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Todaki Nambura Gallente	Posted - 2007.02.13 19:18:00 - [31] Originally by: Hektor Ramirez Originally by: Lena Crews I propose a 12th learning skill be added, both so we can have a nice even number of skills, and so that newer players can get a little boost in terms of skill development. It's called Cybernetics. I concur. No need to obviate implants with yet another learning skill.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2007.02.13 19:30:00 - [32] Originally by: Lena Crews We currently have 11 learning skills. Six of them are rank 1 and 5 are rank 3. I propose a 12th learning skill be added, both so we can have a nice even number of skills, and so that newer players can get a little boost in terms of skill development. The new skill would be called something like "basic skill mastery" or something else of the sort. It would be a rank 3 learning skill, but would not have a prerequisite and wouldn't cost the 4.5 million ISK that the advanced learning skillbooks run. Furthermore, I'd argue every background should get this skill at level 1 for new character creation. The skill would grant a 5% reduction to skill training time for EVERY rank 1 or rank 2 skill in the game for each level of the skill. (so at level 5, any rank 1 or rank 2 skill would take only 75% as much time to train as it would previously). The idea behind this is to do something so that new players have some feeling of being able to catch up a little bit with the 30+ million skillpoint characters out there. Newer characters would be able to build up their "basic" skills (rank 1 and 2's) much quicker than established characters were able to... and established characters would gain very little as they most likely have trained up all their low rank skills to a large degree already. What do you all think? No, reducing rank 1/2 train time by 5% per level is insanity. TBH, they need an advanced 'learning' skill, and it should give 2% to attributes per level, just like the basic skill does. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Tareen Kashaar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.02.13 19:35:00 - [33] Advanced Learning would be sweet. Or just make +7 implants available :D --- WTS: Forum Signatures, 30mil a piece. Evemail me!
Ftuoil Xelrash The Makhai	Posted - 2007.02.13 20:34:00 - [34] Advanced Learning 4TW
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2007.02.13 20:36:00 - [35] Skill != implants... Bigger implants would be nice (if I could use them) but they are not a valid replacement for skills, Implants are lost if you are podded, no way to protect them, Skills on the other hand have clones... Noob in training...
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2007.02.13 20:38:00 - [36] Originally by: Juwi Kotch The learning skill path was just recently enormously dumbed down, when the requirements for the advanced skills were reduced from lvl5 to lvl4 standard learning skills. So no need to make it even easier. I was thinking about a 12th learning skill myself, but in a completely different direction. The equivalent to the standard learning skill is missing. All other skills have an advanced brother, only poor learning skill not. So lets introduce a skill called advanced learning. It would do exactly the same like its low-profile sister, so its easy to design. But it should have as a requirement all advanced learning skills at lvl5. So only those who have dedicated lots of time in completing there learning skills would get the privilege of being able to learn this skill. Juwi Kotch BIG /SIGNED !!!
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2007.02.13 20:53:00 - [37] Edited by: Black Scorpio on 13/02/2007 20:50:51 Originally by: Anon I'muss I'd prefer a skill taht either allowed me to queue skills or to train more than one at a time. The master's degree posted somehwere above covers one... Bionic Brain (10) Allows a single pilot to train more than one skill. (doesn't allow alts to train at same time as mains) Level 1 - Allows two skills to be trained at 40% at any one time. (Or one at 100%) Level 2 - Allows two skills to be trained at 75% at any one time. (Or one at 100%) Level 3 - Allows two skills to be trained at 100% at any one time. Level 4 - Allows three skills to be trained at 75% at any one time. (Or two at 100%) Level 5 - Allows three skills to be trained at 100% at any one time. Requires: Cybernetics V, Science V & All Learning skills at at least 4 Balanced? Possibly not but after CCP have said they want to add something similar anyway I'd prefer a skill I had to train to do this than have everyone have it immediatly. I think that It should require all learning skills to level 5 too ! molding skills to fit your needs, priceless... PS: I was also not liking much the idea that people could smear me all over space when i started but I got over that quick. The game is interesting enough and you have PLENTY of things, until you get to the level of flying "TITANS" as the OP said.. so play your game and be happy..
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2007.02.13 20:53:00 - [38] Edited by: Black Scorpio on 13/02/2007 20:50:51 Originally by: Anon I'muss I'd prefer a skill taht either allowed me to queue skills or to train more than one at a time. The master's degree posted somehwere above covers one... Bionic Brain (10) Allows a single pilot to train more than one skill. (doesn't allow alts to train at same time as mains) Level 1 - Allows two skills to be trained at 40% at any one time. (Or one at 100%) Level 2 - Allows two skills to be trained at 75% at any one time. (Or one at 100%) Level 3 - Allows two skills to be trained at 100% at any one time. Level 4 - Allows three skills to be trained at 75% at any one time. (Or two at 100%) Level 5 - Allows three skills to be trained at 100% at any one time. Requires: Cybernetics V, Science V & All Learning skills at at least 4 Balanced? Possibly not but after CCP have said they want to add something similar anyway I'd prefer a skill I had to train to do this than have everyone have it immediatly. I think that It should require all learning skills to level 5 too ! molding skills to fit your needs, priceless... PS: I was also not liking much the idea that people could smear me all over space when i started but I got over that quick. The game is interesting enough and you have PLENTY of things, until you get to the level of flying "TITANS" as the OP said.. so play your game and be happy..
Vizranuh	Posted - 2007.02.13 20:55:00 - [39] I don't think I would mind the current learning skills if I were able to train more than one skill at the same time. I think if I were able to train two skills at the same time I'd be perfectly happy. --
Vizranuh	Posted - 2007.02.13 20:55:00 - [40] I don't think I would mind the current learning skills if I were able to train more than one skill at the same time. I think if I were able to train two skills at the same time I'd be perfectly happy. --
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2007.02.14 05:29:00 - [41] Originally by: Juwi Kotch The learning skill path was just recently enormously dumbed down, when the requirements for the advanced skills were reduced from lvl5 to lvl4 standard learning skills. So no need to make it even easier.[...] stress on "enormously". now you can do those 6 evil lvl5's with 4 extra points - about a week saved, i'd estimate roughly. anyway, nothing will help with catching up - those already playing just skill any new thingy aswell and the gap will remain. that said, all it does is shorten everything: a not-too-bad-command-ship in 11 months instead of 12 (assuming something like 2%/lvl, rank 3), for example. with the mass of "essential" skills that get added every content upgrade, this might not be such a bad idea.
Logi3 EVE Corporation 1631	Posted - 2007.02.14 11:12:00 - [42] Wait..... it might jsut be me, but im sure there used to be Adv Learning skill which need Learning at 5? I was shocked when i made an alt and they only needed to be trained to lvl 4 to get teh adv version! I wasted 35 days training mine to 5 ;) But im sure there used to be Advanced Learning?
Sinder Ohm Infinite Improbability Inc Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.02.14 12:02:00 - [43] I also think we need the advanced learning skill, skill rank would be 3 and bonus either 2% or 3% per lvl (I prefer 3% since it isnt a rank 1 skill anymore) requirements: learning lvl 5 (at least) and all tier 1 learning skills to lvl 5(possably) Thaughts ? Originally by: Blind Man okies so liek when u warp in on them u shod target them... and stuff k.then u FIRE ZE MISSILES
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.02.14 12:27:00 - [44] Young characters don't need to catch up. The skill system has breadth and depth. The breadth is the variety of skill trees, and the depth is the level to which you can take them. Depth is a Good Thing. Granted, new players these days are limited to a smaller proportion of content than the vets were because, say, the vets couldn't fly cruisers and BSes and X point in their training, however new players are cut off from cruisers, BSes, dreads and titans. However, because skill training is faster these days than it used to be, at point X new players have access to more content than the vets did at the same point in their development. Thus, with all the new additions, both noobs and vets benefit. Our response to the addition of more depth should not be to make it faster to get there, as this negates the addition. And anyway, many additions to the game add breadth, not depth. While there is no single Lv.60 like end-game in skilling overall, in any given specialisation there is, and it will likely take noobs less time to reach it than it took the vets. It is this fact that makes specialisation worthwhile, because someone who specialises will be better at that thing than someone with more SPs who didn't specialise in it, or can match someone who also specialised in it in the same amount of time regardless of total SPs. Removing depth by grossly increasing training speed means everyone will specialise in more things in the same amount of time, further removing variety from the game. I'm known among my friends in game for repeatedly getting **ed off by the fact that I still can't fly a BS decently almost a year in. As pointed out in a previous post, BSes are very common ships now. This is not because they have become easier to fly, in fact with the addition of things like T2 hardware the bar has been raised for what constitues a decent fit. The reason is because there are more vets now who can fly them well than there used to be. This does not mean that they should be quicker to train for however, as that would mean everyone would be flying them, they would be even more common, and the next thing people would be looking to make common would be dreads etc etc etc. It would spiral out of control. Eve is a long term game, and if you want the good stuff you have to be patient. This can be exceptionally annoying, but it is what gives the stuff you are waiting for its real value. ---------- IBTL \o/ Fix the ***** map! Privateers FTW
Pilk Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.02.14 12:31:00 - [45] Originally by: Roemy Schneider that said, all it does is shorten everything: a not-too-bad-command-ship in 11 months instead of 12 (assuming something like 2%/lvl, rank 3), for example. with the mass of "essential" skills that get added every content upgrade, this might not be such a bad idea. It only takes me a bit less than 9 months to get a brand-new character in a command ship with t2 guns, perfect cap skills, AWU IV, and skills for the Mindlink. Originally by: Roemy Schneider anyway, nothing will help with catching up - those already playing just skill any new thingy aswell and the gap will remain. No, because you're changing the scale of time. If everyone trained at a rate of c SP/minute before, now they train at kc SP/minute, where k=1.1 or whatever. So if you had a lot of time invested in old training, that time is now devalued--what took you three months now takes less. It has the effect of reducing the gap between ages of characters, not in terms of absolute SP, but in terms of the amount of time required to reach an equivalent state. At any rate, what most people clamoring for new learning skills (and trust me, you're hardly the first!) miss is that newbies are very, very effective in this game. Someone with skills at level IV is only 4% or so less effective than someone with level V on a 5%-per-level skill. That is to say, barring certain corner cases, two pilots will all appropriate skills at IV will tend to beat a single pilot with skills at V. Similarly, specialization is huge. Take a look at one of the skills websites; the people with 50m+ SP have TENS OF MILLIONS of SP invested into skills that have absolutely no bearing on their ability to fly their standard fleet-fit battleship, let alone a ceptor or cruiser. If you spec into one of those fields, you can very quickly equal or exceed the number of revelant skillpoints, which is all that matters when you're out on the field. The fact that Joe Oldplayer can fly assault frigs from three different races and has Jump Drive Calibration V doesn't help him when he's out there flying a Wolf. --P
Ugleb Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.14 12:51:00 - [46] People under rate achievement. They really. Really. Do. You want a carrier in 6 months? Great you got it. Now what? You got a titan? Good for you. You 'win' EVE you may now quit and go skill up to lvl 70 in WoW then move on to EQ2 or whatever. EVE is not about maxing out your character in the shoirtest possible time, it's about evolving your character over time. When you finally hit that milestone of your first cruiser/BS/capital ship its supposed to mean something. You worked hard for it it, your patience is rewarded. If it was quick then you lose the sense of achievement. I don't think that thee is a problem with the training system. There was a few months ago and the system was revamped. Since EVE started alot of stuff has been added along with alot of skills. I don't mean they added dreads so now you have to train Capital Projectiles, I'm talking about new tanking skills or missile skills. Things that everyone needs. There was weeks worth of bare minimum training needed just to fit a frig properly. So they overhauled character creation to give you more of the basics and dropped learning skill requirements. I started with less SP than you, no advanced training skills for months and when they did come out the reqs were higher. I had to slog through it, you don't. This is a good thing. But it also means that you have already gone a significant way towards 'catching up' and you only only just created your character. You even start with alot more ISK to buy more skills, I had to mine/mission run to get the isk to get the books in the first place, you're catching up there too. But that's history. EVE does not need another learning skill, we don't need another stat boost. We do not need to train capital ship lvl 5 faster. The top end equpment is meant to be extremely difficult to reach. I am in no danger of flying a titan any time soon, maybe not even within the year even if I could raise the ISK. That's a good thing, it means a year from now I will still have something to aim for, another goal to achieve. And when I get there it will be extremely rewarding because I'll have had to work for it! And that's my point. The easier it is for you to 'catch up' the less rewarding and significant it will have been to you getting there. EVE is designed for the long term, its made so that a year from now you will still be achieving and progressing whereas you could have maxed out 3 WoW characters in the same amount of time. Ultimtely, the problem is that new players suffer from an inferiority complex. They see a carrier and think they 'have' to be flying one. If we're all in carriers who do we assign our fighters to? Top end ships are meant to be rare. In the 0.0 battle with 14 BS popping as if they were nothing, in the scope of the war they may be. But ask the 14 pilots who lost their ships if they think it didn't hurt. Some of them will be found in belts trying to undo the damage to their wallets. Also, 80% or more of your combat skills can be trained in the frst 6 months. In that 6 months you rapidly close the gap on me and I've been playing for 2 and a half years. With good tactics and a decent setup you stand a decent chance of killing me in a similar sized ship. If we met in assault frigs you may be surprised. We held a t1 cruiser tournament a few months back in my alliance, I beat a character over 6 months my senior and was beaten by a character less than half my age. The skill gap is 90% perception.
Ralara Caldari	Posted - 2007.02.14 13:21:00 - [47] I thought it was Charisma? Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes - Devil ([email protected])
Admai Sket	Posted - 2007.02.14 13:29:00 - [48] Originally by: prsr just something that shows CCP appreciates the people who are paying close to 4 years now. "Brand new customers onl-eeeeee" (UK TV viewers will get this) I got my sig snipped again. Can someone make me a new one?
Mashie Saldana Minmatar HOW Industries	Posted - 2007.02.14 14:29:00 - [49] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia TBH, they need an advanced 'learning' skill, and it should give 2% to attributes per level, just like the basic skill does. /signed And to make it a bit more fun add a requirement of all learning skills at lvl5, give it a price tag of 45mill and rank 6. Finally a good reason to get all the advanced skills up to lvl 5. After all a 10% boost on top of the current learning speed should be painful to get.
MrRookie Caldari Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2007.02.14 14:47:00 - [50] Advanced Learning would be fine by me "1% bonus per level to all attributes resulting in a overall faster skill training time." Another 1% or 2% to all atributes sig nurfed
Chewan Mesa Beagle Corp	Posted - 2007.02.14 14:57:00 - [51] Edited by: Chewan Mesa on 14/02/2007 14:54:01 Originally by: Lena Crews In WoW, Everquest or even back in the original MMORPG (Ultima Online) there was a limit in terms of skill development for a PC. A player knew that if they just reached 700 skill points or levely 70 or whatever that they'd be on an equal playing field with players who started years before. That doesn't exist in Eve. I agree with the points other players made, but I'd like to stress this one. You say what I quoted as if its a bad tihng, or EVE should have it, or WoW etc are better games because they have this. You're simply wrong, EVE is different, and should remain that way. This is one of the great things where EVE doesnt get boring once you reach lvl 70 and can wtfbbq everyone below your level, and when there is nothing new to do, there always is in EVE.
Sikozu Prioris	Posted - 2007.02.14 15:05:00 - [52] OMG nearly all of you missed the entire point of the OP This is not to make the established high sp characters even further ahead of the newer ones by introducing something that high sp players will imediatly benefit from and that new players wont be able to get without months of training/isk. Its to give newer players a chance to catch up on sp a bit without over powering it, ie with the benefit to only rank 1 or maybe 2 skills, high sp chars wont benefit since they'll have them all trained, while new players will experience a benefit to start with, which will die out after a while. The boost to starting sp was great for new players, but what is effectivly a months free training to someone with maybe a year or two more sp than you. Just my thoughts anyway. People Shouldn't Be Afraid of Their Governments Governments Should Be Afraid of Their People
Ugleb Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.14 16:36:00 - [53] Originally by: Sikozu Prioris OMG nearly all of you missed the entire point of the OP This is not to make the established high sp characters even further ahead of the newer ones by introducing something that high sp players will imediatly benefit from and that new players wont be able to get without months of training/isk. Its to give newer players a chance to catch up on sp a bit without over powering it, ie with the benefit to only rank 1 or maybe 2 skills, high sp chars wont benefit since they'll have them all trained, while new players will experience a benefit to start with, which will die out after a while. The boost to starting sp was great for new players, but what is effectivly a months free training to someone with maybe a year or two more sp than you. Just my thoughts anyway. No I got it, I just don't think it's right. New players don't have to 'catch up' they should be developing gradually and because its a long process once they do get their first cruiser it actually means something. The easier it is the less it matters. EVE is not a 6 months and move on game, it's designed to be played for years. Therefore development takes time. The boost to new characters was designed to cut out the sheer grind that had developed as the game has changed that made the first month of training an absolute nightmare. I started an alt a few months before the overhaul, trying to fit even a basic setup was just painful. So now you don't have to go through that, and its easier to get through the learning skills. Making it even easier is really not necessary. You start as an underdog in a hostile world, not as a junior hero of the land. I'm not a vet who wants to maintain my head start, I genuinely believe that making the first stages faster/easier would harm the experience. And dont think that all the training hardship doesn't exist after 2 or 3 years, I grind my teeth at having to spend a month or more to train a single skill level, some of which doesn't actually get me anything other than to allow me to train the next skill book! In the month I've been doiung that one level you've probably trained frigate level 1-5. Now that's catching up!
Kerushi Caldari AeroSpace Engineering	Posted - 2007.02.14 16:41:00 - [54] make it require basic 3 advanced 3 price: 25m isk sink but accesible for more pplz 3x cap rig I hyperion for sale
Soraya Silvermoon Union Of Xtreme Military The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.02.14 16:55:00 - [55] NO MORE LEARNING SKILLS!!! Their a time sink and have absolutly no use at all. Only positive thing about em is that they keep ppl from training several chrs on their accounts. If you think the time decrease is a bonus then your stupid because without the learning skills the ranks on the skills would have been lower. Their just a waste of time since you have to train em or regret later. This is what learning skills do: They take the time you need to train a skill from the back and put it in front. This hurts new players particulary since they got to train learning skills for 3 months before they can start training sensible stuff and enjoy the game. option A: Remove learning skills from game and give everyone +10 attributes. option B: If you really want to help new players have em start with all the basic learning skills at 5.
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2007.02.14 16:57:00 - [56] I say get rid of all learning skills and let implants be the deciding factor. Give us all +5 and a skillpoint/ isk reimbursement for those that did train them (yes I've trained the basics to 5 and the advanceds to 4) just my 2 isk. Why put in a boooring grind I thought you wanted new players Snip Not appropriate, email [email protected] with a link to the sig for a reason why - hutch
Bryg Philomena Green Lantern Corps	Posted - 2007.02.14 17:22:00 - [57] I spent a year playing now, and I enjoyed it, going from frig to cruiser to BC to BS... it gave me experience, joy, and excitement (with a little fear) flying a new ship for the first time. I got the satisfaction of WORKING for my ships. In no way should the n00bs get a boost into BS in 2 weeks. It's pointless to get them into topof the line ships sooner. 1) They lack experience. Not the SP kind, but the go-out-and-die kind. If it's an alt, well you could have bought a better char. 2) At a month, where do they have the isk to buy and outfit a BS? I am a year old, and can barely afford a BS (I'm found in belts a lot) 3) This game is designed for the TIME spent on the game. CCP is a business. They WANT us subscribed for as long as possible. (Even better for CCP if we are paying and not logged in.) 4) Fleets, while doing damage, ARE NOT THE SOLE POINT OF THE GAME!!!!! A small gang in ceptors or frigs or cruisers, outfitted right, can pop a BS) Bigger isn't always better. 5) When did they make the advanced learning skills easier?? I had to train all my teir 1 learning skills to 5 before. The new players ALREADY HAVE BEEN GIVEN A BOOST!!!! Stop trying to nerf the vets. IMO this sounds like another "OMG, so-and-so popped me because they were better, NERF THEM!!!1!!1!" http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=465618
VeNT Minmatar Freelancer Union Unaffiliated	Posted - 2007.02.14 17:26:00 - [58] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 13/02/2007 14:50:19 Originally by: Lena Crews We currently have 11 learning skills. Six of them are rank 1 and 5 are rank 3. I propose a 12th learning skill be added, both so we can have a nice even number of skills, and so that newer players can get a little boost in terms of skill development. The new skill would be called something like "basic skill mastery" or something else of the sort. It would be a rank 3 learning skill, but would not have a prerequisite and wouldn't cost the 4.5 million ISK that the advanced learning skillbooks run. Furthermore, I'd argue every background should get this skill at level 1 for new character creation. The skill would grant a 5% reduction to skill training time for EVERY rank 1 or rank 2 skill in the game for each level of the skill. (so at level 5, any rank 1 or rank 2 skill would take only 75% as much time to train as it would previously). The idea behind this is to do something so that new players have some feeling of being able to catch up a little bit with the 30+ million skillpoint characters out there. Newer characters would be able to build up their "basic" skills (rank 1 and 2's) much quicker than established characters were able to... and established characters would gain very little as they most likely have trained up all their low rank skills to a large degree already. What do you all think? I agree that there should be a new learning skill, but not the one you propose. The new skill should be the advanced skill to the allready exsisting Learning skill. So, what we should have is Advanced Learning, not basic skill mastery. And ofcource the new skill should be a rank 3, as the same as the other advanced learning skills :) I like this idea, -------------------- Selena 001 > has VeNT left system? its gone really quiet!
Mashie Saldana Minmatar HOW Industries	Posted - 2007.02.14 17:28:00 - [59] Originally by: Sikozu Prioris OMG nearly all of you missed the entire point of the OP This is not to make the established high sp characters even further ahead of the newer ones by introducing something that high sp players will imediatly benefit from and that new players wont be able to get without months of training/isk. Its to give newer players a chance to catch up on sp a bit without over powering it, ie with the benefit to only rank 1 or maybe 2 skills, high sp chars wont benefit since they'll have them all trained, while new players will experience a benefit to start with, which will die out after a while. The boost to starting sp was great for new players, but what is effectivly a months free training to someone with maybe a year or two more sp than you. Just my thoughts anyway. Actually with the new character creation process about one month worth of skills are given for free and by changing the prerequisites for adv learning skills another month was removed there as well. So all in all an new character will be able to start the fun stuff two months earlier than any previous player. Not that I complain, it is great that you can make research alts with lab operation V. The thing is, after the recent changes the new characters have more than enough help to become good EVE citizens.
OneSock	Posted - 2007.02.14 17:40:00 - [60] I think it's fine as it is. The only new skill I'd like to see is one that allows you to queue skills. Lv1. allows queue of rank 1 skills Lv2. allows queue of rank 2 skills Lv3. allows queue of rank 3 skills etc.

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