can! |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar
Gradient
Namtz'aar k'in
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 19:22:00 -
[9]
I have no intention to start justifying the Republic to an Amarr. Such discussions are between Matari and none of your concern.
--
Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
Ostos Marek
House of Marek
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Posted - 2007.02.12 19:29:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Mr Reeth
Yes, except the Amarrian government is the oldest and most stable government in the galaxy. And your prostitute simile was justą lovely.
I don't agree with Mr. Reeth calling you a prostitute. I will agree that we are the oldest and most stable government.
I also agree that we all benefit from stability and peace. The current "peace" between the empires has brought about a new age of trade, commerce and industry as of late. For that we all benefit. I use the term "peace" loosley because this seems to not be a lasting resolution to end conflict, and all sides have shown hostility at one time or another since this "peace".
I do not agree that the Gallente are causing the instability in the Republic. They may have a small part, but it is not them. It is disagreements within the organizations of the Republic, the tribes, and their leaders. Putting religion aside for a moment, if the Republic wanted to succeed, they would need to stop bickering and fighting eachother. Only unified does a government and it's people stand.
Brining religion back into the matter, I say that one can not depend on someone that doesn't believe in something more important than this life, this world. For my lost Minmatar brothers and sisters to leave this Age of Darkness that is within the Republic, you must embrace God and His will.
We Ammatars, your brothers and sisters, shall welcome you to us, just as the Amarr welcomed us willingly. Come join us in the light, in stability, faith, and a bright future.
Popsickle:I start to lose faith.Ostos:Your faith in your Republic is melting away, Popsikle. |
Mr Reeth
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Posted - 2007.02.12 19:30:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
I have no intention to start justifying the Republic to an Amarr. Such discussions are between Matari and none of your concern.
Okay then continue to spit racist venom at someone just trying to have a conversation. Then later you can go pay some more lip service to your hope for a diplomatic solution. Yes clearly I am the villain of this piece. And I take it the answer to my question about you ever being civil was a no?
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Mr Reeth
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Posted - 2007.02.12 19:37:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Ostos Marek
Originally by: Mr Reeth
Yes, except the Amarrian government is the oldest and most stable government in the galaxy. And your prostitute simile was justą lovely.
I don't agree with Mr. Reeth calling you a prostitute. I will agree that we are the oldest and most stable government.
I also agree that we all benefit from stability and peace. The current "peace" between the empires has brought about a new age of trade, commerce and industry as of late. For that we all benefit. I use the term "peace" loosley because this seems to not be a lasting resolution to end conflict, and all sides have shown hostility at one time or another since this "peace".
I do not agree that the Gallente are causing the instability in the Republic. They may have a small part, but it is not them. It is disagreements within the organizations of the Republic, the tribes, and their leaders. Putting religion aside for a moment, if the Republic wanted to succeed, they would need to stop bickering and fighting eachother. Only unified does a government and it's people stand.
Finally, another man of reason arrives. Though if you read again what I had written I did not call him a prostitute.
And while I agree the Gallente are not directly responsible for the problems facing the government I hold firm to my belief that they had planted seeds that cannot bear anything but bad fruit for the honorable Matari people.
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Ostos Marek
House of Marek
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Posted - 2007.02.12 19:40:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Ostos Marek on 12/02/2007 19:37:26
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
I have no intention to start justifying the Republic to an Amarr. Such discussions are between Matari and none of your concern.
Elsebeth, I am San Matari, True Matari, an Ammatar. I wish to talk of peace, both spiritually and physically for all within the Republic. I am not Amarr, though I serve the Empire and the Ammatar Mandate.
Discussions on the Republic, the Empire, and the state of things can be accomplished in a more tactful manner I'm sure you are not used to from the Empire's side of the "line".
*bows*
Although you may hate me, us, and the Empire, I assure you I wish the best for you and our people. What each of us considers "the best for our people" is in disagreement. I leave my communications channels open for discussion if there is ever a need.
Popsickle:I start to lose faith.Ostos:Your faith in your Republic is melting away, Popsikle. |
Doc Extropy
Gallente
Freelance Unincorporated
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.12 20:02:00 -
[14]
Believe me, Ammatar, one day I'll get you in front of my guns and then you will pay dearly for what you are.
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Dominus1
Gallente
Trojan Ink
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Posted - 2007.02.12 20:07:00 -
[15]
And while I agree the Gallente are not directly responsible for the problems facing the government I hold firm to my belief that they had planted seeds that cannot bear anything but bad fruit for the honorable Matari people.
As far as I am concerned the Republic will bounce back from scandal. They have taken the steps to correct it.
What the Federation offered to them was a system of government that has worked for us for centuries. We planted the seeds of good government based upon the freedoms we Gallente take for granted.
They took those seeds, sowed them, let it take root and tended the crop into their vision. Even with the best of care and maintenance, they still have to root out the weeds and vermin.
I think we are witnessing something that will prove to be enlightening for us all.
Dominus
Causing trouble as best I can! |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar
Gradient
Namtz'aar k'in
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 20:27:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Ostos Marek
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
I have no intention to start justifying the Republic to an Amarr. Such discussions are between Matari and none of your concern.
Elsebeth, I am San Matari, True Matari, an Ammatar. I wish to talk of peace, both spiritually and physically for all within the Republic.
Talk, and I will listen, traitor.
--
Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient now. |
Ostos Marek
House of Marek
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Posted - 2007.02.12 20:40:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Doc Extropy
Believe me, Ammatar, one day I'll get you in front of my guns and then you will pay dearly for what you are.
I shall pay for being born Ammatar? For it was not I who left the Minmatar to their misguided and unenlightened choice to deny God the Creator. Remember that when the Ammatar split away from the misguided Minmatar was well before MY birth. I was born an Ammatar, so am I rightly supposed to be put to your lasers?
How inspiring the words from your mouth are. Or is it that I shall pay for what I have done to you? Or maybe is it that I am a slaver and practice that legally within the Ammatar Mandate and the Amarr Empire. Or is it that I am just a citizen of the Empire and the Mandate?
You may argue of those born in slavery didn't have a choice. I argue that any slave that bears children in my facilities has their child raised Ammatar or as a loyal employee, by the guidance of the Temple of the Holy Prophet. Never do slave's children become slaves unless they lose their way.
I have noted your quick judgement and am not afraid. I shall not pay as dearly as you will when your tainted soul meets God, and then Oblivion.
Popsickle:I start to lose faith.Ostos:Your faith in your Republic is melting away, Popsikle. |
Agustus Caesar
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.02.12 20:51:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Mr Reeth
And what was that bit about the Empire falling? Are you saying that the destruction of the Empire is a Republic goal? Is it your goal?
The primary reason the Republic exists is to protect the Matari people from Imperial slave raids and reconquest by the Amarrian Empire; that is all. If the Empire forsakes the slave trade and follows up on the progressive policies of your previous Emperor then there is absolutely no need for any hostilities between our peoples. The Republic is purely defensive in nature, if you truely have no plans on invading then you don't have anything to fear from us (other than smashing trespassing fleets).
Quote:
Now can you honestly say that the Republic as an institutional structure is serving the needs of the people?
Has the Empire successfully invaded the Republic and enslaved it's citizens? If not then the Republic is fufilling it's duties.
Quote:
And what makes anyone think all Amarrians want to destabilize the Republic? If anything we benefit from a well ordered neighbor.
Why would the Empire want to destabalize a government that fought a bloody revolution for independence from it? Honestly I hope I don't have to answer that for you. It's hardly a secret that many hardliners in the military and theocracy want to reconquer the Minmatar, thus far what has held them back is the fact that the united tribes would cripple their military to the point that even a victory would leave the Amarrian military dangerously weakened. If the tribes were to nolonger be united as one, then there's would hadrly be a reason NOT to invade (in their eyes anyway).
-Caesar
----------------------------- |
Ostos Marek
House of Marek
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Posted - 2007.02.12 20:58:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Agustus Caesar
If the tribes were to nolonger be united as one, then there's would hadrly be a reason NOT to invade (in their eyes anyway).
This is true. The fact is the tribes aren't united as one and the republic organizations have resorted to fighting themselves, leaving them open. We have had the change, the Empire and the Mandate, to invade. Why then haven't we while the Republic is weak and divided?
Popsickle:I start to lose faith.Ostos:Your faith in your Republic is melting away, Popsikle. |
Dominus1
Gallente
Trojan Ink
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 21:11:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Ostos Marek
Originally by: Agustus Caesar
If the tribes were to nolonger be united as one, then there's would hadrly be a reason NOT to invade (in their eyes anyway).
This is true. The fact is the tribes aren't united as one and the republic organizations have resorted to fighting themselves, leaving them open. We have had the change, the Empire and the Mandate, to invade. Why then haven't we while the Republic is weak and divided?
Funny as an outsider to Minmatar affairs, I do not see a house divided. I see a differing of opinions.
This is considered healthy for democracy. Every voice is heard, every voice is listened to.
Just because the basic concept of "freedom of choice" is alien to you. There are only two choices if you a citizen of the Empire. To be a tunnel-visioned Amarr or an oppressed slave.
Dominus
Causing trouble as best I can! |
Agustus Caesar
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 21:13:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Ostos Marek
Originally by: Agustus Caesar
If the tribes were to nolonger be united as one, then there's would hadrly be a reason NOT to invade (in their eyes anyway).
This is true. The fact is the tribes aren't united as one and the republic organizations have resorted to fighting themselves, leaving them open. We have had the change, the Empire and the Mandate, to invade. Why then haven't we while the Republic is weak and divided?
Because it isn't; I was just pointing out that the Ammatar/Amarr bloc has plenty of reason to attempt to destabilize the Republic; i didn't say they were succeeding.
----------------------------- |
Ostos Marek
House of Marek
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Posted - 2007.02.12 21:35:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Dominus1
Just because the basic concept of "freedom of choice" is alien to you. There are only two choices if you a citizen of the Empire. To be a tunnel-visioned Amarr or an oppressed slave.
I am not Amarr. I am Ammatar. My slaves aren't opressed, and many gain their freedom through service and become valuable contributors and citizens of the Ammatar Mandate.
There is only one FINAL choice. Believe in God or suffer Oblivion. That is really trump card of choices. It's impact outweighs all other free choices you will make. Either your soul is suffers damnation or live in the Paradise our Father has created for us.
Tunnel vision the Amarr (and the Ammatar) do not have. They have their eyes, and hearts, open and seeing clearly. It is everyone else who is blind to the doom at the end of the tunnel.
Believe in God or suffer Oblivion. This is your FINAL choice. The only choice that matters. |
Ostos Marek
House of Marek
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 21:37:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Agustus Caesar
Because it isn't; I was just pointing out that the Ammatar/Amarr bloc has plenty of reason to attempt to destabilize the Republic; i didn't say they were succeeding.
And I never mentioned anything about the Empire trying to Destabilize the Republic. We do have reason to, you are right, but the Republic is doing a fine job on it's own without the need for us to try and destabilize it.
Believe in God or suffer Oblivion. This is your FINAL choice. The only choice that matters. |
Agustus Caesar
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 21:45:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Agustus Caesar on 12/02/2007 21:43:46
Originally by: Ostos Marek
Originally by: Agustus Caesar
Because it isn't; I was just pointing out that the Ammatar/Amarr bloc has plenty of reason to attempt to destabilize the Republic; i didn't say they were succeeding.
And I never mentioned anything about the Empire trying to Destabilize the Republic. We do have reason to, you are right, but the Republic is doing a fine job on it's own without the need for us to try and destabilize it.
Now you're just not addressing the issue. Obviously the Amarr havent admited to attempting to destabalize the Republic; and if that is what you think I'm claiming then I suggest you read my post again, carefully. You also seem to be a bit behind on the current turn of events; last I checked the pro-Matari forces weren't shooting each other, even the war of words has cooled off. I admit I was frightened that the rift might widen and that the heartless Empire would sieze the oppritunity to sieze Republic systems, but despite the disagreements we are nowhere near anything resembling a civil war. But despite your abundant wishful thinking the Matari are nowhere near divided enough not to unite against an Amarrian invasion.
I hope that cleared things up as I hate having to repeat myself and elaborate on what should be obvious to the informed; but your insulting my nation demands a response.
----------------------------- |
Ostos Marek
House of Marek
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 21:55:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Agustus Caesar
I hope that cleared things up as I hate having to repeat myself and elaborate on what should be obvious to the informed; but your insulting my nation demands a response.
There are those that disagree with the Republic being as unified as you may think.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=471553
Although I understand different people have different views. And that one may not be as credible as another.
Believe in God or suffer Oblivion. This is your FINAL choice. The only choice that matters. |
Agustus Caesar
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 22:04:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Agustus Caesar on 12/02/2007 22:02:24
Originally by: Ostos Marek
Originally by: Agustus Caesar
I hope that cleared things up as I hate having to repeat myself and elaborate on what should be obvious to the informed; but your insulting my nation demands a response.
There are those that disagree with the Republic being as unified as you may think.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=471553
Although I understand different people have different views. And that one may not be as credible as another.
And in that very thread the reconsiliation I spoke of has taken place. I was never denying that there were heated words in the days following Muritor's assasination; these words gave the impression that the Matari were on verge of a civil war, these fears have since proven to be false. The Ursha' Khan still want the elections in the near future, as do most Matari; the discord you are so eager to point to is simply all in your head. The Amarrians and their Ammatar lackeys have stuck their noses in this dispute since day one; attempting to fan the flames, place doubt in our hearts, and try to create hatred that was never there. I suggest you and your ilk give up this propaganda campagin, it has failed miserably.
We Matari may not follow our leaders unquestioningly, but we are still quite capable of seeing the big picture; which is why this war of words will not escallate.
-Caesar
----------------------------- |
Tecam Hund
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.12 22:17:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Tecam Hund on 12/02/2007 22:14:34
Republic this, republic that... Government, terrorists, sides to choose. In the end all that matters is people, and they are neither the government, nor the republic.
Enslaved will seek freedom, brainwashed will seek knowledge. Amarr citizens should support themselves. No matter what empire you live in, when payback time is near, when everything you know comes tumbling down, and every norm and boundary is erased there will be nothing you can lean on but yourself.
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Dominus1
Gallente
Trojan Ink
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 22:19:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Ostos Marek
Originally by: Dominus1
Just because the basic concept of "freedom of choice" is alien to you. There are only two choices if you a citizen of the Empire. To be a tunnel-visioned Amarr or an oppressed slave.
I am not Amarr. I am Ammatar. My slaves aren't opressed, and many gain their freedom through service and become valuable contributors and citizens of the Ammatar Mandate.
There is only one FINAL choice. Believe in God or suffer Oblivion. That is really trump card of choices. It's impact outweighs all other free choices you will make. Either your soul is suffers damnation or live in the Paradise our Father has created for us.
So by Final choice. There is no choice. And no choice means no freedom.
By calling your self an Ammatar, you have surrendered everything Minmatar to becoming Ammar.
You may claim that you are dedicated to your faith. But to the casual outsider such as myself you are still Minmatar slave in service to his Ammar masters.
Dominus
Causing trouble as best I can! |
Ostos Marek
House of Marek
|
Posted - 2007.02.13 13:25:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Dominus1
So by Final choice. There is no choice. And no choice means no freedom.
By calling your self an Ammatar, you have surrendered everything Minmatar to becoming Ammar.
You may claim that you are dedicated to your faith. But to the casual outsider such as myself you are still Minmatar slave in service to his Ammar masters.
I would suggest reading up on your Ammatar history - Here.
As far as your "no choice" claim. No, there is a choice. You are always free to choose the wrong decision or the right decision. Every path in life only has 2 choices. Decisions can be made by going down multiple choice paths.
You are free to choose oblivion if you want. No one is stopping you. The Amarr/Ammatar may try to help you along the way, or speed you on your way to your choice, but it is the end choice either way.
Believe in God or suffer Oblivion. This is your FINAL choice. The only choice that matters. |
Dominus1
Gallente
Trojan Ink
|
Posted - 2007.02.13 15:50:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Ostos Marek
Originally by: Dominus1
So by Final choice. There is no choice. And no choice means no freedom.
By calling your self an Ammatar, you have surrendered everything Minmatar to becoming Ammar.
You may claim that you are dedicated to your faith. But to the casual outsider such as myself you are still Minmatar slave in service to his Ammar masters.
I would suggest reading up on your Ammatar history - Here.
As far as your "no choice" claim. No, there is a choice. You are always free to choose the wrong decision or the right decision. Every path in life only has 2 choices. Decisions can be made by going down multiple choice paths.
You are free to choose oblivion if you want. No one is stopping you. The Amarr/Ammatar may try to help you along the way, or speed you on your way to your choice, but it is the end choice either way.
I can see you don't understand. So lets use an analogy shall we. If I was to walk along your path of life and come to the fork in the road you would have three choices. You can walk down on path which could be the dictates of the Pax Amarr. The other would be your future into Oblivion. And of course you can turn around and go back the direction you came. Of course you choose the Pax Amarr, because the other two paths would be blocked off as any possible choice. Also you know should stray into either other direction you would be enslaved until you learn to go down the right road.
Now as Gallente, not restricted to this line of thinking. When I come to fork I too have choices. Like you I have three paths. But I also see something that you could never see. I can walk off the paths. I decide my own future and own fate. Eventually I would find another path. And it may suit me just me fine.
Dominus
Causing trouble as best I can! |
Ostos Marek
House of Marek
|
Posted - 2007.02.13 16:05:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Dominus1
I can see you don't understand. If I was to walk along your path of life and come to the fork in the road you would have three choices. You can walk down on path which could be the dictates of the Pax Amarr. The other would be your future into Oblivion. And of course you can turn around and go back the direction you came. Of course you choose the Pax Amarr, because the other two paths would be blocked off as any possible choice. Also you know should stray into either other direction you would be enslaved until you learn to go down the right road.
Now as Gallente, not restricted to this line of thinking. When I come to fork I too have choices. Like you I have three paths. But I also see something that you could never see. I can walk off the paths. I decide my own future and own fate. Eventually I would find another path. And it may suit me just me fine.
It seems you don't understand that you can't go back, to chose to walk back the bath you came and avoid a set of choices is still a step ahead in time that eventually ends in your death. We all die, and at that moment you only have 2 choices. You can not turn back and go where from whence you came, you either are with God or not (not being Oblivion).
I do not ask you to be loyal to the Empire, or to follow the Empire. Everything results from your final choice. Loyalty to the Empire is because of the Empire's loyalty to God. If the Empire were to ever stray from God, I would not be loyal to the Empire. The decision which influences all decisions is God or Oblivion, which do you chose?
You have the choice to make your own path. I too can walk off the path, but no matter where you walk you are constantly moved along by time. Time moves you forward. Your path, whether you walk it or have taken a detour, ends in but one of two places.
Believe in God or suffer Oblivion. This is your FINAL choice. The only choice that matters. |
Dominus1
Gallente
Trojan Ink
|
Posted - 2007.02.13 16:45:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Ostos Marek
Originally by: Dominus1
I can see you don't understand. If I was to walk along your path of life and come to the fork in the road you would have three choices. You can walk down on path which could be the dictates of the Pax Amarr. The other would be your future into Oblivion. And of course you can turn around and go back the direction you came. Of course you choose the Pax Amarr, because the other two paths would be blocked off as any possible choice. Also you know should stray into either other direction you would be enslaved until you learn to go down the right road.
Now as Gallente, not restricted to this line of thinking. When I come to fork I too have choices. Like you I have three paths. But I also see something that you could never see. I can walk off the paths. I decide my own future and own fate. Eventually I would find another path. And it may suit me just me fine.
It seems you don't understand that you can't go back, to chose to walk back the bath you came and avoid a set of choices is still a step ahead in time that eventually ends in your death. We all die, and at that moment you only have 2 choices. You can not turn back and go where from whence you came, you either are with God or not (not being Oblivion).
I do not ask you to be loyal to the Empire, or to follow the Empire. Everything results from your final choice. Loyalty to the Empire is because of the Empire's loyalty to God. If the Empire were to ever stray from God, I would not be loyal to the Empire. The decision which influences all decisions is God or Oblivion, which do you chose?
You have the choice to make your own path. I too can walk off the path, but no matter where you walk you are constantly moved along by time. Time moves you forward. Your path, whether you walk it or have taken a detour, ends in but one of two places.
Now you're getting all philosophical with me. 
Now lets examine this. It was the Amarr Empire that approved the Pax Amarr, a book of God correct?
Then it is the Amarr Empire who has defined God, not the other way around.
It is also the decree of the Empire, that in order to a citizen (and that has varying degrees of that as well) you must follow the dictates of the Pax Amarr, because if you don't you are damned to Oblivion.
Of course slaves who are non-citizens of the Empire and therefore have no rights as such. Are destined to Oblivion unless they sell out their cultural identity and commit themselves to the Pax Amarr. And if they are really good and say their devotions every night they may get lucky to become a citizen and smiled upon by God.
This only tells me that there really is no choice granted to them. For instance if a slave was to come to you and ask for his freedom of service you would not let him go because he has doomed himself. Would you kill him because there is no hope in redeeming him for God?
I seem to think that this is the reason why the Minmatar have struggled against the Amarr for so long. They are willing to die in order to be free. And for them that particular choice puts them in the good graces in what they define as their God.
I want you to know that I respect the decisions you have made in service to God and your Empire. However the truth is, that while the Amarr Empire exists in its present form. you will get no closer to your God. Under the laws of the Empire and strictures of the Pax Amarr you are just an enlightened slave and been given some of the rights that are only granted to the true Amarr. Wouldn't you want to be equal to those who are as devout to you.
I used to see you as petty slaver. Now I can only pity you.
I am under the impression that God smiles down on all races as long as they choose him regardless of the petty dogma and strictures placed upon them from their fellow man.
Kindest Regards,
Dominus
Causing trouble as best I can! |
Ostos Marek
House of Marek
|
Posted - 2007.02.13 17:09:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Dominus1
Now you're getting all philosophical with me.
Now lets examine this. It was the Amarr Empire that approved the Pax Amarr, a book of God correct?
Then it is the Amarr Empire who has defined God, not the other way around.
God exists out of Time, so god has been there before and after and during the Empire. God defined himself to man through holy men of the Empire. Though some may speculate as to the validity of their words being "the words of god", there are many scholars who have analyzed the texts and the differences in time (sometimes hundreds of years) that the words spoke from the many of phropets comepletley sound as if from one man's own words. There would be no way for any of them to get together and discuss this since the time difference. And aside from God speaking with prophets from the Ammatar and Khanid sub-cultures, this is more than enough proof of his existence.
Originally by: Dominus1
It is also the decree of the Empire, that in order to a citizen (and that has varying degrees of that as well) you must follow the dictates of the Pax Amarr, because if you don't you are damned to Oblivion.
Yes, because the Pax Amarr are the words of God. The Empire could crumble tomorrow or stop following God, but the Pax Amarr are his Holy words, and would still be valid for the Redemption of your Soul.
Originally by: Dominus1
Of course slaves who are non-citizens of the Empire and therefore have no rights as such. Are destined to Oblivion unless they sell out their cultural identity and commit themselves to the Pax Amarr. And if they are really good and say their devotions every night they may get lucky to become a citizen and smiled upon by God.
Slaves have every right to God, and to learn the faith. If they prove worthy of freedom through service to God (and the Empire because serving the Empire Serves God), then they shall be allowed to become a citizen.
Originally by: Dominus1
This only tells me that there really is no choice granted to them. For instance if a slave was to come to you and ask for his freedom of service you would not let him go because he has doomed himself. Would you kill him because there is no hope in redeeming him for God?
If they have become worthy of freedom, the temple leaders and their master (if pure of spirit) will know when that time has come and grant them their freedom and citizenship.
Originally by: Dominus1
I want you to know that I respect the decisions you have made in service to God and your Empire. However the truth is, that while the Amarr Empire exists in its present form. you will get no closer to your God. Under the laws of the Empire and strictures of the Pax Amarr you are just an enlightened slave and been given some of the rights that are only granted to the true Amarr. Wouldn't you want to be equal to those who are as devout to you.
There are many within the Empire that view their brothers in Faith as equal beings. There is always a time of disdain and racism in any culture that needs time to work out. Ammatars still suffer this, but it is smoothing out more and more each day.
I appreciate the compliment.
I am close to God, and speak with him daily. I pray for all lost souls for salvation.
Originally by: Dominus1
I used to see you as petty slaver. Now I can only pity you.
I am under the impression that God smiles down on all races as long as they choose him regardless of the petty dogma and strictures placed upon them from their fellow man.
The rules of decency, forgiveness, faith, obedience, and service have been laid forth by God, and his will has been revealed. Man must follow or perish, for he is the creator.
Believe in God or suffer Oblivion. This is your FINAL choice. The only choice that matters. |
Dominus1
Gallente
Trojan Ink
|
Posted - 2007.02.13 19:08:00 -
[34]
This doesn't change the facts.
The Pax Amarr is a document written by one man with his ideas on the perfect society. The Empire also founded by Men adopted the Pax Amarr and based their laws off of it.
If such document was the word of God. Would it not be adopted freely by every other race. Would not its principles be adopted throughout the world?
The Amarr Empire has historically conquered other worlds and either destroyed, enslaved or forcibly convert whole populations under their sway.
Your Mandate is such an empire. I can see how you could offer the Mandate to the other Minmatar as another option. However they see what I see. Ammar overseers to look over your government. Why can't your Amarr masters let you go. They have given you the word of God. You have achieved greatness through this and yet they are still there.
Doesn't the Empire trust you enough to stand on your own? Or maybe it is the fact that you are just another Minmatar slave. Sure you clean up well after given the Pax Amarr and taught to read.
If the Ammatar made a choice to walk this path. And God is your tribal leader. Then why are you in league with a flawed, human emperor.
Believe when I say that the Ammatar are destined for great things. Perhaps not as Minmatar, but certainly not as lap dogs for an old aged Empire. Until the Empire removes their advisors, diplomat (or what ever title of the day they choose to use), you are still slaves of the empire.
In my book, accepting these circimstances only proves that you are slaves to the Empire that will never be trusted with the enlightenment that you have embraced.
Causing trouble as best I can! |
Ostos Marek
House of Marek
|
Posted - 2007.02.13 19:36:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Dominus1
This doesn't change the facts.
The Pax Amarr is a document written by one man with his ideas on the perfect society. The Empire also founded by Men adopted the Pax Amarr and based their laws off of it.
Yes, but the Pax Amarria is not the Scriptures, and most of the Laws were taken from them. There has been some adjustment to society in the present based upon the Pax Amarria. Although not the scripture, the Emperor was touched by God and so were his words. I don't know why you argue this because many feel (outside the empire) the the Pax Amarria has changed the Amarr empire for the better.
Originally by: Dominus1
If such document was the word of God. Would it not be adopted freely by every other race. Would not its principles be adopted throughout the world?
No, it wouldn't. This is because all are given the chance to accept or reject the faith. Those that reject it though are sentenced to slavery to eventually come to realize their mistake or be sent to the maker for final judgement. Those that embrace the faith (like the Ammatar) do not suffer the slavery and join the empire freely. You may say this is forcing people to believe or die. I agree. You must believe or your soul will die. The only truth is his Word, and the only salvation from Oblivion is His light.
Originally by: Dominus1
The Amarr Empire has historically conquered other worlds and either destroyed, enslaved or forcibly convert whole populations under their sway.
Your Mandate is such an empire. I can see how you could offer the Mandate to the other Minmatar as another option. However they see what I see. Ammar overseers to look over your government. Why can't your Amarr masters let you go. They have given you the word of God. You have achieved greatness through this and yet they are still there.
Because the mandate is a PART of the Empire. We rule, as a people, our province known as the Ammatar Mandate, but it is a state within the Empire. The Conquering of the unfaithful is God's Will to bring all under His arm and destroy the ones who completley reject him.
Originally by: Dominus1
Doesn't the Empire trust you enough to stand on your own? Or maybe it is the fact that you are just another Minmatar slave. Sure you clean up well after given the Pax Amarr and taught to read.
Do not forget that the Pax Amarr is not the only writing our faith is based on. The Holy Scriptures are what the Amarr Faith is from.
Originally by: Dominus1
If the Ammatar made a choice to walk this path. And God is your tribal leader. Then why are you in league with a flawed, human emperor.
Why are you a flawed human being? Why am I? The only one without flaws is God. We follow God's Will, and God speaks with the Emperor, along with other Prophets. It is his will that he leads, as dicated in the Scriptures.
Originally by: Dominus1
Believe when I say that the Ammatar are destined for great things. Perhaps not as Minmatar, but certainly not as lap dogs for an old aged Empire. Until the Empire removes their advisors, diplomat (or what ever title of the day they choose to use), you are still slaves of the empire.
I argue that we are free. Free to choose just as you. We could leave the Empire, and most likely have a war where the Amarr might subjugate us. We choose not to not because of the possibility of slavery, but that everyone is in a form of slavery - one way or the other.
You are a slave to time. You must do as it says, "go forward". It gives you no choice, no freedom. Slavery is service to something higher than yourself. For those without faith it is to the faithful they serve to help to serve God. By Serving the Empire and the Mandate we serve God, for service to him will free us from the Slavery of Time and the promise of Oblivion.
Believe in God or suffer Oblivion. This is your FINAL choice. The only choice that matters. |
Ostos Marek
House of Marek
|
Posted - 2007.02.13 19:38:00 -
[36]
We have been trusted. We are enlightened. We serve God and the Empire willingly, just as any other Amarr, for salvation of our souls.
Believe in God or suffer Oblivion. This is your FINAL choice. The only choice that matters. |
Dominus1
Gallente
Trojan Ink
|
Posted - 2007.02.13 20:19:00 -
[37]
But I see you as a slave of an Empire. The Mandate isn't merely just another region of the Empire. And you are not defining yourself as an Amarr. I have seen several message where you have used Ammatar, instead. This suggests strongly that you want to be set apart from the Empire in at least one way.
I am not questioning your faith. But why identify yourselves as near separate entity of the Empire if you are not.
There is no doubt that you are strong in your beliefs. But you have to make a choice. Are you Ammatar or Amarr. You can't be both. One implies that your a traitor to the core Minmatar beliefs and the other you are a loyal citizen of your misguided empire.
Dominus
Causing trouble as best I can! |
Ostos Marek
House of Marek
|
Posted - 2007.02.13 20:39:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Dominus1
But I see you as a slave of an Empire. The Mandate isn't merely just another region of the Empire. And you are not defining yourself as an Amarr. I have seen several message where you have used Ammatar, instead. This suggests strongly that you want to be set apart from the Empire in at least one way.
I am not questioning your faith. But why identify yourselves as near separate entity of the Empire if you are not.
There is no doubt that you are strong in your beliefs. But you have to make a choice. Are you Ammatar or Amarr. You can't be both. One implies that your a traitor to the core Minmatar beliefs and the other you are a loyal citizen of your misguided empire.
Dominus
I am Ammatar. My lost Minmatar brothers and sisters betrayed our noble tribal lines when not heeding the advice of their leaders and following the Amarr way.
I call myself Ammatar because I am from the Ammatar Mandate, of the family Marek, a noble (once Minmatar) Ammatar family. Ammatar or Amarr, Gallente or Caldari, we are all still human (somes morals making them lesser human beings but still human none the less).
Ammatar is a term used to describe a type of people, just as the Caldari are still people. Ways may be different, dialects, skin tones, but all are originally human.
Some humans have lost their way, and need to be brought, nay forced, back into the light.
I call myself Ammatar because I am proud of where I have come from.
Believe in God or suffer Oblivion. This is your FINAL choice. The only choice that matters. |
Dominus1
Gallente
Trojan Ink
|
Posted - 2007.02.13 22:08:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Ostos Marek
Originally by: Dominus1
But I see you as a slave of an Empire. The Mandate isn't merely just another region of the Empire. And you are not defining yourself as an Amarr. I have seen several message where you have used Ammatar, instead. This suggests strongly that you want to be set apart from the Empire in at least one way.
I am not questioning your faith. But why identify yourselves as near separate entity of the Empire if you are not.
There is no doubt that you are strong in your beliefs. But you have to make a choice. Are you Ammatar or Amarr. You can't be both. One implies that your a traitor to the core Minmatar beliefs and the other you are a loyal citizen of your misguided empire.
Dominus
I am Ammatar. My lost Minmatar brothers and sisters betrayed our noble tribal lines when not heeding the advice of their leaders and following the Amarr way.
I call myself Ammatar because I am from the Ammatar Mandate, of the family Marek, a noble (once Minmatar) Ammatar family. Ammatar or Amarr, Gallente or Caldari, we are all still human (somes morals making them lesser human beings but still human none the less).
Ammatar is a term used to describe a type of people, just as the Caldari are still people. Ways may be different, dialects, skin tones, but all are originally human.
Some humans have lost their way, and need to be brought, nay forced, back into the light.
I call myself Ammatar because I am proud of where I have come from.
I understand. The day will come when we welcome you back into the fold.
Dominus
Causing trouble as best I can! |
Ostos Marek
House of Marek
|
Posted - 2007.02.13 22:19:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Dominus1
I understand. The day will come when we welcome you back into the fold.
God shall welcome me when my time comes.
Believe in God or suffer Oblivion. This is your FINAL choice. The only choice that matters. |
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